Caylee Marie Anthony, 2, FL Missing since June 16-just reported by mother #81

[Wyks]

Discrediting Jesse Grund is an attempt to keep the deep dark secret of incest away from Cindy. She tries very hard to cover the skeltons in her closet.

Jesse knows who the baby daddy is. He was smart enough to have a DNA test done, that means he got a copy of the results. His love and respect for someone he really cared about will bring the truth forward. He really cared for Caylee as his own and he had some strong feelings for Casey who he says is not the same person now.

Curious how you know that Jesse knows who the baby daddy is, did he say that and I missed it?  Or is this info your opinion? 

And Jesse getting a copy of the results of the paternity test would have been his results only.  Not the results for who the baby daddy actually is. 

[Fuzzball]

Good morning Scarlett -- I hope you had a wonderful Christmas -- I hope the same for any other early Monkey Friends.  Lucinda, I have thought a lot about you and have said some prayers for you, your family and your friend's family. 

I found this story this morning -- it sounds all so familiar to the Caylee story -- http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/826570.html.  Let's hope for a happier ending.

They don't know her last name, but she's been babysitting their child for a year or more? They've never been to her house but they have her license number? Yeah, right.  She speaks with a heavy French accent? Really? But they don't know her last name. What a pity. She apparently knew theirs.

I don't buy one word of this story. Who lets their kid stay overnight at the babysitter's, because she's late bringing him home? Or leaves their kid with someone whose address and last name they don't know, for more than a year? That's crazy. If Camille were real they'd have ALL her info written down somewhere. She'd have written all that stuff down and given it to them. Are there a lot of people in Miami with heavy french accents? Sounds like this couple just got sick of their son. I wonder if the Dad's a stepfather.

Fuzzball. THere was no baby it was all made up. She had been lying to the baby daddy that there was a kid. When he came to see the baby, she calls a kidnapping. She didn't want to tell him she had a miscarriage. No Nanny and No baby.

When did this come out? Who's that in the photograph in the Miami Herald, then? Just a random baby? He doesn't look like a baby model--not really all that cute.

Who is the baby's father and when did all this come out? And if you were close enough to the father to tell him you were pregnant, then why would you conceal a miscarriage? I can't imagine being stupid enough to keep lying about this, for an entire year, pretending there was a baby when there wasn't. That's an insane thing to do. Wouldn't you know that he'd eventually find out?

I guess she was counting on him just forgetting about it and going away after awhile? I guess they usually do. Bet she was surprised when he kept asking questions, and came to see her?

I guess she thought she could keep the lie going. Baby daddy could have been military, in prison or working on a fishing boat and couldn't get down to see baby. She was probably milking him for money too.

This may be off topic, but women will do anything to make a guy stay with them for a child. When I was trying to get my hysterectomy I was only 29 yo. He told me I may marry again, want children, blah blah blah. THen he told me a story about a woman that had a hyst but told her new husband she could have kids. She "got" pregnant, but was rushed to the emergency room where my doctor saw her, she said she was miscarrying. Turns out when he examined her she had spread cherry pie filling up there to prove to her husband she lost the baby. That is HOW crazy and sick women can be to prove to their spouse/baby daddy they love them.

Sorry if this was off topic, I just wanted to make a point that crazy women don't always kill their child, they break the hearts of other people too.

You mean SOME women will do anything to make a guy stay with them. I don't know what you mean about "for a child."  I mean, if a guy's the father of your child why shouldn't he stay with you? Why should you have to do anything crazy? There's no actual child in this crazy story, and there's no child in your pie filling story. It's not "for a child," it's for themselves! These women are crazy because they're crazy, not because they're women.

That's really weird about that woman and the cherry pie filling-that's insane. Why were you trying to get a hysterectomy? Did you have uterine cancer? Normally a hysterectomy is only performed if the woman has cancer of the uterus or some other life-threatening condition. Why did you want one?

Usually when a woman wants to be sterilized they just tie her tubes. It's called a "tubal ligation."  They don't touch the uterus. They tie off and cauterize the fallopian tubes, so that there's no pathway from ovary to uterus. They do try to talk you out of it, but I never heard anything as crazy as that pie filling story. I would never tell a guy I could have kids if I couldn't.

