Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 - 12/24/08

[billb's daughter]

me again....

I'm so confused.

In the Search thread on Dec 04 at 11:20 am, Blonde has this posted from Kermit.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

PI is seeing a picture with an object in a zip lock bag? Huh? I thought the picture with the bags was not seen by anyone until now.

Please, someone fill me in if I'm mistaken.

So you believe Kyle turned the photographs over in a timely fashion?Is that safe to say Memphis?

Last I heard/understood...Kyle NEVER turned over the pics...that is the issue Kermit brought forward....

Was just trying to understand what Memphis was implying?Billb?Your thoughts

Keepthefaith,
Memphis opened her post with: I'm so confused.
WRT to the meaning of her post, I'm confused too. Giving her the benefit of doubt, maybe she is asking questions based on her catching up reading? I read most if not all of what she says she has been reading up on, and my conclusions differ from what her conclusions seem to be, based on her questions. Memphis, I know your are reading my reply, so I don't want you to take my comments as derogatory.
Please clarify what you are implying.
Thanks, billb

[Keepthefaith]

me again....

I'm so confused.

In the Search thread on Dec 04 at 11:20 am, Blonde has this posted from Kermit.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

PI is seeing a picture with an object in a zip lock bag? Huh? I thought the picture with the bags was not seen by anyone until now.

Please, someone fill me in if I'm mistaken.

So you believe Kyle turned the photographs over in a timely fashion?Is that safe to say Memphis?

Last I heard/understood...Kyle NEVER turned over the pics...that is the issue Kermit brought forward....

Was just trying to understand what Memphis was implying?Billb?Your thoughts

Keepthefaith,
Memphis opened her post with: I'm so confused.
WRT to the meaning of her post, I'm confused too. Giving her the benefit of doubt, maybe she is asking questions based on her catching up reading? I read most if not all of what she says she has been reading up on, and my conclusions differ from what her conclusions seem to be, based on her questions. Memphis, I know your are reading my reply, so I don't want you to take my comments as derogatory.
Please clarify what you are implying.
Thanks, billb

I definitley understand the confusion!I would be more then willing to hear what Kyle has to say.That's my only hope in regards to the cage,as well as the contents.I pray that there were people on the Persistence that we are unaware of.At this point do i believe that?No.I hope i'm wrong..

[Frank]

Hey wreck,

The fact that this story is still in the news, with another morsel of hope to get something lit coming in January, is a success in reality. Every single person who has told another person about this story in any manner, whether they choose to write, speak, blog, join forums or whatever is contributing.

And it's the Holidays, which have become more humbling since this crime has grabbed some of us, like you.

But you know, it's possible that having hope is one of 2 options. The other is knowing the truth and finally putting this case to rest.

But I think that is going to be a painful, much more painful experience than anyone can imagine. I mean you remember the Death Wish movies? Nobody is going to be applauding the end of this case. I just think the truth is going to be nauseating even beyond what we've seen.

Tell those people who don't understand that at least your doing something about one thing, than nothing about everything. That attitude protects the criminals.

And the reason I don't post anything about the cage is that from the beginning I always felt the dirty police, the cover up and what happened to Natalee while she was on the island was controlled by 3 people, Janssen, van der straaten and van der sloot. If that was Natalee in the cage it doesn't open that many scenarios. I want to know exactly when she left Aruba, dead or alive.

I know it wasn't in the first 48 hours. You don't create a 10 cover up if Natalee was taken off the island right away. I mean if the dirty police need to give THEMSELVES 10 days, it must be bad, too many involved.

The only way to stay in the story is to take breaks, and connect with others regardless of the forum.

[billb's daughter]

Sunday, December 14, 2008
Alfonso Riveroll: Lost in Transition
http://arubadirtypolice.blogspot.com/
 
Frank,
I'm always late to the diner table, hence the late response to your commentary... GREAT POST...Justice for Natalee!
THANK YOU SIR....

[crazybabyborg]

OK, caught up again! I just wanted to drop this off for Kermit to use when things get REALLY frustrating for her, 

[Klowe]

Here's the deal.  Neither Kyle or Capslock have been banned.  They are welcome to post rebuttles to anything Kermit is posting.  I'm all for hearing both sides of the story.  It's not like it's going to harm the investigation.  After this long I doubt anything can hurt the investigation.

