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« on: January 06, 2009, 07:47:51 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Breaking News in Caylee Anthony Case

Aired January 5, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: And also tonight, Jane, we learned that John Travolta, Hollywood megastar, goes to the Bahamas for new years with his family and his young son die, tragically and unexpectedly. And Jane, the public clamoring for the autopsy report, which is so wrong.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR, ISSUES: Yeah. Thank you very much, Nancy. Can`t wait to hear it. "Nancy Grace" starts right now.

GRACE: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful two-year-old beautiful Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching, culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony`s home confirmed, those of little Caylee. Manner of death, homicide. The little girl`s remains completely skeletonized making cause of death nearly impossible to determine.

Orange County investigators literally on hands and knees for days searching, searching for hundreds of tiny undeveloped bone. This, after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a skull. A tiny human skull literally rolls out covered in light-colored hair. Hair still intact because a thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.

Bombshell tonight, Casey Anthony`s private investigators at that crime scene weeks before the little remains ever reported to police. Why? Just what information led them there? How`d they know to go there? What did they see? The whole thing reportedly caught on tape. But did the private eye record over the tape? Why? Why did they destroy the tape? What was on that tape? Did the defense discover Caylee`s remains weeks before police, and then keep it quiet? Does this tie the tot mom directly to her daughter`s body? Was the video destroyed to cover up? Investigators want that tape, but defense is throwing up road blocks. Why?

And tonight, another bombshell. Reports surface tot mom researched an episode of the TV show, "One Tree Hill" where a little child is kidnapped by -- the nanny. And also we learn tonight the tot mom gets a special OK to view Caylee`s funeral on TV. This, as Caylee`s remains sit all alone at a funeral home. What`s the hold up on a proper funeral service? When will this child be laid to rest? Tot mom Casey Anthony`s Christmas behind bars as her parents mourn little Caylee, the tot mom takes time to order up more treats for herself.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of two-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony whose remains were found just yards from her own home. Investigators want to speak with two private investigators in the same area as the remains almost a month before the skull and bones of little Caylee were actually found.

According to one the private investigators the visit to the site on November 15th was videotaped. Raising questions about what was that secret recording.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The obvious implication is that perhaps they knew something. And then the question comes, who told them to go there? This Jim Hoover(ph) is reportedly worked for the Anthony family at that time. The question is, did the Anthonys know more about this location than they are saying? Did they know there was something up with this location a month before little Caylee`s remains were found?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your gut tells you that she`s close or -- she`s hiding?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just know that I know she`s close. I can feel her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: And tonight, Hollywood megastar John Travolta and his family travel to their luxury home in the Bahamas and tragedy strikes. Reports that Travolta`s young son suffers an unexpected death. What happened there in the Bahamas? We are waiting for autopsy results. Why did Travolta`s teen son in the prime of his life die, and why is the public clamoring for the boy`s autopsy report? Shouldn`t anything remain private?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An autopsy was performed today on the young son of superstar actor John Travolta, who died while on vacation with his family. Sixteen-year-old Jett Travolta was found unconscious Friday in the bathroom after reportedly striking his head on the bathtub after a seizure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Local police say the 16-year-old was found unconscious in the bathroom and could not be revived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a seizure and that will was it. He had a history of seizures and he fell and hit his head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jett was taken to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival. According to the family`s attorney Jett had a history seizure and was chronically ill since being diagnosed with Kawasaki syndrome when he was two years old. The body is expected to be moved in the coming hours. Funeral arraignments have not yet been finalized.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Tonight, a bombshell, tot mom Casey Anthony`s family`s private eye investigates and videos the crime scene weeks before police find Caylee`s remains. Why were they there? And did they destroy the video?

Stunning developments in the case of two-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony whose remains were found less than half a mile from her home. Authorities are working to learn more about a secret videotape taken of two private investigators at the remains site a month before the skull and bones were found. One the private investigators is a former member of the tot mom`s Casey Anthony`s defense team and was later hired by the Anthony family to investigate live sightings of the toddler.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a man with a video camera. That man is Jim Hoover and that is the man saying, I have that video from the crime scene, but there was no body. So close in time to when those remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I do know is that Hoover`s cell phone, some still photos, and the tape, according to what he told one of the media people there in Orlando had been confiscated by the FBI.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This development about the videotape is huge in this case. How would somebody know to go out there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I truly, truly love that little girl. I miss her so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are protecting Caylee, are you protecting me, or are you protecting you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`ve made an agreement I`m going to start writing letters. I`m going do it today. I`m going to write individual letters to each of you. Send them through the mail, through the jail mail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t want to wait through the mail, darling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m protecting our family, yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Yeah, I wonder how that letter writing campaign is going tonight. Bombshells in the search for little Caylee. As you know, her remains found just 15 homes away from the Anthony`s home. Is it possible that a PI working for the Anthony family actually found the remains weeks before it was reported to police? Did they video the scene? And did they destroy the video? Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO.

What can you tell me?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO: Well, here`s what happened. On November 15 Dominic Casey and James Hoover both went out that wooded area.

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Who are they? Do either of them work for the Anthony family?

PETRIMOULX: James Hoover was a security guard for the Anthony family, but he is also a private investigator. Dominic Casey, worked at that time for Jose Baez, who is Casey Anthony`s defense attorney. They went out there --

GRACE: OK, so one works for the family and one work for the defense attorney?

PETRIMOULX: Exactly.

GRACE: Go ahead.

PETRIMOULX: They went out there -- they went out there to film the area close to where the body was found. They said that they were looking for -- following up on a tip from one of Casey`s friends. At that time -- later, the remains were found there. James Hoover made a comment that he had a tape from that day that proved that the remains were not there on that date. Dominic Casey says that`s not entirely true. That they were filming out there, but that the tapes didn`t prove anything. So now there is a discrepancy between these two guys on where they were actually looking, what was actually on this film and then what happened to it, because James Hoover tells Dominic Casey that he in fact taped over it. Now we understand that that tape is in the hands of the FBI. And we`re just waiting to see, obviously, what is on that tape.

GRACE: Out to bounty hunter Leonard Padilla.

Everyone, we are taking your calls live. If this is true, this is a major development in the case. Here is my thinking. If a PI that works for the Anthony family is at the scene weeks before police ever found out little Caylee`s remains are there, what led him there? Why was he there? What was he looking for? Did he find the remains? Did they video this? And above all, why did they destroy that video?

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who allegedly viewed the video. Tell me about it, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Not allegedly, I viewed it. I saw it around the 16th or the 17th in the evening.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

PADILLA: When Hoover said I have a video, when Dominic called Hoover- - according to Hoover -- Dominic calls him the morning of the 15th. Says, get up here. We`re going to go get Caylee. He says, Hoover says, he asked Dominic. Is she is a live? Dominic says no. She`s deceased. They get up there and that he videoed Dominic down towards - down the road, opposite side of where the body was found.

Now, here`s something that`s very interesting. There`s some paver blocks down there that Hoover mentioned. The paver blocks are not part of the film. But if you look at the tent that was set up over the body, the paver blocks are less than 15 feet from where the body was found.

GRACE: What are paver blocks?

PADILLA: Paver blocks are your building cement puny blocks that you build with.

GRACE: OK. Leonard Padilla, when were you told this information?

PADILLA: The 16th , 17th .of December, about a week --

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you? When?

PADILLA: About the 16th or 17th of December. I had been there for about a week after the body was discovered.

GRACE: And when you learned this, what, if anything, did you do?

PADILLA: I immediately called Nick Savage. I didn`t want to get caught up in a little econ-type situation, where I had information and I didn`t give it to him. So I contacted him, and I says, you better talk to this guy. I also told Hoover, three times, no less than three times you better contact the authorities, this kind of stuff can cause you problems.

GRACE: OK, and for the viewers, who is Nick Savage?

PADILLA: Nick Savage is the FBI agent in charge of the investigation in Orlando.

GRACE: Everybody, we`ll all be right back.

Does this tie the tot mom directly to her little girl`s remains? Were the Anthony family`s PIs, private investigators, tipped off to go look into this area for the mains before police found them? Will it come into trial?

As we go to break, everyone, our thoughts earn prayers tonight to the family of a very dear friend, Judge Griffin Bell. Bell, the 72nd U.S. attorney general, for the entire country, died this morning, Atlanta, age 90. He was the counselor to presidents, members of Congress, governors, major corporations. He`s credited by many with restoring integrity to the Justice Department after Watergate. I can say I`ve met many, many judges and he is without a doubt the most honorable. He tempered his wisdom with humor. He spoke from his head and his heart. He was on Mercer (ph) University`s board trustees and graduate. He helped create the Mercer School of Medicine. He leaves behind his beloved wife, Nancy, son, Griffin Junior, grandchildren, including Griffin III and Katherine.

The Honorable Judge Griffin Bell. Good night, friend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have seen private investigator Jim Hoover with a video camera before. But today the focus is on a video he says he recorded of this wooded area where Caylee Marie Anthony`s remains were found about a month before they were found.

ROY KRONK, REPORTED CAYLEE`S REMAINS: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looks white. I`m not telling you it is Caylee or anything of that nature.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoover briefly showed one of our photographers a short clip of the videotaped which appeared to be authentic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have the videotape?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that they`re looking into -- they know the existence of the tape and I know that they want to look at all the evidence that`s available.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Kay in Arizona.

Hi, Kay.

CALLER: Hi. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: I am good. I had the greatest Christmas, ever. The twins loved it. They really didn`t exactly understand what was going on. They liked their wrapping paper more than everything. And completely tore apart the Advent calendar. So there you have it.

CALLER: Oh, you are so blessed. I got to-they said I had to be quick.

GRACE: OK.

CALLER: So my question is, I saw a clip and it was on your program. It was right after Caylee went missing, George got if the car, and he went down the road. The reporters followed him. And it looked like he was going to walk into that area where the baby`s body was found. And he turned around. And when the reporters ask him what he was doing, he said he was pacing out the area where to put the table and things because they were going to have a search. And if I`m right then there is something -- then they know something.

GRACE: You know, Kay, I distinctly recall that clip. Let`s go to Natisha Lance, our producer, who`s been on the case since the get-go. I recall the clip, the video that she`s talking about. But I thought it was in the area where someone claimed they saw tot mom Casey Anthony coming out of the woods.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Absolutely, Nancy, that`s correct. I remember seeing, too. This was the area that was near the airport where police had -- had all of these cell phone pings from Casey Anthony`s cell phone. But I don`t think it is this area that was at the end of their neighborhood at Suburban Drive.

GRACE: So the caller, Kay in Arizona, is correct. It`s just a different wooded area. I see where she got that idea.

Back out to the lines. Louisiana in Indiana.

Hi, Louise.

CALLER: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

CALLER: Yeah, just seen a clip where they`re going to allow the mother to view the funeral on television. So obviously they have decided that she would not be allowed to go to the memorial service itself. And do you honestly think that she will actually watch this memorial service from the jail?

GRACE: Louise, I think that if she does watch it and the jail has put a lot of ifs, ands, buts, and maybes on the possibility that she can watch it such as it has to be within a certain time period. It has got to be on a cable access that they have in the jail, blah, blah, blah.

But I guarantee you, if she does watch it, it will be so it can later be said she watched it. Because remember, Louise in Indiana, when the reports came out that these remains had been found, she did not watch. She turned around and walked to her cell. Nobody made her leave. She just left. We also understood there was a very flat affect.

Out to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and body language expert, author of "I Know What You`re Thinking."

The fact that she did not demand to see that TV, that TV report -- if this is correct -- speaks volumes to me.

DR. LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, you`re so right. It speaks huge volumes, because it`s not a typical reaction of a mother that`s lost a child. And when you look at also the tapes, the jailhouse tapes, when they were allowed to -- she was visiting her parents, you really see who she is. You really see a lot about Casey and she`s very cold and calculating.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. In addition to this bombshell, the defense may actually have video of the crime scene and then taped over it, I`m understanding that the defense still has not performed the second autopsy. What`s the hold up? They don`t need a judge`s approval. If they want a second autopsy, let`s get it on, so we can have the funeral for this child. Her remains sitting alone in a funeral home.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO: You`re absolutely right. And I have no idea. No one has said precisely what the hold up or the issue is. We have to wait for the defense to do the second autopsy that it want so badly to do before there is funeral arraignments made. Now we understand there is going to be a private funeral and then a public memorial service, but none of that can get started until the second autopsy gets finished.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Is there any security at that funeral home?

LANCE: No, Nancy, that hasn`t been indicated as far as any security. However, spokespeople at the funeral home did say that they were keeping a watch on these remains. We do know that George and Cindy Anthony did go by and sit with the remains at some point. But no indication that there`s been private security that has been asked to be at the funeral home for the remains.

GRACE: I want to go to a renowned medical examiner, Doctor Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner of Broward County, author of "When To Call The Doctor." You will remember him from the Anna Nicole Smith case. He`s the only one that made any sense during all of that.

Doctor Perper, do you recall that you guys had special security for Anna Nicole Smith`s remains as they were there at the medical examiner`s office. You took great pains to secure her remains because you never know, Doctor Perper, when some tabloid, or who knows, will try to sneak in and get photos.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: And I think that`s a different situation with this child than with Anna Nicole Smith, because with Anna Nicole Smith there was a newspaper frenzy. And there were some newspapers who basically offered money, almost, for us to release the photographs and we were --

GRACE: Doctor Perper, Doctor Perper, I hate to interrupt you because you are clearly are more of an expert in this field than I am, but I take it that you do not read the tabloids. I guess you don`t pick up "The Enquirer", "The Globe", "The Star", "The Examiner", "The Sun", when you got through the check-out line.

You know you are really giving the human race a lot of credit.

Lillian Glass you don`t think some kooky reporter wouldn`t try to -- or anybody, get in there and take a photo of the inside of the funeral home, or whatever they can get a photo of to try to sell that.

GLASS: Absolutely. Because there is a lot of money for that type of a photograph, so absolutely that is the case.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer, who`s been on the case. I want to go back to this video. What do we know about the video? Are we sure the FBI has the video that the defense took?