Did the doctor violate his Hippocratic oath and tell on her?
Didn't the guy ever wonder why she never had a period? (hysterectomy=no uterus=no periods.)

[Wyks]

I don't know if Casey will be in solitary or general pop,  so les be friends. 

My name is Bud's Girl, not Les !

Ermmm..   Am thinking mary was saying let's be friends.  (My take on it anyway).   

[Fuzzball]

Discrediting Jesse Grund is an attempt to keep the deep dark secret of incest away from Cindy. She tries very hard to cover the skeltons in her closet.

Jesse knows who the baby daddy is. He was smart enough to have a DNA test done, that means he got a copy of the results. His love and respect for someone he really cared about will bring the truth forward. He really cared for Caylee as his own and he had some strong feelings for Casey who he says is not the same person now.

Curious how you know that Jesse knows who the baby daddy is, did he say that and I missed it?  Or is this info your opinion? 

And Jesse getting a copy of the results of the paternity test would have been his results only.  Not the results for who the baby daddy actually is. 

Jesse knows he's not the father, but how would he know who is, just from looking at his own test results?

[jjayinthemorning]

Discrediting Jesse Grund is an attempt to keep the deep dark secret of incest away from Cindy. She tries very hard to cover the skeltons in her closet.

Jesse knows who the baby daddy is. He was smart enough to have a DNA test done, that means he got a copy of the results. His love and respect for someone he really cared about will bring the truth forward. He really cared for Caylee as his own and he had some strong feelings for Casey who he says is not the same person now.

Curious how you know that Jesse knows who the baby daddy is, did he say that and I missed it?  Or is this info your opinion? 

And Jesse getting a copy of the results of the paternity test would have been his results only.  Not the results for who the baby daddy actually is. 

jmho. Have you ever seen a DNA test, it has specific markers. Like Leonard Padilla said, there are indications in DNA that the markers show... how did he say it... a specific pattern that didn't vary... meaning that the baby daddy was related or something to that effect.

The copy Jesse got would have been Caylee's results. In order to prove that he is not related his DNA is compared. Caylee would have had markers from the mother in those results also.

They aren't like the pregnancy stick results or Jerry Springer "you are not the father"... it is a specific graph and the results are obvious. And Jesse isn't dumb. At the time he was respectful and a loving surrogate. Odd how Cindy has turned so abruptly against him, eh?

[Wyks]

They had a story in the Globe and the Enquirer  again today.....One said that Casey has been telling her Pastor that she misses Caylee so very much!!!!!!  I wonder did the pastor say this or who!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
  The other story is about what the Grandparents are hiding......ummmmmmmmm

Not sure.  Over on another site, there's someone who knows someone from Enquirer, or something like that, who supposedly said that Casey told the Pastor that.  That story is supposed to be out in the Jan 5th Enquirer.  Has it been released already? 

[Fuzzball]

Good morning all of you monkeys.

Okay, PLEASE DON'T LAUGH, but I need to ask a stupid question that I have been wondering about since KC's arrests.  What is it that women prisoners do to other women prisoners to make their life hell?  I've read about what men do to other men sexually and that's about all I know when it comes to prison life.

        

I would get the big red BAN BUTTON if I told you

    

Women in prison have just as much access to fists, broom handles, and other scary objects as men in prison do.

[Wyks]

this is a link to a video that relates to the article Klaas posted.  it's LA's attorney, and he makes a HUGE "slip of the tongue".  I'm going to see if you catch it.  It's about 1/2 way through the video.  IT's an OMG moment, akin to the infamous Todd Black slip (saying Caylee was deceased, before they ever found the body).

GO NOW! http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151115&version=1&locale=EN-US

Nice catch! 

It will be interesting to watch how soon LA's attorney may be getting kicked to the curb.. hehe   

[friend of monkeys]

Under Florida State Law, Baez would not be able to tell or sell his story for profit if Casey Anthony is convicted of first degree murder, based on attorney/client privileges. Hornsby said, “If Ms. Anthony is convicted of anything, Mr. Baez and anybody who has worked on his defense will never be able to publicly speak about either what she said, what she talked about or how their defense was prepared. If they did they could be sued.”

If by some miracle that Casey would be acquitted of first degree murder she could give Baez permission and then and only then would he be allowed to make money from this case. (I guess he is that sure of winning this case. How else could he possibly afford to take on this case with the expense it has cost so far? In my opinion people do not do this for people like Casey Anthony just out of the goodness of their hearts even if they are millionaires.)
 



