Caylee Marie Anthony, 2, Missing 6/16/08 Orlando FL (Remains Found) #85

[Shell]

Ahhhh, da sparkenator.    I do understand and can relate, in some ways.  Thank you for sharing this.  I believe that what we experience in life can serve to make us stronger, and a help to others as we share what we've learned along the way. 

Interestingly enough, many folks can relate to this case, either having a loved one who this reminds them of, or knowing someone similiar to one of the Anthony's.  Understanding this family and the dynamics can certainly help folks in understanding their own loved ones and friends. 

I agree with several of the points that you've made.  A person like this, their behavior can and usually does dominate the family.  If for no other reason than everyone needs to be on their toes and alert, every moment of the day.  But especially if the family members get sucked right into the behaviors, either enabling them, becoming victims of them, or both.  We see this in the A's family. 

And sad to say, the great majority of dysfunctional families have as its most central focus to 'appear' normal to those outside the family, and at any cost.  Family secrets are not mentioned, not even whispered about, even within the family!  What happens in the family, stays in the family.  When one person begins to make changes, it's threatening to family members and can cause huge panic within the circle, because it will usually have a ripple effect.  That's why when someone in a family such as the A's do seek help from a therapist, other family members either try to convince them there's nothing wrong, or exclude that person from the circle saying 's/he's the sick one, not any of us.'  Right now I believe we're seeing the A's still trying to convince everyone that there's nothing wrong.  The day is coming when they will very likely turn the tables.  Because for them to admit, even to themselves, that yesss there is a problem, means they will have to look at their own possible part in whatever that problem is.  Many folks will stubbornly refuse to see any of it, even into old age and take it to their grave.  I fear that Cindy may very likely be one of these type of people. 
 

I agree, and I also think that the parents of Casey Anthony were next on the list. I knew a family who was in serious denial of their son's illness. It ended with their death at his hands.

[mytime]

Trying to put myself in their shoes and I think it is good for Lee to move in with his parents in this situation. Is this a fact that he is moving/moved back in?

Yes, he's back.  There are some photos posted of his trash where he moved.

Nobody that I have seen has mentioned the current finacial climate, which is understandable considering this is the Caylee M. Anthony thread. It is sad to me for people to be losing their jobs, no matter who they are. Without knowing all of the facts, I am feeling sad for any member of this family who was not involved in any crime against Caylee.

I wonder if the lady who took the Anthony's garbage will be visiting Lees old place?

  

[Kimber]

[/quote]

Thank you Kimber, it is very hard and a helpless feeling.  I don't know when you had your baby but I hope all is well with him.  Thank you for sharing and prayers.  MM
[/quote]

Marymary,
 My son just turned 14 on the 29 of Dec. He is doing very well! Thank you for asking. But, we spent 29 days in the NICU. He came home with a heart monitor. I was the worst 29 days of my life. I remember it all just like it was yesterday. He was so tiny. But, Thank the good LORD, all is well now. You would never know by looking at him that he was a preemie. I hope and pray that your grandbabies have the same outcome as my son. I know all to well the feeling of helplessness that you have.

Sorry for the O/T.

[Shell]

It is one of those times when I am speachless so I will call it a night and go escape into a good book. Prayers for those hurting, prayers for Caylee, may God bless her soul. Good night you all.

[Sdb]

I just can't understand it. It says something about Cindy as a mother, that Casey's things were still around, and in perfect condition, when Caylee came along. She didn't throw them out or sell them like most parents would have done. She must really have loved having kids that age.

Yes it does, and as much as I hate to admit it, it says something nice. Especially in Florida, where most houses don't have basements, and storage is at a premium. After all that has happened, I have a hard time thinking nice things about Cindy. (I am sorry to say)

My mom saved our favorite toys, and still has a laundry basket full of my brothers toys at her house for his kids to play with. Our favorites she gave to us when we moved out along with our baby book, first Christmas dress etc. She still has my baby bed, even though we have explained that the rails are too far apart and that there were no rules in 1964, but to no avail. But she is the best mom any kid could have ever wanted. (No I am not prejudiced)   

I just try to put myself in Casey's head, and I see her as so mean, selfish and evil, that I can't see her finding joy in what most of us would.

I don't think that is Cindy's doing. It's Casey's. My sister was EXACTLY like Casey. She kept everything. She didn't play with her toys. It was so weird. She would have Easter and Halloween candy stashed away for years. There wasn't one ounce of maternal instinct in her whole body. She lived in a fantasy world and lied through her teeth 24/7. It wasn't my parents fault, they were loving and raised six kids. My sister was born this way. But they never got her any help, I'm know they struggled, making excuses for her, treating her extra special (as she demanded), I guess it was just easier to give into her than face her wrath. She was relentless.

