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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #788 12/31/08 - 1/01/09  (Read 212407 times)
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wingnut
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« Reply #240 on: December 31, 2008, 04:09:24 PM »

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

Ummm.. make it 4 now... 

I been reading several pages.. and YES.. I read and seen it all. So.. I can say in all honesty.. I cak up 100% what Kermit, Jen and Wingnut are posting. I love yah all here at SM and also the folks at freebirds. I may as well resign from there now that I suppose I outed myself as well. I didnt do a whole hell of alot there. I really didnt have time due to work. I read all what Kyle has posted and PLEASE people.. listen to Kermit..Jen and Wingnut.

Now.. I guess I differed this thread.. lol  Anyhow.. I really need to go and get a shower and get the hell out of the house~!

Have a Happy New Year everyone !!

Jen and Wing.. I apologize.. but reading page after page after page.. I wanted others to know you guys are not full of shit !!
 


Hey Ang!  You did more than you know.  There were many times that you held me up.  I hope you have a FAB New Year.  You deserve it more than most.

Love ya Sistah!
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Anna
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« Reply #241 on: December 31, 2008, 04:09:48 PM »

Angie, Happy New Year to you and ALL the MONKEYS!
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All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
wingnut
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« Reply #242 on: December 31, 2008, 04:11:22 PM »



It appears Kyle had internet access while he was in Egypt, or at least it looks that way from his blog:

http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/

http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/

Great point!

so did you contact him Jen? Guy dissappears for 2 months while you are compiling your "findings" and you didn't want to contact him or run any of your ideas past him? hmmmmm


Are you implying that something nefarious was taking place?  Kyle contacted us in order for the Freebirds to disseminate the information in a controlled manner.  HIS words.  That's what we were doing. 

oh...a "controlled manner" gotcha!


HIS WORDS.   Are you stuck on something?
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Angiex911dsptchr
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« Reply #243 on: December 31, 2008, 04:12:23 PM »

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

Ummm.. make it 4 now... 

I been reading several pages.. and YES.. I read and seen it all. So.. I can say in all honesty.. I cak up 100% what Kermit, Jen and Wingnut are posting. I love yah all here at SM and also the folks at freebirds. I may as well resign from there now that I suppose I outed myself as well. I didnt do a whole hell of alot there. I really didnt have time due to work. I read all what Kyle has posted and PLEASE people.. listen to Kermit..Jen and Wingnut.

Now.. I guess I differed this thread.. lol  Anyhow.. I really need to go and get a shower and get the hell out of the house~!

Have a Happy New Year everyone !!

Jen and Wing.. I apologize.. but reading page after page after page.. I wanted others to know you guys are not full of shit !!
 

Awwww,  so good to see you, Angie.

 Hi sweety ~!  Great to see you to and others! I don't get to read much here lately. Sad

Jen.. luv yah and you  guys are doing a great job and just wanted to sticj up for you all.

Wreck.. I have not heard from Robots lately... I got an email a few months ago.. I responded and have not heard from him since. Sad

Klass.. God love yah for still being here !!!  You certainly have a heart of gold the patience of a saint!  Smile


Ok.. for real gotta get going. Hope to chat with you guys again soon. Have a few days off this week !  Hugs and miss yah all ! 
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texasmom
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ARUBA: It's all about Natalee...we won't give up!


« Reply #244 on: December 31, 2008, 04:13:13 PM »

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

Ummm.. make it 4 now... 

I been reading several pages.. and YES.. I read and seen it all. So.. I can say in all honesty.. I cak up 100% what Kermit, Jen and Wingnut are posting. I love yah all here at SM and also the folks at freebirds. I may as well resign from there now that I suppose I outed myself as well. I didnt do a whole hell of alot there. I really didnt have time due to work. I read all what Kyle has posted and PLEASE people.. listen to Kermit..Jen and Wingnut.

Now.. I guess I differed this thread.. lol  Anyhow.. I really need to go and get a shower and get the hell out of the house~!

Have a Happy New Year everyone !!

Jen and Wing.. I apologize.. but reading page after page after page.. I wanted others to know you guys are not full of shit !!
 

Thanks Angie, and good to see you!!!!  

I appreciate your doing this, but I had no doubts about wingnut and jen's sincerity.

Happy New Year!!!!

OMG, I can't believe I left Kermit out!  I believe them all.  
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I stand with the girl, Natalee Holloway.

"I can look back over the past 10 years and there were no steps wasted, and there are no regrets,'' she said. "I did all I knew to do and I think that gives me greater peace now." "I've lived every parent's worst nightmare and I'm the parent that nobody wants to be," she said.