       Well I guess this answers one of my questions...............either Baez really thinks he will win this case, or he's just plain crazy!!!!!!!!

TY higherhopes.  Good info.  I am still tryng to catch up.


just wondering....

Why do monkeys think Casey would tell the detective she last saw Caylee on June 9TH?

TIA

[jjayinthemorning]

http://www.homedna-test.com/Forms/inclusionary.pdf
here is a DNA result sample.
Other results show Y chromosome (male) figures, if those were exact to the midocondrial then it's obvious that the father is related to the mother. I would suspect since Jesse was trying to prove Y then he may have seen the Y results of Caylee.
Maybe not. But there sure is some rumors out there about incest and Cindy is protesting and Lee is refusing to give a sample.

[friend of monkeys]

this is a link to a video that relates to the article Klaas posted.  it's LA's attorney, and he makes a HUGE "slip of the tongue".  I'm going to see if you catch it.  It's about 1/2 way through the video.  IT's an OMG moment, akin to the infamous Todd Black slip (saying Caylee was deceased, before they ever found the body).

GO NOW! http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151115&version=1&locale=EN-US

would the word "daughter" be the OMG moment???   lol

nah...he was flustered imo....being interviewed on film like that can really fluster one.  ANd there is no "white out"...lol

[Fuzzball]

Discrediting Jesse Grund is an attempt to keep the deep dark secret of incest away from Cindy. She tries very hard to cover the skeltons in her closet.

Jesse knows who the baby daddy is. He was smart enough to have a DNA test done, that means he got a copy of the results. His love and respect for someone he really cared about will bring the truth forward. He really cared for Caylee as his own and he had some strong feelings for Casey who he says is not the same person now.

Curious how you know that Jesse knows who the baby daddy is, did he say that and I missed it?  Or is this info your opinion? 

And Jesse getting a copy of the results of the paternity test would have been his results only.  Not the results for who the baby daddy actually is. 

jmho. Have you ever seen a DNA test, it has specific markers. Like Leonard Padilla said, there are indications in DNA that the markers show... how did he say it... a specific pattern that didn't vary... meaning that the baby daddy was related or something to that effect.

The copy Jesse got would have been Caylee's results. In order to prove that he is not related his DNA is compared. Caylee would have had markers from the mother in those results also.

They aren't like the pregnancy stick results or Jerry Springer "you are not the father"... it is a specific graph and the results are obvious. And Jesse isn't dumb. At the time he was respectful and a loving surrogate. Odd how Cindy has turned so abruptly against him, eh?

I didn't know they sent the father the actual graph! If what you are saying is true, then yes, he could know. I thought it was like the old pregnancy tests you got from hospitals, where they ran the test then called you on the phone saying "yes" or "no," and never showed you anything!

If Casey weren't so OBVIOUSLY the culprit, and if she and Jesse had been more involved at the time of the murder, it would make sense for a mother to suspect him, because of "stepfather syndrome."

According to Childhelp USA, children are most likely to be killed by their mother during the first week of life but are more likely to be killed by a male (usually their father or stepfather) thereafter. And I've read that stepfathers injure and kill kids much more often than biological fathers or mothers, or even stepmothers. If I've read it Cindy could have read it, too. And she may also have a personal prejudice from working as a nurse and seeing cases of abused kids.

If Casey weren't so obviously guilty, I wouldn't blame Cindy for wanting to think it was someone else, because it does happen quite a lot.

[Wyks]

Discrediting Jesse Grund is an attempt to keep the deep dark secret of incest away from Cindy. She tries very hard to cover the skeltons in her closet.

Jesse knows who the baby daddy is. He was smart enough to have a DNA test done, that means he got a copy of the results. His love and respect for someone he really cared about will bring the truth forward. He really cared for Caylee as his own and he had some strong feelings for Casey who he says is not the same person now.

Curious how you know that Jesse knows who the baby daddy is, did he say that and I missed it?  Or is this info your opinion? 

And Jesse getting a copy of the results of the paternity test would have been his results only.  Not the results for who the baby daddy actually is. 

jmho. Have you ever seen a DNA test, it has specific markers. Like Leonard Padilla said, there are indications in DNA that the markers show... how did he say it... a specific pattern that didn't vary... meaning that the baby daddy was related or something to that effect.

