Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 - 12/24/08

[Kermit]

Kyle sent me this today


Kermit,
 
You and the others agreed to a statement of confidentiality and nondisclosure at FB.  Before I posted any information, I posted a copyright notice at the very start which disallowed ANY and ALL of my posts, intellectual property, or pictures to leave the spot they were posted.  Everyone, including yourself, acknowledged this affirmatively. A lawyer said that ownership of that posted material cannot be transferred by a general claim of copyright such as a claim made on the front page of a website, or even by verbal consent. Written agreement, meaning a signed agreement, is required for the post to be owned by the site owner. Without a signed agreement, the poster owns the post. I did not give you permission, which I have stated many times when you were in violation. While the rest agreed, you violated this legal agreement repeatedly. You have taken many of my posts, snipped what you wanted to put them into your context, and then shared them in a public forum.  The "public domain" notion only applies where someone has copyright ownership over the work in the first case and that ownership has lapsed. In that case, all posts can be freely reproduced by anyone, anywhere, without violating copyright law. However, this is clearly not the case.
 
I will state this with absolute clarity so there is no misunderstanding:
I have confirmed with the FBI on multiple instances that they have had possession of the ROV videos since very early on. I personally didn't send the ROV footage to them because another project lead had already at the first opportunity while we were still in Aruba. I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.  I also got confirmation back in February by Tim Trahan who was in constant contact with Beth during the search that she indeed had all the information including the statements and has seen the ROV videos. I personally confirmed all of this with the senior FBI agent in charge of the investigation as well as given him my personal account of all that I witnessed and knew. They have this on record.  Birmingham is not the office in charge.
 
The information you have been spreading is not only inaccurate and a violation of a non-disclosure, it is slanderous and spreading misinformation. The damage it has done to my professional relationship with J. Silvetti is incalculable which has a direct effect on my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter named after Natalee.
 
I have neither publicly responded to your provocative antics, or retaliated with personal attacks in response to yours. I also have never threatened you as you publicly claimed.
 
I recently asked the senior FBI agent in charge how I should handle this situation which you have incited.  I thought his response was terrific. He replied: "Just sit back and keep quiet.  Kermit doesn't matter".
So this is exactly what I've done. I wrote this letter to you as a gesture of courtesy in hopes it would save you from further embarrassment from those who actually know something about this case.  I'm not referring to myself, rather the family and lead investigators who are out legitimately investigating this case in pursuit of justice right to the top.
 
Sincerely,
 
Kyle







From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120

[Kermit]

In all of this there are only two things that matter: bring Natalee home and to give peace and closure to her family. All this sue this person or that person or anything else cannot compare to the agony Beth must endure every waking moment. People who want justice for Natalee, if that's what they REALLY want and are not after personal glory for themselves, would not be threatening to me or anybody else. They'd just want the information to get into the right hands.

With that said.....
 

San doesn't take to kindly to threats.  You stay safe Kermit.

Thank you San.
I will do my best.
Very sad.

[caesu]

discussions on Aruba between the Dutch/Aruban/Antilles delegations from January 5th to January 9th.
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/nieuws/persberichten/parlementair_overleg_koninkrijksrelaties_2009.jsp

no word yet on whether Aruba is going to allow Brinkman in or not.

[Keepthefaith]

In all of this there are only two things that matter: bring Natalee home and to give peace and closure to her family. All this sue this person or that person or anything else cannot compare to the agony Beth must endure every waking moment. People who want justice for Natalee, if that's what they REALLY want and are not after personal glory for themselves, would not be threatening to me or anybody else. They'd just want the information to get into the right hands.

With that said.....
 

San doesn't take to kindly to threats.  You stay safe Kermit.

Thank you San.
I will do my best.
Very sad.

Maybe if he sue's you Kermit we could find out his side of the story W/O him hiding behind the cloak of secrecy..Not that i'd want you to be sued Kermit.Kyle would then have to speak...

[Kermit]

PERHAPS KYLE VIOLATED THE COPYRIGHT HIMSELF

Kyle said: "She [BETH] needs to know exactly what we found in the proper timing. The way to do that would be through Tim Trahan and I. I can arrange any meeting with him. He represents the owner and the rights to the data, in this case, Louis S. I have everything but I don't want to go around him for chain of custody reasons, professional courtesy, and friendship."
 
