Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 - 12/31/08

[truthseeker2]

truthseeker

Thank you for your response and ... I mean it.

Janet

I am glad that you do.  You and I are not enemies.  We just approach things differently.

[texasmom]

Hello Monekys,

Thank you Klaas for approving my membership.

I am the former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator.

To answer ldstlou - NO, I am not disgruntled.  No, I am no longer a member at that forum.  I resigned today.

That is an outstanding group of people, with hearts of gold.  I admire and respect each and every one of them.

It was merely time for me to move on.  I felt that we had achieved all we could there over the past 2 1/2 years, and all of the Freebirds - former and current - will always be in my heart.

Kermit did the right thing by making this information public at Beth Holloway's request (albeit 2 months after she asked us to do so thanks to the need to avoid litigation).

I just simply couldn't stand by any longer and watch the continued confusion perpetrated by two particular posters here.  Whether it's been unintentional or deliberate - it really needs to stop now.

Wingnut made an excellent point - and I feel it's one that's been largely overlooked - pressure needs to be applied to get the answers as to what happened to the human remains Aruba recovered from that fishing cage.

Monkeys - you all are stellar at banding together and getting action.

The FBI can only do so much - with their limited jurisdiction.  They can speak to and subpoena from the members of the Persistence their statements and video to ascertain what was found.

Then it becomes an international issue.  Our State Department is where the encouragement is needed - to put pressure on the Hague to get to the bottom of this.

But something must be done.  Natalee's family has been through enough, and that they (and Natalee) were treated so shabbily by the one resource they felt they could trust is utterly heart wrenching.

Thank you Monkeys for allowing me to be here - let's help Natalee's family get some justice!

Welcome to Scared Monkeys Jen!  And thank you!  

[ldstlou]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

[Keepthefaith]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

How can Kyle expose something he didn't turn over to the proper authorities,and or family in due diligence????

[Kermit]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

If it's credit you want to give Kyle - go for it!
Kyle exposed it to whom?
He tried to sell the ROV footage!

[hotping]

Hello Monekys,

Thank you Klaas for approving my membership.

I am the former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator.

To answer ldstlou - NO, I am not disgruntled.  No, I am no longer a member at that forum.  I resigned today.

That is an outstanding group of people, with hearts of gold.  I admire and respect each and every one of them.

It was merely time for me to move on.  I felt that we had achieved all we could there over the past 2 1/2 years, and all of the Freebirds - former and current - will always be in my heart.

Kermit did the right thing by making this information public at Beth Holloway's request (albeit 2 months after she asked us to do so thanks to the need to avoid litigation).

I just simply couldn't stand by any longer and watch the continued confusion perpetrated by two particular posters here.  Whether it's been unintentional or deliberate - it really needs to stop now.

Wingnut made an excellent point - and I feel it's one that's been largely overlooked - pressure needs to be applied to get the answers as to what happened to the human remains Aruba recovered from that fishing cage.

Monkeys - you all are stellar at banding together and getting action.

The FBI can only do so much - with their limited jurisdiction.  They can speak to and subpoena from the members of the Persistence their statements and video to ascertain what was found.

Then it becomes an international issue.  Our State Department is where the encouragement is needed - to put pressure on the Hague to get to the bottom of this.

But something must be done.  Natalee's family has been through enough, and that they (and Natalee) were treated so shabbily by the one resource they felt they could trust is utterly heart wrenching.

Thank you Monkeys for allowing me to be here - let's help Natalee's family get some justice!

Thank you Jen as well as th Freebirds.If Kyle has mislead the Freebirds as well as Monkey's.Why and who is continuing to defend him..Kyle is more then welcome to answer questions for himself...Correct me if i'm wrong!TIA

He doesn't want to. You all can call him out every day...he doesn't feel the need to defend himself and frankly I agree with him. If Beth or Dave have questions for him, they know how to contact him. He doesn't owe the Scared Monkeys anything. This is your beef not his. He chooses not to get involved. That is his right and his choice.

Can't You just drop it and let things fall the way they may....Kyle can come here anytime He chooses to state whatever He chooses but You need to let Him be a big boy and deliver the message Himself.....Let Him do His on talking!  Please!

[Keepthefaith]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

Did Kermit not give Kyle every opportunity to turn everything he had,as well as knew over to the Holloway's as well as the FBI?Did he do it?From what i've read.NO..Correct me if i'm wrong..

[wingnut]

Hi Jen, Hi Kermit.  A reunion of sorts.  I have missed posting with you, ya little Hopper!  And Jen - you have done a wonderful job of giving us a peaceful place to work on documents for so long.  Thank you, and I will miss you. 

Jen is right - the hearts of the Freebirds are golden.  We have worked tirelessly to post factual information - derived from the posts and publications pertaining to the case.  That has not changed.  Confidentiality?  Pfffft.  I will not hide behind a confidentiality agreement when morally convicted.  Keep MY daughter's resting place and remains secret, and I will pursue your azz to the ends of the earth.   