The copy Jesse got would have been Caylee's results. In order to prove that he is not related his DNA is compared. Caylee would have had markers from the mother in those results also.

They aren't like the pregnancy stick results or Jerry Springer "you are not the father"... it is a specific graph and the results are obvious. And Jesse isn't dumb. At the time he was respectful and a loving surrogate. Odd how Cindy has turned so abruptly against him, eh?

Okay.     And no, I haven't ever seen a DNA test, or a paternity test, that's the same thing, right?  Haven't really thought about it before, just seems to me that an actual paternity test would only include Jesse's results, yeah or nay, and the % that he is or isn't the father.  Guess I've watched too many Maury shows. 

"Tests show that it's 99.999999999 % conclusive .. You ARE the father!"
Exit screaming woman, stage left.  Exit Maury and camera, right behind her. 

Very odd how Cindy turned against Jesse, yes.  Wasn't it about the time Jesse found out his results, that there was some upheaval in the Anthony home?  If so, that could be telling.  Not sure about what tho.  heh. 

[jjayinthemorning]

I agree that Jesse feels threatened that he is being made to look like the villian in this case. That's a trick the Anthony's use frequently, making themselves the damsel/victim rather than the villians. Too bad the public sees through their bs and they have spent too much taxpayer money on that game. Also causes alot of people like Zenaida and Jesse to get lawyers.

Maybe Jesse didn't know about the DNA markers at the time but there was a reason he demanded the test. I find that interesting.

Let's add up what Cindy has done to throw doubt into this case also.
Jesse the evil stepfather.
Pizza maggots.
The underpass car change on the way to jail.
Tips from all over the world.

[jjayinthemorning]

Just to give you an idea about the science of it, here's an article about the DNA testing of the Texas cult:
http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080424-dna-tests.html
It says that they can tell alot from the DNA including incest.

Cindy being a nurse would also be over protective of the child because she knows that complications are passed on in incestual children. She protests way too loudly. I wonder what will happen when she has to face the public shame.

[Fuzzball]

Okies.. It's been a bit slow on news in this case cuz of the holidays, am thinking.  For those of you waiting for something to sink your teeth into, here ya go.     I'm no psych doc, yet have agreed with many others that Casey is very likely a sociopath/psychopath.  On further study of Casey and the way she relates with family and others, am now thinking that it's likely that she is a 'malignant narcissist' instead.  Maybe tendencies of each.  See how much of this describes Casey:

-----

Otto Kernberg described malignant narcissism as a syndrome characterized by a narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), antisocial features, paranoid traits, and ego-syntonic aggression. An absence of conscience, a psychological need for power, and a sense of importance (grandiosity) are often symptomatic of Malignant Narcissism. Pollock wrote: "The malignant narcissist is presented as pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism."  Kernberg claimed that malignant narcissism should be considered part of a spectrum of pathological narcissism, which he saw as ranging from the Cleckley's antisocial character (today's psychopath) at the high end of severity, to malignant narcissism, to NPD at the low end.

Kernberg wrote that malignant narcissism can be differentiated from psychopathy because of the malignant narcissists' capacity to internalize "both aggressive and idealized superego precursors, leading to the idealization of the aggressive, sadistic features of the pathological grandiose self of these patients." According to Kernberg, the psychopaths' paranoid stance against external influences makes them unwilling to internalize even the values of the "aggressor," while malignant narcissists "have the capacity to admire powerful people, and can depend on sadistic and powerful but reliable parental images." Malignant narcissists, in contrast to psychopaths, are also said to be capable of developing "some identification with other powerful idealized figures as part of a cohesive 'gang' ... which permits at least some loyalty and good object relations to be internalized."

Malignant narcissism is highlighted as a key area when it comes to the study of mass, sexual, and serial murder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism

Can you elaborate more on this? I don't quite get the connection yet. She's not a mass murderer, or a serial killer, nor was this murder part of a sexual act.
She didn't kill Caylee for her own sexual gratification.

What isn't clear, is whether she was sacrificing Caylee to be with Tony, sort of killing the part of herself she saw as standing in the way, or whether she did it to hurt Cindy. If she's a malignant narcissist, are you saying that she identifies with her father and LE? Who are the powerful people she admires and is obedient to? The personality type you're describing is kind of like those people who kill their kids while performing exorcisms, or who kill people to show loyalty to their gang or their church or their "superior" race.