The next step:
I will soon propose a meeting with Beth and other family members, myself, Tim Trahan, Peter DeVries, and whomever else necessary to go over the ROV video, contents, and case status. I would like a couple people very familiar with the case documents also present to help connect dots during the meeting. I would prefer meeting towards the end of April or mid-May to allow adequate time for things to shake themselves out if is going to. If necessary, I have an ABC (20/20) and CBS (early show) film crew ready and willing to take part in such a meeting should it require press coverage. I've already had a meeting with ABC about this and they are "definitely interested" at the executive level. We met in mid-Feb about this already. The question becomes timing, who needs to be there, and whether or not it's covered by the press. I prefer not, but it may be useful. DeVries doesn't need to be there in my opinion but he's good for ratings and helps ABC be cooperative if needed.


He certainly is a planner
[edited to protect the individual] needs to be called and ask to request the removal of the post by either her
or PI to Klaas. 

[San]

Kyle sent me this today


Kermit,
 
You and the others agreed to a statement of confidentiality and nondisclosure at FB.  Before I posted any information, I posted a copyright notice at the very start which disallowed ANY and ALL of my posts, intellectual property, or pictures to leave the spot they were posted.  Everyone, including yourself, acknowledged this affirmatively. A lawyer said that ownership of that posted material cannot be transferred by a general claim of copyright such as a claim made on the front page of a website, or even by verbal consent. Written agreement, meaning a signed agreement, is required for the post to be owned by the site owner. Without a signed agreement, the poster owns the post. I did not give you permission, which I have stated many times when you were in violation. While the rest agreed, you violated this legal agreement repeatedly. You have taken many of my posts, snipped what you wanted to put them into your context, and then shared them in a public forum.  The "public domain" notion only applies where someone has copyright ownership over the work in the first case and that ownership has lapsed. In that case, all posts can be freely reproduced by anyone, anywhere, without violating copyright law. However, this is clearly not the case.
 
I will state this with absolute clarity so there is no misunderstanding:
I have confirmed with the FBI on multiple instances that they have had possession of the ROV videos since very early on. I personally didn't send the ROV footage to them because another project lead had already at the first opportunity while we were still in Aruba. I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.  I also got confirmation back in February by Tim Trahan who was in constant contact with Beth during the search that she indeed had all the information including the statements and has seen the ROV videos. I personally confirmed all of this with the senior FBI agent in charge of the investigation as well as given him my personal account of all that I witnessed and knew. They have this on record.  Birmingham is not the office in charge.
 
The information you have been spreading is not only inaccurate and a violation of a non-disclosure, it is slanderous and spreading misinformation. The damage it has done to my professional relationship with J. Silvetti is incalculable which has a direct effect on my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter named after Natalee.
 
I have neither publicly responded to your provocative antics, or retaliated with personal attacks in response to yours. I also have never threatened you as you publicly claimed.
 
I recently asked the senior FBI agent in charge how I should handle this situation which you have incited.  I thought his response was terrific. He replied: "Just sit back and keep quiet.  Kermit doesn't matter".
So this is exactly what I've done. I wrote this letter to you as a gesture of courtesy in hopes it would save you from further embarrassment from those who actually know something about this case.  I'm not referring to myself, rather the family and lead investigators who are out legitimately investigating this case in pursuit of justice right to the top.
 
Sincerely,
 
Kyle


From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120

The FBI told him to keep quiet and he still opened his fat mouth.

So basically what he is saying the people he posted with in the private forum don't mean squat.  Why is he worrying about people who don't mean squat to him.

[caesu]

Pietersz is appointed PG. not care taker PG, but real PG.
so i guess Croes-Fernandes has her pension now.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2839183/__Nieuwe_procureur-_generaal_Aruba__.html

[Kermit]

From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660



Notice the date.

SM
Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:38 PM
From:"Kyle Kingman"

I have recently been in contact with the FBI (within the last two weeks).  They do know what I know in full.  This is in their hands and in the hands of Beth.   I pulled out of SM because I don't want to cause any more problems, not because of you.  I respect all that you have done thus far and don't want that to be jeopardized now.  There's a lot of people who respect your opinions.  Let's leave that intact.

All the best,
 
~K


This took place AFTER the evidence was given to the FBI and not by Kyle

[Keepthefaith]

God Bless you Kermit!Thank You...

[Kermit]

Klyes email: I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.
 
From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120

[Kermit]

God Bless you Kermit!Thank You...

Thank you for your kind words. It means a lot.

It ain't easy being green.

[Kermit]

In all of this there are only two things that matter: bring Natalee home and to give peace and closure to her family. All this sue this person or that person or anything else cannot compare to the agony Beth must endure every waking moment. People who want justice for Natalee, if that's what they REALLY want and are not after personal glory for themselves, would not be threatening to me or anybody else. They'd just want the information to get into the right hands.

With that said.....
 

[Keepthefaith]

God Bless you Kermit!Thank You...

Thank you for your kind words. It means a lot.