[dottie]

I still have 10 pages to catch up but just wanted to get this out.....as far as DID or MPD is concerened, I don't think Casey fits the critera.  I still believe that she has Antisocial Personality Disorder with Narcissic tendancys
Casey fits the definition in every way.
Aug 17, 2007

 Psychopath, sociopath, or antisocial - all refer to a manipulative person with an alarming lack of conscience. And this personality isn't as uncommon as you may think.

What is Antisocial Personality Disorder?
APD (also called ASPD) is a psychological personality disorder characterized by lack of empathy or conscience, a difficulty controlling impulses and manipulative behaviors. This disorder is sometimes also referred to as psychopathy or sociopathy, however, Antisocial Personality Disorder is the clinical terminology used for diagnosis (APA 2000).

The term antisocial personality is commonly misunderstood as referring to someone who has poor social skills, but usually the opposite is true. Psychopaths can be charming, and are adept at focusing their cold, calculating efforts solely on self-gratification, typically at the expense of others (Hare 1999, Black 1999).

Subcriminal Psychopaths
We’ve heard of psychopaths in the news and seen them portrayed by Hollywood, but highly publicized cases of psychopathy are uncommon examples of this disorder. Only a minority of diagnosable psychopaths are murderers. Most victimize others via non-lethal means, manipulating, deceiving, and swindling the unsuspecting (Hare 1999, Black 1999).

Incidence of APD

The National Comorbidity Survey, using DSM-III-R criteria, found that 5.8% of males and 1.2% of females showed evidence of a lifetime risk for the disorder. However the prevalence in penitentiaries has been estimated to be much higher. Antisocial personality disorder also shows an elevated prevalence among patients in alcohol or other drug abuse treatment programs than in the general population.

The Psychopathic Emotional Deficit
Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder can almost be thought of as emotionally disabled in that they appear to experience a very limited range of human emotions. They know the difference between what society considers “right” and “wrong,” but do not experience, and cannot empathize with, the feelings of suffering, remorse, elation and love that are normally part of the human experience. Research has shown that individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder are also indifferent to the threat of physical pain and punishment in general, displaying no indications of fear when threatened (Millon 1998, Hare 1999).


Diagnosis of APD

According to the DSM-IV-TR (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), in order to be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, a patient must have a persistent history of disregard for and violation of the others’ rights, occurring since age 15, evidenced by three (or more) of the following seven traits:

failure to conform to social norms (evidenced by repeated unlawful behaviors)
deceitfulness, repeated lying, use of aliases, or manipulating others for personal profit or pleasure
impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
irritability and aggressiveness (repeated physical fights or assaults)
reckless disregard for safety of self or others
consistent irresponsibility (such as repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations)
lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another 
                                          Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance, need for admiration, extreme self-involvement, and lack of empathy for others. Individuals with this disorder are usually arrogantly self-assured and confident. They expect to be noticed as superior.

[Sdb]

I still have 10 pages to catch up but just wanted to get this out.....as far as DID or MPD is concerened, I don't think Casey fits the critera.  I still believe that she has Antisocial Personality Disorder with Narcissic tendancys
Casey fits the definition in every way.
Aug 17, 2007

 Psychopath, sociopath, or antisocial - all refer to a manipulative person with an alarming lack of conscience. And this personality isn't as uncommon as you may think.

What is Antisocial Personality Disorder?
APD (also called ASPD) is a psychological personality disorder characterized by lack of empathy or conscience, a difficulty controlling impulses and manipulative behaviors. This disorder is sometimes also referred to as psychopathy or sociopathy, however, Antisocial Personality Disorder is the clinical terminology used for diagnosis (APA 2000).

The term antisocial personality is commonly misunderstood as referring to someone who has poor social skills, but usually the opposite is true. Psychopaths can be charming, and are adept at focusing their cold, calculating efforts solely on self-gratification, typically at the expense of others (Hare 1999, Black 1999).

Subcriminal Psychopaths
We’ve heard of psychopaths in the news and seen them portrayed by Hollywood, but highly publicized cases of psychopathy are uncommon examples of this disorder. Only a minority of diagnosable psychopaths are murderers. Most victimize others via non-lethal means, manipulating, deceiving, and swindling the unsuspecting (Hare 1999, Black 1999).

Incidence of APD

The National Comorbidity Survey, using DSM-III-R criteria, found that 5.8% of males and 1.2% of females showed evidence of a lifetime risk for the disorder. However the prevalence in penitentiaries has been estimated to be much higher. Antisocial personality disorder also shows an elevated prevalence among patients in alcohol or other drug abuse treatment programs than in the general population.