Casey is without conscience, and presents a mild danger in that she'll lie to or steal from anybody. But nobody's ever complained about violent behavior from her at all, until now. She's not a Jeffrey Dahmer or a Ted Bundy. She more fits the Diane Downs and Susan Smith type profile, where she's justified in her own mind in killing her child because it's hers. Although there's some small evidence to suggest that this was on the way to becoming a mass murder, that's really just a theory. We don't have proof yet that she was going to do that.

Ok, I'll try, it's hard to explain this concept in full in a forum, which is why I provided the article, and then in my next post after that a link to a longer much more detailed report.  http://tinyurl.com/7kudn3  At this link, I sure wish I could copy portions, especially near the end, because it describes Casey spot on, IMO.  You can also google ---> malignant narcissism <--- for further explanations. 

Before I begin to explain what I see so far, just want to mention that I did not say or mean to imply that Casey is a mass murderer, serial killer, or that this was part of a sexual act.  As you say, whether or not she was on her way to becoming or taking part in any of these, is purely speculation, not fact, at this time. 

I think if you step back and look at the bigger picture, you may see that Casey's relationship with Cindy and her relationship with men seem to parallel each other.  It appears that Casey needed to be the princess, the adored one, and that she seems to have gone out of her way to achieve this, despite the cost.  With Cindy, Caylee seems to have replaced Casey as the adored little princess.  With men, at least with Jesse, the same thing happened.  Casey seems to have kicked Jesse to the curb when she may have realized how very attached to Caylee he was.  On the other hand, it seems that just after Tony reportedly made a comment that he preferred having male children, Caylee ended up missing.  Seems that for Casey, having Caylee around was a liability.  In this respect, it's likely that to hurt Cindy to the core (revenge) as well as to ensure herself her own place in a man's heart, Casey put things in motion for the disappearance of the liability, her daughter.  I don't think it was just because of one or the other, but both.  Cuz she evidently had plans for Caylee's demise before she met Tony, even tho Caylee went missing just after Casey supposedly slept with Tony the first time.  At that same time she was either moving out of her home or being kicked out by Cindy.  Also happening at the same time was the reported 'big fight' between her and Cindy.  It's hard to seperate these things out, and maybe we don't have to, because they do seem to be linked. 

No, I don't think Casey identifies with her father and LE.  IMO, she sees him as weak.  I believe that there has been a love-hate thing going on between Casey and Cindy, that they are VERY much alike, that Casey may have tried her whole life to please Cindy, and in some aspects not only identifies with her, but also tries to one-up.  Cindy has shown herself to be very controlling, and in that sense Casey may have seen her as an 'all-powerful' person.  Casey may have wanted this spot for herself, and the battle was on.  May have wanted both the roles of cherished princess at the same time wanted to be THE big bad boss, making the decisions of her own life and of others.  Both being repelled by Cindy and fascinated by her at the same time.  Casey and Cindy both seem to have their own seperate 'realities' and at least one in common.  They certainly do seem to have created their own sense of being 'superior' to all, in and of themselves.  It's possible that in a weird sense, the characters in their realities are 'the gang', or their 'superior race'.  I don't know that Caylee was killed because of any loyalties to a gang, but likely more because Cindy and Casey's 'realities' collided, and Caylee was in the way of what Casey wanted for her life.  For several reasons, as mentioned above.  Again, that's IMO. 

You're right in that we don't know of anyone yet who has complained about Casey being violent.  That doesn't mean that she hasn't been tho.  Think back to the interviews, where when Cindy was asked if there was violence in the home, she hesitates and replied with a soft, 'no'.  I call BS on that!!  There HAS BEEN violence in that home, that was one very clear indication, given the fact that Cindy has expounded at length on every other detail and then some.  The thing we do not know for sure is WHO has been violent in that home.  It's been reported that Cindy had her hands around Casey's throat during that fight and was choking her.  What hasn't been explained is what appears to be a wound on Cindy's nose and what could have been two black eyes.  Was Cindy's nose perhaps broken in that fight, causing black eyes?  Or was it just a pimple or something, and circles under her eyes due to lack of sleep.  We don't know.  I'm saying it's very likely that Casey was violent with her parents, just as it's likely they were violent with her.  Where is Caylee in all this?  Dead.  And not as the result of an accident either. 