LANCE: We are being told that the FBI does have the video but just to correct something, Nancy. Dominic Casey worked for Jose Baez, the attorney for Casey Anthony for a period of time from about July until October. After that time they parted ways and then Casey, Dominic Casey, went to go work for the Anthony family. Now Jim Hoover apparently got in contact with the Anthony family at some point. He decided that he wanted to help out. He offered his services to be security and he became a security guard volunteering his time to the Anthonys

GRACE: So both of these people were in the employ of the Anthony family?

LANCE: Correct.

GRACE: OK, got it.

I want to go out to Anne Bremner and Christopher Amolsch, defense attorneys joining us tonight. Anne Bremner, a high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Christopher joining us from Washington, D.C.

Anne Bremner, if there wasn`t anything damming on that videotape, why tape over it?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, who knows. It`s like Rosemary Woods. But I`m still sitting here scratching my head, Nancy. Why don`t these people have loyalty to the clients to not go out and give this information over or talk about it when it could be damming to the family and to Casey Anthony? I mean, I have the question mark above my head.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PADILLA: I was introduced to Hoover back when we bailed out Casey in August. He mentioned to me that he had a film, that he had filmed when Dominic called him on the 15th. And I asked him, I says how can you have a film of the area? He says well, Dominic called me on the 15th. Told me Caylee had been found. Hoover told me that he asked him, is she alive? Says no she`s dead, but we`re going to go get her right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx, with WDBO.

Drew, if the PI for the Anthony family knew to go to this area, forget the video. OK, just forget what is on the video, forget that it was of the crime scene where her remains were found, that they videotaped over it, forget it. But what led them to that scene? Why were they there? Did the tot mom tell them to go there?

PETRIMOULX: That`s the question. And you know I`ve talked to experts that think that there has to be some kind of connection back to the jail. I know that Leonard Padilla has talked about a woman that -- the guy, the meter reader, who found it knew. So was there a connection back to the jail? That is what experts are trying to figure out right now and honestly both sides have different opinions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County Utility emergency dispatch. We found an human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Thursday, the 11th, December 11th, during the course of my duties as a county employee, I discovered and reported to my management and the proper authorities the remains of a human body located in the wooded area close to the Suburban Drive and East Orange County.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please stress to him to please not call attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that would be great just in case it is something. It may be nothing but just in case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back in August of this year I had previously reported to CrimeLine and to the sheriff`s communication`s center that I have spotted something suspicious a bag in the same area.

I noticed something that looked white. I`m not telling you it`s Caylee or anything of that nature.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to send this call up. I`m going to take a look at the bag. I also have another phone number that I need you to dial. It`s a phone number set up for anything doing with the Caylee investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, the tip line?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really rather would not being a county employee and all that. That`s why I`m talking to you all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can still do it regardless if you`re a county employee you can remain anonymous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not if they find a freaking body.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO Radio.

Everyone, we are taking your calls live.

Nikki, is it true that police have uncovered a Google search of the tot mom`s computer looking up "One Tree Hill," the TV series? The 100th episode, where a little girl, a child is kidnapped by the nanny?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That`s true. In the middle of all of those Google searches that were previously referenced where neck- breaking was researched, along with how to make weapons out of household chemicals and how to make chloroform and all of that.

Right smack in the middle of those was search for "One Tree Hill`s" 100th episode which does feature a nanny stealing a baby from a family.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Anne Bremner, Seattle, Christopher Amolsch, Washington, D.C.

Christopher, if that doesn`t give her a seat on the hell train, I don`t know what does.

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What -- well, how do we know that she`s the one who did the Google search? I mean has anyone ever confirmed that she is the one who`s actually.

GRACE: That`s all you got?

AMOLSCH: Well, she`s the only one who don`t.

GRACE: That`s you all got.

AMOLSCH: What else is there, Nancy? There -- all there is a Google search by anybody who had access to her computer, looking up all of these thing, and nobody has tied it to her. Nobody.

GRACE: OK.

AMOLSCH: Tell me how -- tell me how it matters.

GRACE: Natisha Lance, whose computer was it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It was the Anthony family home computer.

GRACE: Do we know what time the search was made?

LANCE: We don`t know what time the searches were made but we do know that Cindy Anthony has been taken out of the equation because we know that she was at work at the time. So that would leave George, Lee or Casey.

GRACE: Does Lee live in the home?

LANCE: No, he does not.

GRACE: OK. So we`ve got it down to the grandfather. The grandfather.

LANCE: And he sees that.

GRACE: . and the tot mom whose car had evidence of human remains in it.

Gee, that`s a toughie, Anne Bremner.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it`s like the saying, you know, life doesn`t imitate art. It imitates bad TV. I mean, so, you know, this is somewhat like this happened, but this happens in, like, any type of case of child abduction, someone else is involved, et cetera.

It doesn`t mean if she made the search that she`s indeed the one who did it. And neck-breaking, do we know that her neck was broken in this case or anything else?

GRACE: Anne, let me ask you something.

BREMNER: Nancy, that was searched on the computer. I mean.

GRACE: Let me -- and so was chloroform. And so was missing children.

BREMNER: Doesn`t even come into evidence.

GRACE: And so was a story line, a plot line of a TV series where a child was kidnapped by the nanny.

Yes, nothing all on its own.

BREMNER: But you know what, Nancy?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But when you put it all together, Anne, what -- what would you want, Anne? A videotape of the crime itself? Then what would you say? Someone doctored the tape?

BREMNER: Well, absolutely not. But the thing is, I`m just sitting here listening to this case and thinking, you know, out there was all these people working against these people, the family, the mother, the father -- and Casey Anthony. They`re supposed to be working for them and all of these inferences from what she has on the Internet.

GRACE: Nobody is working against the Anthony family. No one on this show is suggesting anyone in that family, the grandparents specifically, have done anything wrong.

BREMNER: No, no, no, Nancy. I`m not saying, I`m not saying that either. What I`m saying is.

GRACE: I guess you`re.

BREMNER: No, their own investigators are coming out and saying things and turning it against them.

GRACE: Just because they won`t lie?

BREMNER: No.

GRACE: What did they turn over? They didn`t turn over anything. The FBI asked for it.

BREMNER: You know, but they don`t have to get it because it`s supposed to be privileged. It`s the oldest privilege there is if, indeed, they, at any time, were involved as part of the team for the defense. You know the oldest defense.

GRACE: Anne, Anne.

BREMNER: If there ever was attorney/client.

GRACE: Under the constitution, Anne.

BREMNER: Yes.

GRACE: I have a pocket constitution right here with me in my purse.

BREMNER: I do. Well, OK.

GRACE: Maybe you should get one.

BREMNER: I have one.

GRACE: Because the constitution keeps -- protects you from having to testify against yourself. But if your defense team, for instance, conducts scientific tests that show you`re guilty you can`t keep those to yourself.

BREMNER: That`s not this. Nancy, that`s not this. They`re out there doing their own investigation. They`re entitle to do and it`s the oldest privilege in the book, older than.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: They can investigate all they want to.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That doesn`t mean that the FBI can`t get that tape.

BREMNER: Yes, it does.

GRACE: And another question, out to Michael Sapraicone, former NYPD detective. He is president of Squad Security Inc. in New York.

Michael, why take a video? I mean these guys said it`s reported in all the wires. They were out investigating the crime scene as a teen hangout. Why? Why are they out looking at a teen hangout if they don`t know the remains were there?

MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE PRESIDENT OF SQUAD SECURITY INC.: Well, you`re right, Nancy, it doesn`t make any sense why they were there.

But I`m kind of curious about one -- this meter reader finds this bag in August. What are these guys doing there in November? I mean what happens from August to November? Why doesn`t anybody go back and find that bag? Has the bag been removed?

GRACE: Well, we`ve gone over that many, many times, Michael. The reason -- police did respond immediately. The guy called. He left before police could get there. He called the next day. That was his area. Police came and apparently -- no, they didn`t expect the next day because they thought cadaver dogs had already been there.

On the third day they go out. They do a cursory search and they didn`t get to the area where the bag was and left. Then comes Hurricane Fay. The whole area is under water. Then months later, the meter read is reassigned to the area. He goes back to, just curious to see, did they come check on the bag? He sees the bag and calls again and he stays put until they get there.

That`s the scenario. But what I`m wondering about is why did they video over their video of the crime scene?

SAPRAICONE: Right. Well, it makes no sense. It maybes no sense why would they.

GRACE: It makes sense to me. It makes sense that they were likely covering up what they saw.

SAPRAICONE: Right, but I wouldn`t imagine them videoing it in the first place. There`s no real reason for them to do a video. These are two clowns, basically. I mean, to call them private investigators is ridiculous.

GRACE: You know, I don`t know about that. They were working for the Anthony family. I`m sure the Anthony family knew what they were doing but I want to know why they got -- where they got the information to go to this scene and start investigating before police ever knew about the remains?

Out to the lines, Lil in Ohio. Hi, Lil.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I just wanted to tell you that your twins are absolutely adorable.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my friend and I from -- my friends from Florida, Annie, we`ve been trying to get through to your show since the beginning.

But my question is if Lee Anthony doesn`t have going to hide, why would he need a criminal attorney?

GRACE: Excellent question and note to the New York control room, when Lil in Ohio calls again, please put her through immediately.

Why an attorney if he has nothing to hide?

First of all, Natisha Lance, what`s the status of possible charges against brother Lee Anthony?

LANCE: You know I spoke to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office today and they said that it`s still a possibility that he could get charges. He said the investigators are looking into different things. But the thing that his attorney, Lee Anthony`s attorney, is saying that there is a possibility that he could be charged with conspiring to possibly obstruction of justice, but not intentionally, by accident, because he was doing his own investigating trying to find out what happened to Caylee.

GRACE: His own investigation? His own investigation. That`s just like the tot mom. Way back when, when she was out at Fusian bar dancing up on the stage. That was her investigation.

What was Lee Anthony -- what was his investigation, Natisha?

LANCE: Well, Nancy, if you recall, he was trying to dig deep and ask all those questions of Casey when she was behind bars. He also followed up with a lot of her friends. He made a few phone calls.

I think that he was trying to get to the bottom of finding Caylee and hopefully bring her home, but unfortunately, as we all know, she wasn`t found alive.

GRACE: It`s very hard for me to believe that Lee Anthony is guilty of any wrongdoing. I don`t know if he was relying on what his sister said, however. He could have been misled.

Out to Kathy in Illinois. Hi, Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s good. What my question is, is -- does anybody think it`s a little strange that the Anthonys left to go to California to appear on "Larry King" and the next day Caylee`s body was found?

GRACE: And what would your -- what would your analysis of that be, Kathy in Illinois?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it would be kind of, like, did they know ahead of time? I mean did Casey.

GRACE: OK. You know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . like a letter.

GRACE: Kathy, I -- it is highly coincidental. I don`t think they knew anything from anything that we have learned.

What about it, Drew Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I mean it would seem to me that that would be a coincidence. If they would have any, you know, preview to that knowledge it would obviously mean that they were be involved in some way with getting information from Casey and that they, in fact, knew about the body which would be a huge development in this case and something that I just don`t see -- as very likely.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Questions remain about what caused the death of superstar actor John Travolta`s 16-year-old son who was pronounced dead after being found unconscious in the bathroom of the family`s vacation home.

Jett Travolta was last seen heading into the bathroom Thursday night according to police officials in the Bahamas and his body was found Friday morning.

An autopsy was done today in an attempt to determine cause of death. But the results of the testing has not been made public.

The Travolta family had previously said that Jett was diagnosed with Kawasaki syndrome at the age of 2 and the attorney for the family says the boy had a history of seizures.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There are breaking reports right now out of "Access Hollywood" claiming that the child`s body is to be cremated there in the Bahamas.

Out to Mark Dagostino, senior writer with "People" magazine.

Welcome, Mark. What happened?

MARK DAGOSTINO, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Yes, you know there were all kinds of mixed reports here about what was happening with the body, with the cause of death was. Finally, we`re getting some answers.

We have been told now that it was a seizure disorder that was the cause of death. And that -- I think clears up a lot of the mystery here. The idea that he was somehow -- you know, that he -- that he injured his skull and was left for some time.

All of the things that have been floating around the last couple of days, I think they`re kind of being put to bed finally.

GRACE: To Dr. Jennifer Shu, pediatrician and editor of "Baby and Child Health."

Dr. Shu, how does a seizure cause death?

DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN, EDITOR OF "BABY AND CHILD HEALTH": Well, that`s the thing, Nancy, is that in and of itself, seizures don`t typically cause sudden death. You can see ongoing seizures, something called status epileptic is where a seizure lasts several minutes and that can deprive the brain of oxygen causing brain damage and eventual death.

You can also aspirate some liquids into the lungs, inhale it and that can cause pneumonia or problems breathing. But more frequently with a sudden death you expect to see some type of injury such as a fall that can cause bleeding in the brain or maybe if you`re driving, there could be a seizure that results in a car crash, or drowning is a very common one in children.

There`s also an entity called sudden unexplained death which might be -- which is what we`re seeing here. And in a small percentage of seizure deaths, we just don`t know what caused the death.

It`s speculated that it might be that the heart stops or that there is just not enough oxygen to the body that we just don`t know.

GRACE: So, Dr. Shu, you`re saying that seizures, in and of themselves, can cause death?

SHU: It can, yes, but usually we don`t see the sudden death except for how I just explained.

GRACE: So it is rare for a seizure alone to cause death?

SHU: Correct. It is rare for seizure.

GRACE: OK.

To Ken Baker with E! News, the executive news editor.

Ken, what about the -- story that the child hit his head due to a seizure?

KEN BAKER, E! EXECUTIVE NEWS EDITOR: Well, to the -- to the previous point before I get on that, I want to say that E! News has confirmed that Jett Travolta was cremated this afternoon.

We confirmed that with the mortuary in the Bahamas and he`s expected to be transported or at least his remains will be transported back to Central Florida, to their home in Ocala where he is expected to be buried later this week.