Klaas,
It is very suspicious to me that both Caps and Kyle became so quiet after Kermit's exposure.  Anyone who was reading/posting at the time Kermit posted the "secret" pics knows what a true revelation they were, and we all saw Kyles own posts about the situation, which proved that Kermit and Kyle had been in communications about these pics.   We all read where Kyle was discouraging Kermit from posting THE TRUTH.    We all saw Kyle post that it was his "last" post on this forum.   That just made him look more guilty to me.



I am pissed that we still have people trying to hide the truth, and protecting those that are guilty of murder and corruption.    I am pissed that they use good honest people like Tim Miller to try to win our trust to further their own agenda or financial gain.   It is very sad and sickening.   I am pissed that some people start private cliques/forums, taking knowledge that they have gained from this forum, and actually thinking they know more than the  most intelligent monkeys.  Then they have the audacity to come to this forum to correct or rather discredit those same monkeys when it is obvious we are learning a lot of truths that they wanted to keep secret and hidden.   They should give it up, we won't stop till we get to the truth and expose all of the corruption.  I don't see how some people can honestly expect us to believe that they stand with the girl.


Thanks to all of the pure hearts on this board for working so hard towards the truth.  Red, Klaas, Kermit, and all the others who have put so much time and effort into research and putting that info on here for me and others to learn and read about this.  It's all about Natalee and I hope in time we can see the family gain some kind of closure and find some peace. 

[memphis]

me again....

I'm so confused.

In the Search thread on Dec 04 at 11:20 am, Blonde has this posted from Kermit.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

PI is seeing a picture with an object in a zip lock bag? Huh? I thought the picture with the bags was not seen by anyone until now.

Please, someone fill me in if I'm mistaken.

So you believe Kyle turned the photographs over in a timely fashion?Is that safe to say Memphis?

Last I heard/understood...Kyle NEVER turned over the pics...that is the issue Kermit brought forward....

Was just trying to understand what Memphis was implying?Billb?Your thoughts

Keepthefaith,
Memphis opened her post with: I'm so confused.
WRT to the meaning of her post, I'm confused too. Giving her the benefit of doubt, maybe she is asking questions based on her catching up reading? I read most if not all of what she says she has been reading up on, and my conclusions differ from what her conclusions seem to be, based on her questions. Memphis, I know your are reading my reply, so I don't want you to take my comments as derogatory.
Please clarify want you are implying.
Thanks, billb

Can't believe I'm still awake. I'm going out of town tomorrow, so I better answer now in case I don't have a chance for a while.

I am just grabbling at the moment and haven't come to any conclusions, except that I believe that Natalee's remains were in that crab trap. I'm trying to think critically, but it's difficult when you only have bits and pieces.

The only two options I see at this moment are,
1. that Kermit is on the money, or
2. that Kermit came to a premature and incorrect conclusion

I am hoping that just maybe the crew outsmarted Aruba this time and sampled the cage themselves prior to ALE. The secrecy involved might have caused Kermit to come to the wrong conclusion. Does that make sense? Do I need to further elaborate?

I'm not attacking or saying anything negative against Kermit, Kyle or anyone. I will admit that I am hoping that senario #2 above is the correct one, but I have not come to any conclusions at this point.

Regarding the quote I posted, I understood that the picture with the "zip lock" bags holding evidence were not given to any in Natalee's family or the FBI. However, PI is commenting on them, so obviously he has seen some picture with the collected remains in the bags. Yes, I am pointing out that maybe Kermit was incorrect. I'm not trying to discredit Kermit, just hoping she/he is wrong.

What conclusion have you come to BillB?

[memphis]

Trying to be as plain as I can, I am hoping that the family, in conjuction with the crew of the Persistance, decided on closure rather than evidence that leads to prosecution. I'm hoping that they choose to sample the cage and have it sent to our FBI without Aruba knowing. I am hoping that this was kept secret to prevent those who helped from getting into any kind of trouble and that the secrecy and shrouding appeared as something quite different and was misunderstood by Kermit.

