Natalee Case Discussion #788 12/31/08 - 1/01/09

[jen3560]

truthseeker - you raise some very good points about evidence/pond/cage.

one question I have that maybe some monkeys could answer..................

wasn't there rumor going around about a shoe that WAS found at/near/in the pond?

I think something that Jossy had said?

Now - I may be confusing that with the shoes that were found in that rocky area - but my mind is telling me there was another rumor about a shoe having been found after the pond was "drained".

[truthseeker2]

. . John Silvetti moved the contents of the trap to the pond and was working with the ALE to hide evidence that was in that trap.

Now what in the world could be the reason for Silvetti to do that?!
Who is buying that crap

You state it wasn't found, but who looked?  CAPS was alluding the remains in these ponds, but has there actually been a credible search?  IIRC the original allegation was Silvetti was interested in hiding evidence in the cage to cover up his real motives for the ocean scan.  I know nothing about ocean scans and searching for oil, but I do know Kyle questioned his motives until he found out shooting off his mouth in a private forum could come back to bite him in the ass.

Not me.  This is where some credibility began to wear thin.  imho.

Maybe is crap, but didn't Kyle himself raise the issue of Silvetti's loyalties which I believe is why he's in hot water.

Ree, that statement that implies Silvetti and the ALE conspired to move evidence to another location...and oh, let me think here...uh...they moved it, but no one found where they moved it, which was to a pond that CAPS finally decided on after several attempts to pick a a proper pond to move it to, so that his witness would be giving the correct information to place Joran at that decided upon pond...with the transplanted evidence, that even now has not been 'found'....maybe they are waiting for Mum and Lala's to come to Aruba and find that transplanted evidence that we all know is in the third pond.

Sheesh.  I'm sorry, but that implication just doesn't strike me as plausible.

Yep, unbelieveble. Someone who would bring on such a story i found not credible anymore.

Sorry, I botched that post.  You state it wasn't found, but who looked?  CAPS was alluding the remains in these ponds, but has there actually been a credible search?  IIRC the original allegation was Silvetti was interested in hiding evidence in the cage to cover up his real motives for the ocean scan.  I know nothing about ocean scans and searching for oil, but I do know Kyle questioned his motives until he found out shooting off his mouth in a private forum could come back to bite him in the ass.

Well, that pond is bone dry now.  Looks like someone was playing around out there, but no footprints, so they didn't play around out there until the ground was completely dry.  Has anyone heard about any evidence (planted or otherwise) being found in that dried up pond?  I haven't.

[jen3560]

It appears Kyle had internet access while he was in Egypt, or at least it looks that way from his blog:

http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/

http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/

Great point!

[Ree]

Remember the 35 to 50 Dutch investigators.who were sent from Holland.
Both Kyle and Caps mentioned that and no one else saw hide nor hair of them.
What was that about?

Where's Jossy and parts 2, 3, 4, etc?  If Jossy's son was on the dive recovery team, why aren't we hearing anything?

[ldstlou]

Maybe is crap, but didn't Kyle himself raise the issue of Silvetti's loyalties which I believe is why he's in hot water.

Yes, he certainly did.  He told us in no uncertain terms that he felt Silvetti's intentions began as honorable - but that his focus shifted.

Also that Silvetti didn't want to question ALE about their insistence the cage was "not relevant" for fear of ruining newly made friendships and contacts.  Because Silvetti had plans to open an office on the island and do business in S America and Aruba.

FWIW - Kyle also never, ever believed in this whole pond witness thing, until the very end when we were wanting to publish our document containing the cage images and Kyle's words.

Then all of a sudden he says the pond witness is "credible", and Silvetti is, after all, "trustworthy".

I took that with a whole dumptruck of salt.

AND, as I recall - his sudden "about face" came out of nowhere.  After he had been absent from the forum for, ummm, two months or so?  We were like WTF?

wingnut, see this is what irks me...you tell half truths for your own agenda. He was gone for 2 months because he was on a ship in Egypt for crying out loud...why make it out to be anything more than it was?

No - if you had read my letter, you would understand a bit better.

Kyle was "gone" for the most part since approximately MAY.

The final two months of that (Aug and Sept) was when he was out of the country.

No half truths in wingnut's post at all.

My follow up post to hers was just to point out what Kyle had been doing, and for whom, before his immediate about face regarding Silvetti and this witness.

