Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 - 12/24/08

[Blue Moon]

Johan you are as good with pictures as Klaas is.

[johan555]

Well, there has been so much going on in the cage with all the 'discussions'  about traps and pics and human remains.  And who is posting where and with whom.  At the risk of being totally annihilated on this fourm... I would like to ask if there is anyone left posting in the cage that believes there is a chance that Natalee could still be alive...or, at least left that sorry rock alive?

Please don't trash me for asking. 

I personally feel she was in that cage.  It is the only thing we have seen as solid evidence.  Everything else was destroyed and this may well have been also.  MO

Why in a cage (not far from a shipwreck) were everybody is diving ?

[Blue Moon]

Well, there has been so much going on in the cage with all the 'discussions'  about traps and pics and human remains.  And who is posting where and with whom.  At the risk of being totally annihilated on this fourm... I would like to ask if there is anyone left posting in the cage that believes there is a chance that Natalee could still be alive...or, at least left that sorry rock alive?

Please don't trash me for asking. 

I personally feel she was in that cage.  It is the only thing we have seen as solid evidence.  Everything else was destroyed and this may well have been also.  MO

Why in a cage (not far from a shipwreck) were everybody is diving ?

If she was put in the shipwreck then I would say Joran and friends put her there.  With the cage I would think higher ups put her there for safe keeping.  Shipwreck would be where young pimps would have put her because it is familiar territory to them.  Cage would be a warning and reminder to anyone using it as a postoffice.

[WhiskeyGirl]

I taped the Casino video from TV then took a picture of it, with my Camera.
 We all worked on Palus head all night till 2:00 AM
You can see the light coming through my Mini Blinds.
I sent this to Daves Tip line only. The next day it was everywhere.

I wish we could have seen more footage of that security tape.  The resemblance to that guy and Paulus, from what we can see, is just too much not to want to be sure.  It looks so much like him, and the fact that this guy is seen talking to Natalee just hours before she disappeared would make any real investigator want to have a few words with him.

Are there any pictures of PVDS and JVDS together that night?  Any video of PVDS and others?  From an historical perspective, it would be interesting to know who else of the widening circle of family and friends was at the casino that night, the night before, and the night after. 

From the video of JVDS and PVDS together, what WAS PVDS wearing that night?  IIRC, JVDS claimed dad had memory problems and wouldn't remember what he wore the night before.  What did good old DAD have on the night Natalee went missing?  It seems odd that JVDS would even make a comment like that.  "I can't remember."

How many witnesses/suspects would people be able to identify in those videos from the casino?  Same question for C&C?  How many interesting people were there that night?

IIRC, Monkeys and others also compared the arm and gold watch of this person at the table with Natalee to PVDS.

JMHO

There were also other girls in the casino at that table .
Can't  they say who "that man" was?

Not just the other girls - I recall that Beth saw and recognized PVDS from the casino videos.  They saw the video before the Alabama group went to the VDS compound.  See bold below. 

My summary - Beth recognized PVDS from the video.  Jug thought she was identifying JVDS.  I think this episode comes up somewhere else as well.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going to pick up right where we left off, where Jug and Beth meet for the first time Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, the judge, in Aruba.

[johan555]

I taped the Casino video from TV then took a picture of it, with my Camera.
 We all worked on Palus head all night till 2:00 AM
You can see the light coming through my Mini Blinds.
I sent this to Daves Tip line only. The next day it was everywhere.

I wish we could have seen more footage of that security tape.  The resemblance to that guy and Paulus, from what we can see, is just too much not to want to be sure.  It looks so much like him, and the fact that this guy is seen talking to Natalee just hours before she disappeared would make any real investigator want to have a few words with him.

Are there any pictures of PVDS and JVDS together that night?  Any video of PVDS and others?  From an historical perspective, it would be interesting to know who else of the widening circle of family and friends was at the casino that night, the night before, and the night after. 

From the video of JVDS and PVDS together, what WAS PVDS wearing that night?  IIRC, JVDS claimed dad had memory problems and wouldn't remember what he wore the night before.  What did good old DAD have on the night Natalee went missing?  It seems odd that JVDS would even make a comment like that.  "I can't remember."

How many witnesses/suspects would people be able to identify in those videos from the casino?  Same question for C&C?  How many interesting people were there that night?

IIRC, Monkeys and others also compared the arm and gold watch of this person at the table with Natalee to PVDS.

JMHO

There were also other girls in the casino at that table .
Can't  they say who "that man" was?

Not just the other girls - I recall that Beth saw and recognized PVDS from the casino videos.  They saw the video before the Alabama group went to the VDS compound.  See bold below. 