Now, as far as the -- the questions that remain, now, Mark Dagostino, said that there were a lot of answers today, which is true, but there`s also a lot of questions that the curious amongst us still are wondering if there`s answers to.

Number one, you mentioned the police report indicated that he had fallen in the bathroom and possibly struck his head. The autopsy report today, at least preliminarily, says that there is no indication of any trauma to the head whatsoever.

Now the other question is, there seems to be some debate over how long Jett, who had -- who had apparently special needs, who had a history of seizures, how long he was left unattended?

Now, of course, it is a major tragedy. This could have been an accident that could not have been prevented but at the same time you have to wonder, was he alone for more than 10 hours as the police report indicated? Or was he alone for just a couple of hours?

This is a really sad tragedy and, of course, nothing that we can get answers to is going to bring Jett back. It remains a horrible tragedy and my condolences go out to the family but at the same time for the rest of us who have kids who care for -- kids with special needs even, this is an important question to know, what went wrong?

Was he getting the medication he needed at the time? We were told by representatives for John Travolta.

GRACE: Can I ask you something, Ken Baker? No offense, but unless you`re suggesting wrongdoing on the part of the John Travolta family, why do you think you deserve to know the inner workings of this child`s illness, unless you are pointing a finger at John Travolta tonight.

Why is it our business? It`s their (INAUDIBLE) business. And why is the public clamoring for this child`s autopsy report? Unless there is criminal wrongdoing, it`s nobody`s business.

BAKER: Well, I have to say that I spoke to a source down the Bahamas just this afternoon and they said that, absolutely, there is no foul play. There is no, quote/unquote, "suspicious death" or circumstances around this.

Let`s make that clear.

Now, of course, you know that anytime there`s a high-profile celebrity and anyone in their family goes through a tragedy there`s fascination. Now whether or not we should care, we do as a country, as a culture. We are interested in these things.

GRACE: Well, caring, caring is not what I said. Of course, people care for the suffering of others. But to suggest that we deserve answers, it`s none of our business unless there`s a criminal investigation.

But while I`ve got you, Ken Baker with E! -- executive news editor with E!, I understand that they say the child had Kawasaki syndrome and it`s very, very rare. Many people say the child had autism.

Where does the whole scientology belief fall? I mean, were these seizures a result of either autism or Kawasaki syndrome? And we know they`re Scientologists. Do Scientologists not recognize autism as a legitimate illness, as a legitimate problem?

BAKER: Well, I`m not an expert on scientology but the expert that I spoke to have said that, well, first of all, there`s no evidence whatsoever that Jett Travolta had autism. There`s been a lot of speculation but the Travoltas have insisted that he has not.

All they have said is that he has suffered from seizures in the past.

GRACE: OK.

BAKER: . and that he did have Kawasaki syndrome. However, just let me finish. Kawasaki syndrome, there is no evidence to think that this seizure, this fatal seizure, was somehow related to Kawasaki syndrome which he had when he was 2 years old.

GRACE: OK. What about it, Mark Dagostino?

DAGOSTINO: The -- fact is, that this family was not cutting him off from any kind of medical care. I think that`s one thing the people are confused about here.

You know, the -- people confuse sometimes, I think, scientology with being a Christian scientist who won`t go to a doctor and won`t get a vaccine, and that is not the case here at all.

The fact is, if you`re a Scientologist you go to the doctor, you seek medical treatment, you would take prescriptions, and from what we understand he was receiving medical care from doctors not only in the United States, but from around the world.

And for a significant amount of time he was on an anti-seizure medication that was losing its effectiveness and causing some other side effects in his body.

GRACE: OK.

DAGOSTINO: So they had to take him off of it.

GRACE: Dr. Shu, is this making medical sense to you that Kawasaki syndrome would cause these seizures?

SHU: Well, Kawasaki syndrome basically affects kids 2 to 5 years old, high fever, inflammation of the arteries, usually the arteries that supply the heart. So you could see a heart attack, but typically not seizures.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just -- it was a seizure. And that was it. Had a history of seizures, so that was it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, Broward County.

Dr. Perper, isn`t it true that unless there`s criminal wrongdoing accused autopsy reports usually remain private?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Not in the state of Florida. In the state of Florida they are public record unless the case is under investigation.

GRACE: So unless there is criminal wrongdoing accused or being investigated they do remain private?

PERPER: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK.

PERPER: Until the investigation is completed and then it becomes public record.

GRACE: And what if there is -- what if there is no investigation?

PERPER: Then it`s a public record. We -- we try not to advertise that or not to publicize that, but we don`t have any legal standing to oppose the release of a public record.

GRACE: OK. Out to the lines, Linda in Florida, quickly, Linda, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well I suffered for 14 years from seizures and I`d like to know if one medication didn`t work, why did they not continue to put him on other medications?

GRACE: Ken Baker, what do you know?

BAKER: Well, what we know is that he was on medication and that the parents in consultation with doctors deemed that it wasn`t being effective and maybe even had side effects.

There`s no sign that that was a bad decision at all. It happens with a lot of people who have seizures and have that medications. Sometimes it just doesn`t work and doctors do recommend that they`re better off without it.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop now and remember, Army Sergeant First Class Steven Chevalier35, Flint, Michigan, killed Iraq. On a third tour, awarded a Bronze Star for leadership days before he died. As well as many other awards including the Purple Heart.

Described as a born leader with a soft side, loved time with his daughters, even doing their hair. Leaves behind mother Dorothy, brother Brian and grieving wife Geneva and daughters Ashley and Alicia.

Steven Chevalier, American hero.

Thanks to all our guests but especially to you for being with us, and tonight a special good night from Atlanta friends of the show, Chris and Doug.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night.

END


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NANCY GRACE

NANCY GRACE for January 6, 2009

Aired January 6, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl Caylee.
Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony`s home, confirmed those of Caylee. Manner of death? Homicide.

The little girl`s remains completely skeletonized making cause of death nearly impossible to determine. This, after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, covered in light-colored hair, hair still intact due to thick duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.

Bombshell tonight, the shocking possibility, images of little Caylee`s remains may be sold, rears its ugly head. A judge expected to hear motions banning such a sale, but can he do it? Can it be stopped outside courthouse walls?

And tonight, reports surface of renowned psychic ID`d the crime scene before police even discovered Caylee`s remains and it`s all actually caught on video.

And tonight the tot mom`s defense team tries to duck the tough questions in a sworn deposition under oath behind bars.

Also tonight, tot mom gets a special OK to view little Caylee`s funeral on TV, but will it really happen? Is the jailhouse now putting restrictions on that TV viewing?

This, as Caylee`s remains reportedly sit all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home.

When will this little child be laid to rest?

Tot mom Casey Anthony`s Christmas behind bars as her parents mourn little Caylee. The tot mom takes time to order up more treats for herself. Treats like, chocolate, expensive bottled water, a sketch pad for drawing, and a transistor radio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County prosecutors are reportedly refusing to turn over three disks to the Casey Anthony defense team showing Caylees remains. According to reports, the disks include x-rays and photos of her body and were expected to be turned over to the defense.

However, reports say the state has now filed a new motion expressing concerns that the images will be reproduced and sold if they are given to the defense. Prosecutors want the judge to play special restrictions on images of the remains before they are given to Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sick.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s so sick.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s close.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Psychic Gale St. John who assisted in the search for Caylee says she was at the remains` site back in August, and took video of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, there`s no logic, yes. You know what, you know how easy -- if you have a good dog. You didn`t have people who knew what they were doing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meanwhile a showdown in court occurred today, where a judge reprimanded tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team for personal attacks against the lawyers for Zenaida Gonzalez who has filed a defamation lawsuit against the tot mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Hollywood mega star John Travolta and his family travel to their luxury home in the Bahamas when tragedy strikes. Travolta`s young son suffers an unexpected death. The body already cremated. The family back in the U.S.

Tonight, reports the Travoltas will be questioned by authorities about their son`s death. Why?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A family of four, suddenly three. The question is, why? The death certificate lists seizure as cause of death but we may never know all the details.

JOHN TRAVOLTA, ACTOR: That one is rarely a thing to deal with but it`s called Kawasaki syndrome. It`s very easily handled, difficult to identify. And we did and it was handled within 48 hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hollywood couple John Travolta and wife Kelly Preston will reportedly be interviewed as part of the investigation into the death of their son Jett, who died Friday.

According to reports, Travolta and Preston are expected to be questioned about their son`s medication as part of routine inquiries into his death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lawyer said Jett was on anti-seizure medication for years. It reduced the seizures initially but eventually they returned. It`s unclear if any medicine could have prevented the seizure that killed him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family returned to their Florida home late last night after receiving after receiving an urn containing the ashes of 16-year-old Jett.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The funeral director in the Bahamas says there was no sign of head trauma. But Travolta`s lawyer said Jett fell to the bathroom floor striking his head on the bathtub.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lawyer said the nanny found Jett and that he may have still been alive when his father started CPR. Jett was pronounced dead at the hospital but the lawyer told "Us" magazine he believes John Travolta had a chance to say good-bye that Jett may have died in his dad`s arms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Tonight a stunning bombshell. Are individuals planning to sell images of little Caylee`s remains? Can it be stopped?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to reports, prosecutors are trying to prevent disks containing x-rays and photos of Caylee`s remains for being released to the public. The state was supposed to turn over documents pertaining to the remains over to the defense this week but are withholding at least three disks of information reportedly containing x-rays and photos of the skull and bones of the toddler.

An Orlando station is reporting that the Orange County district attorney`s office has filed a new motion asking the judge to place special restrictions on the images before they are turned over, including a restriction on who Baez can show the images to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Worried all the people around, you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A psychic who had searched for Caylee claims she was at the remains site back in August. And the cadaver dog that was with her showed heavy interest in the area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A school is here. (INAUDIBLE) down this search.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the senses.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was searched by cadaver dog.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can only go so far as the water, you know what I mean? It`s very close.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also today a judge is soon expected to rule on whether tot mom Casey Anthony will be deposed Monday in the defamation lawsuit filed against her by Zenaida Gonzalez.

The Anthony defense team is seeking to delay the deposition until after the tot mom`s criminal trial where she could be facing the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx standing by at funeral home where little Caylee`s remains are being warehoused. He is joining us from WDBO.

Drew, first of all, what do you know about the possibility that individuals are planning to sell, to reproduce and sell images of little Caylee`s remains?

I brought this up last night and everybody poo-pooed it and now it`s an issue.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Right, and that`s what the state attorney`s office wants to prevent. They filed a motion today that will limit who the Baez law firm can show these released photos to and also will limit them from reproducing them.

Their fear that they will reproduce them and sell them for a profit. If you remember earlier in this case, some video and pictures of Caylee were sold for a profit. And now they`re worried that that could happen again so they basically want to prevent that.

GRACE: OK, Drew, you`re referring to a time earlier in the case, as you generically referred to it, be specific. What do you mean? Earlier in the case, photos were sold. Money was made. What happened?

PETRIMOULX: It`s kind of shaky on who actually received the money. There had been reports that the Baez -- the Baez defense team did receive six-figure payments for videos and pictures that were sold to a national TV network, and then shown on TV.

They can`t -- we haven`t been able to prove that this money was received or paid for but we do know that the images and video were seen on national TV.

GRACE: And what video and photos were they specifically, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: They were of Caylee. I -- think you`ve seen photos of her playing in the pool around the house, playing with the grandparents. It was those photos and video that were released to the media that you have to think has got the state attorney`s office thinking that if they released these -- three CDs with pictures of that crime scene they`re afraid that something similar to what happened earlier in the case, where they were sold for a profit, could happen again. And they want to file this motion to block the defense team from selling these pictures.

GRACE: You know, Drew, I brought up last night the question as to whether there was any special security at that funeral home. And I -- refer back to the Anna Nicole Smith case where they even had the windows boarded up with some type of covering so tabloids -- or, anybody, reporter, anybody, not just the tabloids, couldn`t get a long lens and get a shot in there of the room, the box, who knows what.

How are her remains being stored, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: They`re being stored, we understand, reportedly, right behind me. And we talked to a forensic pathologist who said they would be stored in a cardboard box and then they kept cold and refrigerated to prevent further decay.

I don`t know if that`s even possible with the remains -- the condition of the remains ion this case, but we understand that they`re right behind us reportedly and that they`re being kept in some kind of cooler.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, who`s been on the case from the very beginning-- Natisha, there`s not going to be any further degeneration. The remains were already completely skeletonized.

So what`s the hold up? Why are Caylee`s remains reportedly sitting alone in a cardboard box? Why not a funeral? What the hay`s going on?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the hold up, Nancy, is the second autopsy that`s supposed to be performed by the defense team. Now the Anthonys wanted to wait until after the second autopsy before they have their public memorial as well as their funeral -- their private funeral for Caylee.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Maybe I need to rephrase it for you, Natisha.

LANCE: Mm-hmm.

GRACE: We all know that they`re waiting for a second autopsy. What`s the hold up with the second autopsy? Why don`t they do an autopsy?

LANCE: Well, Jose Baez had said previously that the holidays were one thing that were preventing them from moving forward quickly -- or as quickly as possible.

GRACE: Yes, well, those are over.

LANCE: Well, that`s a good point, Nancy. But as of this point, no second autopsy has been done yet and we`re still waiting to find out when it will happen.

GRACE: Dr. Saunders is with me, Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, joining us out of New York. You don`t have a problem with that?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy.

GRACE: You`re just letting remains sit in a cardboard box. I mean, really, that`s your child. I would say to hell with the second autopsy. Even if I can`t go to the funeral, I want her buried.

SAUNDERS: Well, that`s because you`re a normal mother. And we don`t have too much evidence that Casey Anthony is. This is a callous, really callous detached abomination to treat the baby`s memory like this.

GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall, forensic pathologist joining me out of Denver, Colorado right now.