So why can't he change his mind about John Silvetti? Why is that an untruth and conspiracy because in hindsight after emotions have died down and he had time to reflect upon what happened and he decides he over reacted in regards to his concerns...that you call FACTS...why is that "about face" so unbelievable...because it ruined your conspiracy?

[truthseeker2]

truthseeker - you raise some very good points about evidence/pond/cage.

one question I have that maybe some monkeys could answer..................

wasn't there rumor going around about a shoe that WAS found at/near/in the pond?

I think something that Jossy had said?

Now - I may be confusing that with the shoes that were found in that rocky area - but my mind is telling me there was another rumor about a shoe having been found after the pond was "drained".

Didn't hear it if there was one.  Maybe another monkey could help you with that.

[wreck]

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

[jen3560]

Remember the 35 to 50 Dutch investigators.who were sent from Holland.
Both Kyle and Caps mentioned that and no one else saw hide nor hair of them.
What was that about?

Kyle told us that was nothing to do with the pond search that was/wasn't did/didn't go on at that time.

He said he believed those folks were there for the purpose of an investigation into the investigation.

[Ree]

. . John Silvetti moved the contents of the trap to the pond and was working with the ALE to hide evidence that was in that trap.

Now what in the world could be the reason for Silvetti to do that?!
Who is buying that crap

You state it wasn't found, but who looked?  CAPS was alluding the remains in these ponds, but has there actually been a credible search?  IIRC the original allegation was Silvetti was interested in hiding evidence in the cage to cover up his real motives for the ocean scan.  I know nothing about ocean scans and searching for oil, but I do know Kyle questioned his motives until he found out shooting off his mouth in a private forum could come back to bite him in the ass.

Not me.  This is where some credibility began to wear thin.  imho.

Maybe is crap, but didn't Kyle himself raise the issue of Silvetti's loyalties which I believe is why he's in hot water.

Ree, that statement that implies Silvetti and the ALE conspired to move evidence to another location...and oh, let me think here...uh...they moved it, but no one found where they moved it, which was to a pond that CAPS finally decided on after several attempts to pick a a proper pond to move it to, so that his witness would be giving the correct information to place Joran at that decided upon pond...with the transplanted evidence, that even now has not been 'found'....maybe they are waiting for Mum and Lala's to come to Aruba and find that transplanted evidence that we all know is in the third pond.

Sheesh.  I'm sorry, but that implication just doesn't strike me as plausible.

Yep, unbelieveble. Someone who would bring on such a story i found not credible anymore.

Sorry, I botched that post.  You state it wasn't found, but who looked?  CAPS was alluding the remains in these ponds, but has there actually been a credible search?  IIRC the original allegation was Silvetti was interested in hiding evidence in the cage to cover up his real motives for the ocean scan.  I know nothing about ocean scans and searching for oil, but I do know Kyle questioned his motives until he found out shooting off his mouth in a private forum could come back to bite him in the ass.

Well, that pond is bone dry now.  Looks like someone was playing around out there, but no footprints, so they didn't play around out there until the ground was completely dry.  Has anyone heard about any evidence (planted or otherwise) being found in that dried up pond?  I haven't.

I don't know.  Perhaps our mystery investigators from Holland took it to turn it into chocolate.

[ldstlou]

It appears Kyle had internet access while he was in Egypt, or at least it looks that way from his blog:

http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/

http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/

Great point!

so did you contact him Jen? Guy dissappears for 2 months while you are compiling your "findings" and you didn't want to contact him or run any of your ideas past him? hmmmmm

[texasmom]

Subject: Caps

I have asked repeatedly for many months for those who doubt Caps to tell me the reasons why.  Show me some proof he's not who he claims to be or from where he claims to be from.  I've never received any proof that he is not who he claims to be, or that he is only here as a diversion.  The only things that were posted about these doubts in many instances I found to be as cryptic as some of Caps posts.  From my own communications with him fairly recently, I started to have my own doubts about some things.  Basically how he knew certain things, and how that information changed from what he'd already told me.  

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.

In the past I have stood up for Caps when the basis of doubts was a post he made on the seven sins, the post was obviously cut and pasted from somewhere else.  The claim was that because of that post Caps was a master of the English language and was deceiving us all with his usual somewhat broken English way of speaking.  That was not proof in my opinion.  This was not the only time I stood by him, there were others.  Each time I was attacked for defending him; but was never provided any information that proved that Caps was/is deceiving us.  If there is information that proves that Caps is not from Aruba, is not who he claims to be; and that he was involved in a conspiracy...I would like to know about it.  Please!