It ain't easy being green.

It's good to know that there are voices speaking for those who have no voice!

[Keepthefaith]

Does anyone continue to get upset at this situation as i do??It's just beyond my comprehension as to why Kyle(OE),and or people aboard the Persistence could be apart of something like this..

[Rob]

In all of this there are only two things that matter: bring Natalee home and to give peace and closure to her family. All this sue this person or that person or anything else cannot compare to the agony Beth must endure every waking moment. People who want justice for Natalee, if that's what they REALLY want and are not after personal glory for themselves, would not be threatening to me or anybody else. They'd just want the information to get into the right hands.

With that said.....
 

Hi Kermie, tryin to lure the STEALTH OPERATOR outta her nook? 

Good Job, keep up the great work.

[Rob]

In all of this there are only two things that matter: bring Natalee home and to give peace and closure to her family. All this sue this person or that person or anything else cannot compare to the agony Beth must endure every waking moment. People who want justice for Natalee, if that's what they REALLY want and are not after personal glory for themselves, would not be threatening to me or anybody else. They'd just want the information to get into the right hands.

With that said.....
 

Hi Kermie, tryin to lure the STEALTH OPERATOR outta her nook? 

Good Job, keep up the great work.

let's try that again-

[caesu]

about this cage situation: i won't be make comments about that.
i found it way too disturbing, confusing and upsetting too.
pictures of that cage i block in my browser immediately.
i have the greatest respect for everyone who is doing research on that.
but i just can't look at that without my stomach going weird.

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman's words to a private site/emalils as well as the SM site confirm to a great extent what the ROV images appear to reveal.  Hey ... Tim Miller was 99% sure of what he observed in the ROV images.

It appears to me that loyalty to Kyle Kingman is where where it is at ... protecting him from any legal/moral consequences of his actions regarding the withholding of evidence related to the Natalee Holloway case from the FBI/family for his own self-serving reasons.  It appears that justice for Natalee Holloway has taken a back seat and ... that is so sad.

Please read Kyle Kingman words very carefully.  This young man held a very responsible position on board the Persistence.  Monkeys ... Kyle's words posted on a private site/emails speak for themselves.  The exchange on the SM site between Kermit and Kyle prior to the posting of the ROV images reveals that Kyle was furious that posts that he had submited to a private forum/emails were about to be brought to a public platform.

According to Kermit ... when Kyle first came back to the States from Aruba ... his intentions were honorable.  Kyle shared that is was planning on turning over the second set of ROV images to Beth/FBI.  Howevever ... it never happened.  Instead ... making deals with major networks was where it was at.

Kermit waited months for Kyle to do the right thing prior to posting the ROV images at the SM site  ... prior to posting Kyle's words at the SM site pertaining to the happenings on board the Persistence but ... after assuring that Beth and the FBI were informed.

Kyle's own words imply a John Silvetti/ALE connection ... a connection which appears to reveal that justice for Natalee Holloway and ... closure for the family was never a consideration in regards to the Persistence undertaking.

Monkeys ... justice for Natalee Holloway is never going to come from an Aruban or Dutch court but ... a measure of closure may be possible for her family if it is exposed that Natalee Holloway's remains were in that trap/cage.

Janet

++++++++

KYLE KINGMAN'S POSTS TO A PRIVATE FORUM

Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

Kyle: None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th.

Kyle: I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal.

Kyle: In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric

Kyle: The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle: They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th

Kyle: John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis

Kyle: John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word

Kyle: John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability

Kyle: John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again.

Kyle: Schafer is sue crazy.

Kyle: I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.

Kyle: We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.

Kyle: We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap.

Kyle: I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal.

Kyle: Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday. Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

Kyle: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days.

Kyle: I couldn't get the logs from the Persistence. All things "Holloway" were stripped from the boat once it got back to Louisiana

Kyle: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

Klye: We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap.

Kyle: neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge.

Kyle: John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship.

Kyle: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle: I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

kyle: Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder
 
 
KYLE KINGMAN'S POSTS TO THE SCARED MONKEYS FORUM

oceanexploration: "Thought you all may find this interesting if you're willing to accept it-To date, the Aruban police and dive team has been a tremendous help.  They've honestly done a great job. Over the last month we've established a very good working relationship based on openness and trust.  Most of the relationship success was due to getting the media out of the way and working together shoulder to shoulder over time.  We've helped each other however and whenever we can.  They've treated us with decency and respect and we have treated them as friends and allies, which they are. Most of the police and divers are new since this case started and both eager and careful to do things right.  I wish we had a month ahead of the project just to establish the relationships and trust. I know many of you would likely doubt this view, but it's based on the experiences in the field of the entire search team. I too was extremely worried, paranoid, and suspecting in the beginning.  Now, it's clear we're all working towards a common goal." 
oceanexploration: "We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE."