Not saying it's so. Just hoping.

[MumInOhio]

A few other things come to mind regarding Posner and the casino -

~ Early in the case, there was rumor/speculation that Posner disappeared that Monday and the following week after Natalee disappeared.  I don't remember what the conclusion was about that.  Misdirection?

~ Rumor/speculation that Natalee was kept prisoner in a hidden room somewhere in a hotel, casino, or other building.  These seem to go along with the mask, and videotaping stories.

~ There was also rumor/speculation that a room somewhere (don't remember where) was redecorated unexpectedly after she disappeared.  Some linked that to Natalee.  I don't remember if there was any conclusion about that.

I wonder if Posner was seen as a convenient scapegoat, and he did his own investigation to find out who was responsible.

Also early in the case, it was suggested that JVDS was being followed as part of some other investigation.  From what I remember posters suggested that some mystery people had it out for the son of a judge, and were just waiting for him to misstep.

Along that line, I've always wondered if there really was some kind of documentation/investigation of JVDS by someone other than ALE.  This comes to mind because of the picture scandal, porn movie rumors, flask/tingling lips, and "we did this 20 other times".  

jmho

WhiskeyGirl...Going from memory here...I believe it was a room in the Holiday Inn and have even seen it posted as Natalee's room. Please don't take this as gospel as I believe Beth stayed in Natalee's room. Also have seen it posted that Natalee's room was changed.

Apparently, according to Posner's lawyer, he was not in Aruba that night. May have been a FP post...Will see if I can find it for you.

[MumInOhio]

MumInOhio,
Your post was included, not to incriminate you or imply you were involved in any way, just more as your analysis was so right on, it was very good is all. Sorry if it offended you in any way. I just took notice of your post and put it in my post is all. Nothing more.


MuffyBee was correct. The use of G_d's name is respect in the Jewish religion. I use it always. Although, I am not Jewish.



SS,

croak

Kermit...Whew!....Thank You...I am so relieved!

[MumInOhio]

MumInOhio,
Your post was included, not to incriminate you or imply you were involved in any way, just more as your analysis was so right on, it was very good is all. Sorry if it offended you in any way. I just took notice of your post and put it in my post is all. Nothing more.


MuffyBee was correct. The use of G_d's name is respect in the Jewish religion. I use it always. Although, I am not Jewish.



SS,

croak

MumInOhio.
Any idea which post Kermit is referring to here?
BUCKSHOT

Buckshot...This is it...From Kermit's post 12/17/2008 on Page 46 of the previous thread.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4239.msg588188#msg588188

#1468 on: May 07, 2008, 05:28:28 AM  muminohio
When Caps first started posting in the forum he knew very little about the case, or so it appears from his early posts. He asked us about the family, the friends, the private plane and the pimps. He asked about the suspects and about the people such as Julia and others that continually misinformed us. He needed our help and knowledge with these pieces of the puzzle. There is nothing wrong with that, I personally have spent a lot of time and posts sharing any information I had or could find.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379700#msg379700

[MumInOhio]

Why would Posner do Paulus such a favor as not allowing those videotapes to be reviewed?All those Hotels and Casino's should have a plethora of video footage..

Paulass is a$$ deep in money laundering and fixing government contracts that allow posner to operate businesses in aruba.....
Follow the money...

So we assume Paulus is the "Laundry Man"?Where did Paulus learn his trade?Gotta start his internship somewhere! "If" Paulus,and or his good buddies are Posner's business partner..Be curious to who these Hotel owners business partners are "If" there not Aruban citizens??

The Holiday Inn is owned by the Lionstone Group - Miami. They wanted to build the Ritz Carlton, which fell through. Not sure id that had anything to do with them building a Ritz in South Beach or not, but their partner in that venture was Flag Luxury Properties of New York. Not sure who the partner would have been in the Ritz Aruba.

I found something a while back from Aruba's Department of Immigration and Naturaliztion, DINA, that after 10 years foreigners can buy businesses. So Posner could have had a US partner, or their may be provisions for developers.

I recalled this after seeing that the casino's Registry item was updated in 2007. This would have been the 10 year time limit.

