Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 - 12/24/08

[WhiskeyGirl]

Well, there has been so much going on in the cage with all the 'discussions'  about traps and pics and human remains.  And who is posting where and with whom.  At the risk of being totally annihilated on this fourm... I would like to ask if there is anyone left posting in the cage that believes there is a chance that Natalee could still be alive...or, at least left that sorry rock alive?

Please don't trash me for asking. 

I personally feel she was in that cage.  It is the only thing we have seen as solid evidence.  Everything else was destroyed and this may well have been also.  MO

Since ALE totally absconded with the samples from the trap, how will we ever know?  Just take their word for it?  We know what that is worth.

I feel Natalee is definitely deceased because vd Straten said so and said he had seen the evidence and the reporter hadn't.

There is so much more that we haven't seen - the case file, the entire collection of casino tapes, and the collection of cage/trap videos/tapes/etc. 

So, there is much that remains hidden. 

I wonder how much would make more sense if people released more of those tapes?  Perhaps released some data on other targets that match the trap?

Maybe there are other images of the contents that prove one way or the other what was really in there?

imho

[memphis]

OK, here is my crude attempt at copying an old post...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: private eye on December 30, 2007, 03:50:41 PM
This may be an old subject, and if it is please forgive me.

What would you do if you were Beth and a body in a crab trap is found?

Turn it over to the Aruban authorities?

Turn it over to the FBI?

Closure vs Risk of magically turning blood into chocolate

Quote from: klaasend on December 30, 2007, 04:00:18 PM
I would turn it over to the FBI and let the FBI deal with ALE.  I wouldn't risk it disappearing with ALE.

Quote from: private eye on December 30, 2007, 06:28:00 PM
I assume Beth has been given advice, which she is hopefully keeping to herself, but I tend to agree with you.

[memphis]

OK, I really do know that i comes before e and that hear is different than here. 
Where's that edit button when you need it? 

[Poochy]

I taped the Casino video from TV then took a picture of it, with my Camera.
 We all worked on Palus head all night till 2:00 AM
You can see the light coming through my Mini Blinds.
I sent this to Daves Tip line only. The next day it was everywhere.

I wish we could have seen more footage of that security tape.  The resemblance to that guy and Paulus, from what we can see, is just too much not to want to be sure.  It looks so much like him, and the fact that this guy is seen talking to Natalee just hours before she disappeared would make any real investigator want to have a few words with him.

Are there any pictures of PVDS and JVDS together that night?  Any video of PVDS and others?  From an historical perspective, it would be interesting to know who else of the widening circle of family and friends was at the casino that night, the night before, and the night after. 

From the video of JVDS and PVDS together, what WAS PVDS wearing that night?  IIRC, JVDS claimed dad had memory problems and wouldn't remember what he wore the night before.  What did good old DAD have on the night Natalee went missing?  It seems odd that JVDS would even make a comment like that.  "I can't remember."

How many witnesses/suspects would people be able to identify in those videos from the casino?  Same question for C&C?  How many interesting people were there that night?

IIRC, Monkeys and others also compared the arm and gold watch of this person at the table with Natalee to PVDS.

JMHO

There were also other girls in the casino at that table .
Can't  they say who "that man" was?

Not just the other girls - I recall that Beth saw and recognized PVDS from the casino videos.  They saw the video before the Alabama group went to the VDS compound.  See bold below. 

My summary - Beth recognized PVDS from the video.  Jug thought she was identifying JVDS.  I think this episode comes up somewhere else as well.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going to pick up right where we left off, where Jug and Beth meet for the first time Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, the judge, in Aruba.

I would love to know who was at that roulette table that Guido worked that night. My guess is that person is the key to this mystery.

4:05 PM
Anonymous said...
Grey Whisper

Who was at the roulette table? and did Guido work that table?

[WhiskeyGirl]

A few other things come to mind regarding Posner and the casino -

~ Early in the case, there was rumor/speculation that Posner disappeared that Monday and the following week after Natalee disappeared.  I don't remember what the conclusion was about that.  Misdirection?

~ Rumor/speculation that Natalee was kept prisoner in a hidden room somewhere in a hotel, casino, or other building.  These seem to go along with the mask, and videotaping stories.

~ There was also rumor/speculation that a room somewhere (don't remember where) was redecorated unexpectedly after she disappeared.  Some linked that to Natalee.  I don't remember if there was any conclusion about that.

I wonder if Posner was seen as a convenient scapegoat, and he did his own investigation to find out who was responsible.

Also early in the case, it was suggested that JVDS was being followed as part of some other investigation.  From what I remember posters suggested that some mystery people had it out for the son of a judge, and were just waiting for him to misstep.