 
BROTHER OF BETH HOLLOWAY'S POST TO THE SCARED MONKEYS FORUM

Private Eye: If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy.  The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.
 
 
THE ROV IMAGES

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #408 on: November 24, 2008, 03:59:08 PM »

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555618#msg555618
 
 
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #410 on: November 24, 2008, 04:01:55 PM »

Photos given to the FBI sent to Dave and Robin posted on the internet are NOT the
photos posted above.  These were not given to the FBI until recently.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg555621#msg555621
 
++++++++++
 
Kyle Kingman
Senior Geophysical Project Manager at Alpine Ocean Seismic Survey Inc.
Greater New York City Area

Current
Senior Geophysical Operations Manager at Alpine Ocean Seismic Survey Inc.
 
Past
Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
 
Education
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick
 
Industry
Oil & Energy
 
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464

[Magnolia]

I wanted to believe Caps.  I didn't do all of the research on his
posts like Mum and SS and others did, but I followed what was
posted everyday.  I felt thankful that somebody from Aruba was
finally willing to do something to help. 
I soon realized that Caps was using Shango/Simian to get a story
across.  He was not solving the riddle, he was making it up as he
went along and his timing was suspect. Why did Caps wait till the
Persistence search to begin posting?
Kermit warned us to "Stay focused, Monkeys."
Kermit sent the pictures that we have seen lately to Beth
in early March.  That is how PI saw them.
When PI posted here about the denim.  Kyle was clearly shocked
and asked PI to contact him privately.
Then after Kermit posted the pictures and Kyle's words here,
Caps came on and said that Natalee was chopped up into
little pieces.  I do not think that was true, but was said
by Caps because he was mad that the pictures had been
exposed.   JMO

I'm with you. Caps was always trying to make Shango/Simian "fit" into his story. When we came up with contradictory evidence -- he would always change or alter his "theory". Caps is a diversion - IMO

I think we were conned by Caps and at least John Silvetti.
I think Tim Miller was conned as well.  They needed Tim in
the "new witness" story to make it seem believable.

I agree with your post Magnolia.  The only part I disagree with was being conned by Caps.  I was never conned.  Once I don't agree with what a poster is saying I basically don't follow what they have to say anymore.  This is a fault of mine in life.  I basically tune the person out.

Others have strong feelings about him and the work he has done and that is fine.  We can't all agree.

I did the same thing when Patrick released the tape of him and Joran in the car.  I never trusted Patrick and always thought he was a lowlife.

This is just my opinion.

Well, San, you are smarter than the average monkey!
You even saw through Mos very early on, when most of us were
hoping he was legit.

[San]

I wanted to believe Caps.  I didn't do all of the research on his
posts like Mum and SS and others did, but I followed what was
posted everyday.  I felt thankful that somebody from Aruba was
finally willing to do something to help. 
I soon realized that Caps was using Shango/Simian to get a story
across.  He was not solving the riddle, he was making it up as he
went along and his timing was suspect. Why did Caps wait till the
Persistence search to begin posting?
Kermit warned us to "Stay focused, Monkeys."
Kermit sent the pictures that we have seen lately to Beth
in early March.  That is how PI saw them.
When PI posted here about the denim.  Kyle was clearly shocked
and asked PI to contact him privately.
Then after Kermit posted the pictures and Kyle's words here,
Caps came on and said that Natalee was chopped up into
little pieces.  I do not think that was true, but was said
by Caps because he was mad that the pictures had been
exposed.   JMO

I'm with you. Caps was always trying to make Shango/Simian "fit" into his story. When we came up with contradictory evidence -- he would always change or alter his "theory". Caps is a diversion - IMO

I think we were conned by Caps and at least John Silvetti.
I think Tim Miller was conned as well.  They needed Tim in
the "new witness" story to make it seem believable.

I agree with your post Magnolia.  The only part I disagree with was being conned by Caps.  I was never conned.  Once I don't agree with what a poster is saying I basically don't follow what they have to say anymore.  This is a fault of mine in life.  I basically tune the person out.

Others have strong feelings about him and the work he has done and that is fine.  We can't all agree.

I did the same thing when Patrick released the tape of him and Joran in the car.  I never trusted Patrick and always thought he was a lowlife.

This is just my opinion.

Well, San, you are smarter than the average monkey!
You even saw through Mos very early on, when most of us were
hoping he was legit.

You are smart Magnolia and have a good memory.  I did call Mos a POS a few times didn't I