[San]

A few other things come to mind regarding Posner and the casino -

~ Early in the case, there was rumor/speculation that Posner disappeared that Monday and the following week after Natalee disappeared.  I don't remember what the conclusion was about that.  Misdirection?

~ Rumor/speculation that Natalee was kept prisoner in a hidden room somewhere in a hotel, casino, or other building.  These seem to go along with the mask, and videotaping stories.

~ There was also rumor/speculation that a room somewhere (don't remember where) was redecorated unexpectedly after she disappeared.  Some linked that to Natalee.  I don't remember if there was any conclusion about that.

I wonder if Posner was seen as a convenient scapegoat, and he did his own investigation to find out who was responsible.

Also early in the case, it was suggested that JVDS was being followed as part of some other investigation.  From what I remember posters suggested that some mystery people had it out for the son of a judge, and were just waiting for him to misstep.

Along that line, I've always wondered if there really was some kind of documentation/investigation of JVDS by someone other than ALE.  This comes to mind because of the picture scandal, porn movie rumors, flask/tingling lips, and "we did this 20 other times".  

jmho

WhiskeyGirl...Going from memory here...I believe it was a room in the Holiday Inn and have even seen it posted as Natalee's room. Please don't take this as gospel as I believe Beth stayed in Natalee's room. Also have seen it posted that Natalee's room was changed.

Apparently, according to Posner's lawyer, he was not in Aruba that night. May have been a FP post...Will see if I can find it for you.

Since when do we believe a dirty rotton lying lawyer that his client who is a known murderer was not in Aruba.

Now with that said I'm not saying Posner had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance because I feel the main suspects Joran/Kalpoes/Paulus were the cause of her death.

Posner not being in Aruba well let's just say I think they are FOS.

[San]

Have a great day everyone.

We are all here for Natalee.

[MumInOhio]

A few other things come to mind regarding Posner and the casino -

~ Early in the case, there was rumor/speculation that Posner disappeared that Monday and the following week after Natalee disappeared.  I don't remember what the conclusion was about that.  Misdirection?

~ Rumor/speculation that Natalee was kept prisoner in a hidden room somewhere in a hotel, casino, or other building.  These seem to go along with the mask, and videotaping stories.

~ There was also rumor/speculation that a room somewhere (don't remember where) was redecorated unexpectedly after she disappeared.  Some linked that to Natalee.  I don't remember if there was any conclusion about that.

I wonder if Posner was seen as a convenient scapegoat, and he did his own investigation to find out who was responsible.

Also early in the case, it was suggested that JVDS was being followed as part of some other investigation.  From what I remember posters suggested that some mystery people had it out for the son of a judge, and were just waiting for him to misstep.

Along that line, I've always wondered if there really was some kind of documentation/investigation of JVDS by someone other than ALE.  This comes to mind because of the picture scandal, porn movie rumors, flask/tingling lips, and "we did this 20 other times".  

jmho

WhiskeyGirl...Going from memory here...I believe it was a room in the Holiday Inn and have even seen it posted as Natalee's room. Please don't take this as gospel as I believe Beth stayed in Natalee's room. Also have seen it posted that Natalee's room was changed.

Apparently, according to Posner's lawyer, he was not in Aruba that night. May have been a FP post...Will see if I can find it for you.

Since when do we believe a dirty rotton lying lawyer that his client who is a known murderer was not in Aruba.

Now with that said I'm not saying Posner had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance because I feel the main suspects Joran/Kalpoes/Paulus were the cause of her death.

Posner not being in Aruba well let's just say I think they are FOS.

I agree San...Posner was there, way too convenient for me...Just posting that his lawyer said he wasn't.

Maybe he did hightail it out of there the next day and that is how any of the video got out.

[MumInOhio]

What exactly is the property of vd Sloot?
The red or blue area?

Blue area only -- the Red area is the next door neighbor's property with "Niko" the monkey's cage in the backyard.

When I look at this picture, I think of all the ways someone could sneak out of the van der sloot compound.  IIRC, there was a gate next to the main living quarters with entry to the pool.  There are windows that face outside the compound.  There are all those roads and paths. 

I remember discussions early on that ALE had someone in front of the VDS house.  What good would that do?  So many ways to escape and drive a car up without being noticed.