Beth Holloway, 2015 interview with Greta van Susteren
Angiex911dsptchr
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« Reply #245 on: December 31, 2008, 04:13:19 PM »

I would like to know how Lisa purports to know what Kyle posted or did not post in Freebirds. 3 actual members (Kermit, wingnut, and jen) relay what/when he actually posted. Kyle doesn't refute what they say to anyone but Lisa or Hotshot. I can understand you believing any and everything Kyle tells you personally -- but to totally dismiss what people WHO WERE THERE (Freebirds) say is simply putting your head in the sand.

Ummm.. make it 4 now... 

I been reading several pages.. and YES.. I read and seen it all. So.. I can say in all honesty.. I cak up 100% what Kermit, Jen and Wingnut are posting. I love yah all here at SM and also the folks at freebirds. I may as well resign from there now that I suppose I outed myself as well. I didnt do a whole hell of alot there. I really didnt have time due to work. I read all what Kyle has posted and PLEASE people.. listen to Kermit..Jen and Wingnut.

Now.. I guess I differed this thread.. lol  Anyhow.. I really need to go and get a shower and get the hell out of the house~!

Have a Happy New Year everyone !!

Jen and Wing.. I apologize.. but reading page after page after page.. I wanted others to know you guys are not full of shit !!
 


Hey Ang!  You did more than you know.  There were many times that you held me up.  I hope you have a FAB New Year.  You deserve it more than most.

Love ya Sistah!

Back at yah Wing and Happy New Year Anna !!!   
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Blonde
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« Reply #246 on: December 31, 2008, 04:14:08 PM »

Subject: Caps

I have asked repeatedly for many months for those who doubt Caps to tell me the reasons why.  Show me some proof he's not who he claims to be or from where he claims to be from.  I've never received any proof that he is not who he claims to be, or that he is only here as a diversion.  The only things that were posted about these doubts in many instances I found to be as cryptic as some of Caps posts.  From my own communications with him fairly recently, I started to have my own doubts about some things.  Basically how he knew certain things, and how that information changed from what he'd already told me.  

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.

In the past I have stood up for Caps when the basis of doubts was a post he made on the seven sins, the post was obviously cut and pasted from somewhere else.  The claim was that because of that post Caps was a master of the English language and was deceiving us all with his usual somewhat broken English way of speaking.  That was not proof in my opinion.  This was not the only time I stood by him, there were others.  Each time I was attacked for defending him; but was never provided any information that proved that Caps was/is deceiving us.  If there is information that proves that Caps is not from Aruba, is not who he claims to be; and that he was involved in a conspiracy...I would like to know about it.  Please!

From Caps own admissions I know he met with John Silvetti, from my understanding this is what he believed Dave Holloway wanted him to do.  From my understanding Caps has never communicated with Dave Holloway other than through email, although he provided other means for Dave to contact him.  Caps has also told me that he never met or had dealings with anyone else on the Persistence.  From my perspective of my discussions with Caps and what I have read here, I believe there is a possibility that he and his information was used to further the agenda of others.

I have read Caps original logic report that was sent to some in January from what I can tell.  I have only received and read it in the past few months.  From my understanding he researched the logic of Natalee being placed in all of the ponds that have been mentioned, the most logical conclusion to the research was that she was placed in the pond at Monserat.

I've checked the sitemeter before too, and know that there were times that he was here and Aruba did show up.  

I have a lot of questions, and I also have an open mind.  I want any and all information that is known to help me decide if I was duped/conned or whatever.  What I have said in the past was my belief from the information I had.  So far I don't have any information that convinces me otherwise.

I will repeat this because this is why I am here.

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.
 
Unless you know his IP ( in Aruba this rotates)  it could just have been a guest from Aruba or a a lurker.
 unless when you click the  Recent Visitors by Referrals
Detail   Referring URL
   http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4306.1200link
and it took you right to his post.Then for sure it was him.

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Anna
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« Reply #247 on: December 31, 2008, 04:14:52 PM »



So why can't he change his mind about John Silvetti? Why is that an untruth and conspiracy because in hindsight after emotions have died down and he had time to reflect upon what happened and he decides he over reacted in regards to his concerns...that you call FACTS...why is that "about face" so unbelievable...because it ruined your conspiracy?

Look lady - I don't know who you are, and I don't really care.  But what you're calling MY conspiracy is not mine at all.

They are KYLE's beliefs, KYLE's words, and KYLE's concerns - and those are all separate from the FACTS Kyle shared with us as well.

And what's rather comical about this post of yours is - the fact that Kyle KNOWS Silvetti was self serving when that trap was found, and the fact that Kyle BELIEVED that witness to be full of crap, but then comes back and tells us differently after working for Silvetti, only re-enforced the questions in my mind about something hinky going on between John and this witness.

