Natalee Case Discussion #788 12/31/08 - 1/01/09

[2NJSons_Mom]

Mum,

I wondered how you were able to put names to posters here that Kermit alluded to.  I said I had the equation wrong and mentioned an underground thing I was not privy to...a reference hinting to the private forum. 

The mole question popped into my mind after the underground statement (thinking of the defunct TV show), and not specifically directed at you...., and no insult was intended.     

[SunnyinTX]

I don't believe for one second that Tim Miller was removed from the Persistence because he was an emotional liability.  Yea that's what I was told.  pppfffttt.

hahahahahahaha....that is a hoot!  yes Tim is emotional..passionate about what he does....but his emotion could only be called a liability by someone who was intimated by him....

[SunnyinTX]

Thanks snoopy!!

The Freebirds put a lot of time and effort into all the fifty some odd documents we produced.

It's a fantastic group of people who put their guts into it!!

Ya'll have been fantastic.....I have always wondered who you were...kinda like the Lone Ranger....WHO WAS THAT MASKED MAN!!

[klaasend]

ldstlou I wish you would re-think everything you have been told.  Search members for Kermit, Kyle, Tamikosmom, wingnut, jen3560.  Read all their posts.  They are not lying.  JMHO  you have been mis-lead.

Snoopy I have read the posts. The posts are copied and pasted from the Freebird's forum...taken out of context. I know what they are and I know what they all say by now. Because they were taken out of context, I went straight to the source and asked for an explanation. He responded openly and honestly in my opinion. I am not an idiot and don't believe I have been mislead.

However...when Kermit starts posting shoes and skulls being moved by John Silvetti from the cage to the pond and Lalas and me being a part of the grand conspiracy and "bubbles being burst" and single handily exposing the cover-up...THAT is suspicious to me.

Was Kyle not BANNED from Freebirds?Why?

Funny how people look at things in different ways.  I never got the impression that Kermit felt as though she was single handedly doing anything.

Ldstlou - ask Dave Holloway how he feels about Mark Purcell then tell me if you agree with everything Dave Holloway says.  Reminder, the Persistence search was arranged by TES and Dave Holloway, who inAruba does Dave Holloway listen to?  Who is best friends with Mark Purcell?  That alone should raise a red flag.

[bleachedblack]

buckeye:

I do have a little question.  JQK seemed to want to run with the trafficking story.  I just wonder if that is to bring the case to a level of international involvement.  This could permit an international investigation.  The investigation may come to the conclusion that there was no trafficking and the remains were hidden in a cage.  Is it important to "believe" in a bigger theory to legally involve more than internet posters and hidey hole sleuths??

truthseeker2:

I wondered the exact same thing when JQK was talking to Greta.  I even posted questions about it here at SM...but not many were interested in discussing it at that time.  If JQK can move this story or theory, I think it could get more international attention and put more pressure on Aruba to get to the truth.  At the very worst it could put a spotlight on this huge problem even if the truth about Natalee does not surface.

 

I think the idea of human trafficking as a means of possibly getting others more directly  ie FBI and/or Interpol involved in Natalees disappearance was tried  on Dr Phil show when he had Jamie Skeeters go to Mexico and sA. As for Tim going to Nicaragua, I seem to recall on Dateline it being said that Dave asked Tim to check out this new tip?

[truthseeker2]

buckeye:

I do have a little question.  JQK seemed to want to run with the trafficking story.  I just wonder if that is to bring the case to a level of international involvement.  This could permit an international investigation.  The investigation may come to the conclusion that there was no trafficking and the remains were hidden in a cage.  Is it important to "believe" in a bigger theory to legally involve more than internet posters and hidey hole sleuths??

truthseeker2:

I wondered the exact same thing when JQK was talking to Greta.  I even posted questions about it here at SM...but not many were interested in discussing it at that time.  If JQK can move this story or theory, I think it could get more international attention and put more pressure on Aruba to get to the truth.  At the very worst it could put a spotlight on this huge problem even if the truth about Natalee does not surface.

 

That is the only reason why I can think of JQK acting as if he believes Joran's latest BS story and I did mention it at the time.  I have said many times that I don't believe for one minute that JQK or Beth believe what Joran said in his last interview to Greta. 

Yes, Klaas, you did respond to my post back then.  I don't recall many other responses, though.  And, with all due respect, my response back to you then remains the same today.  Until the truth is known I leave all options open.  I know that may not be a popular stance anymore, and that's okay.  I'm not afraid to be a lonely monkey from time to time.

So far, nobody...no answers.

[Tamikosmom]

The domino effect in regards to accountability for what happened on the morning of May 30, 2005 as well as the persuing coverup dictates that justice will never be forthcoming for Natalee Holloway from an Aruban or Dutch courtroom.

Pressure has to be brought upon Aruba by the FBI if the family is to be afforded a measure of closure.  The truth regarding the contents of the cage/trap needs to be exposed and ...

Kyle ... your words imply that you could be the catalyst to a positive end.[/color]  Doing right is not always easy but ... it is right.