Dr. Arnall, the body`s skeletonized. What are they going to get out of a second autopsy? And how difficult is that?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, they`re going to hire their own forensic anthropologist. And that forensic anthropologist is going to examine all the marks on those bones to determine whether there might be any evidence of pre-morbid injuries.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What street?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on, make it some kind of.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, we got to pull over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dogs are getting sick back here. Keep the.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not one stuff under, so I can pull here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay here.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wouldn`t be this close to home, would she?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t write the book on (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she`s mentally unstable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This area was searched by.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re actually seeing video of the search by a renowned psychic, the host of "The Body Hunter," Gale St. John, of their search and they actually came to the location unbeknownst to them where Caylee`s remains were and suddenly, as you can see on this video taken before the remains were found by police, got ways of nausea, disturbed feelings, got out of the car.

Joining me right now, exclusively, Gale St. John, she was at the crime scene months before the remains were found.

Miss St. John, thank you for being with us. What did you experience when you got to that location?

GALE ST. JOHN, CLAIMS SHE WAS DRAWN TO CRIME SCENE BEFORE TOT BODY FOUND: Well, it`s pretty phenomenal and I`ve had it happen before in the case when there`s bodies. It was, like, someone punched you in the stomach. It knocks the air right out of you. You feel like you can`t breathe and -- it`s almost an utter panic feeling.

GRACE: And you actually were videoing it, why?

ST. JOHN: Whenever we do the blind drive on a case that is what generally something that we video for our own use.

GRACE: Your own use for what?

ST. JOHN: So we can look back at it and -- talk about what we`ve experienced during the blind drive. Did we feel that we were on the location or we`re not feeling something on the blind drive?

GRACE: Now we`re seeing on the video you took -- you actually get out of the car with a dog and you go searching?

ST. JOHN: Yes. One of our team members got out. I went down a little bit further to see if the feeling got stronger or weaker.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at this video. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it, Travis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sick.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, it`s close.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, there`s no logic, yes.

You know what, you know how easy if you didn`t have good dogs, didn`t have people who knew what they were doing.

What street, Suburban. Here comes a car. This is -- go up further here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Try up further. Let me shut my door.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it be evidence, drive.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something`s not right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something is not right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, with me tonight exclusively, Gale St. John, renowned psychic and host of "The Body Hunter."

Again, explain to me exactly what you experienced when you got to the location where Caylee`s remains were later found.

ST. JOHN: Well, when we turned onto Hope Spring onto Suburban I immediately began to feel that sinking, can`t breathe feeling, as if I got punched in the stomach, nauseated and just panicky.

You feel like you can`t breathe. And obviously behind me at the same time was Travis going through some of the same sensations, which he`s one of our apprentices. And the dogs were reacting.

GRACE: And you actually got -- somebody in the car actually got nauseous when you got to the location?

ST. JOHN: Yes. Yes. And that`s the feeling that goes with it when you, when you come upon a body, that`s frequent.

GRACE: Did you alert police?

ST. JOHN: Did I alert police at that moment, no, I did not alert.

GRACE: No, at some juncture, did you tell police that you had come to this location and felt very strongly about it?

ST. JOHN: No, we had not been taken seriously when we were there.

GRACE: OK.

To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, former D.C. cop. Mike, why is it that police -- I know as a former prosecutor, I did not take psychic seriously. Only for one reason, not necessarily did I discounted them, but because I knew I would likely not get the evidence into trial, and if I did get it in before the jury, then it would be mocked by the other side. And it could then taint my legitimate evidence. And it could hurt the case.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes.

GRACE: More than it helped the case. Whether I personally believed in it or not, I had to do what`s best for the case. But why do police typically discount psychics? I mean this was months before the body was found.

BROOKS: Because, Nancy, most -- most investigators, most trained investigators who have -- who had information -- usually turns out to be nothing.

I`m sorry, I don`t believe in the whole psychic, using psychics in a case. I`ve heard, you know, they give information. Most of the information doesn`t pan out and my other question is, how many other of these "feelings" did she have around this area during the time that she was out there searching?

I mean I see the dog. It doesn`t look like the dog was on the track. It looks like the dog is looking back at the person taking the video. And you hear on the video, turn on the air-conditioning because the dog`s getting sick. So you know sick dog, hitting on something? I`m not buying it, sorry.

GRACE: OK. So you don`t buy it.

BROOKS: No.

GRACE: But they felt strongly enough to get out of car.

BROOKS: Then they should have called the police.

GRACE: And take the dogs out and actually start searching.

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Susan in Georgia. Hi, Susan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How are you?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, earlier you mentioned that Caylee, there may be some restriction on her television watching? What kind of precipitated that? Or you know what.

GRACE: No, it`s actually on a possible restriction on whether she may view the funeral if it is televised.

Natisha Lance, have there been updates in that?

LANCE: There have been some updates, Nancy. Actually if Casey is able to watch this on television, on local TV, she`d have to do it during her hour of free time. Now it`s a possibility that she`ll be able to watch it. But what we`ve also learned is that Casey has a -- radio in her cell where she can listen to 24 hours a day. It`s something that she was able to purchase from the commissary for about $21.

It -- has a clear face on it so that there`s nothing that can be concealed in it. So those are some of the possibilities right now. Nothing in terms of any type of special permission that would need to be granted but these are things that the jail would take into consideration at that time when it occurs.

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, the state has actually -- is actually concerned enough that images of Caylee`s remains are going to be reproduced and sold.

What do you know about that? Why is the state so concerned? And is the judge hearing a motion on it?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: A judge will be hearing a motion on it. This was just filed in the last hours, reportedly. They basically said, look, we have three disks that are full of pictures of Caylee`s remains, of x-rays, of the autopsy. And we`re ready to turn them over, as you requested.

But we have some serious reservations about this, because obviously somebody made a significant amount of money on live photos of Casey and live video. We don`t want them do the same thing now that she`s deceased and it`s always a possibility so we want to make sure that you, the courts, put some restrictions on Jose Baez so that he doesn`t go out and do these things.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live.

Standing by is Drew Petrimoulx there at that funeral home, reporting that there is no additional security whatsoever guarding Caylee`s remains.

Very quickly, let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police searching tonight for 2-year-old Edwin Rosario missing since last Friday, (INAUDIBLE) U.S. Virgin Islands. Possibly in the accompany of an adult female, in need of medical attention.

If you have info, please contact police at 340-712-6026.

Also, police searching for 5-year-old Javante Griffin, 1-year-old Israel Griffin. Both missing since Friday. Police believe they were taken from paternal grandfather`s home in Missouri City by 29-year-old La Quanda Williams.

Anyone with information, please contact Missouri police, 281-403-9700.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this is the school they said they searched at?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said they searched in the area by the school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, show us what you were going to say.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the school, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the elementary school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But this whole area has been searched.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Liars. Liars. Yes, they searched it, they missed something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying to think of a 4-year-old girl is in all of this brush, something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, trial lawyer out of Atlanta, Doug Burns, veteran trial lawyer out of New York.

Ray Giudice, it`s pretty bad when a judge has to warn the defense not to sell images of the dead victim.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, Nancy the discovery is not for commercial use, I agree with you. Baez should get in there with the judge and the D.A., do a consent agreement that there is no secondary use of this. It`s not uncommon in cases where there are sexually explicit images. It should be done.

GRACE: Doug.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I was just going to say in child pornography cases, basically, you have to go in as a defense lawyer and sit there with the agents, with law enforcement, and go over the materials. So it`s totally reasonable to limit it by either making them come in and look at it with law enforcement, or else make sure they don`t disseminate it.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Jon Morgan, attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez. He`ll be taking your calls live when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had a call to the sheriff`s office regarding a discovery that was made by an Orange County meter employee. What gone into the woods, a bag was found there and skeletal remains were found at the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A skull of, I believe, is human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ooh.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: St. John claimed she was there the same day as meter reader Roy Kronk when he initially called police August 11th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that goes from like there, where the start of the road is down at the school and between it on either side there is a swamp and if you`re heading back out towards the main road on the left-hand side in an area, I noticed something that looked white and there was -- I don`t know what it is, I`m not telling you it`s Caylee or anything of that nature.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And since the cadaver dog that was with her showed a heavy interest in the alleged wooded area where Caylee`s remains were later discovered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am immediately cold here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wouldn`t this close to home, would she?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live.

Right now to John Morgan the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez. He planned to depose tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars and ask her some tough questions. So far the defense has ducked that deposition.

Why?

JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, PLANNING TO DEPOSE CASEY ANTHONY: Well, they want to have their cake and eat it, too. On one hand, Casey has filed a countersuit, believe it or not, against Zenaida.

GRACE: For what?

MORGAN: Well, for mental anguish. They don`t even lay out damages but as Keith (INAUDIBLE), who probably -- is my partner, probably the number one defamation attorney in -- Florida, said today, look, you can`t, you can`t have a sword, the defamation lawsuit, and then pull out a shield and say, and by the way, you can`t depose me.

You cannot have your cake and eat it, too.

GRACE: In other words, you can`t depose me but I`m going to sue you.

MORGAN: Exactly.

GRACE: Gotcha.

MORGAN: And -- you know, I`m going to pull out a sword and I`m still saying there`s a Zenaida Gonzalez.

GRACE: I got it. I got the whole sword and shield thing.

John, what`s likelihood you`re going to get to depose her before her criminal trial?

MORGAN: I think it`s likely the judge, the judge.

GRACE: She`s just going to take the Fifth Amendment.

MORGAN: She may but there are other questions that we can ask. I don`t know how she`s going to take the Fifth Amendment and follow a lawsuit. I mean she`s going to have to follow a lawsuit and answer questions or not.

But more importantly, Nancy, what we look forward to is for Zenaida Gonzalez to get to sit there across from her to confront her and to say, is this the Zenaida Gonzalez you`re talking about? And if not, please describe it.

Zenaida Gonzalez is the real victim along with the little girl and Zenaida Gonzalez needs closure and she`s looking forward to that day on Monday.

GRACE: You know she`s really been dragged through the mud.

Let`s unleash the other lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. Raymond Giudice, Doug Burns.

Out to the lines, Heidi in Indiana. Hi, Heidi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I want you to know how much I admire you and everything that you do for justice. Thank you.

GRACE: You know what, I do not deserve that but thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You do.

GRACE: . for the compliment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question relate to the November video of the crime scene by the P.I.`s. I`ve heard comments made on why they were videotaping the scene.

Is it possible they could have planned to maybe move the body in the future? Leonard Padilla had said that the comment by the P.I. was, we are going to go get Caylee.

GRACE: You know, let`s throw that to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first put up the bond for the tot mom then came off of the bond, then began a long search for the remains of little Caylee.

What about it, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE: Hoover told me that when Dominic called him, he says we`re going to go get Caylee. Hoover asked him, is she alive? And Dominic says no, she`s dead.

I don`t know anymore than -- what they said at that point. But let me add something here, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: Kronk was out there on September the 2nd or the 3rd.

GRACE: Oh are you back to the meter reader as part of the conspiracy?

PADILLA: No. Listen to this.

GRACE: It doesn`t even make sense.

PADILLA: Listen, there was also three meter readers out there.

GRACE: It`s part of a.

PADILLA: . the same day that St. John was out there.

GRACE: If you`re part of some evil conspiracy.

PADILLA: No, it`s not evil.

GRACE: . why do you call police?

PADILLA: It`s not evil, it`s just fact.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: There were three meter readers out there, three of them.

GRACE: What`s your theory? How is Kronk somehow part of a conspiracy? Go ahead and tell me.

PADILLA: Well, we know that the defense is the one that`s benefiting by the confusion right now as to the finding of the body and how it was found.

How did somebody get word to Kronk to get out there? I think he was the end of a daisy chain that started with Casey and two or three people in the middle there. And -- I mean he says he saw something white out there.

GRACE: How would a meter reader be privy of information from the tot mom behind bars?

PADILLA: His supervisor is a neighbor of the Anthony`s.

GRACE: Listen, in my experience, limited as it is, conspiracies do not hold up.

Do you agree, Giudice and Burns? First to you, Burns? Somebody cracks. I mean that`s quite a daisy chain from the jail. Somebody is going to blurt out, we got this from the tot mom.

BURNS: No, I agree with you, even though I`m supposed to be the defense lawyer, Nancy, but in all seriousness, I just don`t see all of these wild theories about this meter reader. And furthermore, I don`t think that it impacts a heck of a lot on the case.

GRACE: Well, I agree with you partially.

Ray Giudice, I think that it can impact the case because his discovery is going -- will be attacked by the defense at trial.

GIUDICE: Yes. Yes.

GRACE: How?

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, let me just say I agree with you and Doug. The prosecution needs to stay on their, their mantra. The Body Farm, Quantico. The Florida Bureau of Investigation. Real science.

Let the defense raise these red herrings.

BURNS: Right.

GIUDICE: The prosecution should stay on. This is a homicide case, not some kooky conspiracy obstruction case.

GRACE: I want to go back to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified pathologist, joining me out of Denver.

Dr. Arnall, how are skeletonized remains typically stored at a funeral home?

ARNALL: We when we receive them, we would receive them in just a typical bank box. They put them in a bank box so then.

GRACE: A bank box which is a what?

ARNALL: Just standard box that`s probably at one-foot by one foot by one foot.

GRACE: Cardboard, metal, what?

ARNALL: Just a cardboard box. Just a light cardboard box with handles and we would leave it in our cooler.

GRACE: And Dr. Arnall, how long do remains typically sit there until they are claimed and a funeral is held?

ARNALL: If -- if the remains aren`t identified they may remain in a cooler for.

GRACE: If they`re identified?

ARNALL: If they`re identified then the family would go ahead and proceed with the funeral. In this case the family thinks they may draw an advantage from a second examination so I -- can understand why they might wait for a second forensic examination.

GRACE: OK, hold on.

Drew Petrimoulx, when did police discover the remains? What day?

PETRIMOULX: Would the -- did the meter reader discover? We were talking about December 11th.

GRACE: No, police, police. December 11th is when police went out and found the remains.

OK, according to my estimation, let me just check this to be sure. Today is January 6th. We`ve got almost a month here.

