Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 - 12/31/08

[jen3560]

Buckeye - I admire and respect the way your mind works.

Remember, Freebirds always said "You Decide".

What is the truth?  Take the facts as we know them, remove emotion, feelings, and sometimes friendships as well - and just look at the facts.

What do the facts tell you is the truth?  You Decide.

I do have a little question.  JQK seemed to want to run with the trafficking story.  I just wonder if that is to bring the case to a level of international involvement.  This could permit an international investigation.  The investigation may come to the conclusion that there was no trafficking and the remains were hidden in a cage.  Is it important to "believe" in a bigger theory to legally involve more than internet posters and hidey hole sleuths??

That is precisely my take on it, Buckeye.

[Buckeye]

Here are some of those posts of HotShot's I was referring to, about removing evidence from the trap:

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #285 on: Today at 12:48:24 AM »

You all seem to jump to conclusions that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE....... Did you ever stop to think that maybe there was a reason they took off so fast? Do you really think they are that stupid to not cover their butts? Hellooooo, Tim has been through it already, many times. Loose lips do sink ships. Maybe we are not supposed to be discussing those things here for everyone like Aruba to read. ----------------------

November 24, 2008, 12:21:05 AM

And speaking of heros, if in deed any of the people from the Persistance does have any evidence that was tested here in the states, they are heros too.  After 3+ years of the BS going on in Aruba and their way of doing things, I sure would have taken evidence also.  not for me, for the family.  I have said that since we have known them to be messing with us.  "IF" Kermit was actually on this boat, she had to be from the Date Line Crew.  Kermit has to clear things from washington first?  Wow, thats a big step.  Who does she know?  Sure as hell DC didnt do anything to help the Holloways except for the Condi thing.  Which in all reality did nothing.  We all know that Joran will NEVER get charged, so what is the next best thing?  Getting real closure for the family, getting some thing of Natalee to bring home and bury?  Yes.  If any of this has to do with what I have just stated, then I say good for them.  It was nice enough for these gentlemen to go out of their way for months to go to a corrupt island, and looking for a missing girl on their time.  During the holidays to say the least.  I commend them.  No-one else would do it, and we all know Aruba wouldn't do it.  If they did scan for their pipe line, which I highly doubt, then so be it.  They searched for Natalee in the process.  Maybe they told Aruba they were there for that, and id the opposite.  who knows.  Either way, they are still heros in my mind, and this Kermit is not playing nice.  i don't know what she is trying to screw with, or what her motive is.  But in my opinion, "IF" any of this is to be true, I still say it's all good.  Markme as being bad, but I would have done the same thing, and maybe even I have

IIRC...The red refers to a sample of the white plastic-like stuff at the rocks...perhaps recovered on a Hotshot trip to Aruba...IIRC

[Magnolia]

I remember a post...I think.

What was Kyle doing with a shoe?  He is just a boat guy.

[jen3560]

That could very well be, Buckeye.

It just makes me wonder, since she also inserted herself into the whole caps/pond witness shenanigans.

Put that together with Caps' assertions that there is a sneaker and human remains in that pond.........well.

There cannot be 3 shoes.

One was in Joran's closet with blood on it, according to Beth.

One appears to have been in that cage on the ocean floor.

So where did the 3rd shoe come from that Caps says is in the pond?

Or is Caps not being truthful about that?

[Buckeye]

Buckeye - I admire and respect the way your mind works.

Remember, Freebirds always said "You Decide".

What is the truth?  Take the facts as we know them, remove emotion, feelings, and sometimes friendships as well - and just look at the facts.

What do the facts tell you is the truth?  You Decide.

I do have a little question.  JQK seemed to want to run with the trafficking story.  I just wonder if that is to bring the case to a level of international involvement.  This could permit an international investigation.  The investigation may come to the conclusion that there was no trafficking and the remains were hidden in a cage.  Is it important to "believe" in a bigger theory to legally involve more than internet posters and hidey hole sleuths??

That is precisely my take on it, Buckeye.

Hmmmmmm

I do believe a blond American girl, targeted for trafficking, requires investigating.  There are a lot of young, blond Americans traveling.

[Buckeye]

I tried to pay attention to Caps because Klaas vouched for who he was...not what he said...

Once the boolean math equations hit the boards, I really thought my time could be better spent elsewhere.