Not the other way around like you posted.



so you got a "hinky feeling" That is not PROOF of the conspiracy you are putting out here.

And really what you should have said is "YOU believe Kyle believed". Because you just said he stated he doesn't believes that now.

It's all pure speculation on your part.

You're not even making sense any more.  I would suggest you go back and carefully re-read everything that has been posted by Kermit, wingnut and myself about what Kyle has said.

That really might be helpful to you.

Including my letter that clearly stated - NONE of Kyle's words that have been posted here were taken out of context.

Best of luck to you - I'm not playing your games any more.


So how were you to know Kyle had had this change of heart in the interim from the time he made the posts until he resurfaced?  Should we all check back with each other to see if anybody has changed their mind about something?  Aren't people usually responsible for getting that information on a board themselves?

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PERSONA NON GRATA

All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
truthseeker2
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« Reply #248 on: December 31, 2008, 04:15:18 PM »

Thanx Truthseeker2.Forgot to respond to the last response. Will stand with the Frog until the finality then take my thoughts from there.If i'm wrong i will Eat crow then bury my head in the sand rightfully so... .Until then.Ribbit...

LOL.  I just hate that it appears sides are to be taken, sotospeak.  But I guess it is what it is.   
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SunnyinTX
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« Reply #249 on: December 31, 2008, 04:15:28 PM »

Subject: Caps

I have asked repeatedly for many months for those who doubt Caps to tell me the reasons why.  Show me some proof he's not who he claims to be or from where he claims to be from.  I've never received any proof that he is not who he claims to be, or that he is only here as a diversion.  The only things that were posted about these doubts in many instances I found to be as cryptic as some of Caps posts.  From my own communications with him fairly recently, I started to have my own doubts about some things.  Basically how he knew certain things, and how that information changed from what he'd already told me.  

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.

In the past I have stood up for Caps when the basis of doubts was a post he made on the seven sins, the post was obviously cut and pasted from somewhere else.  The claim was that because of that post Caps was a master of the English language and was deceiving us all with his usual somewhat broken English way of speaking.  That was not proof in my opinion.  This was not the only time I stood by him, there were others.  Each time I was attacked for defending him; but was never provided any information that proved that Caps was/is deceiving us.  If there is information that proves that Caps is not from Aruba, is not who he claims to be; and that he was involved in a conspiracy...I would like to know about it.  Please!

From Caps own admissions I know he met with John Silvetti, from my understanding this is what he believed Dave Holloway wanted him to do.  From my understanding Caps has never communicated with Dave Holloway other than through email, although he provided other means for Dave to contact him.  Caps has also told me that he never met or had dealings with anyone else on the Persistence.  From my perspective of my discussions with Caps and what I have read here, I believe there is a possibility that he and his information was used to further the agenda of others.

I have read Caps original logic report that was sent to some in January from what I can tell.  I have only received and read it in the past few months.  From my understanding he researched the logic of Natalee being placed in all of the ponds that have been mentioned, the most logical conclusion to the research was that she was placed in the pond at Monserat.

I've checked the sitemeter before too, and know that there were times that he was here and Aruba did show up.  

I have a lot of questions, and I also have an open mind.  I want any and all information that is known to help me decide if I was duped/conned or whatever.  What I have said in the past was my belief from the information I had.  So far I don't have any information that convinces me otherwise.

I will repeat this because this is why I am here.

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.

Are you able to share that  logic report with us. I have no feelings towards Caps one way or another.....like the Shango stuff (Lala's do not blast me please) code tlaking posts drive me crazy and I do not even bother to read them
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Rest in Peace Caylee
Natalee, We will never forget.
Zahra, run with the Angels

PUT ON YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES AND GET OVER IT!  It's not about you or me.....It's about the Missing and the Murdered
ldstlou
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« Reply #250 on: December 31, 2008, 04:15:33 PM »



So why can't he change his mind about John Silvetti? Why is that an untruth and conspiracy because in hindsight after emotions have died down and he had time to reflect upon what happened and he decides he over reacted in regards to his concerns...that you call FACTS...why is that "about face" so unbelievable...because it ruined your conspiracy?

Look lady - I don't know who you are, and I don't really care.  But what you're calling MY conspiracy is not mine at all.

They are KYLE's beliefs, KYLE's words, and KYLE's concerns - and those are all separate from the FACTS Kyle shared with us as well.

And what's rather comical about this post of yours is - the fact that Kyle KNOWS Silvetti was self serving when that trap was found, and the fact that Kyle BELIEVED that witness to be full of crap, but then comes back and tells us differently after working for Silvetti, only re-enforced the questions in my mind about something hinky going on between John and this witness.