What`s the hold up, Drew Petrimoulx? These remains, Caylee`s remains, all that`s left of this little girl sitting in a cardboard box? Drew?

PETRIMOULX: That`s exactly right. And the -- hold up, Nancy, is that there has to be another examination of those remains by the defense experts, Dr. Henry Lee, and some of the experts that they have hired on the team.

GRACE: I know that, but what are they waiting on?

PETRIMOULX: You have to ask the defense team that and, Nancy, honestly, they`re not answering questions right now. So we don`t know. It is a good question. What has taken so long to examine these remains. It`s a question that we haven`t been able to answer.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Dawn in Kentucky. Hi, Dawn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, the defense is sticking to the story that Zanny the nanny did it.

Why wouldn`t the defense immediately get a sketch artist in and show us a picture of this Zanny the nanny?

GRACE: What about it, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: There is no Zanny the nanny, period. Plain and simple. It was just a figment of her imagination. And you know we`ve -- heard a lot of stories come out of her mouth, Nancy.

GRACE: And how would it have hurt the case, Ray Giudice, if the defense had put out that sketch?

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, number one, I think it might even be borderline obstruction of justice. The defense actually knew no such person existed. Secondly, it`s going to lead to just countless, effortless tips, arresting and pulling over people like this poor lady who`s filing suit that fit that description.

GRACE: Doug Burns?

BURNS: Man, it`s a total red herring and the fact of the matter is, is that back to my earlier point, while everybody wants to get all exercised about the meter reader and the finding of the body, the real prosecutorial angle, of course, is all of the false statements and consciousness of guilt that you`ve been talking about very correctly for months.

GRACE: Well, you`re seeing a shot of tot mom behind bars who took the time to order up treats for herself, chocolates, expensive bottled water. She`s tuning in through a transistor radio. There you see those shots right now.

Everyone, as we go to break, I want to thank, personally, the wonderful doctors and nurses at Coliseum Northside Hospital in Macon, taking care of my mom, Elizabeth, surgery, today.

Mother, please, get well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Travolta and his wife, Kelly Preston, have returned to Florida with the remains of their 16-year-old son.

Jett Travolta was found unconscious late Friday morning at the couple`s vacation home in Grand Bahamas.

The teen, who`d been chronically ill for the last several years, reportedly collapsed in a bathroom and was found by a caretaker.

Authorities in the Bahamas performed an autopsy yesterday. An undertaker telling the Associated Press seizure was listed as the cause of death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly." Tom, why are the Travoltas going to be questioned?

TOM O`NEIL, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: Well, Nancy, now that we have a cause of death, seizure, the question is, was he being properly treated for this? There are medications for epilepsy. Many, of course. We know that he was being given a drug for.

GRACE: But why would you say epilepsy? There`s no indication he was epileptic.

O`NEIL: Seizures are tied to epilepsy and if this -- would also had.

GRACE: So?

O`NEIL: Well you have to ask the medical people if I`m using the right terminology or not, but he had -- but the point is, was he being given the proper medication and proper treatment procedures?

GRACE: Ken Baker, joining us with -- from E. He is their executive news editor.

Ken, you can add to that?

KEN BAKER, E! EXECUTIVE NEWS EDITOR: Yes, well, first of all, we don`t know that the Travoltas are going to be questioned in this investigation. That report is unconfirmed. We just spoke to a representative for the Travoltas who said they had no comment. That police aren`t commenting or confirming that report.

It came from a British tabloid. So from here out, at least E! News, we`re not reporting that they`re being questioned.

Now are there questions that are arising out of this tragedy? Yes. A lot of people are wondering in a non-criminal way, and away from the police investigation, why he had a seizure and why he wasn`t under medication at the time, and if that could have prevented him from his fall, and -- ultimately dying from the seizure.

So -- but that`s a separate thing from them being asked to come in and be questioned by the police. We don`t know if that`s t true or not.

GRACE: To Dr. Keri Peterson, he`s in internal medicine at Lenox Hill Hospital. Doctor, thank you for joining us.

DR. KERI PETERSON, INTERNAL MEDICINE, LENOX HILL HOSPITAL: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Dr. Kerry, when there is no investigation going on, are family members -- and you`re trying to determine cause of death. Are family members typically questioned?

PETERSON: They can be, of course, if they were witnesses to any events before or after the death. They can provide very useful information. So they may be able to help investigators determine the cause of death.

GRACE: Dr. Peterson, if the body was not autopsied until -- substantially until after the death.

PETERSON: Mm-hmm.

GRACE: . would bruises still show up on the body?

PETERSON: It`s possible. Well, this is difficult to talk about, but when a person expires, the skin color does change. It can become more purple. So it can mask the bruises. But as we know bruises can be many shades of purple and they can show through the skin discoloration.

GRACE: But, Dr. Peterson, even if the skin has become discolored with passing time, postmortem, wouldn`t a -- an autopsy, which goes under the skin, show the hemorrhage, in other words the bruise?

PETERSON: That is absolutely correct. It certainly will. And in an autopsy they`ll look at it under the microscope and they certainly can see blood deposited in the tissue, which is different know that the discoloration of the skin that occurs postmortem.

GRACE: So these allegations that too much time elapsed between the death and the autopsy for bruises to show up is completely bunk. An autopsy will find hemorrhages, bruises in lay terms.

PETERSON: That`s correct.

GRACE: Regards of the discoloration of the body.

PETERSON: That`s correct.

GRACE: That`s absolutely not true.

PETERSON: You`re absolutely right. It can show bruises on the body despite the color of the skin through examination under the microscope.

GRACE: And Doctor, in your experience, do individuals die from a seizure?

PETERSON: It`s very possible that a person can die from a seizure. Typically it can occur when the seizure is very prolonged. If a seizure is longer than 30 minutes and there`s a high risk of death, it`s a life- threatening situation, that`s called status epilepticus.

Seizures in of themselves.

GRACE: Are you saying it was epilepsy or is that just the medical term for the type of seizure?

PETERSON: Epilepsy means that you have had recurrent seizures over time. So it is a syndrome of recurrent seizures and I presume that Jett was suffering from epilepsy because he was on medication. Typically.

GRACE: For seizures?

PETERSON: That`s correct. Depakote is typically used for seizure disorder or epilepsy and it typically medication is only given if you have recurrent seizures.

GRACE: Back out to Ken Baker with E.

Ken, you seem to want very much to find out the nature and cause of death. But again, I ask you, if there is no criminal wrongdoing alleged, what business is it of E!`s or anybody`s. I`m not picking on you. You just happen to be there asking this question.

If there`s not an investigation, why do we have to know the intimate details of this death?

BAKER: Well, I -- think there`s two parts of this. One is that, if you`re a tourist who`s going to the Bahamas or if you`re a citizen of the Bahamas, I`m sure that you want to have confidence in the legal system, the judicial system, the law enforcement system, that if something bad happens to you while you`re there, that there are systems in place that are proper and that fit with our American system of investigating and making sure that.

GRACE: Hey, if you want the American system, don`t leave the country. Hello?

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: And to you, Tom O`Neil, who performed the autopsy?

O`NEIL: Who performed the autopsy? I don`t have the doctor`s name right here in front of me but it was done in the Bahamas. Is that what you mean?

GRACE: Was it the family doctor?

O`NEIL: No, the family physician observed the autopsy.

GRACE: So the autopsy was performed by the correct Bohemian official, correct?

O`NEIL: Correct.

GRACE: And the family doctor observed?

O`NEIL: Correct.

GRACE: So back to Ken Baker.

Ken, do you sense any wrongdoing?

BAKER: No, I don`t. Let`s.

GRACE: Or you just like throwing it out there and seeing it in sticks?

BAKER: No, no, no. Don`t get me wrong, I think that -- well, first and foremost, nothing that we can conclude from how the police handled this, why the police report initially said that there was a fall and that may have contributed to it. But then we get the autopsy and that says there`s no head trauma evidence whatsoever.

All that is not going to bring back this young boy. And that`s the real tragedy here.

Now, the question that people are asking today of -- loved ones who have medical conditions such as epilepsy and seizures are this -- the Travoltas had taken him off medication and he wasn`t getting medication at the time.

So I think it`s a -- it`s a really important question that we ask ourselves as parents.

GRACE: OK.

BAKER: . as caregivers.

GRACE: Got it.

BAKER: Should our.

GRACE: Got it. Got it.

BAKER: Should people who have seizures be on medication or not?

GRACE: To the lines, Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba. a UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, hi, Nancy. I just want to say I have seizures and have had for two years now and the first seizure I had, I quit breathing totally, turned blue and everything. And if it hadn`t been for my daughter I would have died.

Maybe this is what has happened to that young child.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then they ask for some moments, he and his wife, to spend with Jett. And they stayed in the morgue for several hours.

During that time, we saw the family demonstrating through their grieving of the tremendous love and the hurt and the pain and as was later said, John described it as the worst day of his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly." Tom, was there any discrepancy between what the police report said and what the funeral home said was the condition of the body?

O`NEIL: Yes. As Ken was mentioning earlier, there`s this question about was there ever -- was there any trauma to the head? The initial report from the paramedics was that he fell in the bathroom, bumped his head on the tub, that there was a protrusion there and blood on the floor. Now the autopsy contradicts that.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Steve in Wisconsin, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, how you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did my nephew had seizures for a long time and he quit taking his drug called Nervotin and shortly after he passed away. I`m curious if -- sorry?

GRACE: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m -- curious to see if he died from not taking his medication. He`s +++++++ but I don`t know if that had something to do with it.

GRACE: I don`t know what the boy`s condition was or his ailment.

Ken Baker, do we know whether he was off his medication for sure?

BAKER: Yes, a family spokesperson actually said that Jett Travolta had been taking anti-seizure medication, but was taken off it because the side effects were great and harmful and that it was not being effective. And I`m told that`s a very common thing.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Jeffrey Stevenson, 20, Newton, New Jersey, killed in Iraq, loving, respectful, always smiling, joined Marines six months after high school. Wanted to move to California with his brother and join the LAPD.

Leaves behind parents Karen and Joe, brother and best friend, Senior Airman Robert Stevenson, sister-in-law, Brianne, niece Taylor, grandparents, Robert and Shirley. Many aunts, uncles, cousins.

Jeffrey Stevenson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 07:43:34 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Anthonys` PI Reportedly Knew Location of Caylee`s Remains

Aired January 7, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed those of Caylee. Manner of death, homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, covered in light-colored hair, hair still intact due to thick duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn that second autopsy demanded by the defense is complete. So why -- can somebody tell me why -- do Caylee`s remains still sit all alone in a cardboard box in an Orlando funeral home? No move whatsoever to lay this little girl to rest. Tonight, the shocking possibility images of little Caylee`s remains, her tiny skeleton, may be sold rears its ugly head. A judge set to hear motions to stop the sale, but can he do it? The battle over photos of Caylee`s remains erupts in court, and we have the documents.

Also tonight, a source confirms extremely disturbing reports the Anthonys` private eye found little Caylee`s remains nearly a month -- a month -- before police, but they said nothing! They`re denying it, of course. And did lawyers for George and Cindy Anthony meet with prosecutors? Why?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: My wife fell apart. She said, George, we lost her. We lost her. And I said, Lost who? Lost who? She said, Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stunning developments just moments ago in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to a member of the defense team, little Caylee`s remains have now undergone a second autopsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of death in this case is homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Cindy Anthony have said that Caylee will be laid to rest once the second autopsy is completed.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My heart is killing me right now to say it, even if it`s going into -- my granddaughter is not -- no longer alive. If we lost my granddaughter, I`ve lost my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cooper (ph) says Mr. Casey told him Caylee was dead and that Mr. Casey knew where the remains were.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, Orange County prosecutors are concerned that three disks containing X-rays and photos of the skull and bones of little Caylee could be released to the public when they`re given over to the defense. A showdown is looming in court, where the judge is expected to hear arguments as to whether these three disks should be given to the tot mom`s defense team.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: My only concern, next to Caylee, is you guys -- my only concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news. A second autopsy of little Caylee complete as war breaks out over the sale of images of this child`s remains, photos of her tiny skeleton. Absolutely unacceptable!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The skeletonized remains of little Caylee found just yards from her own home have now reportedly gone through a second autopsy. Forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee says the skull and bones of little Caylee were examined by Dr. Werner Spitz.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That distinct odor, that`s something you never forget. I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now that the second autopsy has been completed, both public and private memorial serves are expected to be scheduled in the coming days.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: We`re a grieving family, frustrated as heck because -- I didn`t even care where Casey was at. I still don`t care where Casey`s at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, a battle over disks containing X-rays and photos of the remains of Caylee has caused a stir, with the state alleging that once the documents leave their office that they could be sold for profit. An emergency hearing has been scheduled tomorrow, where prosecutors will ask the judge to place certain restrictions on the X-rays and photos should they be given to the defense team.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. All I want is Caylee home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, standing by there at that funeral home. What`s the latest?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, the latest is we`ve learned now that that second autopsy that we`ve been waiting for happened -- actually happened about five days ago. We don`t know what the hold-up for this funeral service is. We thought that the hold-up for the funeral service was that the second autopsy hadn`t been completed. Now we learn that that did happen actually about five days ago by Werner Spitz. You know that he has been made famous in cases such as Nicole Brown Simpson and JonBenet Ramsey.

GRACE: Straight out to a special guest joining us tonight from New Haven, Connecticut, Dr. Henry Lee, famed forensic scientist, expert for the Anthony defense team. He is a distinguished professor out of the University of New Haven. Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. Dr. Henry Lee, you have confirmed for us that the second autopsy is complete. What can you tell us?

HENRY LEE, PH.D., FORENSIC SCIENTIST, DEFENSE EXPERT: Well, I`ve just confirmed, you know, we understand Dr. Werner Spitz did conduct a second autopsy about five, six days ago.

GRACE: Has there been any move for the family to have a burial?

LEE: Well, this between (ph) the family and attorneys. As an expert, of course, there are many other things have to do. We have to look at our original autopsy, photo X-ray to compare once the second autopsy because we thought (ph) the original photo and X-ray really difficult to see what`s happened before.

