Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[Blue Moon]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

They didn't leave suddenly.  It was announced and documented. When Louis said he was on empty, they tried to come up with some funds by calling for donations and reaching out to other industry folk, but that failed so they left.  The donations they recieved were a small fraction of what was needed to continue searching offshore Aruba.  The funds that were received by TES designated to the search effort after the call for donations were returned to the people who donated the monies.  They couldn't afford to just suspend the search while funds were trickling in. It cost almost as much to sit by the dock as it cost to keep going.  The search cost 10s of thousands per day. I don't think the donations even amounted to $10K, (- half a day of searching perhaps) despite the outpouring of support by so many who are close to the case.

I trust Tim Miller to use my  money I donated for his own needs in whatever search he does but I did not receive my money back.  It wasn't much but I trust TES to do what they want with it.

[Lala'sMom]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

[can]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers lastly and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definitely cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact location as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...

this is confusing to me...what could it have been? ...  are you saying that after ALE dove and took away the contents of the cage that item that appeared to be skull and did not appear to be a skull...was suspect?

I think it was a series of events..all talked about here, that happened after..and some not discussed here..like how long it took the FBI to get the evidence, that caused Kyle to start analysing everything. But his focus has been more on the material than the skull..so I don't think they believed it was a skull even after all the suspicious activity that happened after. But I will ask and post after I am sure. Right now, that is just my guess based on what we have discussed so far.

Thanks.  So the appears to be a skull/appears Not to be a skull is your guess and not information you learned to pass on to the forum?

Since the Persistence expected ALE to bring the contents of their dive to the Persistence and instead ALE took off with the evidence I would think that would have raised a huge red flag???

[ldstlou]

I have to take a break and put my Monkey to bed. I will come back after. thanks for being so patient with me, and so kind in listening to me w/out attacking.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers lastly and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definitely cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact location as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...

this is confusing to me...what could it have been? ...  are you saying that after ALE dove and took away the contents of the cage that item that appeared to be skull and did not appear to be a skull...was suspect?

I think it was a series of events..all talked about here, that happened after..and some not discussed here..like how long it took the FBI to get the evidence, that caused Kyle to start analysing everything. But his focus has been more on the material than the skull..so I don't think they believed it was a skull even after all the suspicious activity that happened after. But I will ask and post after I am sure. Right now, that is just my guess based on what we have discussed so far.

Thanks.  So the appears to be a skull/appears Not to be a skull is your guess and not information you learned to pass on to the forum?

Since the Persistence expected ALE to bring the contents of their dive to the Persistence and instead ALE took off with the evidence I would think that would have raised a huge red flag???

it did alert them but not considerably until some of the other events unfolded. And remember, it didn't alert all of the members, but as you can tell by Kyle's posts in the forum, he was disturbed by what happened then and after.

[Tamikosmom]

So, I checked the membership rolls, Caps joined DEC 20, 2007.
Perfect timing. Has made > 1000 posts. Can anyone think of one fact CAPS dispensed ?
Kyle said that he felt CAPS was one step away from Dirty Hand. Maybe it's old Dirty Hand himself.
ps I think Kyle had misgivings but he did nothing wrong personally. I also think there is a good likelyhood that Natalee was in that cage and CAPS was here for a purpose.  IMO

Kat ... I agree.  i I firmly believe that there is a connect between the Persistence search effort and ...the emergence of CAPS on the SM Natalee threads.

Very early on ... I had serious misgivings regarding aspects of the Persistence search effort ... the inconsistencies in some of Kyle's posts ... the ALE/John Silvetti connection as well as ... CAPS presence on the forum ... a presence that appeared to distract from the search efforts ... a presence that appears to be a smokescreen meant to distract from the truth and ... provide misinformation.

However ... the search effort was upheld ... Kyle's inconsistencies were justified and ... CAPS cryptic posts were consider the catalyst that would reveal the truth encompassing the Natalee Holloway case.  Heaven help me if I challenged his research.

Kat ... I was not just in the minority ... I was alone.

I became so discourage.  My heart never left the Natalee Holloway case but ... at the beginning of July ... I made the decision to take a sabatical from the forum.  It was becoming too frustrating. 

Janet

[texasmom]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

They didn't leave suddenly.  It was announced and documented. When Louis said he was on empty, they tried to come up with some funds by calling for donations and reaching out to other industry folk, but that failed so they left.  The donations they recieved were a small fraction of what was needed to continue searching offshore Aruba.  The funds that were received by TES designated to the search effort after the call for donations were returned to the people who donated the monies.  They couldn't afford to just suspend the search while funds were trickling in. It cost almost as much to sit by the dock as it cost to keep going.  The search cost 10s of thousands per day. I don't think the donations even amounted to $10K, (- half a day of searching perhaps) despite the outpouring of support by so many who are close to the case.

I trust Tim Miller to use my  money I donated for his own needs in whatever search he does but I did not receive my money back.  It wasn't much but I trust TES to do what they want with it.

I agree with you BlueMoon, and I didn't receive my donation back either.  I've never heard that anyone had a donation returned. 

