Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[Kermit]

Idstlou stated:
" It was not Kyles responsibility to hand off the videos to the FBI and family, but they were given to the FBI and family immediately by other members of the Persistence"


Klye stated: "I did not give the information to the FBI and I'm unaware of anyone relaying the possibility to them.[/u]

Klye stated: "I havn't spoken to Beth and don't plan to personally."

[Kermit]

#592 on: Today at 08:35:51 PM  Idstlou said:
The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.
 

Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM kyle said:
"The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


ERROR in your information Idstlou

If they did not expect to find any bones why would they have a thumbs-up signal if he saw skeleton remains?

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening
 
The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee



#622 on: Today at 09:31:20 PM   ldstlou
 have to get a firm statement on this. Here is what I do know. Hope this helps.
Members of Quantico were on the Persistence, they were there when the dive was done on the 30th and actually told a member of Dateline it was not Natalee and they could use the footage in the show. Members of the Persistence did not learn this until later and called Dateline and got them to NOT air the footage. The FBI told Dateline they could not air the full footage of the case because it was under investigation. Dateline had to take the additional footage out of their show, so I know they had the footage based on this info
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.620
 
According to Kyle that was the FBI they gave him permission
 
#732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
 Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?
 
#79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

Thanx Kermit.Who was the chief contact on the Persistence in regards to the Arubans if you know??

John Silvetti and Tim Tehran were the project leads.

[snoopy]

Ok, I've been reviewing the posts and it appears nothing has changed or been cleared up at all.

Kermit says the Jan. 7th footage was only recently turned over to the FBI and the family.

Regarding the same Jan. 7th footage, all ldstlou categorically stated was that she didn't know when it was turned over to the FBI and neither did Kyle, but now the FBI does have it and the family, Jug specifically, is aware of it.

This means Kermit was telling the truth and Kyle wasn't the one who turned over the footage and there's no reason to believe it was "turned over in a timely fashion by another member of the Persistence team" - that was the Dec. 30th footage.

Someone please set me straight if I've got it wrong.

Not much from what i understand!This was the worst Dog and pony show i've seen.People need to quit speaking for Kyle.He's grown.come discuss this where people will ask tough questions in order to get to the truth!He chose not to discuss this with Kermit.Why?????I'm standing with the FROG until Kyle can sway me any other way.Have a feeling that won't happen..Hope i'm wrong.Let's stay focused with what we know.Back to how things transpired on the Persistence,the chain of command,who was in charge on the Persistence,protocal,who chose when to dive and why,who was the chief contact on the persistence in regards to the Arubans,etc,etc,etc....

I called ldstlou for one reason and one reason only this evening.  I wanted to ask her a specific question.  And that was did Jug and the family know about the photos that Kermit posted here this past week in a timely manner.  She ask him and his reply was that yes they had known about them for some time.

I then told her that she needed to come back here and lay it out there.  She did.

I also voiced my concerns about some of the things Kyle was telling others but yet was contridicting himself on this forum.

I still ahve some reservations about Kyle.  It is possible that some the things we are being told has been taken out of text.

I have no reason to not believe Kermit.  He / she has made a compelling argument.

But I do know that the family has said that they have known about the pictures for some time.

This does not mean that someone is lieing blah blah blah.

Yes Kyle should come back here and explain himself, and I told lsdtlou to tell him that.

So I sure hope you weren't meaning I was involved in a dog and pony show.  I just want the freakin truth.

From what i gather frommbeing on here there's not to many people that don't think that it was a great possibilty that Natalee was in that cage.For no one on the Persistence to take samples of the contents of that cage is horrific in my opinion!

I believe with all my heart that she was in  that trap.