IMO, we can see Casey in this, from the above article:
""The malignant narcissist is presented as pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism."

You're right in that we don't have proof yet what Casey's intent was.  And yet, we are gathered in this forum to discuss the possibilities, and this has been my opinion.  Anyone is welcome to disagree with me, it's my own opinion, not fact. 

If you have a chance to read that info at the above link, you may see areas that seem to fit Casey.  Not every area, no.  But a good majority, IMO.  It's a long read, but worth it in trying to understand this concept, especially near the end of that article/chapter.  Again, IMO.   

Wyks, I'm very interested in your thoughts on this because you are a social worker, and also have personal experience with abuse. I'm also interested in e-mailing if you are ok with that. I guess the thing that pushed my skeptical button was the "joyful cruelty," because Casey seems curiously lacking in it. But they may just not be letting us see that side of her.

Good catch about the broken nose--how long after the choking incident was the photo taken? It takes a few weeks for the swelling to go down and the black eyes to fade. Cindy looked about the way you'd look after 1 month.  I'd have guessed George did it because of the tension between him & Lee, and the fact that he put his Dad through a window--ie, he doesn't reign in his temper even for the sake of a job.

But that window thing is also parental abuse.....now I'm wondering about whether Casey might actually have terrorized Cindy, whether there might be a group of young men willing to do things like torch the house or kill the parents, on Casey's say-so. Remember Patrick Bourgeois? "Mike says hi."  I always figured that was connected somehow to the anonymous donor that put up the bond. 

[Fuzzball]

I agree that Jesse feels threatened that he is being made to look like the villian in this case. That's a trick the Anthony's use frequently, making themselves the damsel/victim rather than the villians. Too bad the public sees through their bs and they have spent too much taxpayer money on that game. Also causes alot of people like Zenaida and Jesse to get lawyers.

Maybe Jesse didn't know about the DNA markers at the time but there was a reason he demanded the test. I find that interesting.

Let's add up what Cindy has done to throw doubt into this case also.
Jesse the evil stepfather.
Pizza maggots.
The underpass car change on the way to jail.
Tips from all over the world.

Yeah, they're liars, no doubt about it. And I think Lee's the father, too.

But Jesse did NOT demand a paternity test. His father, Richard Grund, made him get one. And it looks like in this case Father Knew Best.  I don't think he saw a test or the DNA markers, or had any inkling that Lee was the father. Casey did tell him Lee tried to molest her, though, and so he was always suspicious of Lee. Maybe he figured if the father wasn't him, it had to be Lee.

[Wyks]

just wondering....

Why do monkeys think Casey would tell the detective she last saw Caylee on June 9TH?

TIA

Here's my theory, but still looking for actual facts to back it all up. 

I read somewhere (early on) that Cindy started a week vacation beginning June 9th.  Then I read somewhere later that she denied taking that vacation.  Sooooo am checking for that info. 

My theory goes along with the info that Cindy began her vacation on that day.  Up until that day, she had been taking care of Caylee at night it seems, when Casey was hanging around with her new set of friends.  At some point before that, it seems that Cindy began trying to put her foot down, trying to get Casey to accept her own responsibility for Caylee.  Either Cindy was going out of town or just didn't want to care for Caylee during her vacation, am not sure yet, but something happened that Casey ended up taking Caylee along with her during that week.  Am thinking that Cindy may have said to Casey repeated over and over something like, 'when my vacation starts on June 9th, you'll have to start being responsible for Caylee!'  We've read interviews and reports from her friends who saw Caylee with Casey during that time, days and nights as well I believe.  (Wasn't this the week that party happened where Caylee was there sleeping?) 

The 14th of June comes along, this (according to the documents) is supposedly the first night that Casey spent with Tony.  Evidently Cindy had relented in 'not taking care of' Caylee, because she must have spent the night at home with them cuz they were going to see Cindy's father the next day.  (father's day).  Evidently Casey didn't get over there until later that afternoon, early evening.  ??  Still checking this out.  And that night, June 15th was Cindy's last day of her vacation.  It was also the night of the fight that has been reported. 