[Lifesong]

So...

Kermit says that the FBI did not have the footage of the dive on Jan 7th that Kyle surreptiously took with the ROV camera.

Ldstlou says that the FBI did have that footage, it was sent shortly after the dive by someone else on the Persistence team, therefore Kyle didn't need to send it to the FBI.

I don't know who is telling the truth, but they can't both be true.  Quite possibly its just a misunderstanding and no one is lying.

Ldstlou - thank you so much for coming back and having this amicable conversation with us. 

I need to say this to those who are concerned for Kyle: 
I'm completely disappointed that the Persistence team or their leadership allowed ALE to get the contents of the trap.  Right or wrong, I did expect better of them.  That said, not a single person on that team is responsible for what happened to Natalee on the island of Aruba.  We know who the real culprits are and they were not a part of the ocean search.  This is a side issue, we should all keep that in mind.

Peace to all monkeys. 

[snoopy]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

I'm not discounting what CAPS has said about the witness, and I would never call Tim Miller a liar.  Tim has my full support.  But if I have a question about any person I'll ask it.

[Tamikosmom]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

 

[Kat_Gram]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

OK Only because it's you. See, I was away from this for quite few months. I bailed because of family illness sometime in March of 2008. I was here & BFN  and at OE's place during the height of the search. I was here when Caps first showed up and then just dismissed the person as another Aruban bs-er. We have had so many ppl who claim to know so much who knew nothing. Well, maybe they did, but here it is Decemebr of 2008 and my first post anywhere regarding this was Aug of 2005. And this is wearing thin for me.   

[snoopy]

So...

Kermit says that the FBI did not have the footage of the dive on Jan 7th that Kyle surreptiously took with the ROV camera.

Ldstlou says that the FBI did have that footage, it was sent shortly after the dive by someone else on the Persistence team, therefore Kyle didn't need to send it to the FBI.  That's what I'm hearing, and it has come straight from family member to ldstlou.
I don't know who is telling the truth, but they can't both be true.  Quite possibly its just a misunderstanding and no one is lying.  That's what I am hoping for.  And for now that's what I'm thinking.
Ldstlou - thank you so much for coming back and having this amicable conversation with us. 

I need to say this to those who are concerned for Kyle: 
I'm completely disappointed that the Persistence team or their leadership allowed ALE to get the contents of the trap.  Right or wrong, I did expect better of them.  That said, not a single person on that team is responsible for what happened to Natalee on the island of Aruba.  We know who the real culprits are and they were not a part of the ocean search.  This is a side issue, we should all keep that in mind.  Excellent reminder
Peace to all monkeys. 

My thoughts in red.  Hope I did that right. lol

[Tamikosmom]

I don't feel right about answering this one because I have never spoken to Tim or Dave. But the visual showed it was not a skull. There was still the material to collect and test though, which is what they were expecting to find when they began the search. Does that make sense?

Lou ... what is this visual that you are referring to?  I concedes that it is speculation regarding what appears to be a skull in the ROV images but ... there is definite something there to base speculation on.

 

Thank you.

Janet

+++++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #275 on: December 05, 2008, 07:05:44 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568246#msg568246
 
 
Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #408 on: November 24, 2008, 03:59:08 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555618#msg555618
 
 
Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #410 on: November 24, 2008, 04:01:55 PM »
Photos given to the FBI sent to Dave and Robin posted on the internet are NOT the
photos posted above.  These were not given to the FBI until recently.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555621#msg555621
 
 
johan555
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #914 on: Today at 10:08:36 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569513#msg569513
 
 
johan555
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #865 on: Today at 09:15:06 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569453#msg569453
 
 
johan555
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #848 on: Today at 08:57:23 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569433#msg569433
 
 
johan555
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #839 on: Today at 08:40:41 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569420#msg569420
 
 
johan555
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #795 on: Today at 07:12:20 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569357#msg569357
 
 
johan555
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
 « Reply #493 on: December 05, 2008, 11:26:56 PM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568630#msg568630

[Lala'sMom]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

 

Yes, she has...read her posts.  Klaas has said she believes him to be a good person.  She knows all there is to know about Caps.  I am so sick of what is happening to some of the good people that have done nice things for the family.  It's become more than I can stand to sit by and watch this happen.  Caps is well known by Dave too, so before we jump onto him everyone should take a step back and think if that is what you really want to do.  I know Caps name and I know what he's all about and it's not about hiding anything.  I can assure you that Mos was not happy about this new witness...the one Caps brought to him...it upset his apple cart and when Tim made arrangements for the witness to come to Texas that too got under Mos skin.  Tim told this story on Dana one night so don't anyone think I am making this up...I am not.  Jossy told his name on Greta last week...so he's a real breathing person.  I just think bashing Caps because he appears to be part of some conspiracy to cover up is beyond the pale.  I am done with this, but I wanted to stand up for Caps because there have been times I should have taken up for others that have left here and I didn't.  I won't leave this time without having my say about Caps.  He is one of the good guys here.   Attack me if you want, but leave Caps alone in this...he was not involved in any of the Persistence stuff.