[caesu]

.. As for the Dutch being embarassed, well they knew years ago that there were inappropriate calls and conversations between Jan and Paulus. Nothing happened then and nothing will happen now. I read about these convos here and I think it was Karin Janssen who mentioned it in a public fashion. Wasn't that why Dompig replaced Jan ? So, they dealt with the problem in 2005. He was going to retire, he then wanted to stay on and they didn't let him. Case closed. All's well for all of those bastards.   

yes course they should have been embarrassed from the beginning.
after all Joran/Paul vdS, Jan van Straten, Karin Jansen, Mos, and most (or all?) of the Judges are all Dutch.
and this Van Deutekom guy is also Dutch. but i am still unsure about his role.

but the embarrassment is constantly building. at one point it will reach a point when the Dutch can't stand idle any longer.

Jan van der Straten is going to respond to Rudy Croes. Rudy will in turn respond.
Joran will do something stupid again in the coming weeks or months.
Peter R. de Vries will have a new broadcast next year or maybe even his last broadcast of the year this month.
Brinkman will not sit quiet. in January he goes on another Parliamentary Delegation to visit Aruba/Antilles.

also next year there are elections on Aruba.
so for sure both AVP and MEP will accuse eachother of corruption and they may spill some beans.
the MEP is calling the AVP: Aruba Vernietigings Partij = Party for the Destruction of Aruba.
and the campaign only started this week. 9 months of campaigning to go.
and the date set for the disassembling of the Antilles 1st January 2010. but this date might be postponed again, that depends on how it goes the coming weeks with the Round Table Conference.

so the embarrassment will build. at one point the sh*t is going to hit the fan.

with this political tension and embarrassment building there are two fictional scenario's that sometimes cross my mind:

- i wouldn't be too surprised if Joran is found dead one day in some seedy hotel in Pattaya, Thailand.
it can easily blamed on suicide or some drugs/prostitute incident.
what is going to happen then? case closed?
because Joran helped to reignite the case many times with his stupid behaviour.

- what if The Netherlands forces Aruba to go fully independent, maybe by demanding Dutch judicial authority that Aruba won't accept. Aruba can be independent within at 6 months after a referendum.
in that case there is never going to be justice.
and the Dutch can say: good riddance - no our problem anymore.
but i doubt this is going to happen because of the geopolitical implications (Chávez, USA).

[snoopy]

Snoopy,
I can't speak for anyone else but I think you did your best to get to the truth.  I think that's a good thing.  However, no one can ever speak for someone better than that person can speak for themself in my opinion.  That's my only problem with ldstlou's attempts tonight. 

If Kyle has nothing to hide, he should come here and speak for himself.

It's time for all the truth to come out, good or bad. 

It's all about Justice for Natalee, nothing else.

Absolutely and I told her to tell him that.

And for the record I don't belong to any private forum.   

[texasmom]

For real, texasmom? Is it really him?? 

I think it is!!!!!!

Just in time for Christmas!!!!  

CBB's Greatest Hits!

[Keepthefaith]

I think what we experienced tonight was a hijacking of sorts.
Friends of Kyle took over the board to offer soft, simple, mis
information to defend Kyle.  Maybe they are confused.
I think Kyle may be a little afraid of going to jail for the things
he has done, but why send women to defend him.  Why can't he
come himself?

Kyle is no friend to me.  I was only wanting to know if the family has been kept in the loop regarding the pictures and in a timely manner.  I told ldstlou that I believed what Jug has said, but had concerns about Kyle.  I do no ones bidding for them.

I understand Snoopy.Why defend someone who won't defend themselves so to speak.I keep saying i would love to be wrong but Kermit is giving us words!If there outta context he'll have to bring his emails and or posts over and we'll see everything..Kyle's got nothing to lose does he???Or does he??I for one don't know.I just wanna hear it from the horses mouth!

You ever play the game where the teachers line up around twenty kids in a chain-like line then tell the kid a story and let them tell it all the way down the chain.The story is completely different.I don't want to hear it from someone else.Kyle(OE)We're here to listen to what ya have to say transpired on,as well as off the Persistence after the search.Please change are minds.....

[texasmom]

Snoopy,
I can't speak for anyone else but I think you did your best to get to the truth.  I think that's a good thing.  However, no one can ever speak for someone better than that person can speak for themself in my opinion.  That's my only problem with ldstlou's attempts tonight. 

