Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 - 12/31/08

[Keepthefaith]

Have you seen the video where it appears Tim says "Bullshit" wingnut??I believe it's in the Dateline video..We had the discussion before and i think he clearly says that..

[truthseeker2]

I would expect with all the revelations made by Kyle he would have at least mentioned that to bolster his suspicions.  Also, on Dateline, Trahan comes out of the water and on to the boat and says "Nothing" with people all around.  No one questioned it.  Tim Miller was speaking to Dateline after that and he didn't say anything about seeing anything on the monitor at that moment.  So what did it look like to them?  I know, it's a rhetorical question and no one here would be able to answer, but it's still on my mind as a huge question.

We discussed this before Truthseeker2 regarding Tim M.If you watch Tim in the video on dateline he say's "Bullshit" to the signal.Someone is probably quicker then i in retrieving that specific video!

I know.  But, that's it?  Not, wait just a minute...look at that...or, what the h3ll is that right there?  If I thought I was looking at possible human remains , but someone else dismissed it so quickly I think I would have to push the issue just a bit more.  Especially with an American film crew right there to capture it.  So, I have to wonder what that image looked like on that monitor at that very moment.  And has Tim M. come out since then to say that he still believes those were human remains?   I just don't know.

[truthseeker2]

Just a thought, Kyle is the one who suggested the size of the trap.  We really don't know for sure the exact size except from what he has said.

Well...then when do we decide what things to believe?  Do we discard the cage measurments, but believe that those are human remains, or vice versa?

I'm not sold on that being a skull, but the other bone looks pretty similar to a human hip joint.

I believe that it was a skull but maybe not all of it.......like maybe parts were missing at the bottom....JMO

That could be.  It's just hard to tell from this pic.  I still want to know why no one, even Tim Miller and Dateline, did not question the thumbs down if this image was taken 60 seconds after that thumbs down.  I think that is one of the reasons why I have been skeptical about what we are seeing with that pic.

IIRC, there was to be a "thumbs up" if immediately recognizable as Natalee.  A "thumbs down" if not.  So, based on what we (and they) have seen, a "thumbs down" WAS APPROPRIATE.

I think the information we received was a two thumbs up for if it's Natalee and one thumbs up for human remains not readily identifiable.  There was not thumbs down.  Is that not right?

[texasmom]

Just a thought, Kyle is the one who suggested the size of the trap.  We really don't know for sure the exact size except from what he has said.

Well...then when do we decide what things to believe?  Do we discard the cage measurments, but believe that those are human remains, or vice versa?

I'm not sold on that being a skull, but the other bone looks pretty similar to a human hip joint.

I believe that it was a skull but maybe not all of it.......like maybe parts were missing at the bottom....JMO

That could be.  It's just hard to tell from this pic.  I still want to know why no one, even Tim Miller and Dateline, did not question the thumbs down if this image was taken 60 seconds after that thumbs down.  I think that is one of the reasons why I have been skeptical about what we are seeing with that pic.

IIRC, there was to be a "thumbs up" if immediately recognizable as Natalee.  A "thumbs down" if not.  So, based on what we (and they) have seen, a "thumbs down" WAS APPROPRIATE.

I think the information we received was a two thumbs up for if it's Natalee and one thumbs up for human remains not readily identifiable.  There was not thumbs down.  Is that not right?

Yes, I believe that's how Kyle explained it in a post he made here.

[Keepthefaith]

I would expect with all the revelations made by Kyle he would have at least mentioned that to bolster his suspicions.  Also, on Dateline, Trahan comes out of the water and on to the boat and says "Nothing" with people all around.  No one questioned it.  Tim Miller was speaking to Dateline after that and he didn't say anything about seeing anything on the monitor at that moment.  So what did it look like to them?  I know, it's a rhetorical question and no one here would be able to answer, but it's still on my mind as a huge question.

We discussed this before Truthseeker2 regarding Tim M.If you watch Tim in the video on dateline he say's "Bullshit" to the signal.Someone is probably quicker then i in retrieving that specific video!

I know.  But, that's it?  Not, wait just a minute...look at that...or, what the h3ll is that right there?  If I thought I was looking at possible human remains , but someone else dismissed it so quickly I think I would have to push the issue just a bit more.  Especially with an American film crew right there to capture it.  So, I have to wonder what that image looked like on that monitor at that very moment.  And has Tim M. come out since then to say that he still believes those were human remains?   I just don't know.