[snoopy]

Janet I'm not ldstlou but I think what she is referring to is the dive where Tim Trahan gives the thumbs down.

[Lala'sMom]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

OK Only because it's you. See, I was away from this for quite few months. I bailed because of family illness sometime in March of 2008. I was here & BFN  and at OE's place during the height of the search. I was here when Caps first showed up and then just dismissed the person as another Aruban bs-er. We have had so many ppl who claim to know so much who knew nothing. Well, maybe they did, but here it is Decemebr of 2008 and my first post anywhere regarding this was Aug of 2005. And this is wearing thin for me.   

I am sorry that it sounded like I was attacking you...I really wasn't.  I think you set me off and I did not make myself clear.  Not my intention...just wanted people to understand that Caps is one of the good guys.   Seems so many of our good guys have left us for greener pastures. I guess I am just frustrated. 

[Tamikosmom]

So...

Kermit says that the FBI did not have the footage of the dive on Jan 7th that Kyle surreptiously took with the ROV camera.

Ldstlou says that the FBI did have that footage, it was sent shortly after the dive by someone else on the Persistence team, therefore Kyle didn't need to send it to the FBI.

I don't know who is telling the truth, but they can't both be true.  Quite possibly its just a misunderstanding and no one is lying.

Ldstlou - thank you so much for coming back and having this amicable conversation with us. 

I need to say this to those who are concerned for Kyle: 
I'm completely disappointed that the Persistence team or their leadership allowed ALE to get the contents of the trap.  Right or wrong, I did expect better of them.  That said, not a single person on that team is responsible for what happened to Natalee on the island of Aruba.  We know who the real culprits are and they were not a part of the ocean search.  This is a side issue, we should all keep that in mind.

Peace to all monkeys. 

If Lou is correct ... I cannot only assume that both Kyle and Kermit must be lying.

Janet

++++++++

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #408 on: November 24, 2008, 03:59:08 PM »

ROV Images:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555618#msg555618


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #410 on: November 24, 2008, 04:01:55 PM »

Photos given to the FBI sent to Dave and Robin posted on the internet are NOT the
photos posted above.  These were not given to the FBI until recently.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555621#msg555621


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120

[Lifesong]

So...

Kermit says that the FBI did not have the footage of the dive on Jan 7th that Kyle surreptiously took with the ROV camera.

Ldstlou says that the FBI did have that footage, it was sent shortly after the dive by someone else on the Persistence team, therefore Kyle didn't need to send it to the FBI.

I don't know who is telling the truth, but they can't both be true.  Quite possibly its just a misunderstanding and no one is lying.

Ldstlou - thank you so much for coming back and having this amicable conversation with us. 

I need to say this to those who are concerned for Kyle: 
I'm completely disappointed that the Persistence team or their leadership allowed ALE to get the contents of the trap.  Right or wrong, I did expect better of them.  That said, not a single person on that team is responsible for what happened to Natalee on the island of Aruba.  We know who the real culprits are and they were not a part of the ocean search.  This is a side issue, we should all keep that in mind.

Peace to all monkeys. 

If Lou is correct ... I cannot only assume that both Kyle and Kermit must be lying.

Janet

++++++++

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #408 on: November 24, 2008, 03:59:08 PM »

ROV Images:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555618#msg555618


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #410 on: November 24, 2008, 04:01:55 PM »

Photos given to the FBI sent to Dave and Robin posted on the internet are NOT the
photos posted above.  These were not given to the FBI until recently.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555621#msg555621


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120

God bless you, Janet!  I looked for that first quote and couldn't find it.  Was actually hoping you'd respond with the backup, you're so good with the documentation!  We should stop everyday and tell you how lucky we are to have you here.  I mean that.

Ldstlou, can you clear this up?  How do you know the FBI had the footage?  Who on the Persistence team sent it to them shortly after the dive?  Whose word precisely are we taking on this?

[snoopy]

I am going to assume for the time being that Kermit was mistaken that the FBI only recently received the additional photos/video.

I am going to assume that for the time being that Kyle was only speaking for himself as to what had been sent to the family.  What I am seeing is that Kyle had a specific job and nothing more.


Justice is coming

[ldstlou]

So...

Kermit says that the FBI did not have the footage of the dive on Jan 7th that Kyle surreptiously took with the ROV camera.

Ldstlou says that the FBI did have that footage, it was sent shortly after the dive by someone else on the Persistence team, therefore Kyle didn't need to send it to the FBI.

I don't know who is telling the truth, but they can't both be true.  Quite possibly its just a misunderstanding and no one is lying.

Ldstlou - thank you so much for coming back and having this amicable conversation with us. 

I need to say this to those who are concerned for Kyle: 
I'm completely disappointed that the Persistence team or their leadership allowed ALE to get the contents of the trap.  Right or wrong, I did expect better of them.  That said, not a single person on that team is responsible for what happened to Natalee on the island of Aruba.  We know who the real culprits are and they were not a part of the ocean search.  This is a side issue, we should all keep that in mind.

Peace to all monkeys. 

thank you Lifesong