Not the other way around like you posted.



so you got a "hinky feeling" That is not PROOF of the conspiracy you are putting out here.

And really what you should have said is "YOU believe Kyle believed". Because you just said he stated he doesn't believes that now.

It's all pure speculation on your part.

You're not even making sense any more.  I would suggest you go back and carefully re-read everything that has been posted by Kermit, wingnut and myself about what Kyle has said.

That really might be helpful to you.

Including my letter that clearly stated - NONE of Kyle's words that have been posted here were taken out of context.

Best of luck to you - I'm not playing your games any more.

Read your letter clearly...and because you said so...I am supposed to believe right? ok then..NOT!

So keep disseminated half truths...and John stole evidence from the cage and placed it in the pond right? And Tim Miller and Dave and Beth and Jug were all duped, right? And The FBI were kept out of the loop right? And somehow Dateline missed it all right? Damn that crew of the Persistence were good!!! Oh...slipped it past the "thought print" Dr. too...he wasn't reading the members of the Crew too well either was he?
And Hotshot lead the conspiracy...and Lalas and I were all in on it.

It is so rediculous...it would be laughable if people weren't buying it.

But you still can't tell me if Beth, JQK and the FBI bought the conspiracy theory right?

You all have a Happy New Year!!
I am out of here.
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"No justice for Natalee - No tourists for Aruba!"
Magnolia
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« Reply #251 on: December 31, 2008, 04:17:19 PM »

LADIES & GENTLEMEN.....

Here in one hand we have Freebirds, Kermit, Jen, Wingnut, Angie and Rob.
all attesting to Kyle's post and ROV images that were posted at
the Freebirds site, but not turned over to authorities.  By his own
admission, Kyle tried to sell those images for his own profit.  All five
of these people say this is the truth.

In the other hand we have Kyle........

Who do you believe?
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The will of heaven be done in this and all things.
truthseeker2
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« Reply #252 on: December 31, 2008, 04:17:54 PM »


  

Is that you in the lower right?
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Ree
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« Reply #253 on: December 31, 2008, 04:18:08 PM »



So why can't he change his mind about John Silvetti? Why is that an untruth and conspiracy because in hindsight after emotions have died down and he had time to reflect upon what happened and he decides he over reacted in regards to his concerns...that you call FACTS...why is that "about face" so unbelievable...because it ruined your conspiracy?

Look lady - I don't know who you are, and I don't really care.  But what you're calling MY conspiracy is not mine at all.

They are KYLE's beliefs, KYLE's words, and KYLE's concerns - and those are all separate from the FACTS Kyle shared with us as well.

And what's rather comical about this post of yours is - the fact that Kyle KNOWS Silvetti was self serving when that trap was found, and the fact that Kyle BELIEVED that witness to be full of crap, but then comes back and tells us differently after working for Silvetti, only re-enforced the questions in my mind about something hinky going on between John and this witness.

Not the other way around like you posted.



so you got a "hinky feeling" That is not PROOF of the conspiracy you are putting out here.

And really what you should have said is "YOU believe Kyle believed". Because you just said he stated he doesn't believes that now.

It's all pure speculation on your part.

You're not even making sense any more.  I would suggest you go back and carefully re-read everything that has been posted by Kermit, wingnut and myself about what Kyle has said.

That really might be helpful to you.

Including my letter that clearly stated - NONE of Kyle's words that have been posted here were taken out of context.

Best of luck to you - I'm not playing your games any more.

Read your letter clearly...and because you said so...I am supposed to believe right? ok then..NOT!

So keep disseminated half truths...and John stole evidence from the cage and placed it in the pond right? And Tim Miller and Dave and Beth and Jug were all duped, right? And The FBI were kept out of the loop right? And somehow Dateline missed it all right? Damn that crew of the Persistence were good!!! Oh...slipped it past the "thought print" Dr. too...he wasn't reading the members of the Crew too well either was he?
And Hotshot lead the conspiracy...and Lalas and I were all in on it.

It is so rediculous...it would be laughable if people weren't buying it.

But you still can't tell me if Beth, JQK and the FBI bought the conspiracy theory right?

You all have a Happy New Year!!
I am out of here.

Pardon my bad...

 
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klaasend
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« Reply #254 on: December 31, 2008, 04:18:15 PM »

Subject: Caps

I have asked repeatedly for many months for those who doubt Caps to tell me the reasons why.  Show me some proof he's not who he claims to be or from where he claims to be from.  I've never received any proof that he is not who he claims to be, or that he is only here as a diversion.  The only things that were posted about these doubts in many instances I found to be as cryptic as some of Caps posts.  From my own communications with him fairly recently, I started to have my own doubts about some things.  Basically how he knew certain things, and how that information changed from what he'd already told me.  