My summary - Beth recognized PVDS from the video.  Jug thought she was identifying JVDS.  I think this episode comes up somewhere else as well.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going to pick up right where we left off, where Jug and Beth meet for the first time Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, the judge, in Aruba.

The other girls can testify that he was in the casino

[wreck]

I taped the Casino video from TV then took a picture of it, with my Camera.
 We all worked on Palus head all night till 2:00 AM
You can see the light coming through my Mini Blinds.
I sent this to Daves Tip line only. The next day it was everywhere.

I wish we could have seen more footage of that security tape.  The resemblance to that guy and Paulus, from what we can see, is just too much not to want to be sure.  It looks so much like him, and the fact that this guy is seen talking to Natalee just hours before she disappeared would make any real investigator want to have a few words with him.

Are there any pictures of PVDS and JVDS together that night?  Any video of PVDS and others?  From an historical perspective, it would be interesting to know who else of the widening circle of family and friends was at the casino that night, the night before, and the night after. 

From the video of JVDS and PVDS together, what WAS PVDS wearing that night?  IIRC, JVDS claimed dad had memory problems and wouldn't remember what he wore the night before.  What did good old DAD have on the night Natalee went missing?  It seems odd that JVDS would even make a comment like that.  "I can't remember."

How many witnesses/suspects would people be able to identify in those videos from the casino?  Same question for C&C?  How many interesting people were there that night?

IIRC, Monkeys and others also compared the arm and gold watch of this person at the table with Natalee to PVDS.

JMHO

There were also other girls in the casino at that table .
Can't  they say who "that man" was?

Not just the other girls - I recall that Beth saw and recognized PVDS from the casino videos.  They saw the video before the Alabama group went to the VDS compound.  See bold below. 

My summary - Beth recognized PVDS from the video.  Jug thought she was identifying JVDS.  I think this episode comes up somewhere else as well.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going to pick up right where we left off, where Jug and Beth meet for the first time Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, the judge, in Aruba.

The other girls can testify that he was in the casino

Yes, and they most likely have told the FBI just that. These girls have not spoken ONE word since this happend. I commend them.

[WhiskeyGirl]

I also remember reading along the way that Michael Posner hired private investigators early in the case, when Natalee went missing.  Somehow, the name "Ernie Rizzo" from the Chicago area comes up. 

Rizzo worked on some famous cases, including those associated with Henry Hyde, Bill Clinton, & Michael Jackson.

An old Hyscience quote I saved -

Another side issue surfaced from a notorious poster, Proudredneck, claimed that the Twitty-Holloway phone at the Holiday Inn was wiretapped. Though no one proved or disproved the revelation, it did come across as possible. The wiretapper was said to be a PI working for Michael Posner. After Natalee went missing, the poster, Proudredneck, claimed the PI worked for the van der Sloots.

In my prior interface with Proudredneck, I found him abrasive; however, he did seem to know what he was talking about. I would not immediately discount what he is saying, other than to acknowledge some form of distant allegiance between him and the Twitty-Holloway group.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/10/harrytho_1014_n.php

Looking back, I wonder if Posner has more information that has not been shared with anyone.  I used to disregard him, and other posters pointed the finger his direction.  Maybe he has a greater involvement than I previously thought?

jmho

[truthseeker2]

Helloe, Memphis.  Haven't seen you around much lately.   Things a little warmer, though wetter, today.  Hopefully we wil see a little sunshine soon.   

[memphis]

Helloe, Memphis.  Haven't seen you around much lately.   Things a little warmer, though wetter, today.  Hopefully we wil see a little sunshine soon.   

Truthseeker2! Hi!
I'm not here much anymore. Not that I don't want to be, but life seems to get away from me if I spend too much time at SM.
In fact, I just read about those cage pics yesterday. Whoa.

[memphis]

Whiskeygirl:

I do not see an attempt to discredit Kermit or anyone.  I see disagreement among posters.

What I see are observations, pictures, speculation, and a lot of unknown missing information and facts.  Those that review these things, ponder them, form many different conclusions.  Different ideas from different points of view.

The only value in discussing the posters is to take the focus off Aruba.  I stand with the girl, and the finger is still pointing at Aruba. 

Doesn't matter to me if anyone agrees with me or not!   

jmho

I do. Hotshot outright called a Kermit a fraud. I asked her to confirm that -- she said she in fact did. Hotshot has offered NOTHINg to support her claims. NOTHING.

My bad, I must have missed that post.

When I look at the sites that many posters are openly associated with, I seem much to corroborate what they post here at ScaredMonkeys.

IIRC, there is a poster associated with "Aruba Dirty Police" at http://arubadirtypolice.blogspot.com/ last post December 14, 2008.  Lots of stuff here, no cage/trap stuff this month.  Why not?