Janet

++++++++

'Scarborough Country' for July 14
updated 8:45 a.m. PT, Fri., July. 15, 2005

JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S STEPFATHER: Beth and I have been through this emotional roller coaster. And all we want is Natalee, whether she's alive or dead. We want to bring her back to the United States, and we'll leave and they can do whatever they want to do.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8551824/


'The Abrams Report' for July 1
updated 7:47 a.m. PT, Wed., July. 6, 2005

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER:  We cannot forget to demand and expect to have Natalee.  Natalee deserves to return to her country.  She deserves it, and everyone knows it, Martin, every single person.  Every single person knows that.  They know it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8485029/

[AZSunny]

ldstlou.Did Kyle turn over all pertinent information over to the Holloway family as well as the FBI in a timely manner?Yes or No?

See that's not specific enough, I want to know precisely WHEN KYLE turned over the information he thought he had to Beth/Jug and the FBI.  I would also want to know why KYLE was negotiating with the networks to gain financially from this prior to turning over what he thought he had to the family and FBI.

I understand Klaas.Ldstlou?WHEN did Kyle turn all pertinent information over to the FBI as well as the Holloway family?

I'm sorry guys - she's not going to be able to answer that, because it never happened.

I would like to see the creative dates that she may try and come back with though.    And see just how they correspond with what/when/how we (including Kyle) know transpired.

Thanx Jen.That is the point!If Kyle didn't turn information over in a timely manner and has mislead people.Why defend him?Let him speak for himself!

ok...in one post you ask me questions about when and what was turned over and in the next you say don't answer for him.

So you either do not know, or, you are afraid to say because of what it will reveal.  I think we know when it was turned over.  Way after the fact!!!

[SunnyinTX]

Lisa.....I didn't direct anything at you...please don't put words in my mouth.  You know me well enough to know that if I was directing this at you I would have said so. I am not known for being 'politically correct'.  I had an opportunity to read this entire thread this morning and I posted what I felt after reading it.  I don't know who I believe..I don't know what I believe...and reading this thread did nothing to help me.[/color]

Sorry Sunny, I was finishing up an online exam...and sorry for jumping the gun...feeling a bit ganged up on lately and a bit sensitive!!
Sorry I misread you post!!

And I think there is a lot of that misreading happening....while reading this morning there were many times I was tempted to respond....but decided it was best to  read and hope my questions would be answered. Some were and some weren't. But there was no sense in me adding to the ugliness I read among Monkeys towards each other.  Sometimes one has to repeat one's answers time and time again.....don't get on the defensive about it. Like I said...we all want the same thing....the truth....

[texasmom]

I don't believe for one second that Tim Miller was removed from the Persistence because he was an emotional liability.  Yea that's what I was told.  pppfffttt.

hahahahahahaha....that is a hoot!  yes Tim is emotional..passionate about what he does....but his emotion could only be called a liability by someone who was intimated by him....

Yes, I agree.  

[Blonde]

ldstlou I wish you would re-think everything you have been told.  Search members for Kermit, Kyle, Tamikosmom, wingnut, jen3560.  Read all their posts.  They are not lying.  JMHO  you have been mis-lead.

IMO Jug only know's what he has been told.

[Tamikosmom]

Was Kyle not BANNED from Freebirds?Why?

I do not know but maybe ... just maybe ... threats of litigation had something to do with Kyle being banned from the Natalee's Freebird's site.

Janet

+++++

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

Please feel free (if you'd like) to post this at your board.
 
During the journey of the Persistence to Aruba, Kyle reached out and emailed with us.  During that time, one of the questions posed to him was regarding protocol if/when Natalee's remains were found.
 
Kyle's response was that he was unsure, but felt that would be settled before the search began.
 
The cautions were given to him about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba's law enforcement, prosecutor's office, and its judiciary.
 
Contact with Kyle continued throughout the duration of the search by the Persistence.
 
Once back home, Kyle asked us for our help.  He was very concerned about the activities that transpired during their search - specifically surrounding the find of the fishing cage and its contents.  Kyle wanted our help in presenting this information in a factual way, to then be given to Natalee's family. 
 
This was March 18, 2008.  At that time, Kyle assured us he had just recently sent the images from the Dec 30th and Jan 7th dives to the FBI, but had never received a response from them.
 
We later found that to be false.
 
Also at that time, Beth's brother saw the images Kyle had shared with us - but none of the detail he shared later.

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage.  Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.
 
We later found out that never happened.

At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.
 
This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.
 
Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.
 
At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.
 
The next step was to publish this information at our blog.
 
One of our members felt we were betraying Kyle in doing so, contacted him, and he re-surfaced at our site with threats of litigation against us - stating this was his "intellectual property" and we could not use it.
 
That of course concerned us greatly - as none of us could afford to be sued.
 
He also stated at that time, Luis Shaefer had just recently sold the rights of the video of these images to a broadcast company for the purposes of a documentary.
 
We contacted legal counsel and were advised to keep our distance from any Persistence crew member, in the face of potential obstruction/accessory charges.
 
At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.
 