GRACE: But Dr. Henry Lee, to compare X-rays does not require that this child`s skeleton sit in a cardboard box in a funeral home.

LEE: Well, if there are any tests have to be done, it`s better right now we can conduct all the tests that we can do. Once it`s buried, it`s going to -- you know, if some tests have to be done and now you have to exhumation the body, create more problems and more psychological pressure for the family if you have to pick up the body again.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee, the body is completely skeletonized, according to our sources. So what test -- there`s no tissue to test. So why do you still need to perform tests? If all you need to do is compare X-rays, that could have already been done.

LEE: Well, we have to know whether or not they can complete a toxicology test, any other evidence collected by the prosecution. What`s the laboratory result? Without any laboratory result, without any report, without any photographs, it`s very difficult defense expert to do anything, to compare anything.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee, toxicology results would come back from tissue and hair. Why would you need Caylee`s skeleton based on toxicology reports?

LEE: Well, we have to know which hair, you know, what tissue to...

GRACE: But that...

LEE: ... whether or not have anything to compare with.

GRACE: But that has nothing do with the skeleton.

LEE: Skeleton...

GRACE: Hair and tissue...

LEE: It`s not my decision. Don`t ask me this question. I don`t make any decisions.

GRACE: But what I`m saying is you`re saying...

(CROSSTALK)

LEE: ... forensic end, as a forensic scientist. We have to look at what the prosecution report result is. Without any photographic result, nothing we can do.

GRACE: OK, Dr. Henry Lee...

LEE: Yes.

GRACE: ... tissue and hair results have nothing to do with this child`s skeleton.

LEE: The skeleton...

GRACE: Would you agree to that?

LEE: ... you have to examine microscopically because only determine - - if the manner of the death still a questionable thing and the cause of death unknown, (INAUDIBLE) to looking into all the detail.

GRACE: Joining me also tonight, Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. What would toxicology results on tissue and hair have to do -- or how could they possibly hold up the burial of these skeletal remains?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I don`t rightly know the answer to your question. A person who does the second autopsy should take small samples so that they can do their own tests. But after those samples are taken, I don`t know of a reasonable reason to hold up the burial.

GRACE: Agreed. Dr. Henry Lee, who performed the second autopsy?

LEE: Dr. Spitz.

GRACE: Right. An esteemed doctor in his own right, Dr. Werner Spitz, correct?

LEE: Right.

GRACE: Henry, when was the autopsy completed?

LEE: I think approximately five, six days ago.

GRACE: Five or six days ago. Was it done there at the funeral home?

LEE: (INAUDIBLE) autopsy. Basically, it`s just look at the remain. However, there are some test result haven`t come back yet.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot of bombshell developments in the Caylee Anthony investigation. And with me right now, forensic scientist, famed forensic scientist and member the Anthony defense team, Dr. Henry Lee is with us. Dr. Henry Lee, what were the findings of Spitz`s autopsy?

LEE: I don`t know. You have to ask Dr. Spitz. I have no -- I haven`t received any information yet.

GRACE: Do you know who was present at the autopsy?

LEE: I don`t know, either.

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, when do you believe you are heading back to Orlando?

LEE: Once we know the, you know, crime scene -- get the crime scene photo, laboratory report, then we can probably look into what tests have to confirm (ph), what additional tests should be done. So it`s all up to when the prosecution go to release their report and release the original photograph to us.

GRACE: With us tonight exclusively, Dr. Henry Lee.

Let`s go now to Kathi Belich, reporter with WFTV. Kathi, is there confirmation that a PI who worked with the Anthonys actually knew where the skeleton was nearly a month before police were alerted?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, I can tell you that a private investigator that worked with the Anthonys and alongside their private investigator has told the lead detectives in this case from the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office that Dominic Casey had detailed information about where to look and that`s why he went to the scene, was to look for the remains.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This afternoon, private investigator Jim Hoover, who volunteered his services to the Anthony family, brought his camera equipment and tape to an Orlando law office, where he and his attorney met with the lead investigators from the Orange County sheriff`s office and the FBI for about three hours. When the detectives left with Hoover`s 10- minute video of the scene from November, they seemed encouraged.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) this is helpful, that this is moving you along?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I think so. Yes, very helpful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoover and his lawyer sat down with Channel 9 minutes later and revealed some of the information Hoover shared with the detectives, that Mr. Casey called Hoover on November 14, and asked him to come to town and meet at Mr. Casey`s office. On the morning of November 15, that`s when Hoover says Mr. Casey told him Caylee was dead and that Mr. Casey knew where the remains were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Stunning. If these allegations are true, that means the private eye who worked for the Anthonys knew where little Caylee`s remains are nearly a month before police did but said nothing and let them lay there out in the elements. That begs the question, if the private eye knew, who worked for the Anthonys, did the Anthonys know? And of course, at trial, will it be connected back to the tot mom?

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV, who broke the story. Take me from the beginning. Tell me again what happened.

BELICH: OK. Jim Hoover told investigators today that on the 14th of November, the Anthonys` private attorney, Dominic Casey, called him and asked him to come to town and meet with Mr. Casey. On the 15th in the morning, Mr. Casey met with him at the office, and Hoover says Mr. Casey told him, Caylee is dead and I know where her remains are and we have to go look for him. Hoover says that is why they went to the scene on November 15, a Saturday, and November 16.

Hoover told investigators Dominic Casey knew where to search and what to look for, and they specifically went to that location to do a detailed search of that location. Hoover says when he was there on those two days, they did not find the body. He says that Dominic Casey went back to that scene at least two other times after that without Hoover. We don`t know if he was alone or he was with anyone else. But that`s the new information.

GRACE: OK. To bounty hunter Leonard Padilla joining us out of Sacramento, California. He`s been saying this for some time now. Leonard, now you can tell everybody "I told you so."

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I`m not going do that because there`s more to the story than that.

GRACE: Oh, Lord. Hit me.

PADILLA: Well, you don`t want to hear about Kronk, do you.

GRACE: Are you back to saying the meter reader got his information from someone at the jail?

PADILLA: I don`t know where he got it, OK?

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: But he definitely got information from somebody because he was out there on the 11th. He was out -- back out there on September the 2nd. And he finally, finally on the 11th of December exposed the body by calling law enforcement. That`s no coincidence on anything like that. It just...

GRACE: Well, if the information came from the jail, it obviously came from the tot mom.

PADILLA: It had to come from Casey through somebody. I would assume it was Lee. Lee passed it onto somebody, who passed it on to Kronk.

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer, who`s been on the case since the very beginning. Anything that you can add, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, these things that Leonard are saying are pretty shocking, Nancy. But one of the things that we are finding out which is pretty interesting is that the Anthonys, they had this tip at the Florida mall, which was the 16th, which would have been the day after they were out there at this site where the remains were found, and they were carrying on with this tip. So if the investigator knew that the remains were out there, that`s going to be a lot of questions that they have to answer.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Out of New York, Susan Moss, child advocate, Alex Sanchez, veteran defense attorney, and out of the Florida jurisdiction, Joe Episcopo, a veteran trial lawyer, knows his way around the courtroom. Weigh in, Susan Moss.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If they knew where this body was hidden, Caylee (SIC) will stay in the jail where she`s sitting. This is a bombshell, and this is really going to have the prosecution rethink whether they`re going to go for a higher than just life in prison. They may go for the death penalty.

GRACE: Sanchez?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is very interesting information, but the question I have as a defense lawyer is how is this going to somehow be incorporated into the criminal trial? Is the prosecution going to be able to connect all these dots and call all these witnesses to establish what, there was some type of a conspiracy? I think it ultimately will be valueless.

GRACE: Episcopo, it`s not necessarily a conspiracy. It`s the fact that if the allegations are true -- and right now, Dominic Casey is apparently denying them -- if they are true, then the Anthony investigator knows where the body is. Where did he get the information?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he might have got it from the defendant. You know, it`s amazing. She hasn`t really told anybody anything. This is the first time we`ve gotten any kind of possible admission to something. So I don`t know. Maybe it really isn`t true at all. I would say this has nothing to do with making this a death penalty case. The aggravating factors that are required by the statute are not here.

GRACE: To leave a child`s body out in the woods, out in the elements, just so time can pass and it will become more and more skeletonized, less and less able to identify the cause of death? You know what, I disagree with you. Susan, what about it?

MOSS: Well, it make the case so much easier to prove. And if you make this case so much easier to prove, I think a jury may want to do than do more than just life.

GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist joining us out of New York. If these allegations are true, it points directly back to the tot mom sitting behind bars, knowing where her child`s body is and letting it degenerate, letting it deteriorate day after day. Hurricane Fay comes. The water rises. The water goes down, and she knows her child`s bones are out there in the woods?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. If this is true, if it turns out to be true, it will confirm what a lot of her behavior has kind of indicated up until now, which is that she knows way more than she`s telling and she`s protecting herself.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what do you make of it?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I tell you what, Nancy. What I -- number one, let`s subpoena the cell phone records of both Casey and Hoover. If there was a lot of activity on those days in November -- you know, let`s say we can find out exactly who they were talking to, where the information came from because Casey can`t claim any kind of privilege whatsoever. Secondly, if we want to find out whether they`re telling the truth, hey, why not give them a polygraph. If they have nothing to hide, let the FBI give them a polygraph.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Denise in Massachusetts. Hi, Denise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you today?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`ve been listening to you and I have so many questions. But my main question is, if somebody is convicted of a crime where she`s in jail for a crime, why would they let these pictures go? Why can`t the court sanction that and stop these pictures from being released?

GRACE: Well, right now, she`s not convicted of a crime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand that.

GRACE: She is simply charged. You know what? That`s an excellent question. And a similar issue came up after the death of racing legend Dale Earnhardt, "The Intimidator." Remember his autopsy photos were about to be released and it was stopped. What about it, Joe Episcopo? Can the release of these photos of the skeleton of little Caylee be stopped from release?

EPISCOPO: No because the race car incident was not a criminal matter. This is a criminal matter. The defense has a right to it and the constitutional...

GRACE: But do they have a right to sell them and make money?

EPISCOPO: That`s -- but they`re not -- that`s not what they`re saying. That`s an accusation that people are making. They have a right...

GRACE: Do you know how much money has already been made off Caylee photos so far? Over $200,000, allegedly.

EPISCOPO: You can`t presume the defense is going do that. They have a right to the photos. If they take that action afterwards, then they`ll have to deal with it accordingly. But all they need is to see them. That`s what they`re trying to do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: We never really got a full description of Zanny. They told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a line-up.

CASEY ANTHONY: They`re full of (DELETED). I told them multiple times, Find a sketch artist. Show me pictures. Show me something. I can point her out to you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A major decision could be imminent in the Caylee Anthony case in Florida. A judge could decide whether Casey Anthony will face questioning by lawyers representing Zenaida Gonzalez as early as tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Battle erupts over the possible sale of photos of little Caylee`s remains. Motions set for tomorrow. If you think it`s not true, take a look at the money already made off little Caylee.

Out to the lines. Maria in New York. Hi, Maria.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in and for watching. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I actually have a question for the lawyers. If Casey did confess to her attorney, Mr. Baez, that she did commit this heinous crime, what responsibility, knowing that she did do it?

GRACE: Joe?

EPISCOPO: If she is going to take the stand and say that she didn`t do it, then the attorney has to approach the bench. He has to tell the judge that his client is going to testify against his wishes, that he`s not going to ask any questions. He`s going to introduce her and let her give a narration. And that`s how it`s done.

GRACE: And very quickly, Dr. Henry Lee, what lab is performing the tests for the defense?

LEE: Well, right now, we don`t even have any samples to perform in the test. We`re waiting for the prosecution to release all the samples to us. It`s very important. We don`t even know how many...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutor in the case against Casey Anthony don`t want to release three disks of digital photos of her daughter`s remains to Jose Baez unless and until a judge orders some special conditions.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Their fear is that they will reproduce them and sell them for a profit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don`t want them to be copied. They don`t want them to be printed. They don`t want the Baez firm to be able to send these either through e-mail or snail mail.

They want anyone who looks at them to only be able to do it in Jose Baez` presence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A spokesman for Baez told us, it`s only delaying tactics. We can take our own pictures during the second autopsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The skeletonized remains of little Caylee found just yards from her own home have now reportedly gone to a second autopsy. An emergency hearing has been scheduled tomorrow where prosecutors will ask the judge to place certain restriction on the x-rays and photos should they be given to the defense team.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We have the documents, the motions flying back and forth between the defense and the prosecution regarding the possible sale of images of little Caylee`s skeleton. That`s set down to be heard tomorrow morning.

Joining us outside of the funeral home where the remains are being stored, Kathi Belich with WFTV and Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO.

Kathi Belich, you`re there outside of the funeral home. Do they have any security, whatsoever?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: You know I -- don`t see any security here right now. And service unrelated, obviously, just let out a few moments ago. But I don`t see anything special outside of this building to indicate there`s any special security here.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, what can you tell me about the measures, if any, they are taking?

PETRIMOULX: We don`t see any extra security out here. In fact, one of the camera guys was telling me that he walked around the back the other day, and it`s a dark alley. There`s a back entrance and the front, it`s not a very secure place.

I mean there`s big glass windows. There -- there seems to be no extra security men. It doesn`t seem like a particularly secure building so, you know, that`s that.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, I`m taking a look at how much money`s already been made off little Caylee. ABC News allegedly pays $200,000 to licensed home video. $200,000. Baez allegedly intended to sell an interview with the tot mom for $500,000. Half a million dollars.

NBC News allegedly paid $5,000 for photo licensing.

What does that mean? Photo licensing, what is that?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. And don`t forget also there is Larry Garrison who is the Anthony spokes person who is paid $6500 from NBC as well for licensing photos. But basically.

GRACE: Now wait a minute, are these photo licensing fees in conjunction with an interview with anybody?

LANCE: Well, they don`t necessarily have to be in conjunction with the interview.

GRACE: Well, were they? That`s what I`m asking you. When they interviewed someone related to the case is that when they paid the licensing fee for the photo?