[klaasend]

I'm waiting for answer's but think i'll be waiting for a long time!This is for either ldstlou or Hotshot.Please explain to everyone who is not in the know as to why we shouldn't belive Kermit???I'll wait your answer...TIA

MumInOhio seems to have issues with Kermit also. I'd be interested in her take on why we should not believe Kermit...
I stand with the frog...
ps..i thought there was room for CAPS version being the "what happened to Natalee" and Kermit's version "on where Natalee ended up".
With all the Kermit bashing from a few, who incidentally offer not any backup, and the silence from Kyle and CAPS, "I'm inclined to believe" those attacking Kermit have a different agenda wrt Justice for Natalee....
IT IS ALL ABOUT GETTING NATALEE HOME after 3 + years! Justice will come, in this life or the next for the preps.

Itis all about getting Natalee back.  Not making something out  of nothing like kermit has done. She knows damn well it was upto others to get all information to  the FBI, and Kyles job did not include that....Silvetti was the head of this ship,  and what ever he has done, ishim.  Hedid go back to aruba,  why???  to search the pond again.  Not  to  strike up a deal with a pipeline.  Either you are with the Holloways or not, and when  you talk the  persistance down,  you are talking down about the holloways.... That is a back stabbing to them. No-one knows more then  us what they were  up against in aruba, more then we do.  i dont  think they were briefed to the fullest as to who to trust, or anything like that.  obviously silvetti was overtaken  by  the arubans.  I never said that kermit was all wrong, she just isn't all correct, and is taking some things out of context to suit her purpose.

I am not a drive by.  I work long hours now, I read in the morning when i wake up, go to work, get paid, come home, work again, eat, read again,  then  go to sleep an hour later.   dont  be calling me a driveby... once again, talking before you know the answers..

Sound like *******?  Well at least i sound like someone who is doing something, and not taking stuff from someone that is only trying to start trouble....so I take that as a compliment. 

I am sure I'll be banned next because  I dont  think like the majority here,so be it... So before i go to work, to all those who care, have a safe holiday, and a good new year...

No Klaas my other post was not a threat....

Again, sounds just like people that want to get banned.  No, I'm not going to ban you.  People get banned mostly because they act like a**holes.  Act like an a**hole and you will get banned, bottom line.  ******* and Destiny both acted like a**holes.  We don't need that here. 

[klaasend]

I tried to pay attention to Caps because Klaas vouched for who he was...not what he said...

Once the boolean math equations hit the boards, I really thought my time could be better spent elsewhere.

And I'm trying to figure out right now if I was conned.  I would not be the first time in this case.  I would still like to believe that Caps is one of the good guys but there are some things he has said that make me wonder.  Like Finngirl pointed out, Caps tried to tell us the intials for names are read last name first (not true). 

[RoxiBalboa]

Happy New Year's Monkeys

Just spent 2 hours getting caught up. Thanks Jen, Wingnut and Kermit! Anxiously awaiting Kermit's every word today.


((((Klaas)))))
I felt you deserved a hug, just cuz
You're karma is a beautiful thing, for some others, karma's a bitch

I tend to agree this started a simple, possibly accidental crime and spun out of control into a horrendous murder coverup. I just wonder how many people are kicking themselves for ever helping in that coverup. You know, its never too late to do the right thing, never too late.

[MuffyBee]

PM Klaas.
Good morning Monkeys. 

[truthseeker2]

Does anyone ever get up, walk from their computer, and bang their head against the wall? Sometimes I can't seem to wrap my brain around what is fact and what is fiction.

daily, sometimes hourly

Was this:
...a contrived plot, full of of drugs, porn videos, secret Lion's Dens, full of Elders, with a subplot of Columbian and Venezuelan druglords, high powered speedboats, casino mobsters. Sprinkle in (various) ponds, chocolate, ants, lighthouses, rock painting crews, Hitler references, mysterious witnesses, etc...

OR

...a group of locals, who spiked a girls drink (as probably done before to "last night" female tourists) seeking to have fun with a disadvantaged and unsuspecting girl. After (unexpected) accidental death, panick ensued and the father (who is known to be trained in the legal profession and has contacts) for advice. Rather than be faced with the negative stigma and bad publicity, a decision was made to dispose of, rather than report, the death. Due to the size and population of the island, and for fear of a black eye to a tourism industry, which masks other money related washing machine industries, close friends (who held prominent positions) went to work and sabotaged the investigation in an attempt to make it simply "go away." When international media descended, and because of lack of experience, they became defensive. Everyone clammed up. Strategies were put in place by high-powered minds to distract, disinform, and disrupt the heat. To this day, they continue to stick to their guns, never giving in to pressure and implications that a cover-up happened.