Kyle did tell us human remains were found in that fish cage.
 
Kyle did tell us about John Silvetti's intent to open an office on the island of Aruba, to enable him ease in conducting business in South America, and Aruba.
 
Kyle also told us of John's absolute refusal to give that fish cage and its contents any credence - before even it was inspected on Jan 7th.
 
Kyle told us in no uncertain terms that Tim Miller and Dateline were abruptly removed from the Persistence on Dec 30, resulting in only Persistence crew being aboard between that date and the Jan 7 dive of the Arubans.
 
Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.
 
Regards,
 
Former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator
Natalee and her family deserve justice - and we will not let up until they have it!

[jen3560]

Blonde,

You made a post in the last thread about Caps posting, and a lack of Aruban people on the meter.

Just wanted you to know there were others who noticed that as well.  On numerous occasions. 

[SunnyinTX]

ldstlou.Did Kyle turn over all pertinent information over to the Holloway family as well as the FBI in a timely manner?Yes or No?

See that's not specific enough, I want to know precisely WHEN KYLE turned over the information he thought he had to Beth/Jug and the FBI.  I would also want to know why KYLE was negotiating with the networks to gain financially from this prior to turning over what he thought he had to the family and FBI.

I understand Klaas.Ldstlou?WHEN did Kyle turn all pertinent information over to the FBI as well as the Holloway family?

I'm sorry guys - she's not going to be able to answer that, because it never happened.

I would like to see the creative dates that she may try and come back with though.    And see just how they correspond with what/when/how we (including Kyle) know transpired.

Thanx Jen.That is the point!If Kyle didn't turn information over in a timely manner and has mislead people.Why defend him?Let him speak for himself!

ok...in one post you ask me questions about when and what was turned over and in the next you say don't answer for him.

So you either do not know, or, you are afraid to say because of what it will reveal.  I think we know when it was turned over.  Way after the fact!!!

Oh Hells Bells...Lisa if you know please answer...if you don't just say you don't know.

Monks......we ALL need to work together.........

[jen3560]

KeeptheFaith and Janet,

After we discovered this information had been withheld from US authorities, we contacted legal counsel, and were advised to keep our distance from Persistence crew members and benefactors - that is when and why Kyle was banned.

That occurred the end of September.

[sharon]

Funny how people look at things in different ways.  I never got the impression that Kermit felt as though she was single handedly doing anything.

Ldstlou - ask Dave Holloway how he feels about Mark Purcell then tell me if you agree with everything Dave Holloway says.  Reminder, the Persistence search was arranged by TES and Dave Holloway, who inAruba does Dave Holloway listen to?  Who is best friends with Mark Purcell?  That alone should raise a red flag.

Exactly klaas! Big Red Flag.

This has bothered me from the start

And where it could lead 

[texasmom]

Blonde,

You made a post in the last thread about Caps posting, and a lack of Aruban people on the meter.

Just wanted you to know there were others who noticed that as well.  On numerous occasions. 

Do you have any idea where the posts were coming from?  TIA

[MumInOhio]

Quote Jenn..

Mum,

If you look at the dates of those posts by Caps, versus the date he sent his email to Dave Holloway of "I know where she is" and including the post by Caps about all Dave needs to do is get some pumps to bring her home......

Well - you'll see that Caps was still jumping from pond to pond to pond at the time he was stating those things.

Then miraculously comes this "witness" that Caps kept saying over and over was needed.

Then all of a sudden it's the Monserrat pond - not any of the other two ponds Caps was discussing (those other ponds were still his focus when he emailed Dave).

Combine that with Hotshot claiming to be the one who put Caps and this "witness" in touch with John Silvetti.

Take that one step further, and look at Silvetti's utter lack of attention to that cage - to the point where he cussed at Kyle for trying to pursue the matter.
 
Then look at Hot Shot's posts about removing items from the cage.

Then look at Caps posts regarding a shoe and human remains in the pond......

Pardon...If I read Caps posts...

I have read Caps posts at least 10 times. I can find anything that Caps has posted in this Forum in a reasonable amount of time. When I get my computer back I will be able to find them a whole lot faster!

I have my own thoughts on Caps which I expressed some of months and months ago.

Please do not try and patronize me!

I have been questioning the bits and pieces that Kermit is using to back up her posts. They are out of context and since November if you had read my posts you would know I have been questioning it.

My post last night was directed to Kermit about this. She knows this...She reads my posts. I do not have a clue what anyone else, you, Muffy or 2NJ are referring to as I only looked at that part of Kermit's post that I have been questioning.

Are we clear on this now?

[wingnut]

The Freebirds waited for Kyle to do the right thing.  And waited.  And waited.  But it seems the right thing for Kyle is a network deal. 




Perhaps the Player is being played........   

[jen3560]

Blonde,

You made a post in the last thread about Caps posting, and a lack of Aruban people on the meter.

Just wanted you to know there were others who noticed that as well.  On numerous occasions. 

Do you have any idea where the posts were coming from?  TIA

No - sorry.  I would have no way of knowing that.