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

How can Kyle expose something he didn't turn over to the proper authorities,and or family in due diligence????

ummmm...I'll say it again...kermit copied and posted Kyle's info...she reiterated what he said...so where's the cover-up if he said it.

[Kermit]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

So according to your thinking, the evidence should still be waiting for Kyle or John Silvetti to sell it?

You see a crime, you don't tell is that it?

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

If it's credit you want to give Kyle - go for it!
Kyle exposed it to whom?
He tried to sell the ROV footage!

your point being?

[Kermit]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

Did Kermit not give Kyle every opportunity to turn everything he had,as well as knew over to the Holloway's as well as the FBI?Did he do it?From what i've read.NO..Correct me if i'm wrong..

You are not wrong.
In fact, I have proof of permission from the family.

[ldstlou]

Hello Monekys,

Thank you Klaas for approving my membership.

I am the former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator.

To answer ldstlou - NO, I am not disgruntled.  No, I am no longer a member at that forum.  I resigned today.

That is an outstanding group of people, with hearts of gold.  I admire and respect each and every one of them.

It was merely time for me to move on.  I felt that we had achieved all we could there over the past 2 1/2 years, and all of the Freebirds - former and current - will always be in my heart.

Kermit did the right thing by making this information public at Beth Holloway's request (albeit 2 months after she asked us to do so thanks to the need to avoid litigation).

I just simply couldn't stand by any longer and watch the continued confusion perpetrated by two particular posters here.  Whether it's been unintentional or deliberate - it really needs to stop now.

Wingnut made an excellent point - and I feel it's one that's been largely overlooked - pressure needs to be applied to get the answers as to what happened to the human remains Aruba recovered from that fishing cage.

Monkeys - you all are stellar at banding together and getting action.

The FBI can only do so much - with their limited jurisdiction.  They can speak to and subpoena from the members of the Persistence their statements and video to ascertain what was found.

Then it becomes an international issue.  Our State Department is where the encouragement is needed - to put pressure on the Hague to get to the bottom of this.

But something must be done.  Natalee's family has been through enough, and that they (and Natalee) were treated so shabbily by the one resource they felt they could trust is utterly heart wrenching.

Thank you Monkeys for allowing me to be here - let's help Natalee's family get some justice!

So then you are no longer a Freebird..is that correct? So then to say that your letter is from the "Freebird's"..is that incorrect? Did the current members endorse your letter?

bump

[Tamikosmom]

Klaas

I messed up again.  Please edit my post 490.

Hey ... no Monkey or Freebird was on that ship.

My New Year's resolution is to never never bother you again in regards to editing my posts.  The way I look at it ... I still have a couple of days of grace.

 

Thanks

Janet

[Keepthefaith]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

How can Kyle expose something he didn't turn over to the proper authorities,and or family in due diligence????

ummmm...I'll say it again...kermit copied and posted Kyle's info...she reiterated what he said...so where's the cover-up if he said it.

Again ldstlou.Did Kyle turn over everything he had pertaining to Natalee's search in Due diligence to the family as well as the FBI?Yes or No?

[ldstlou]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

Did Kermit not give Kyle every opportunity to turn everything he had,as well as knew over to the Holloway's as well as the FBI?Did he do it?From what i've read.NO..Correct me if i'm wrong..

You are not wrong.
In fact, I have proof of permission from the family.

the e-mail you posted?

[truthseeker2]

truthseeker

I would sincerely appreciate your perspective on this topic when the confirmation from the Freebird's former administrator is considered.  Has it changed?

Thank you.

Janet

++++++

I think the postings about Kyle have been too harsh.  He clearly expressed his concerns all along and provided tons of info that would never have been available otherwise.  I also agree that some of what he said may have been taken out of context.  It's easy to question everything he did in retrospect, but I think he did his best functioning in a complex situation and had good intentions.  Sometimes things are not black and white, and of course he has to protect himself and his livelihood and reputation.  I think it was a mistake to alienate him, and I don't think he owes it to SM to defend himself.  Sometimes you are placed in a situation where it's a no-win no matter what you do. And using his religious beliefs to try to get him to come back and explain seems cruel. 

Thank you!!  Well said.

No, Janet, it hasn't.  We still have no idea what was in that trap.  That has been my perspective from the very beginning.  That has not changed.  The idea that I like coming to SM to see the same thing posted over and over and over has not changed either.  I have the same goal as every other person who posts at this site.  I just do not get the same level respect.  And...heaven forbid you decide to make me your next target. Why...I shake in my boots.  But, I guess that is the type of thing that makes it all go 'round for some.

Me, as I have stated before, I am an analyst...and a damn good one.  I still do not see any facts indicating there were human remains in that trap.  Are we to assume that as fact because Kyle says so?  From what I can tell from most of the posts here lately...he is not to be believed.  Which is it?  Is he trutworthy or not?  So for me, until it is proven that human remains were found and that those human remains were Natalee's I will keep looking for answers.

Also, as an analyst, I fully understand contract work and the use/non-use of intellectual property.  Kyle may have disseminated that information within violation of a contract, and therefore his azz would be on the line.  If he is wrong, and he may be wrong, he may never be able to work again in his current capacity.  For whatever reason, he chose to do what he did.  I was not there, so I cannot and do not judge his actions. 