The Psychopathic Emotional Deficit
Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder can almost be thought of as emotionally disabled in that they appear to experience a very limited range of human emotions. They know the difference between what society considers “right” and “wrong,” but do not experience, and cannot empathize with, the feelings of suffering, remorse, elation and love that are normally part of the human experience. Research has shown that individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder are also indifferent to the threat of physical pain and punishment in general, displaying no indications of fear when threatened (Millon 1998, Hare 1999).


Diagnosis of APD

According to the DSM-IV-TR (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), in order to be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, a patient must have a persistent history of disregard for and violation of the others’ rights, occurring since age 15, evidenced by three (or more) of the following seven traits:

failure to conform to social norms (evidenced by repeated unlawful behaviors)
deceitfulness, repeated lying, use of aliases, or manipulating others for personal profit or pleasure
impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
irritability and aggressiveness (repeated physical fights or assaults)
reckless disregard for safety of self or others
consistent irresponsibility (such as repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations)
lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another 
                                          Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance, need for admiration, extreme self-involvement, and lack of empathy for others. Individuals with this disorder are usually arrogantly self-assured and confident. They expect to be noticed as superior.

Dottie, I have to agree with you. My sister exhibited all those traits. This poor man keeps flowers on her grave, for over ten years now. She convinced him she secretly worked for the CIA, I kid you not. Whereas, she never could hold a job.

[Bearlyhere]

Hi Bearly!! 

Hope you are behaving yourself!!   

Oops!  Went Qwerty!

[janetruth]

With APD and MND sharing so many characteristics, it gets very difficult to determine, without an actual evaluation, which (if either) might be Casey's problem.

It's my understanding that APD people tend to have a bit of a rap sheet by the time they get to be Casey's age, whereas MND people seem to stay on the right side of the law (though barely), until they lose it once and for all.  Scott Peterson, for instance, though I know Ablow wrote that he fit the APD profile.

Is there any way to find out if Casey had any sort of Juvenile record?

O/T:  is my new avatar to creepy?  I actually caught the shot as the cat was yawning, and he wasn't being as psycho as he looks.

[Bearlyhere]

With APD and MND sharing so many characteristics, it gets very difficult to determine, without an actual evaluation, which (if either) might be Casey's problem.

It's my understanding that APD people tend to have a bit of a rap sheet by the time they get to be Casey's age, whereas MND people seem to stay on the right side of the law (though barely), until they lose it once and for all.  Scott Peterson, for instance, though I know Ablow wrote that he fit the APD profile.

Is there any way to find out if Casey had any sort of Juvenile record?

O/T:  is my new avatar to creepy?  I actually caught the shot as the cat was yawning, and he wasn't being as psycho as he looks.

My first thought was, YIKES.  Now that you explained it, it's not creepy.  I think we should put that picture in Sea's omelet, that will make him stop petting the kitties! 

 

[dottie]

Sbd, Sorry about your sister.  I know it was hard on you and your family...actually it is always harder on the loved ones than the person with these disorders because they think they are just fine and the rest of us are crazy.

I think that Cindy and George also have some mental issues, not sure yet to what extent but that aside Casey had to be a handfull for them.  I wish they had gotten help for her sooner....seems Cindy had finally reached the end of her rope and went to a counselor...but it was too late. 

[dottie]

With APD and MND sharing so many characteristics, it gets very difficult to determine, without an actual evaluation, which (if either) might be Casey's problem.

It's my understanding that APD people tend to have a bit of a rap sheet by the time they get to be Casey's age, whereas MND people seem to stay on the right side of the law (though barely), until they lose it once and for all.  Scott Peterson, for instance, though I know Ablow wrote that he fit the APD profile.

Is there any way to find out if Casey had any sort of Juvenile record?

O/T:  is my new avatar to creepy?  I actually caught the shot as the cat was yawning, and he wasn't being as psycho as he looks.

Yes, you are right there are alot of similarities and it's very hard to diagnose.  I have no experience other than I know people with both and Casey seems like the perfect combination of both APD and MND. Juvenile records are usually sealed unless they relate directly to the crime such as another murder...to show a pattern of behavior.

[Fuzzball]

Just curious what you all think..

If you were in this man's shoes.. the PI's.. and you were 100% innocent of any wrong-doing.. had no clue the body was there, etc.. would you hold a presser to profess your innocence?  Would it make more sense to you, to just not say anything, or to call up the media? Or - because of the fact this case is so high profile- do you really have no choice but to step in front of a mic?

The case is too high profile. I would feel the need to clear my good name, esp if I had read any forums about the case or seen any of the comments to news articles lately.

[janetruth]

With APD and MND sharing so many characteristics, it gets very difficult to determine, without an actual evaluation, which (if either) might be Casey's problem.