Also, so easy to move a body and hide in the bushes of the surrounding properties.  Through the gate, window, or just over the fence.  It doesn't look like there is much lighting.

jmho

if that pic was wider (toward the right?)
I think we would see Freddy's then-residence

the condo/townhouse: 37 F or 39 F ...
which AG looked for but couldn't find
on the friday night Freddy was arrested

Hi Fin...Strange she couldn't find it, wasn't it?

Johan...Can you also add #62 as well.

I am not sure when they moved, I think the 2005 Chamber records have 62, but will have to check and it will take me forever to find it in my stuff, as last I check they had removed those records.

Thanks in Advance.

[johan555]

What exactly is the property of vd Sloot?
The red or blue area?

Blue area only -- the Red area is the next door neighbor's property with "Niko" the monkey's cage in the backyard.

When I look at this picture, I think of all the ways someone could sneak out of the van der sloot compound.  IIRC, there was a gate next to the main living quarters with entry to the pool.  There are windows that face outside the compound.  There are all those roads and paths. 

I remember discussions early on that ALE had someone in front of the VDS house.  What good would that do?  So many ways to escape and drive a car up without being noticed.

Also, so easy to move a body and hide in the bushes of the surrounding properties.  Through the gate, window, or just over the fence.  It doesn't look like there is much lighting.

jmho

if that pic was wider (toward the right?)
I think we would see Freddy's then-residence

the condo/townhouse: 37 F or 39 F ...
which AG looked for but couldn't find
on the friday night Freddy was arrested

Hi Fin...Strange she couldn't find it, wasn't it?

Johan...Can you also add #62 as well.

I am not sure when they moved, I think the 2005 Chamber records have 62, but will have to check and it will take me forever to find it in my stuff, as last I check they had removed those records.

Thanks in Advance.

add #62  ???

[MumInOhio]

Hey wreck,

The fact that this story is still in the news, with another morsel of hope to get something lit coming in January, is a success in reality. Every single person who has told another person about this story in any manner, whether they choose to write, speak, blog, join forums or whatever is contributing.

And it's the Holidays, which have become more humbling since this crime has grabbed some of us, like you.

But you know, it's possible that having hope is one of 2 options. The other is knowing the truth and finally putting this case to rest.

But I think that is going to be a painful, much more painful experience than anyone can imagine. I mean you remember the Death Wish movies? Nobody is going to be applauding the end of this case. I just think the truth is going to be nauseating even beyond what we've seen.

Tell those people who don't understand that at least your doing something about one thing, than nothing about everything. That attitude protects the criminals.

And the reason I don't post anything about the cage is that from the beginning I always felt the dirty police, the cover up and what happened to Natalee while she was on the island was controlled by 3 people, Janssen, van der straaten and van der sloot. If that was Natalee in the cage it doesn't open that many scenarios. I want to know exactly when she left Aruba, dead or alive.

I know it wasn't in the first 48 hours. You don't create a 10 cover up if Natalee was taken off the island right away. I mean if the dirty police need to give THEMSELVES 10 days, it must be bad, too many involved.

The only way to stay in the story is to take breaks, and connect with others regardless of the forum.

I totally agree...They needed to June 9th...Why! To get the cover-up in place.

I believe she was at the van der Sloot's and that she was moved a couple of times. I also think we have too many possibilities - the shallow grave, the plastic bag, the rocks to name a few. I just don't know which ones are the right ones. Is it possible that the dogs got hits on another body, not Natalee's. Were the hits in the landfill on belongings with DNA?

Makes me wonder if the radar and electricity going out on June 8th. was to add more confusion...the possibility that she was taken out to sea.

[MumInOhio]

Sorry Johan...We are trying to see where Freddy's house is in relation the Joran's. The Chamber records showed 39F or G? and 62.

We have been told repeatedly that Freddy lived at the back of Joran.  The diagrams that Caps provided us in Shango didn't show it this way.

That is why we would like you to see if you can spot these on a mp for us.

I think we have tried this before and we couldn't get any where with it...

[Nut44x4]

checked in earlier, all quiet. Need to go out till about noon. Later.