I accept the information regading the contents of the trap for what it is...his opinion...nothing more.  Calling him out on a forum day in and day out has not changed any of the known facts about Natalee.  It's all supposition.  I hope that someone has the where with all to get to the bottom of it, like our FBI.  But, they have had this information for a while now and we have not heard a word from them as to any future investigation.  We are only hearing a request for further investigations from the Netherlands.

And I also agree with whoever posted last night....trying to appeal to someone's faith is a personal thing...people can do that in open forums if they like.  It's not something I would do.

Back to lurking and researching......

I'm not answering for Janet,

But I just wanted to give you my own opinion.
Kyle said it was remains and considering he is the geophysicist who knows how to interpret the information he sees, then I tended to believe him. In addition, I didn't think it was highly likely that he'd be trying to sell the ROV footage to producers if it was a sponge or rock.

Also, I believe, that Tim Miller has seen enough skulls to be able to differentiate real from fake. I think he saw what he says he saw.

And why would only Aruban divers sweep in, collect the material fromt he trap if it was not important. Why dive and spend money to collect a sponge or rock?

So...where are the supportive comments of the Mansurs?  Jossy's son was there.  He should know.  Why has he not come out with this 'story'?  I am asking this with all seriousness.  I am considering ALL information here.  If the Mansurs are supporting the family they way we think they are, would they let the fact the human remains were found and that those remains were Natalee's go by the wayside?  Jossy has supported the arrest of the Van Der Sloots for a while now.  Having those remians would certainly make a good case for putting at least Joran back in jail.

But we have not heard anything from Eduardo or Jossy.

So...were those really remains down there and if so, whose?  I know.  We have all been asking that question and the email from Freebirds has not been able to answer that.  I do not mean that as a slam, just that I do not see any new information.

[jen3560]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

I think you may have missed the point entirely.

I am the one who wrote the TOS at Natalee's Freebirds.  It is those TOS that every member has to abide by.  There was no confidentiality agreement by ANY member that supercedes the TOS of the forum.  The TOS provide for that eventuality.

Please stop concerning yourself with some "confidentiality agreement" that never existed in the first place.

The real truth of the matter is - it was all about money.  By Freebirds going public with the information Kyle provided, that would have squelched the deal Kyle told us Shaefer made for a documentary.

That's it.  That's the sum total of it.

Kermit violated no TOS, as he posted here after he resigned from the forum.  I deactivated his account at Freebirds after he did so.  Does that make you feel better?

Now - can we PLEASE get back to the ACTUAL issue here?

What did Aruba do with those remains, and why did they send the FBI some fraudulent piece of material to test?

Why did it take Dolph Richardson two weeks after receiving the items personally, to hand over lord only knows what to the FBI for testing?

And why did every single member aboard the Persistence look the other way?

[Kermit]

ldstlou - I know you are only trying to stand up and protect Kyle and the crew of the Persistence against those who may have questions regarding some of the things Kyle has said, etc.

You are standing up for what you believe in and that is to be commended, however, what if you are wrong?  I'm not saying it's so but what if you and Natalee's family are being lied to?

When things don't seem right, we take a closer look.   Is that so wrong?

Hypothetical:

One of Joran's friends is posting in a private invite only forum where the members sign a confidentiality agreement not to copy and paste info posted in the forum on the outside.  This friend tells of information that would solve the case and put Joran in jail for the rest of his life.  Do you tell others about this or do you honor the confidentiality agreement?

In the example above would a confidentiality agreement make any difference to you?  It would not to me.

So the FBI were informed, JQK was informed, Beth was informed according to Kermit. I don't see them going after Kyle...so why is Kermit here on SM going after Kyle and the crew of the Persistence?

Kermit informed Beth. Yes.
Kermit is NOT going after Kyle.
Kermit posted the truth to expose the Aruba cover-up

Kermit...come on. IF the Arubans walked away with Natalee...it was Kyle who exposed it not you.

If it's credit you want to give Kyle - go for it!
Kyle exposed it to whom?
He tried to sell the ROV footage!

your point being?

Kyle specifically stated he tried to "strike a deal" to sell the ROV photos of what he stated he believed to be the remains of Natalee Holloway.

How come you think that is okay?

[ldstlou]

From where i sit in Seattle ldstlou it seems from my perspective your only problem is the disemination of the information to people other then the Freebirds!Why?And do correct me if i'm wrong.

Part of it yes. Because my understanding is that there was an agreement to keep the info confidential..and that bothers me.

But the other part is that Kyle wasn't hiding anything that I can see. He was discussing his concerns openly in that forum. Concerns about the Arubans not the members of the Persitence. So why degrade and bastardize the hard work of those members who went out looking for Natalee.

So according to your thinking, the evidence should still be waiting for Kyle or John Silvetti to sell it?

You see a crime, you don't tell is that it?

I will ask again...do the current Freebirds endorse your actions or views?