I would think in private he's said his peace but i'm definitely not in the know!I think that's why what the Persistence didn't do is so alarming to me!Only if we had the logs of when people where onboard as well as off!Protocol.From what i understand we won't get those answer's from anyone on the Persistence.It's unfortunate.We must continue to question everything.I belive the concentration of power is in few hands on Aruba and if Paulus is connected to that power structure someone in the Mansur family has to know something.Whether Jossy personally knows?It remains to be seen.The Mansur's,The Croes,The Oduber's.Who else is in the power structure??

[Keepthefaith]

Janet's still here...

[Tamikosmom]

I think it's quite possible that Tim Miller did question it.  I was told several months ago that there was a disagreement on the boat between Tim Miller and John Silvetti.  I never knew exactly when the disagreement happened, but believe that it did.  Some have said that the Dateline crew and Tim Miller left after the Dec 30th dive; could the disagreement have been on or around this date and caused by Tim Miller asking questions?  I think maybe so.  But I have no information to prove it one way or the other.

It was difficult for Tim Miller to comprehend the official findings in regards to the contents of the cage.  He had been so sure that the initial ROV images he viewed prior to the dive revealed the remains of Natalee Holloway.

I imagine when all was said and done he had no choice but to accept the official findings.  I do not believe it would never have ever occur to him that there was a conspiracy encompassing the Persistence endeavor.

I contend that Tim Miller was also betrayed.  His organization was used as a means for raising funds to support a cause ... a cause that never existed.

Janet

+++++++

THE DATELINE SPECIAL

The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

Tim Miller: I stepped on the boat and said “Natalee we're coming to get you.” Now we're finally coming to get you. And I still believe that from the bottom of my heart. She's out here and now we're on our way.

Over the holiday season, the crew of the persistence worked day and night to survey the ocean floor and look for targets that could hold the key to finding Natalee.

On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  ... In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap. [/color]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure."  He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--"he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »

Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


oceanexploration (Kyle Kingman)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #776 11/19-08
« Reply #705 on: November 20, 2008, 11:22:14 PM »

Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4153.msg551304#msg551304

[truthseeker2]

I would expect with all the revelations made by Kyle he would have at least mentioned that to bolster his suspicions.  Also, on Dateline, Trahan comes out of the water and on to the boat and says "Nothing" with people all around.  No one questioned it.  Tim Miller was speaking to Dateline after that and he didn't say anything about seeing anything on the monitor at that moment.  So what did it look like to them?  I know, it's a rhetorical question and no one here would be able to answer, but it's still on my mind as a huge question.

We discussed this before Truthseeker2 regarding Tim M.If you watch Tim in the video on dateline he say's "Bullshit" to the signal.Someone is probably quicker then i in retrieving that specific video!

I know.  But, that's it?  Not, wait just a minute...look at that...or, what the h3ll is that right there?  If I thought I was looking at possible human remains , but someone else dismissed it so quickly I think I would have to push the issue just a bit more.  Especially with an American film crew right there to capture it.  So, I have to wonder what that image looked like on that monitor at that very moment.  And has Tim M. come out since then to say that he still believes those were human remains?   I just don't know.

I would think in private he's said his peace but i'm definitely not in the know!I think that's why what the Persistence didn't do is so alarming to me!Only if we had the logs of when people where onboard as well as off!Protocol.From what i understand we won't get those answer's from anyone on the Persistence.It's unfortunate.We must continue to question everything.I belive the concentration of power is in few hands on Aruba and if Paulus is connected to that power structure someone in the Mansur family has to know something.Whether Jossy personally knows?It remains to be seen.The Mansur's,The Croes,The Oduber's.Who else is in the power structure??

Bingo.  These are the people that know.  I wish we could hear from Eduardo about his impression of what was in that trap.

[Tamikosmom]

Janet's still here...

Hubby is in our vehicle in the driveway.  The sound of the revving causes me to think that a "beep" on the horn will follow shortly.

I had better go or ... the guy may just take off without me.  So far ... it has only happened in his dreams.

 

Janet

[San]

Good Evening,

First, I would like to take a second to acknowledge Peaches and her determination to beat cancer. It was one of the bravest battles I have ever witnessed and I learned a lot from her. She will be sorely missed. My thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Peaches and their lovely daughter. I hope that God grants them the strength they will all need over the remainders of their own lives.

God Bless you Peaches and your family, you are in my prayers.