It's my understanding that APD people tend to have a bit of a rap sheet by the time they get to be Casey's age, whereas MND people seem to stay on the right side of the law (though barely), until they lose it once and for all.  Scott Peterson, for instance, though I know Ablow wrote that he fit the APD profile.

Is there any way to find out if Casey had any sort of Juvenile record?

O/T:  is my new avatar to creepy?  I actually caught the shot as the cat was yawning, and he wasn't being as psycho as he looks.

Yes, you are right there are alot of similarities and it's very hard to diagnose.  I have no experience other than I know people with both and Casey seems like the perfect combination of both APD and MND. Juvenile records are usually sealed unless they relate directly to the crime such as another murder...to show a pattern of behavior.

In "Erased:  Missing Women, Murdered Wives," Marilee Strong says that the men who kill their wives, girlfriends, pregnant (a la Peterson) or not, suffer from both, plus something she calls Machiavellianism.  As the name implies, this last included a strong need to manipulate people, even when there seems to be nothing to be gained.  Manipulation for its own sake.  Anyway, when these three come together, havoc ensues.  The book is worth reading in relation to this case, I think.

[dottie]

With APD and MND sharing so many characteristics, it gets very difficult to determine, without an actual evaluation, which (if either) might be Casey's problem.

It's my understanding that APD people tend to have a bit of a rap sheet by the time they get to be Casey's age, whereas MND people seem to stay on the right side of the law (though barely), until they lose it once and for all.  Scott Peterson, for instance, though I know Ablow wrote that he fit the APD profile.

Is there any way to find out if Casey had any sort of Juvenile record?

O/T:  is my new avatar to creepy?  I actually caught the shot as the cat was yawning, and he wasn't being as psycho as he looks.

Yes, you are right there are alot of similarities and it's very hard to diagnose.  I have no experience other than I know people with both and Casey seems like the perfect combination of both APD and MND. Juvenile records are usually sealed unless they relate directly to the crime such as another murder...to show a pattern of behavior.

In "Erased:  Missing Women, Murdered Wives," Marilee Strong says that the men who kill their wives, girlfriends, pregnant (a la Peterson) or not, suffer from both, plus something she calls Machiavellianism.  As the name implies, this last included a strong need to manipulate people, even when there seems to be nothing to be gained.  Manipulation for its own sake.  Anyway, when these three come together, havoc ensues.  The book is worth reading in relation to this case, I think.

Interesting, I'll have to check that out.

[dottie]

Just curious what you all think..

If you were in this man's shoes.. the PI's.. and you were 100% innocent of any wrong-doing.. had no clue the body was there, etc.. would you hold a presser to profess your innocence?  Would it make more sense to you, to just not say anything, or to call up the media? Or - because of the fact this case is so high profile- do you really have no choice but to step in front of a mic?

The case is too high profile. I would feel the need to clear my good name, esp if I had read any forums about the case or seen any of the comments to news articles lately.

I agree Fuzzball

[dottie]

 I keep getting kicked off so I'm heading to bed.

Goodnight,
GoldieTX, Desdemona, Brachiate, Fuzzball, janetruth, jaggard19

[Fuzzball]

WTH???  I am watching NG and she is showing Lee and Casey talking while at the jail.  I never caught this before that Lee was talking about someone he talked to that verified that Casey did work with the people she said she worked with while at Universal.  What could his reason be behind saying this???  Is he saying it because he knows it is being recorded???  We all know that can't possibly be true. 

On another note, I don't wish to cause pain or controversy but I have been pretty convinced from the beginning that Casey will be portrayed as having Multiple Personalities, and that she is actually Zani, Casey, and probably several other personalities.

I doubt that will work at all, for the simple reason that Casey has never used another name or acted like a different person. The thing about her e-mail and cell phone records is that there's no lost time, no memory lapses, and no claiming to be someone else.

[trimmonthelake]

Good Mornig Monkeys.  Rise and shine.
Here is a little snack for all the good monkeys.

[trimmonthelake]

With APD and MND sharing so many characteristics, it gets very difficult to determine, without an actual evaluation, which (if either) might be Casey's problem.

It's my understanding that APD people tend to have a bit of a rap sheet by the time they get to be Casey's age, whereas MND people seem to stay on the right side of the law (though barely), until they lose it once and for all.  Scott Peterson, for instance, though I know Ablow wrote that he fit the APD profile.

Is there any way to find out if Casey had any sort of Juvenile record?

O/T:  is my new avatar to creepy?  I actually caught the shot as the cat was yawning, and he wasn't being as psycho as he looks.

My first thought was, YIKES.  Now that you explained it, it's not creepy.  I think we should put that picture in Sea's omelet, that will make him stop petting the kitties!