If Kyle has nothing to hide, he should come here and speak for himself.

It's time for all the truth to come out, good or bad. 

It's all about Justice for Natalee, nothing else.

Absolutely and I told her to tell him that.

And for the record I don't belong to any private forum.   

For the record, me either!   

[klaasend]

I don't belong to any private forums either.   

[Anna]

Is Dateline considered a news source?  And as such a member of our free press?  Both the LA Times and the NY Times have published blatantly classified information against the interest of national security and in spite of the protests of the entire intelligence community.

I just wonder how the FBI was able to force Dateline not to show what they had without violation of the Constitutional right of freedom of the press.  They can ask but they sure can't force a legit news source to do anything.

[Keepthefaith]

Ok, I've been reviewing the posts and it appears nothing has changed or been cleared up at all.

Kermit says the Jan. 7th footage was only recently turned over to the FBI and the family.

Regarding the same Jan. 7th footage, all ldstlou categorically stated was that she didn't know when it was turned over to the FBI and neither did Kyle, but now the FBI does have it and the family, Jug specifically, is aware of it.

This means Kermit was telling the truth and Kyle wasn't the one who turned over the footage and there's no reason to believe it was "turned over in a timely fashion by another member of the Persistence team" - that was the Dec. 30th footage.

Someone please set me straight if I've got it wrong.

Not much from what i understand!This was the worst Dog and pony show i've seen.People need to quit speaking for Kyle.He's grown.come discuss this where people will ask tough questions in order to get to the truth!He chose not to discuss this with Kermit.Why?????I'm standing with the FROG until Kyle can sway me any other way.Have a feeling that won't happen..Hope i'm wrong.Let's stay focused with what we know.Back to how things transpired on the Persistence,the chain of command,who was in charge on the Persistence,protocal,who chose when to dive and why,who was the chief contact on the persistence in regards to the Arubans,etc,etc,etc....

I called ldstlou for one reason and one reason only this evening.  I wanted to ask her a specific question.  And that was did Jug and the family know about the photos that Kermit posted here this past week in a timely manner.  She ask him and his reply was that yes they had known about them for some time.

I then told her that she needed to come back here and lay it out there.  She did.

I also voiced my concerns about some of the things Kyle was telling others but yet was contridicting himself on this forum.

I still ahve some reservations about Kyle.  It is possible that some the things we are being told has been taken out of text.

I have no reason to not believe Kermit.  He / she has made a compelling argument.

But I do know that the family has said that they have known about the pictures for some time.

This does not mean that someone is lieing blah blah blah.

Yes Kyle should come back here and explain himself, and I told lsdtlou to tell him that.

So I sure hope you weren't meaning I was involved in a dog and pony show.  I just want the freakin truth.

From what i gather frommbeing on here there's not to many people that don't think that it was a great possibilty that Natalee was in that cage.For no one on the Persistence to take samples of the contents of that cage is horrific in my opinion!

I believe with all my heart that she was in  that trap.

We must continue to hold people's feet to the FIRE.Kyle has nothing to be ashamed of if he did nothing wrong.We'll understand.The difficult part for me is he is highly educated.We wouldn't play him for dumb now would we.Naive.Maybe,but doubt it.You think in his gut and innerself he didn't know while he was on that boat,as well as on the shore somethin was terribly wrong???Why wait so long???

[crazybabyborg]

For the record, I don't belong to a private forum.

For the record, I think a private forum is a perversion of the English language. Like JUMBO shrimp.

[Keepthefaith]

Is Dateline considered a news source?  And as such a member of our free press?  Both the LA Times and the NY Times have published blatantly classified information against the interest of national security and in spite of the protests of the entire intelligence community.

I just wonder how the FBI was able to force Dateline not to show what they had without violation of the Constitutional right of freedom of the press.  They can ask but they sure can't force a legit news source to do anything.

That's a great observation!What news source wouldn't have shown that footage if they had it??