Is it simple or is it complicated? Ever wonder?

a combination of both?

the locale and the careers of some players
complicated an otherwise simple scenario?

locale: corrupt/steamy resort
careers: atty/PvdS and polis/vdStraten

the locale provided the petri dish
and the careers provided the bacteria

the scenario could have been smaller
if the persons involved were blue collar
and the locale didn't involve tourists/casinos/etc

shango's basic story is very simple
when you strip away the elaborate imagery

yes, finngirl.  I see your logic and tend to agree.

[johan555]

I have calculated that the skull in the cage is about 4.5 inches (11.4 cm) long.
That seems to me very small for a skull.

The average Skull Length of a human is 8.45 inches (21.5cm).

Yes i did the same (if it is a skull it is a very small one ) 4 inches
(10 cm )

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I asked a Dive company in Rotterdam if the pics (if' send the pics to them ) were taken with a ROV and what he thinks about the content of the cage .
i spoke with the Owner of the dive company (they work daily (worldwide)with the ROV) and hey said to me that it is certainly not a human body.

Dear Johan,



The images were created with a R.O.V. The images were taken at around 91 f. That means 91 feet approximately 30 meters water depth.

The white stain bottom of the cage is very likely that sand by the weight of the cage through the mesh (net) is pressed. Because the cage at the bottom state.

Photo 2 is a photograph of a t.v. screen on which to see how the R.O.V. about 3 meters above the cage hangs (81 f) right we see the manipulator of the ROV in the picture .. The manipulator is a kind of movable and rotating grasping forceps.

Other photos are the same only what is here played with contrast and color. The objects in the cage are in my view hermit crabs. Hermit crabs have a shell to protect. When they bigger, the shell left, and they go looking for another shell.

A second possibility is that during the submersible of the cage, the cage was rotated 180 º and the bait top of the cage is hung (in order to lure crabs) now on the ground seems to lie. The bait is suspended with a piece of steel wire and a weight to the well to hang. This weight may be anything but what is on a crab boat.

The cage itself is heavily vegetated that is to say that it is already at least half years in the water must have been. Cages are used time and time again, and look not so overgrown off.



I am assuming here that you can continue.





Best regards,



DIVE & COMPANY MAAS Waal
Rotterdam

[ldstlou]

I have calculated that the skull in the cage is about 4.5 inches (11.4 cm) long.
That seems to me very small for a skull.

The average Skull Length of a human is 8.45 inches (21.5cm).

Yes i did the same (if it is a skull it is a very small one ) 4 inches
(10 cm )

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I asked a Dive company in Rotterdam if the pics (if' send the pics to them ) were taken with a ROV and what he thinks about the content of the cage .
i spoke with the Owner of the dive company (they work daily (worldwide)with the ROV) and hey said to me that it is certainly not a human body.

Dear Johan,



The images were created with a R.O.V. The images were taken at around 91 f. That means 91 feet approximately 30 meters water depth.

The white stain bottom of the cage is very likely that sand by the weight of the cage through the mesh (net) is pressed. Because the cage at the bottom state.

Photo 2 is a photograph of a t.v. screen on which to see how the R.O.V. about 3 meters above the cage hangs (81 f) right we see the manipulator of the ROV in the picture .. The manipulator is a kind of movable and rotating grasping forceps.

Other photos are the same only what is here played with contrast and color. The objects in the cage are in my view hermit crabs. Hermit crabs have a shell to protect. When they bigger, the shell left, and they go looking for another shell.

A second possibility is that during the submersible of the cage, the cage was rotated 180 º and the bait top of the cage is hung (in order to lure crabs) now on the ground seems to lie. The bait is suspended with a piece of steel wire and a weight to the well to hang. This weight may be anything but what is on a crab boat.

The cage itself is heavily vegetated that is to say that it is already at least half years in the water must have been. Cages are used time and time again, and look not so overgrown off.



I am assuming here that you can continue.