Natalee's Freebirds http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/ last post September 24, 2008.  No cage/trap research here.  Why not?

Zoltan Zion, IIRC is associated with "Rob" - last post @ http://www.zoltanzion.blogspot.com/  July 16, 2008.   No cage/trap research here, no updates for many months.  Why not?

I think its simply different conclusions by different people.  Different points of view.  No evidence that I am aware of to support any version.  

In the realm of speculation and conclusions, sometimes, I just have to go with what I can verify.  Nothing at the three sites I consider the "go to" places.

Monkeys still rock, just don't always understand the ups and downs...

jmho

I'm just catching up with all of this and I'm trying to take a step back and look at the big picture, sotaspeak.
In response to the bolded blue above, I ask also, why aren't those 'new' crab trap pics posted at any of the above mentioned blogspots? Why aren't they on the front page here at SM? Heck, they don' even have their own thread. I find that puzzling.

Those pictures (the one with the bags and the one with the Natalee overlay, especially) are jaw dropping to say the least. Astonishing may be a better word.

[truthseeker2]

Helloe, Memphis.  Haven't seen you around much lately.   Things a little warmer, though wetter, today.  Hopefully we wil see a little sunshine soon.   

Truthseeker2! Hi!
I'm not here much anymore. Not that I don't want to be, but life seems to get away from me if I spend too much time at SM.
In fact, I just read about those cage pics yesterday. Whoa.

Yeah, it's been a little crazy here lately.  Those pic certainly make you sit up and take notice.  Who knows what will come of it all? 

I hope you can find the time to visit more often. 

[memphis]

I've been reading the posts from around the end of December last year, trying to get an idea of what was being said.

I found some interesting ones, especially from PI. How do I quote old posts and bring them over hear?

From the things he was saying, there is no way that they trusted ALE to do the right thing. PI talked about the blood to chocolate phenom. I find it very hard to believe that all that time, effort and money was spent and then ALE was allowed to collect the samples without the good guys.

Could it be possible that Kermit misinterpreted the secrecy, for lack of a better word, of Kyle about the sample retreival?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Whiskeygirl:

I do not see an attempt to discredit Kermit or anyone.  I see disagreement among posters.

What I see are observations, pictures, speculation, and a lot of unknown missing information and facts.  Those that review these things, ponder them, form many different conclusions.  Different ideas from different points of view.

The only value in discussing the posters is to take the focus off Aruba.  I stand with the girl, and the finger is still pointing at Aruba. 

Doesn't matter to me if anyone agrees with me or not!   

jmho

I do. Hotshot outright called a Kermit a fraud. I asked her to confirm that -- she said she in fact did. Hotshot has offered NOTHINg to support her claims. NOTHING.

My bad, I must have missed that post.

When I look at the sites that many posters are openly associated with, I seem much to corroborate what they post here at ScaredMonkeys.

IIRC, there is a poster associated with "Aruba Dirty Police" at http://arubadirtypolice.blogspot.com/ last post December 14, 2008.  Lots of stuff here, no cage/trap stuff this month.  Why not?

Natalee's Freebirds http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/ last post September 24, 2008.  No cage/trap research here.  Why not?

Zoltan Zion, IIRC is associated with "Rob" - last post @ http://www.zoltanzion.blogspot.com/  July 16, 2008.   No cage/trap research here, no updates for many months.  Why not?

I think its simply different conclusions by different people.  Different points of view.  No evidence that I am aware of to support any version.  

In the realm of speculation and conclusions, sometimes, I just have to go with what I can verify.  Nothing at the three sites I consider the "go to" places.

Monkeys still rock, just don't always understand the ups and downs...

jmho

I'm just catching up with all of this and I'm trying to take a step back and look at the big picture, sotaspeak.
In response to the bolded blue above, I ask also, why aren't those 'new' crab trap pics posted at any of the above mentioned blogspots? Why aren't they on the front page here at SM? Heck, they don' even have their own thread. I find that puzzling.

Those pictures (the one with the bags and the one with the Natalee overlay, especially) are jaw dropping to say the least. Astonishing may be a better word.

Hi, Memphis....Blonde started a separate thread for those pictures plus other pertinent information.  I cannot say why it's not on other blogs...and some of them have been posted on the front page.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.0

[WhiskeyGirl]

Aruba needs a water park?  

Aruba unveils the Caribbean’s largest water park
18 December 2008

Kids of all ages can have a splashing time at Aruba’s newest and wettest attraction, Morgan’s Island Water Park, the largest of its kind in the Caribbean. The new $14 million US dollar water park opened to the public on December 5 2008, and features the ‘Dragon Revenge’ tower offering six different heart-stopping waterslides, toboggan rides, two and four person water-tube rides and two wave pools.