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.

In the past I have stood up for Caps when the basis of doubts was a post he made on the seven sins, the post was obviously cut and pasted from somewhere else.  The claim was that because of that post Caps was a master of the English language and was deceiving us all with his usual somewhat broken English way of speaking.  That was not proof in my opinion.  This was not the only time I stood by him, there were others.  Each time I was attacked for defending him; but was never provided any information that proved that Caps was/is deceiving us.  If there is information that proves that Caps is not from Aruba, is not who he claims to be; and that he was involved in a conspiracy...I would like to know about it.  Please!

From Caps own admissions I know he met with John Silvetti, from my understanding this is what he believed Dave Holloway wanted him to do.  From my understanding Caps has never communicated with Dave Holloway other than through email, although he provided other means for Dave to contact him.  Caps has also told me that he never met or had dealings with anyone else on the Persistence.  From my perspective of my discussions with Caps and what I have read here, I believe there is a possibility that he and his information was used to further the agenda of others.

I have read Caps original logic report that was sent to some in January from what I can tell.  I have only received and read it in the past few months.  From my understanding he researched the logic of Natalee being placed in all of the ponds that have been mentioned, the most logical conclusion to the research was that she was placed in the pond at Monserat.

I've checked the sitemeter before too, and know that there were times that he was here and Aruba did show up.  

I have a lot of questions, and I also have an open mind.  I want any and all information that is known to help me decide if I was duped/conned or whatever.  What I have said in the past was my belief from the information I had.  So far I don't have any information that convinces me otherwise.

I will repeat this because this is why I am here.

I only want the truth. I want to know what happened to Natalee, where she is, and for her to be brought home.  Justice for her and her family would be the utmost, but I doubt that will ever happen.
 
Unless you know his IP ( in Aruba this rotates)  it could just have been a guest from Aruba or a a lurker.
 unless when you click the  Recent Visitors by Referrals
Detail   Referring URL
   http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4306.1200link
and it took you right to his post.Then for sure it was him.



Or if you are Admin and can see all the IP's he has used when posting.

Capslock is/was in and posting from Aruba, I do not doubt that.
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Anna
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« Reply #255 on: December 31, 2008, 04:20:32 PM »

What is this "conspiracy" that is spoken of?  I don't think it took a conspiracy for ALE to abscond with the evidence from the fish trap.

They took every shred of it AFAIK giving them sole control over what was submitted and what was not.  That seems to be a fact and not a theory.

Therein lies the problem.  We will never know what happened to whatever was taken from the trap.  Was it submitted, destroyed, did not even pertain to Natalee?

It's the not knowing and not having any way to find out that causes the concern.

JMO

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PERSONA NON GRATA

All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
truthseeker2
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« Reply #256 on: December 31, 2008, 04:21:11 PM »

Heyyyy.I thought i was the one stirring the pot....

   Ya gotta hold a little tighter to that spoon if you want to be the pot stirrer!
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truthseeker2
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« Reply #257 on: December 31, 2008, 04:23:05 PM »

Please fill me in on the latest with URINE...he is in Laos??

Yes, the louse is in Laos.  Hanging out at some bars that appear to attack tourists.  (Some things never change)

I really can't believe someone hasn't beat the crap  out of him yet.....and disappear his body

Me either, Sunny.  He just seems to drift from place to place drinking, smoking his weed and losing his money.  I would love to know who is financing his journeys.
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"Character is doing the right thing even when no one is looking"..J.C. Watts
jen3560
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« Reply #258 on: December 31, 2008, 04:23:22 PM »



So how were you to know Kyle had had this change of heart in the interim from the time he made the posts until he resurfaced?  Should we all check back with each other to see if anybody has changed their mind about something?  Aren't people usually responsible for getting that information on a board themselves?



No kidding!

We were pretty busy during that time - finding out Kyle had lied to us, and never sent the info to Beth, had never sent it to the FBI, finding out all sorts of interesting things about Silvetti's other companies (including his DUTCH company), nifty things about Shaefer and the class action suit against his company, restructuring of another one, selling off stocks of another one, resigning, .............well - we kind of had our hands full - too busy for sure to try mind reading a member who was in the North Sea.
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Anna
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« Reply #259 on: December 31, 2008, 04:25:09 PM »

If and when I change my mind about things I have posted here, I will come back and say so.  That's what people do.  If they don't do this, one normally would assume they stand by what they said.

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All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

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