Fast forward to the time that Caylee was reported missing.  Cindy didn't seem to want any attention to the fact that there was a fight on father's day, cuz she downplayed it big time.  She didn't seem to want father's day mentioned at all.  I do believe that in order to avoid talking about that day, she focused on June 9th instead.  The beginning of her vacation and supposedly the first day that Casey was to start taking full-time care of Caylee.  After Cindy gave the day June 9th as the last day she had seen Caylee, then Casey said the same thing.  Kind of like parroting Cindy, whatever she said kind of thing.  Interesting that others gave that date as well, early on, as if following a script that Cindy had pressed upon them?  Dunno. 

It wasn't until the date on the father's day video with Caylee was discovered, that Cindy 'remembered' oh yeah, that was the 15th wasn't it?  hmmm, guess that was the last day I saw her then.  I seriously think that Cindy thought the focus on the 9th of June was gonna fly, perhaps not even thinking the video would be found or a date on it either. 

I don't believe that Cindy 'tucked' Casey and Caylee into bed on the night of father's day, all that sounded too much cutesy detail to be true.  I mean, who does that with a young adult who has a child?  I don't believe she 'heard' them in their room the next morning before she went to work either.  I also don't believe that George saw Casey or Caylee that day.  I think George went along with saying he saw them in order to make Cindy not feel so dang guilty for perhaps not fully checking on them the night before or that Monday morning.  Or he's simply saying what Cindy told him to say.  I think that it's George's way of helping to get the focus off fathers day as well. 

There's a reason why so many focused on June 9th, in the beginning.  Could be any one of these things, could be all of them together, could be something else entirely.

Looking forward to seeing how other monkeys answer your question!!   
 

[Today]

Does this site cause anyone else to get a sound like a single piano note repeated every second until I log out and reboot?

Try just refreshing the page.  That works for me.  It doesn't happen all the time, but some times.  I think it has something to do with the popup ads.  Sometimes I do freeze and have to reboot.  I am a Microsoft person, so I'm not changing to Foxfire.

[Wyks]

Wyks, I'm very interested in your thoughts on this because you are a social worker, and also have personal experience with abuse. I'm also interested in e-mailing if you are ok with that. I guess the thing that pushed my skeptical button was the "joyful cruelty," because Casey seems curiously lacking in it. But they may just not be letting us see that side of her.

Good catch about the broken nose--how long after the choking incident was the photo taken? It takes a few weeks for the swelling to go down and the black eyes to fade. Cindy looked about the way you'd look after 1 month.  I'd have guessed George did it because of the tension between him & Lee, and the fact that he put his Dad through a window--ie, he doesn't reign in his temper even for the sake of a job.

But that window thing is also parental abuse.....now I'm wondering about whether Casey might actually have terrorized Cindy, whether there might be a group of young men willing to do things like torch the house or kill the parents, on Casey's say-so. Remember Patrick Bourgeois? "Mike says hi."  I always figured that was connected somehow to the anonymous donor that put up the bond. 

I'm fine with that, you could have klaas forward your email to me and we can continue in emails.   

I do see 'joyful cruelty' in Casey: 
...in the pic with that smirk Casey gave in court. 
...in her voice on those tapes and videos of the jail visits, etc. 
...in her choices of pics, music, poetry, movies on her profiles, myspace, etc.
...in that high-five with Lee. 
...in her refusing visits with her family before, because she was angry with them. 
...in her supposedly refusing visits from her parents now, supposedly because she is angry at George for having testified before the grand jury.
...in her complete lack of empathy and feelings toward others. 
...in the way she just plain seems to be enjoying all of this. 

About that photo of Cindy, it was noticed in the early pics when Caylee was first reported missing.  So that would have been a month after the supposed fight on father's day.  Enough time for black eyes to have healed for the most part.  Yep, my first thought was George.  Been wondering tho if it is possible that it was Casey.

It's possible that Casey may have been terrorizing Cindy.  Her comment that Zanny had a copy of the key to the house could be seen as threatening, or not.  She certainly seems to talk to Cindy at times as if there's something major she's holding over her head.  Or over the heads of her whole family.  Something's up with that.

And yes, that comment 'Mike says hi' has always bothered me.  At first Casey doesn't seem to 'get it', then something seems to have suddenly dawned on her.  Wish we knew what!  lol