Coming soon is the ‘Buccaneer Tower’ which will boast an impressive 21-meter vertical drop and will be the second tallest, second fastest, single-person, free-fall waterslide in the world!

Younger children can spend time at the dedicated water-playground featuring smaller slides and water spouts. After the excitement, families can refuel at the Black Pearl, a self-service restaurant, the Jack Sparrow Bar or Treasure Chest coffee shop.

Entrance to the water park costs $57 US dollars (around £37) for adults and $47 US dollars (around £31) for children aged 2-12 years.

For more information visit arubamorgansisland.com.

http://www.easier.com/view/Travel/Attractions_and_Events/article-223278.html

[truthseeker2]

I've been reading the posts from around the end of December last year, trying to get an idea of what was being said.

I found some interesting ones, especially from PI. How do I quote old posts and bring them over hear?

From the things he was saying, there is no way that they trusted ALE to do the right thing. PI talked about the blood to chocolate phenom. I find it very hard to believe that all that time, effort and money was spent and then ALE was allowed to collect the samples without the good guys.

Could it be possible that Kermit misinterpreted the secrecy, for lack of a better word, of Kyle about the sample retreival?

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

[truthseeker2]

I've been reading the posts from around the end of December last year, trying to get an idea of what was being said.

I found some interesting ones, especially from PI. How do I quote old posts and bring them over hear?

From the things he was saying, there is no way that they trusted ALE to do the right thing. PI talked about the blood to chocolate phenom. I find it very hard to believe that all that time, effort and money was spent and then ALE was allowed to collect the samples without the good guys.

Could it be possible that Kermit misinterpreted the secrecy, for lack of a better word, of Kyle about the sample retreival?

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:40...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

LOL.  Okay...self edit in red.

[memphis]

IMO, they found Natalee. She was just where Tim Miller thought she would be.

I cannot beleive that the Arubans were allowed to clean the trap alone. I am hoping that there were good guy divers that went down before the bad guy divers. I'm really, really hoping that's the secret and Kermit detected incorrectly the collusion of the good guys.

[Anna]

Well, there has been so much going on in the cage with all the 'discussions'  about traps and pics and human remains.  And who is posting where and with whom.  At the risk of being totally annihilated on this fourm... I would like to ask if there is anyone left posting in the cage that believes there is a chance that Natalee could still be alive...or, at least left that sorry rock alive?

Please don't trash me for asking. 

I personally feel she was in that cage.  It is the only thing we have seen as solid evidence.  Everything else was destroyed and this may well have been also.  MO

Since ALE totally absconded with the samples from the trap, how will we ever know?  Just take their word for it?  We know what that is worth.

I feel Natalee is definitely deceased because vd Straten said so and said he had seen the evidence and the reporter hadn't.

[Magnolia]

I taped the Casino video from TV then took a picture of it, with my Camera.
 We all worked on Palus head all night till 2:00 AM
You can see the light coming through my Mini Blinds.
I sent this to Daves Tip line only. The next day it was everywhere.

I wish we could have seen more footage of that security tape.  The resemblance to that guy and Paulus, from what we can see, is just too much not to want to be sure.  It looks so much like him, and the fact that this guy is seen talking to Natalee just hours before she disappeared would make any real investigator want to have a few words with him.

Are there any pictures of PVDS and JVDS together that night?  Any video of PVDS and others?  From an historical perspective, it would be interesting to know who else of the widening circle of family and friends was at the casino that night, the night before, and the night after. 

From the video of JVDS and PVDS together, what WAS PVDS wearing that night?  IIRC, JVDS claimed dad had memory problems and wouldn't remember what he wore the night before.  What did good old DAD have on the night Natalee went missing?  It seems odd that JVDS would even make a comment like that.  "I can't remember."

How many witnesses/suspects would people be able to identify in those videos from the casino?  Same question for C&C?  How many interesting people were there that night?

IIRC, Monkeys and others also compared the arm and gold watch of this person at the table with Natalee to PVDS.

JMHO

There were also other girls in the casino at that table .
Can't  they say who "that man" was?

Not just the other girls - I recall that Beth saw and recognized PVDS from the casino videos.  They saw the video before the Alabama group went to the VDS compound.  See bold below. 

My summary - Beth recognized PVDS from the video.  Jug thought she was identifying JVDS.  I think this episode comes up somewhere else as well.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going to pick up right where we left off, where Jug and Beth meet for the first time Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, the judge, in Aruba.

The other girls can testify that he was in the casino

If that were anyone other than Paulus, Aruba would have paraded
the person around with a banner on his head.  Instead they just
say that the person has never been identified.
Of course it is Paulus!

[memphis]

thanks 2NJSons_Mom

thanks truthseeker