LANCE: Well, the ABC one, allegedly, that one was with "20/20." There was nobody from the family who is interviewed. Jose Baez was interviewed in that one.

With NBC, there were some interviews that took place with Cindy Anthony, George Anthony along the way. But we don`t know, for sure, if these photos came along with the packaged deal with the interview.

GRACE: Right now, as we go to air, we just learned the second autopsy on little Caylee`s remains is complete. And yet she sits, most likely, according to reports, in a cardboard box at a local funeral home.

No move whatsoever to lay this child to rest. And now a frenzy of motions filed over the possible sell of photos of her skeleton. That`s what it boils down to tonight.

In court tomorrow, what`s to happen, Natisha?

LANCE: Nancy, in court tomorrow, the first hearing is supposed to be on Casey Anthony`s/Zenaida Gonzalez. And they are going to argue -- Zenaida Gonzalez` attorneys are going to argue that Casey should be deposed on Monday, where the defense is saying that she should not be deposed before her trial.

GRACE: What else?

LANCE: Also, after that one, there is going to be the hearing about the photos. The three disks that have the x-rays as well as crime scene photos on those disks. Now the prosecution is saying that they don`t want these photos to be released to the public.

In the past, the defense has allegedly been paid money for photos. And they don`t want that to happen again in the future.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Joe Episcopo.

Alex Sanchez, now, let`s talk about in reality. Can the judge actually stop the sell of photos of Caylee`s remains, if the defense, say, sends the photos via the Internet?

To defense experts. There`s nothing wrong with that.

All right, if they do that, and what if a computer copy person sees the photo and tries to sell it to, say "The Enquirer," who knows who.

Can a judge actually control this? I mean this motion asks for the defense not to send it by Internet. Not to send it by mail. But even the experts have to come to Florida to Jose Baez` office. And sit with him while they look at the photos.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. A law that can`t be enforced is not much of a law. And it -- let`s say Mr. Baez has to fax this information or e-mail it to somebody in Indiana, you know, Florida does not have control over Indiana.

So if someone in Indiana takes that disk and decides to sell it, the Florida judge has no jurisdiction then.

GRACE: Alex, that was beautiful. But does it mean, no, it can`t be enforced? Is that what you`re saying?

SANCHEZ: That`s what I`m saying.

GRACE: OK, I think -- I think I interpreted that correctly.

To Susan Moss, the reality is the defense has a right to use experts. They can use out-of-state experts if they want to. But the judge could try and order the experts, the defense force their experts to come to Florida and look at them in his office. \ But that could be reversed on appeal.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. But this judge does have the authority to make sure that Jose does what, and only what this judge let`s him do. So if this judge says that Jose is not allowed to transmit those photos, Jose better not do it. And that`s how he would enforce this law.

It may be overturned on an appeal but the judge certainly has authority over Jose.

GRACE: I`ll tell you another big issue that`s going to be at trial is did this private investigator get knowledge of where the body was from the tot mom.

Now I want to go back to Joe Episcopo. Joe, if the investigator`s working for the Anthony family, that`s not necessarily for the tot mom. So they don`t have confidentiality whatsoever. He`s not really with the defense. So he can be forced to testify.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, you know, I`ve been thinking about that. That`s exactly what would happen because you`ve got to have that direct connection between the defendant and the -- investigator. And you know -- the defense attorney.

You all have that privilege because you`re all working together. But another investigator not in the defense team, there could be a problem with trying to assert privilege.

GRACE: You`re darn right. You`re darn right. There`s not going to be a confidentiality argument for him to make like attorney/client parishioner. There`s husband/wife privilege.

No, no, no, no. That does not exist unless you are working for the defense.

EPISCOPO: Correct.

GRACE: For the defendant.

I want to go back to the lines. Dawn in Illinois, hi, Dawn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m just curious how the time line coincides. When the Anthonys request an immunity does that -- I mean, that coincides perfectly with, obviously, the defense team was notified where the body was. And also how does it coincide with Lee Anthony`s rumor of legal problems? Get an attorney waiver.

You know, all of these -- all happened all at once, but which one happened first?

GRACE: What about it, Natisha? How did the timeline play out? When did the Anthonys first want immunity? When did Lee Anthony get a lawyer, and when do we believe the Private I found out where the remains were?

LANCE: Well, they first started asking for immunity. If you remember they got this attorney when they were coming back from California. And the immunity questions started coming into play not too long after that.

GRACE: Coming back from California, but that is exactly -- remember they were in California...

LANCE: Right.

GRACE: . when police found the remains back, I believe, December 11th.

LANCE: Correct. So this is right after the remains were found. Now, Lee Anthony just got an attorney about a week ago. So this is not too long ago but all of these things are lining up right -- one after another.

GRACE: Which brings up the question, to you, Leonard Padilla, if the Anthony family, private I knows where the remains are, does this mean that all along George and Cindy Anthony have known where the remains were?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHED FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: No. No, I don`t believe so but let me explain something else.

GRACE: I just cannot -- I cannot believe that.

PADILLA: No, no, that`s not there. They -- I don`t even know when they might have known before the -- December the 11th. But let me explain something, the $1.7 million deal that Lifetime has on the table, according to Todd Black, has been tabled pending whether they get indicted or not.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have seen private investigator Jim Hoover with the video camera before but today the focus is on a videotape he says recorded of this wooded area, where Caylee Marie Anthony`s remains were found about a month before they were found.

PADILLA: I say how can you have a film of the area? He says, well, Dominic called me on the 15th, told me Caylee had been found. Hoover told me that he asked him, is she alive? He says no, she`s dead but we`re going to go get her right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Hoover knows who told Mr. Casey that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he does not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does Mr. Hoover know who Mr. Casey is on the telephone when he was (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he does not. And these are beliefs that -- based on his recollection that there were numerous telephone calls during the course of the 15th search and the 16th search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. To Arusyak in Indiana. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. God bless you and your family.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question -- thank you. My question, there was telling us before when I was following your program, months ago before they find the body, I remember one of the lawyer, I don`t know the name, I`m not very good to remember the name, but they kind of tried to tell us that there is no body, there is no case.

Now we have the body. What else they waiting for? We are in 2009. We need to find out what happened to that child. They have to.

GRACE: You know, interesting question.

To Drew Petrimoulx, will this case go forward in March? Do you believe it`s going forward?

PETRIMOULX: That`s a tough one to say. And you know you would think that what would depend is this whole Zenaida Gonzalez case where she`s filed a whole defamation lawsuit against them, and that lawsuit has to go forward and that trial has to take place.

You would imagine that it could be pushed back after that. Also there are hundreds of witnesses that have to be called in this case. The examination, as Dr. Henry Lee was saying, still hasn`t taken place from other people in the defense team. So there`s still a lot of leg work that has to be done before this trial can take place.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Joe Episcopo, just because the defense drags its feet, it`s not a reason to delay the trial. It`s my understanding in the Florida jurisdiction, you get put on a trial calendar, you go to trial.

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all, you have your speedy trial, right, which is -- you know, statutory 180 days.

GRACE: Believe me they`re not waiving that flag in the courtroom.

EPISCOPO: Right.

GRACE: The defense is not screaming for a speedy trial.

EPISCOPO: Correct. And they`re not going to. And by the way this civil case.

GRACE: Of course if they have any brain they would have done it before the body was found. But they didn`t.

EPISCOPO: Well, there`s a lot of things. But this civil case isn`t going to -- isn`t going to interfere with this at all.

GRACE: No.

EPISCOPO: That`s going to stop. That`s going to be abated.

GRACE: So bottom line, yes, no, will it go forward in March?

EPISCOPO: Well, obviously, if the judge pushes the defense before they`re ready, that`s an appellate issue.

GRACE: Before they`re ready.

EPISCOPO: Yes, that`s right.

GRACE: Well, they can sit on their thumb until March, Sanchez, saying I`m not ready.

EPISCOPO: No, they`re going to argue that the state`s delaying the case by not letting the photos. You see they have a counter argument against all this. The case won`t go to trial in March.

GRACE: What about it, Alex?

SANCHEZ: You know if the prosecution wins that argument tomorrow about having Baez, have very limited scope over those photographs, this case is going to last until 2015. Because it`s going to take forever to bring the experts into Florida.

GRACE: Right.

SANCHEZ: . to review these information with Baez and for Baez to go to California or to Washington state. So the prosecution, they better be careful for what they`re wishing for.

GRACE: Yes, Oscar While, be careful for what you wish, you will surely get it.

Susan Moss, what about it? I`ve got a feeling the judge is going to force them forward.

MOSS: This is the slow leading the slow. I think that judge is going to try to force them forward, but with all of these motions and the fact that nobody has really taken effort to look at the evidence that they have let alone the more evidence that Jose Baez is now asking for, they`re not going to be ready by March.

And I don`t think the judge is going to jeopardize an appeal to push them forward.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI.

Mike, what duty would the private I have had? He`s not working for Casey Anthony, the tot mom. He`s working for the Anthony family.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Exactly.

GRACE: He knows where the child`s body is? I mean how do you just sit on information like that?

BROOKS: You know I don`t know, you know. And Dominic Casey, he`s trying to distance himself now from Hoover. You know how many times has his story changed, Nancy? You know because.

GRACE: You mean, Hoover`s or Casey`s?

BROOKS: Casey. You know, he now -- because now -- we heard from Leonard, that he had called Hoover. And now Casey -- Dominic Casey saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, I`m distancing myself. He wasn`t working for me. So as I said bring them in there. Put them on the box. Let`s see what they had to say. And you know what?

GRACE: Well, you can`t force anybody to take a polygraph.

BROOKS: No, you can`t

GRACE: That`s not going to happen.

BROOKS: But if he has nothing to hide, Nancy, why not? And also, you know, with -- Leonard`s conspiracy theory with Kronk, bring him in and see if he would also take a polygraph to -- just totally put that conspiracy theory out of window.

GRACE: But, you know, bottom line on that, Leonard Padilla, as far as Kronk goes, the meter reader who found the body, really, what difference does it make where he got his information? If it was hearsay, tot mom told so-and-so, told so-and-so, he found out. It`s not going into trial.

Bottom line is he`s the one who called police.

So Leonard Padilla, when you first learned about this phone call, you immediately contacted the authorities, correct?

PADILLA: Absolutely. I couldn`t dial Savage`s cell phone quick enough.

GRACE: And so.

PADILLA: I`d already been threatened with a lie detector test once before.

GRACE: Yes, you know, you`re right. You`re right. And they never followed through with that, did they?

PADILLA: No. So why shouldn`t everybody else be threatened with the same thing? I think Kronk`s already taken the lie detector test. I think Savage has already got him over a barrel. Savage has -- given it up. They`re just trying to figure out how to put the case together.

See, if Kronk gives up all of that information and it leads back to Casey, how is she going to say I didn`t kill my daughter?

GRACE: So tell me, when Hoover told you about this conversation with the P.I., was he concerned that the remains are laying out in a wooded area?

PADILLA: No, he was more interested in how much money he was going to be able to sell the film for.

GRACE: And what did you tell him?

PADILLA: Upwards of $200,000.

GRACE: What did you tell him about contacting authorities?

PADILLA: I told him he should contact the authorities, had he contacted him -- I mentioned it two or three times.

GRACE: And to you, Susan Moss, is there any legal liability, criminal liability, when you know where a murdered body is and you sit on it?

MOSS: He does not have the obligation to come forward. But there is nothing so cold as trying for a movie rights to be sold on this. This is just awful.

GRACE: You`re right. In our American jurisprudence justice system there`s no duty to be a Good Samaritan. You don`t have to volunteer information. You can look the other way. You can wash your hands of it like you don`t even know what`s happening, and you cannot be prosecuted.

Out to the lines, Laurie in California. Hi, Laurie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Quick question. If I`m right, didn`t George and Cindy stop visiting Casey before Thanksgiving and haven`t been back to visit since? Which makes me wonder if.

GRACE: They certainly did. What about it, Kathi Belich?

BELICH: Well, they have not visited her since she was indicted and went back to jail on October 14th. We have not been able to find out why. The defense says that they don`t want their every word being videotaped.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to a member of the defense team, little Caylee`s remains have now undergone a second autopsy. Now that the second autopsy has been completed, both public and private memorial services are expected to be scheduled in the coming days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s put this little girl to rest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines of Monica in Minnesota. Hi, Monica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve got a question that involves Leonard`s theory.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess I believe totally in what he`s saying, but I wanted to add something else to it. I`ve been following the case since the beginning. There was one sighting that sounded very credible where a woman said she`d seen a white car and she thought it was a friend of hers, so she slowed down.

And that she`d seen a woman coming out wearing a baseball cap. And this was real early in the case. Now, Casey had a shovel, had borrowed a shovel from her neighbor, yet the remains that were found were not buried at all and no signs of any attempt to bury them.

Could she not have been buried the remains -- buried there, and when people started to really search that area, at that time, I wonder if possibly Lee might have been tipped off and the remains moved to where they were moved to?

GRACE: What about it, Leonard Padilla?

PADILLA: No, I don`t think so. I think on the 24th..

GRACE: I don`t either.

PADILLA: . she just took the body right around the corner there from the house when her dad almost found it. Law enforcement thinks it was on the 18th. The shovel, you understand, was returned over to the neighbor. He then turned it over to the detectives.

As far as the baseball hat, if you look at the woman who was removing the garbage.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: . you`ll see the hat in the garbage bag which is the same hat that belonged to her friend Annie. The hat seems to have been torn up because she was upset or something. I don`t know why the hat ended up in the garbage.

GRACE: Tomorrow morning these motions to be heard in court.

But let`s stop now and remember Marine Staff Sergeant Danny Dupree, 28, Lockport, Louisiana, killed Iraq on a fourth tour. An active member of his high school ROTC program. Joined up right after graduation. Assigned to the Marines` elite silent drill platoon.

Leaves behind grandmother Hilda, grieving wife Crystal, son Daniel.