+++++

I have kinda been biting my tongue on the whole Freebird issue. Yes, I was a Freebird too and know them all. They are some of the best of the best. They are some of the most compassionate, caring and kind people I have ever gotten to know. Jen is a real sweetheart that gave so much of herself over the last few years that words can't really express my gratitude for her efforts. She is to be thanked along with everyone else still there and giving so much of themselves.

If they did not have the forum this info would most likely never have been known. So, there is a reason for everything and a cause and goal brought them together. They have remained true to their stated intent and each other.

When evidence of a crime was discovered, they did the right thing - they exposed it. That's what I have come to expect from such a loyal and devoted group. Their devotion to Natalee is unquestionable.

As, I told you a month or so ago, Kermit was always telling the truth. How do I know? I know because I know what makes Kermit tick and got to know her and her values. Those are some of the staunchest values on any board. When you are true to your own beliefs, well, you are never making a mistake.
+++

Wingnut - good to see you again my friend, happy holidays to you and yours'.

Jen I wish you the best no matter where your heart takes you!

This is why I always believed Kermit.  You can tell how a person posts.

[Tamikosmom]

Klaas/Mods

Please delete post 665.  I messed up again.

Thanks

Janet

[Keepthefaith]

I would expect with all the revelations made by Kyle he would have at least mentioned that to bolster his suspicions.  Also, on Dateline, Trahan comes out of the water and on to the boat and says "Nothing" with people all around.  No one questioned it.  Tim Miller was speaking to Dateline after that and he didn't say anything about seeing anything on the monitor at that moment.  So what did it look like to them?  I know, it's a rhetorical question and no one here would be able to answer, but it's still on my mind as a huge question.

We discussed this before Truthseeker2 regarding Tim M.If you watch Tim in the video on dateline he say's "Bullshit" to the signal.Someone is probably quicker then i in retrieving that specific video!

I know.  But, that's it?  Not, wait just a minute...look at that...or, what the h3ll is that right there?  If I thought I was looking at possible human remains , but someone else dismissed it so quickly I think I would have to push the issue just a bit more.  Especially with an American film crew right there to capture it.  So, I have to wonder what that image looked like on that monitor at that very moment.  And has Tim M. come out since then to say that he still believes those were human remains?   I just don't know.

I would think in private he's said his peace but i'm definitely not in the know!I think that's why what the Persistence didn't do is so alarming to me!Only if we had the logs of when people where onboard as well as off!Protocol.From what i understand we won't get those answer's from anyone on the Persistence.It's unfortunate.We must continue to question everything.I belive the concentration of power is in few hands on Aruba and if Paulus is connected to that power structure someone in the Mansur family has to know something.Whether Jossy personally knows?It remains to be seen.The Mansur's,The Croes,The Oduber's.Who else is in the power structure??

Bingo.  These are the people that know.  I wish we could hear from Eduardo about his impression of what was in that trap.

Why do they know is my question?It goes back to what does Paulus do for people that is so important as to protect him till the ends of the Earth??Where and how do alll the se families co -mingle on the island?They've got to come across one another quite often.It's got to be BIG,BIG..All they had to do was let Natalee go home but NO!Why.Still on the hunt for    ......................................JUSTICE FOR NATALEE..............................................

[klaasend]

TONIGHT - YEAR END SPECIAL - DANA PRETZER - tune in at 9pm ET:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/12/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-dana-does-the-year-in-review-with-guests-robin-sax-and-red/

[hotping]

Thank You Klaas for the Reminder about the Show! 

[truthseeker2]

I would expect with all the revelations made by Kyle he would have at least mentioned that to bolster his suspicions.  Also, on Dateline, Trahan comes out of the water and on to the boat and says "Nothing" with people all around.  No one questioned it.  Tim Miller was speaking to Dateline after that and he didn't say anything about seeing anything on the monitor at that moment.  So what did it look like to them?  I know, it's a rhetorical question and no one here would be able to answer, but it's still on my mind as a huge question.

We discussed this before Truthseeker2 regarding Tim M.If you watch Tim in the video on dateline he say's "Bullshit" to the signal.Someone is probably quicker then i in retrieving that specific video!

I know.  But, that's it?  Not, wait just a minute...look at that...or, what the h3ll is that right there?  If I thought I was looking at possible human remains , but someone else dismissed it so quickly I think I would have to push the issue just a bit more.  Especially with an American film crew right there to capture it.  So, I have to wonder what that image looked like on that monitor at that very moment.  And has Tim M. come out since then to say that he still believes those were human remains?   I just don't know.