From Caps own admissions I know he met with John Silvetti, from my understanding this is what he believed Dave Holloway wanted him to do.  From my understanding Caps has never communicated with Dave Holloway other than through email, although he provided other means for Dave to contact him.  Caps has also told me that he never met or had dealings with anyone else on the Persistence.  From my perspective of my discussions with Caps and what I have read here, I believe there is a possibility that he and his information was used to further the agenda of others.

I have read Caps original logic report that was sent to some in January from what I can tell.  I have only received and read it in the past few months.  From my understanding he researched the logic of Natalee being placed in all of the ponds that have been mentioned, the most logical conclusion to the research was that she was placed in the pond at Monserat.

I've checked the sitemeter before too, and know that there were times that he was here and Aruba did show up.  

I have a lot of questions, and I also have an open mind.  I want any and all information that is known to help me decide if I was duped/conned or whatever.  What I have said in the past was my belief from the information I had.  So far I don't have any information that convinces me otherwise.

I will repeat this because this is why I am here.

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.






  

 

[Keepthefaith]

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

Much agree Wreck!I'm still trying to understand how one argue's For Kyle in terms of his state of mind when his words are his state of mind??Only Kyle knows and his words say what he thinks...if that makes any sense?

[Blonde]

Blonde,

You made a post in the last thread about Caps posting, and a lack of Aruban people on the meter.

Just wanted you to know there were others who noticed that as well.  On numerous occasions. 

I have about 20 in my documents. I have even sent klaas one. From Aruba.

You can get a progran hide the IP and it will show everyone your posting from where ever you want. I know this for a fact, because I had it on my old computer.

Very interesting.

I had the one you pay for, http://www.hide-the-ip.com/

[Magnolia]

Remember the 35 to 50 Dutch investigators.who were sent from Holland.
Both Kyle and Caps mentioned that and no one else saw hide nor hair of them.
What was that about?

Where's Jossy and parts 2, 3, 4, etc?  If Jossy's son was on the dive recovery team, why aren't we hearing anything?

Jossy never said there were other parts.  Only Caps said that.

[klaasend]

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

Yep

[truthseeker2]

Remember the 35 to 50 Dutch investigators.who were sent from Holland.
Both Kyle and Caps mentioned that and no one else saw hide nor hair of them.
What was that about?

Where's Jossy and parts 2, 3, 4, etc?  If Jossy's son was on the dive recovery team, why aren't we hearing anything?

Good question.  I asked a similar question last night.  I would like to hear what Eduardo thinks about the contents of the trap from his vantage point.

[jen3560]

So why can't he change his mind about John Silvetti? Why is that an untruth and conspiracy because in hindsight after emotions have died down and he had time to reflect upon what happened and he decides he over reacted in regards to his concerns...that you call FACTS...why is that "about face" so unbelievable...because it ruined your conspiracy?

Look lady - I don't know who you are, and I don't really care.  But what you're calling MY conspiracy is not mine at all.

They are KYLE's beliefs, KYLE's words, and KYLE's concerns - and those are all separate from the FACTS Kyle shared with us as well.

And what's rather comical about this post of yours is - the fact that Kyle KNOWS Silvetti was self serving when that trap was found, and the fact that Kyle BELIEVED that witness to be full of crap, but then comes back and tells us differently after working for Silvetti, only re-enforced the questions in my mind about something hinky going on between John and this witness.

Not the other way around like you posted.

[Anna]

Anna,

You have made some excellent points the last few pages.

The point here is - what happened to the items Aruba recovered from that trap?

What can we all do to get an investigation into this?

Tim Miller and Kyle Kingman both believe there were human remains in that trap.

The rest of us weren't there -we can only go by their words and beliefs, and the images Kyle shared.

And Tim Miller was away on Jan 7 when the contents were recovered by ALE.

[Keepthefaith]

Thanx Truthseeker2.Forgot to respond to the last response. Will stand with the Frog until the finality then take my thoughts from there.If i'm wrong i will Eat crow then bury my head in the sand rightfully so... .Until then.Ribbit...

[jen3560]

so did you contact him Jen? Guy dissappears for 2 months while you are compiling your "findings" and you didn't want to contact him or run any of your ideas past him? hmmmmm

You really don't read many posts, do you?

Read my letter again.  All the answers to that question are in it.