Along that line, I've always wondered if there really was some kind of documentation/investigation of JVDS by someone other than ALE.  This comes to mind because of the picture scandal, porn movie rumors, flask/tingling lips, and "we did this 20 other times".  

jmho

[memphis]

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

Truthseeker, you still here? I'm slow at this.

One of Kyle's 'posts' said, "we sampled the cage". Those are bones bagged up. How can Tim Trahan just give a thumbs down and that be the end of it. I don't believe it. I also don't believe that those pictures were written off by Dave, Beth, Jug, etc. as nothing. No way.

I just hope that something bigger hasn't been compromised here.

[COLOMBO]

I taped the Casino video from TV then took a picture of it, with my Camera.
 We all worked on Palus head all night till 2:00 AM
You can see the light coming through my Mini Blinds.
I sent this to Daves Tip line only. The next day it was everywhere.

I wish we could have seen more footage of that security tape.  The resemblance to that guy and Paulus, from what we can see, is just too much not to want to be sure.  It looks so much like him, and the fact that this guy is seen talking to Natalee just hours before she disappeared would make any real investigator want to have a few words with him.

Are there any pictures of PVDS and JVDS together that night?  Any video of PVDS and others?  From an historical perspective, it would be interesting to know who else of the widening circle of family and friends was at the casino that night, the night before, and the night after. 

From the video of JVDS and PVDS together, what WAS PVDS wearing that night?  IIRC, JVDS claimed dad had memory problems and wouldn't remember what he wore the night before.  What did good old DAD have on the night Natalee went missing?  It seems odd that JVDS would even make a comment like that.  "I can't remember."

How many witnesses/suspects would people be able to identify in those videos from the casino?  Same question for C&C?  How many interesting people were there that night?

IIRC, Monkeys and others also compared the arm and gold watch of this person at the table with Natalee to PVDS.

JMHO

There were also other girls in the casino at that table .
Can't  they say who "that man" was?

Not just the other girls - I recall that Beth saw and recognized PVDS from the casino videos.  They saw the video before the Alabama group went to the VDS compound.  See bold below. 

My summary - Beth recognized PVDS from the video.  Jug thought she was identifying JVDS.  I think this episode comes up somewhere else as well.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going to pick up right where we left off, where Jug and Beth meet for the first time Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, the judge, in Aruba.

I would love to know who was at that roulette table that Guido worked that night. My guess is that person is the key to this mystery.

4:05 PM
Anonymous said...
Grey Whisper

Who was at the roulette table? and did Guido work that table?

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 4:50 pm
Some people on the other side of the pond know more than what they are saying. There testimony, there’s security footage, there are witnesses.

[KYcat]

Hello Fellow Monkeys!!

Klaas, I feel I owe you an apology.  I posted last night and said something like "where is everybody".  I did not mean anything by that comment.  I know that Monkeys are dilligent about keeping this case alive and getting to the truth.  As far as the private forums go, I am totally oblivious to that.  I have never been invited to one, (no one likes me  ) LOL  I really don't care who does or who doesn't like me or my posts.  I do not want to hurt someone's feelings intentionally though and for that I apologize if I did.  Sooooooooo, enough with that. 

I will try to read and catch up when I really want you guys to give me an update!! LOL

 

[BUCKSHOT]

In an honest investigation, most certainly a copy of the casino tapes would have been supoenaed by the prosecuting attorney. Seems elementary to me...
 

[Poochy]

Colombo - to your post above (too many nested quotes so thought I'd stop!)

One would think that Hero Brinkman would start with the witnesses in the Netherlands, right? Especially Guido Wever.

[memphis]

Quote from: private eye on December 26, 2007, 10:42:00 PM

I need to get to bed, but it is hard to quit surfing for info:) Hopefully the Persistence will confirm or eliminate the water disposal method. There is a "normal" crematorium on the island, and not just a hospital incinerator I understand, and Renee operated both. Beth claims his wife is not incarcerated but I thought she was being detained. Didn't Renee also work at the refinery? If so he wasn't the piece of trash as the Aruban's dismissed him as upon his discovery. I will see everyone tomorrow:)))))))))

PS They never could have forseen the Persistence and hence the water grave would seem fool proof at those depths

Exactly. They never would have thought a Persistence would be sent. Also, those involved in the search knew they were looking for a crap trap and knew just about where it was. 

[KYcat]

WhiskeyGirl:

I snipped this from your post>>>

Also early in the case, it was suggested that JVDS was being followed as part of some other investigation.  From what I remember posters suggested that some mystery people had it out for the son of a judge, and were just waiting for him to misstep.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have wondered about this alot.  In a previous conversation with Kermit I was asking about the tennis shoe and why would Kyle give the tennis shoe to the FBI.  Kermit responded with "exactly, he is just a boatman".  I have no idea what that all meant but it has always bothered me.  Also, Kermit mentioned how better to keep someone from talking or blame someone than to leave evidence such as the shoe (implying it was JORANs) in the cage with Natalee. 