Best regards,



DIVE & COMPANY MAAS Waal
Rotterdam

Thanks Johan. So if there were no bones is it safe to say Kermit is wrong in her "conspiracy theory". John Silvetti didn't plant any evidence in the pond, and Lalas did not conspire with me to promote the conspiracy?

[Ree]

Maybe not as far as that's concerned, but certainly Kyle/responsible party did not turn over evidence to the family/FBI in a timely manner so there was a coverup exposed.

[johan555]

I have calculated that the skull in the cage is about 4.5 inches (11.4 cm) long.
That seems to me very small for a skull.

The average Skull Length of a human is 8.45 inches (21.5cm).

Yes i did the same (if it is a skull it is a very small one ) 4 inches
(10 cm )

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I asked a Dive company in Rotterdam if the pics (if' send the pics to them ) were taken with a ROV and what he thinks about the content of the cage .
i spoke with the Owner of the dive company (they work daily (worldwide)with the ROV) and hey said to me that it is certainly not a human body.

Dear Johan,



The images were created with a R.O.V. The images were taken at around 91 f. That means 91 feet approximately 30 meters water depth.

The white stain bottom of the cage is very likely that sand by the weight of the cage through the mesh (net) is pressed. Because the cage at the bottom state.

Photo 2 is a photograph of a t.v. screen on which to see how the R.O.V. about 3 meters above the cage hangs (81 f) right we see the manipulator of the ROV in the picture .. The manipulator is a kind of movable and rotating grasping forceps.

Other photos are the same only what is here played with contrast and color. The objects in the cage are in my view hermit crabs. Hermit crabs have a shell to protect. When they bigger, the shell left, and they go looking for another shell.

A second possibility is that during the submersible of the cage, the cage was rotated 180 º and the bait top of the cage is hung (in order to lure crabs) now on the ground seems to lie. The bait is suspended with a piece of steel wire and a weight to the well to hang. This weight may be anything but what is on a crab boat.

The cage itself is heavily vegetated that is to say that it is already at least half years in the water must have been. Cages are used time and time again, and look not so overgrown off.



I am assuming here that you can continue.





Best regards,



DIVE & COMPANY MAAS Waal
Rotterdam

Thanks Johan. So if there were no bones is it safe to say Kermit is wrong in her "conspiracy theory". John Silvetti didn't plant any evidence in the pond, and Lalas did not conspire with me to promote the conspiracy?

DIVE & COMPANY Maas &  Waal
Is a dive compagny in Rotterdam and they work daily with several ROV's
I phoned them a few  times and they analyzed the pics with several persons there .
This is what they say about the pics .

[pinkbanana]

Good Day Monkeys

Wanted to wish everyone a SAFE and Happy New Year!! 

pbxo

[klaasend]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

[snoopy]

Need to run out for a while this morning. Once I return, I will be here for the duration of the day/evening/night. Later.........   

Thank God, because I'm real sick and going to the Dr's at 10:00 and will be in bed for the rest of the day. Eyes hurt too , so it's hard to read. Sorry Guys I'm not much help this week.

Hope you feel better soon Blonde.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

[Buckeye]

ldstlou - I have no idea if anyone conspired with anyone.  I do find Kyle's posts at Freebirds WRONG and the fact they didn't send the FBI and the family evidence KYLE thought might be human remains when they said they would was WRONG of Kyle and wrong of Silvetti.

Note that I'm leaving Capslock out of this because one issue has nothing to do with the other in this instance.  I'm simply talking about what Kyle and Silvetti failed to do based upon Kyle's own words.  Whether Kyle thought he was speaking in a private forum or not doesn't matter to me at this point, they are his words.  He is welcome to refute or rebutt those words at any time right here in the OPEN SM forum. 

why would he come here Klaas? he has told me via phone calls and e-mail he turned everything over to the FBI right away and told Jug the same in an e-mail. Jug told me when I asked and re-asked based on Monkey's questions if they received the photos and he said yes. Still no one believes him. Jug stated twice they don't believe Kyle or John were involved in a conspiracy, and still you don't believe him. Coming here would only allow bashing because minds are made up. What is the point?

If there was no evidence in the cage...ie bones, then logically there was no conspiracy to cover up the evidence.

OE (Kyle) is the one that said he thought there were remains...and did an overlay...Someone else may think otherwise...but Kyle's belief is that there were remains.  Did he act appropriately on his belief?  These are Kyle's words.  Once again, your focus is on the messenger.  Try to focus on the message, itself.