[Lifesong]

I think what we experienced tonight was a hijacking of sorts.
Friends of Kyle took over the board to offer soft, simple, mis
information to defend Kyle.  Maybe they are confused.
I think Kyle may be a little afraid of going to jail for the things
he has done, but why send women to defend him.  Why can't he
come himself?

There's more we still don't know.  I don't think Kyle could go to jail for anything we've heard about so far.  He didn't turn over the footage, but even if he had it still proves nothing without the actual contents of the trap.  That's why I don't understand all the different attempts to discredit Kermit and defend Kyle. 

Why do they even care what we think?  It doesn't make sense to me.

[snoopy]

I don't belong to any private forums either.  

I used to belong to BNH.  I only read there.  Never posted.  Just wanted to know as much as I could about Natalee.  I was actually there when Robin posted the pictures.  Bout had a freakin heart attack.  I didn't say anything or do anything with them.  Next thing I knew I got kicked out. lol

       

Never got the boot before.  It wasn't too bad. lol

 

[snoopy]

Kermit are you saying there was no FBI or Quantico representatrive on the Persistence?

[Tamikosmom]

The failure of Aruba to retrieve the actual cage gives CAPS the opportunity to undermine the significance of the contents of the cage.

CAPS fails to comprehend that the contents of the cage were deemed by ALE to be insignificant to the Natalee Holloway case prior to ever being retrieved.  The Aruban obvious were confident this could be easily accomplished if they had the cooperation of John Silvetti.

However ... ALE/John Silvetti had not anticipated Tim Miller observation and ... public acknowledgement of what appeared to be in the cage and ... ALE/John Silvetti had not anticipated the leaked ROV images.

Janet

_______


CapsLockWizard
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #931 on: December 03, 2008, 04:19:56 AM »

<snipped>

Another thing , I went to dive a week a go to the same location, and the Cage is still there. If the cage was evidance in a murder case, why is it still in the water.

Another thing, from 2005 to 2008, we has gone through several mayor stroms that has pull sunken boat more heavy than the cage and in depth more than the cage to shore.

The cage has an Owner and is not Aruban  nor Venezuelan  and not Dutch. it is from a Colombian person and the use has it purpuse.

Other thing, I know the next move of the water Search team......

The man with fake diploma who did provide the cleaning is in a checkmate......perheps the end of the those higher ups is almost near.

CAPS

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564838;topicseen#msg564838


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -
« Reply #740 on: March 18, 2008, 04:22:38 PM »

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.

The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366321;topicseen#msg366321

[Keepthefaith]

#592 on: Today at 08:35:51 PM  Idstlou said:
The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.
 

Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM kyle said:
"The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


ERROR in your information Idstlou

If they did not expect to find any bones why would they have a thumbs-up signal if he saw skeleton remains?

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening
 
The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee



#622 on: Today at 09:31:20 PM   ldstlou
 have to get a firm statement on this. Here is what I do know. Hope this helps.
Members of Quantico were on the Persistence, they were there when the dive was done on the 30th and actually told a member of Dateline it was not Natalee and they could use the footage in the show. Members of the Persistence did not learn this until later and called Dateline and got them to NOT air the footage. The FBI told Dateline they could not air the full footage of the case because it was under investigation. Dateline had to take the additional footage out of their show, so I know they had the footage based on this info
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.620
 
According to Kyle that was the FBI they gave him permission
 
#732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
 Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?
 
#79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

Thanx Kermit.Who was the chief contact on the Persistence in regards to the Arubans if you know??

John Silvetti and Tim Tehran were the project leads.

Do you know Kermit what the protocal was regarding including Richardson or any ALE in any of the search team meetings.Was it required???Why was Richardson involved in meetings??

[texasmom]

This beautiful face is what it's all about.
Her life, her future, stolen from her and her family.
She'd only graduated high school, she had her whole life ahead of her.
She deserves Justice, her parents deserve answers; we have to help them get it.
All involved in this crime and the coverup of this crime need to pay for their actions.

[Tamikosmom]

I don't belong to any private forums either.   

... but ... but ... I bet you were invited.  I wasn't.

 

Janet