This still puzzles me.

 

[BUCKSHOT]

The other girls can testify that he was in the casino

If that were anyone other than Paulus, Aruba would have paraded
the person around with a banner on his head.  Instead they just
say that the person has never been identified.
Of course it is Paulus!

I agree !!!

[Magnolia]

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

Truthseeker, you still here? I'm slow at this.

One of Kyle's 'posts' said, "we sampled the cage". Those are bones bagged up. How can Tim Trahan just give a thumbs down and that be the end of it. I don't believe it. I also don't believe that those pictures were written off by Dave, Beth, Jug, etc. as nothing. No way.

I just hope that something bigger hasn't been compromised here.

What is bigger than finding Natalee, Memphis?  What could have
been compromised?

[Kermit]

Well, what do we do with Kermit's information? Kermit says she has given it to the FBI AND the family. I'm not sure as to what we here are supposed to do with this information. Kermit, what do you want/need US to do?? Are you confident that things are being done in the background (and I don't mean private forums!)?

Send emails to the Birmingham FBI office - attention Carmen S Adams, and copy those emails to our State Department in Washington
 
Include the pictures, and Kyle's words.
 
Plead with them to put pressure on Aruba, and more importantly on The Hague for answers.

[Kermit]

MumInOhio,
Your post was included, not to incriminate you or imply you were involved in any way, just more as your analysis was so right on, it was very good is all. Sorry if it offended you in any way. I just took notice of your post and put it in my post is all. Nothing more.


MuffyBee was correct. The use of G_d's name is respect in the Jewish religion. I use it always. Although, I am not Jewish.



SS,

croak

[Magnolia]

Well, what do we do with Kermit's information? Kermit says she has given it to the FBI AND the family. I'm not sure as to what we here are supposed to do with this information. Kermit, what do you want/need US to do?? Are you confident that things are being done in the background (and I don't mean private forums!)?

Send emails to the Birmingham FBI office - attention Carmen S Adams, and copy those emails to our State Department in Washington
 
Include the pictures, and Kyle's words.
 
Plead with them to put pressure on Aruba, and more importantly on The Hague for answers.

Thanks, Kermit.
I will get right on it.

[Kermit]

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

I don't know how to "bring a post over".  I usually just copy and paste the test into the new thread.

I still don't know what to think about all of this.  I am still waiting for an answer to why we see a thumbs down at 15:39 on 12/30 and then a shot at 15:40 that could be human remains is seen.  Those divers had to be looking at the same thing we see in the shot at 15:30...so why thumbs down?  What did they see?  I pretty sure one of those divers is Tim Trahan.  If those were human remains...what should we think about Tim T.?

Truthseeker, you still here? I'm slow at this.

One of Kyle's 'posts' said, "we sampled the cage". Those are bones bagged up. How can Tim Trahan just give a thumbs down and that be the end of it. I don't believe it. I also don't believe that those pictures were written off by Dave, Beth, Jug, etc. as nothing. No way.

I just hope that something bigger hasn't been compromised here.

I also don't believe that those pictures were written off by Dave, Beth, Jug, etc. as nothing. No way.

Me either.

[wreck]

Well, what do we do with Kermit's information? Kermit says she has given it to the FBI AND the family. I'm not sure as to what we here are supposed to do with this information. Kermit, what do you want/need US to do?? Are you confident that things are being done in the background (and I don't mean private forums!)?

Send emails to the Birmingham FBI office - attention Carmen S Adams, and copy those emails to our State Department in Washington
 
Include the pictures, and Kyle's words.
 
Plead with them to put pressure on Aruba, and more importantly on The Hague for answers.

THANK-YOU!!!!

From Memphis:

OK, here is my crude attempt at copying an old post...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: private eye on December 30, 2007, 03:50:41 PM
This may be an old subject, and if it is please forgive me.

What would you do if you were Beth and a body in a crab trap is found?

Turn it over to the Aruban authorities?

Turn it over to the FBI?

Closure vs Risk of magically turning blood into chocolate

Quote from: klaasend on December 30, 2007, 04:00:18 PM
I would turn it over to the FBI and let the FBI deal with ALE.  I wouldn't risk it disappearing with ALE.

Quote from: private eye on December 30, 2007, 06:28:00 PM
I assume Beth has been given advice, which she is hopefully keeping to herself, but I tend to agree with you.

This tells me PI KNEW ABOUT THE TRAP on the December 30TH!!!! Klaas advised him NOT to trust ALE!!!!!!!

[BUCKSHOT]

Are there methods and/or angles for another (more honest) law enforcement agency (FBI) to assist, compliant with jurisdictional issues? Aruba has fought tooth and nail to keep others out of this investigation. Most countries would welcome help...

By the way, thank you for your most insightful information !!! I am "all ears" when you speak.