I would think in private he's said his peace but i'm definitely not in the know!I think that's why what the Persistence didn't do is so alarming to me!Only if we had the logs of when people where onboard as well as off!Protocol.From what i understand we won't get those answer's from anyone on the Persistence.It's unfortunate.We must continue to question everything.I belive the concentration of power is in few hands on Aruba and if Paulus is connected to that power structure someone in the Mansur family has to know something.Whether Jossy personally knows?It remains to be seen.The Mansur's,The Croes,The Oduber's.Who else is in the power structure??

Bingo.  These are the people that know.  I wish we could hear from Eduardo about his impression of what was in that trap.

Why do they know is my question?It goes back to what does Paulus do for people that is so important as to protect him till the ends of the Earth??Where and how do alll the se families co -mingle on the island?They've got to come across one another quite often.It's got to be BIG,BIG..All they had to do was let Natalee go home but NO!Why.Still on the hunt for    ......................................JUSTICE FOR NATALEE..............................................

I have asked this question in a slightly different way.  I ask myself...What could be sooo bad that the people on that island do not want the world to know?  What could be so bad that putting Joran and even his father in jail for that they could not take credit for punishing the guilty?

Natalee's death could have been explained if it was truly an accident.  It could even be explained if it was an accident and the boys panicked and tried to hide the body.  But...they chose to protect this kid...why?  The idea that Joran and Paulus could/would expose some political secrets or the involvment of law enforcement?  Heck...these two are proven liars.  They could have denied anything Paulus or Joran had to say by exposing the lies told by them in the first few days.  And with Paulus being a 'failed judge in training' they could claim he was just a disgruntled government employee.  And as for any documentation that Paulus may have...well, we know from the Mathews case they know how to make documents disappear in Aruba.

So I ask myself....what truth is so horrific that they are willing to let the entire island suffer for it?????

[windy city]

Happy Holiday's Monkeys!

My prayers go out to Peaches and her family.  I enjoyed reading her posts very much.  She was a pillar of strength throughout her battle with cancer.  I don't know of many people who could endure what she did and remain so positive.

[Keepthefaith]

What are the biggest Money-producing industries on Aruba?Tourism,Importing/exporting,oil,casinos(laundering money),Banks(laundering money).Who owns them?

[windy city]

I don't post much but read often.   All I can say is WOW.  Whenever I want to know a fact or quote,  I always look for Janet.  I very much appreciate her wisdom, honesty,  and sense of humor.  If there is such a thing as a moral compass, it is Janet, imo. 

Janet has always been a very good judge of character and it is very hard to pull one over on her. (reminds me of my own mother who had to straighten my butt out a few years back) 

Kermit is the most honest and decent frog I have ever had the pleasure of reading.  This frog would leap the tallest buildings to find out the truth about Natalee.

I don't see the same conviction from another poster here who I once enjoyed reading.  I don't know if it's because this other poster is being mis led or because they are doing the mis leading.

My two cents 

[wingnut]

Just a thought, Kyle is the one who suggested the size of the trap.  We really don't know for sure the exact size except from what he has said.

Well...then when do we decide what things to believe?  Do we discard the cage measurments, but believe that those are human remains, or vice versa?

I'm not sold on that being a skull, but the other bone looks pretty similar to a human hip joint.

I believe that it was a skull but maybe not all of it.......like maybe parts were missing at the bottom....JMO

That could be.  It's just hard to tell from this pic.  I still want to know why no one, even Tim Miller and Dateline, did not question the thumbs down if this image was taken 60 seconds after that thumbs down.  I think that is one of the reasons why I have been skeptical about what we are seeing with that pic.

IIRC, there was to be a "thumbs up" if immediately recognizable as Natalee.  A "thumbs down" if not.  So, based on what we (and they) have seen, a "thumbs down" WAS APPROPRIATE.

I think the information we received was a two thumbs up for if it's Natalee and one thumbs up for human remains not readily identifiable.  There was not thumbs down.  Is that not right?

You are right - my bad.

-The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing". He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable. It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton. We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
Reply #736 on: Today at 12:05:16 PM »

[klaasend]

DANA PRETZER - YEAR END SPECIAL - IN 3 MINUTES

http://scaredmonkeys.com/radio.m3u