Danny Dupree, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a special happy birthday to our number one fan, Mary Lou Murphy, who tunes in every night from Pennsylvania.

Happy birthday, Mary Lou.

I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 07:57:30 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Court Hearing on Caylee Autopsy Photos

Aired January 8, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed those of Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, a skull covered in light-colored hair, hair still intact due to thick duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Bombshell. Tot mom Casey Anthony dragged into the courtroom today in shackles. Did she think she could hide out from Lady Justice in her private jail cell? The trial judge sending deputies pronto to get her out of her cell and into the courtroom.

And highly unusual, the victim, little Caylee -- her family is a no- show in court. George, Cindy and Lee Anthony all decide not to come to court as the state stands alone seeking justice for Caylee. At issue, the shocking possibility images of little Caylee`s remains -- yes, her tiny skeleton -- may be sold rears its ugly head.

And the defense confirms in court that second autopsy is complete. So why -- why -- do little Caylee`s remains still sit all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home? When will this child be laid to rest?

And tonight, after extremely disturbing reports the Anthonys` private eye found Caylee`s remains a month before police but said nothing, tonight that PI responds. And is there an immunity deal for George and Cindy Anthony? Why?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With shackles on her wrists and ankles, the tot mom arrives in court and was placed under oath, claiming she would tell the whole truth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that (INAUDIBLE) will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) your name.

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County judge demanded the tot mom appear in court today as part of a hearing about X-rays and photos of the remains of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Believe it or not, this motion, in my opinion, is moot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can restrict things (INAUDIBLE) order you to make no copies (INAUDIBLE) the images in any way, shape or form.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have this young lady`s life in my hands. I find it a grand insult that anyone would even assume that I would engage in selling the photos of a dead baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news, Tot mom Casey Anthony shackled and dragged out of her jail cell and into the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony was hauled into court today after a judge ruled Anthony must show up in person to waive her right to appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony, as best you can, raise your right hand for me (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that (INAUDIBLE) this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here today on several motions filed by the state and by your attorney, and one of the motions (INAUDIBLE) had to do with autopsy pictures. That motion was done in your absence, and you`re aware of that, right?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. As I understand it, Mr. Baez spoke to you sometime today or before (ph) today about waiving your appearance here, about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you, in fact, give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, do I.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Multiple motions were heard by the judge today. The judge determined that the defense is entitled to the X-rays and photos of Caylee but agreed with the state attorney`s office that certain restrictions should be placed on the images and how they`re shown to the defense experts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can assure you that the defense, nor anyone associated with my office would ever dare sell these photographs to anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One radio, in court today. Rory, what happened? Why was she a no-show in court?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, good evening, Nancy. The judge said, you know, he`s let things slide long enough. And he said, I want to see Casey Anthony in this courtroom within the next half hour, and that`s just what happened. She had refused a request earlier in the day to come to the courtroom to appear for this evidentiary hearing about what to do with the photos and the X-rays of her dead daughter.

GRACE: Now, when you say the judge said he had let things slide enough, is that really what he said? Were those his words?

O`NEILL: The judge said that he had been lax, actually, in enforcing these rules in the past that do require her to be at these hearings, even for what some would consider an evidentiary item, a pre-trial motion. So he did say that he was actually a bit lax in enforcing the rules that were on the book.

The state came forward and said, Look, these are the rules, we want Casey Anthony to be here for this proceeding, and the judge agreed. And he said, We`ll continue this hearing right now and we`ll order that she show up in this courtroom in shackles right now, and we`ll continue the hearing and wait for her to get here. So they didn`t lose any time. It was an official way to get things done. But he demanded that she show up front and center.

GRACE: Rory O`Neill joining me outside the funeral home there in Orlando, Florida, where Caylee`s remains are sitting alone in a cardboard box. This is insanity, that she was not there for that hearing and the judge had to go send (ph) her to roust her out of her jail cell.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. With me, felony prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Eleanor Dixon. Also with me, veteran defense attorney in Atlanta Peter Odom and high-profile defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" joining me out of the New York jurisdiction, Mickey Sherman.

Eleanor, they are flirting with a reversal, and we haven`t even struck a jury yet, by not having this woman in court for every single hearing.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, Nancy. It`s a critical stage of the proceedings, and the defendant must be present at each one of those. And the defense attorney can`t just say, Oh, she`s waived her presence, because down the line -- favorite defense trick -- Oh, her rights were violated because she wasn`t there.

GRACE: And you know, Mickey Sherman, you and Peter have represented a lot of defendants, and they may love, love, love you at the time of trial, then when they sit in jail for a couple of years, they start thinking about how it`s all your fault.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A couple of weeks.

GRACE: Yes, a couple of hours...

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: ... that it`s all your fault that they`re behind bars, not that they did something wrong, but that you did something wrong at trial. And then they`ll say, Hey, hey, there was that evidentiary hearing that I didn`t go to. Now that I`m thinking about it, yes, I wanted to be at that hearing. That`s ineffective assistance of counsel, and then you`ve got grounds for reversal, Sherman.

SHERMAN: Yes, it`s not ineffective, but it`s bad lawyering and...

GRACE: Well, says you.

SHERMAN: Well, it`s not the best rules (ph) in the world. You might as well -- you should have her there. She`s entitled to be there. She may be entitled to waive her appearance, and that`s obviously the practice, but it`s not good for the whole case. She should be there. It`s her case. It`s her life. And the judge is right. Get her there. It`s just a better practice, so she can`t later say she wasn`t made aware of this, wasn`t made aware of that. You want to protect the integrity of the disposition of the case, whether it`s guilty, not guilty or whatever.

GRACE: And Peter Odom, there`s another facet to this. You remember - - well, I do, I don`t know who in America, unless you were living in a cave somewhere, doesn`t remember it. But I remember when Orenthal James Simpson, O.J. Simpson, stood up in court and said "100 percent not guilty." I mean, he really laid it on thick. Everybody remembers that. He was at every hearing. And yes, he was in custody. He never missed an opportunity to come into that courtroom, looking good and trying to make an impression on that potential jury pool.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, of course, in O.J.`s case, it was because he wanted to posture and pose for the jury. But it`s also important to have the defendant there for all these pre-trial hearings. In a case of this size, of this magnitude, there`s going to be an appeal. Everything is going to be scrutinized, and it`s absolutely right for the judge to make certain that she`s there for everything so that she can`t complain later.

GRACE: Let`s go out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." And that`s not -- that`s just the tip of the iceberg, as far as I`m concerned. We`ve got the legal issue, but here`s the other thing. If Casey Anthony is so determined to say she was not involved in the death of her daughter, then it seems to me she would want to be in court to advance not only her not guilty plea but finding the truth of what happened to little Caylee. How`s she going to do that sitting in jail, ordering treats and listening to her transistor radio?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Oh, you`re absolutely right, Nancy. And you know what`s really the bottom line truth? She has never, ever shown up for this little girl. No wonder she doesn`t want to show up in court. She didn`t want to mother this girl. She didn`t want to have a little girl in the first place. The little girl had a loving father, Jesse Grund. She took her away because she was jealous. And then she didn`t go look for the girl when the girl went missing. She has never, ever shown up at any step along the way. And I think she`s a coward, too, and that`s why she`s not showing up.

GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill. Rory, you were in the courtroom. What happened when the tot mom finally came in in full shackles?

O`NEILL: She was shackled. She came in about 35 minutes after the judge had ordered that she get there. They took a quick break. She came in and she sat silently, did not show any emotion again. This is what we`ve seen in the past -- showed no outward emotion, anyway. And a quick little smile at the end of day to her attorney, almost a nod of thanks, but that was about it. Otherwise, few reactions. A couple of questions, What`s your name, and a couple of yes or no questions after that. So there really wasn`t much input from her during the hearing.

GRACE: Let`s take a listen to tot mom Casey Anthony in court today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony, as best you can, raise your right hand for me, if you would, to be sworn in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that (INAUDIBLE) this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. (INAUDIBLE) just answer a few questions. First of all, tell me your name.

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We are here today on several motions filed by the state and by your attorney, and one of the motions (INAUDIBLE) had to do with autopsy pictures. That motion was done in your absence, and you`re aware of that, right?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. As I understand it, Mr. Baez spoke to you sometime today or before (ph) today about waiving your appearance here, about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?

CASAREZ: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: Do you, in fact, give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: accompanied by officers and bound in shackles, the tot mom was addressed in open court, where she swore to tell the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, tell me your name.

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

GRACE: Battle erupts over the possible sale of photos of little Caylee`s remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not want a circumstance where these photographs inadvertently or potentially are, you know, displayed on some magazine at the checkout at the Publix.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I find it a grand insult that anyone would even assume that I would engage in selling the photos of a dead baby.

GRACE: Do you know how much money has already been made off of Caylee photos so far? Over $200,000, allegedly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s good cause (INAUDIBLE) to restrict the photos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill and Nikki Pierce, both of them standing by at that Orlando funeral home. Inside, little Caylee`s remains, still sitting there alone in a cardboard box. Rory, you`re in front of the funeral home. I guess you heard what the defense attorney had to say about people reporting from that location, huh?

O`NEILL: Yes. That was some of the first remarks from Jose Baez right after the hearing came to an end just outside the courthouse. He was a little upset at how (INAUDIBLE) bit of a circus or a media show out here, outside the funeral home, and it was clear in expressing his displeasure about that.

GRACE: Well, Nikki Pierce, joining us with WDBO, also outside the funeral home, has it dawned on the defense attorney that murdering your 2- year-old child should be his focus and not who is reporting from where on this story?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s entirely possible. It was certainly the focus of most of the day today. But as Rory said, it was one of the first things that he addressed after that marathon hearing. He said, Don`t go outside of the funeral home (INAUDIBLE) or something along those lines.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the very beginning. What exactly was the outcome of the issue of the sale of photos of little Caylee`s skeleton today?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: What was set up, Nancy, is that the defense said that they are going to set up a database on the home computer of Jose Baez from his law firm. And on this database, it`s going to be secured so that his experts all over the country will be able to have access to the photos. The judge said that he will grant this to them.

Jose Baez does have the photos in his possession right now. However, he cannot distribute them in any way, whether it be through mail, over Internet, nothing, but until he gets this secure database set up. Now, he`s supposed to check back with the court within about two weeks to make sure that everything has been set up. If it`s set up to the court`s liking, then he will be able to have these photos on the database and his experts will be able to look at them.

GRACE: You know, already over $200,000 have been made off the sale, that we know of, of images of little Caylee.

Out to Andy Kahan, director of the Houston mayor`s crime victims` office. He monitors the sale of "murder-abilia." Andy Kahan, a lot of items stranger than photos of remains have been sold before.

ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF HOUSTON MAYOR`S VICTIMS` CRIME OFFICE: Oh, absolutely. It`s not as farfetched as you might believe that her autopsy report and pictures eventually are going to be sold. For example, I have with me right here -- and this is being sold every day, and this is Nicole Brown Simpson`s autopsy report, and "murder-abilia" dealers sell this every day.

Right now, they`re selling crime scene photographs where John Wayne Gacy, the serial killer that murdered 33 young boys. They`re selling the crime scenes of the crawl space. And there`s a seller in Belgium that is selling crime scene pictures and more photos of victims from the Florida vampire killer.

Unfortunately, this is probably just the beginning of the merchandising and marketing of Caylee Anthony unless we do something legislatively to prevent this.

GRACE: You know, Andy, after I met you and found out about "murder- abilia" many years ago when I was speaking to some crime victims, I made that a chapter in a book that I wrote. And having researched -- I remember one day, I had been researching and researching and researching. I actually felt sick to my stomach after all the Web sites that I had looked at to write that chapter to find out more about the sale of "murder- abilia." In fact, for a while, dirt from the crawl space of John Wayne Gacy`s basement, where he would bury little boys, was for sale. Dirt from the murder scene at Waco was for sale on line. I mean, I wouldn`t put it past anybody to try to sell photos of little Caylee`s skeleton.

KAHAN: No. We see it happen every day. There`s five major dealers throughout the country. I just call them river bottom vultures and catfish dwellers. And from a victim`s perspective -- and you hit it right on the nail, Nancy -- this is absolutely nauseating and disgusting and to find out the person who murdered one of your loved ones is now having items hocked by third parties for pure profit. And you just shouldn`t be able to rob, rape and murder and make a buck off of it. And it`s maddening to me that in this country, we still allow these types of autopsy reports, photos, dirt clothing, everything...

GRACE: Correction. Correction. You don`t. You don`t allow it.

Back out to Rory O`Neill. Describe for me -- you were there in court today when the tot mom finally brought into court. What happened when she came in in shackles after the judge ordered her, rousting her out of her cell and into the courtroom?

O`NEILL: Right. Well, that`s right. She did actually refuse earlier in the day to attend the hearing. So when the judge did order her to show up, she came in, she was sworn in. And then the judge asked if she had been instructed by her attorney about the proceedings that were scheduled to take place, specifically regarding the photos, and she did say that under oath she was aware of the proceedings and what was taking place and exactly what was at stake during today`s hearing.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. What was her demeanor when you saw her come into the courtroom today?

PIERCE: Well, when she came in, first the sound of the chains on her feet preceded here. And then when she did come in, her eyes were red- rimmed and she looked straight ahead. She sat down very close to Baez, nearly hiding behind him, looking like she was a little afraid. But her face -- there wasn`t a lot of emotion expressed on her face, except for a little bit of a chin quiver when Caylee`s remains were mentioned once and a smile at the end for Baez.

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall. You know, Bethany, when I was coming to work today, I was on a conference call, hands-free, talking about the case, and it made me want to just get out of the car and run back to check on the twins, literally run. It`s hard for me to imagine sitting in court listening to the possibility of the sale of photos of your baby`s skeleton and not shed a tear. I find that highly unusual.

MARSHALL: Nancy, but you love your little babies. You show us pictures of them. We all get to adore them and appreciate them. Casey Anthony hated this little girl.

GRACE: I don`t believe that.

MARSHALL: She called her a little -- I do believe it.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m not saying the love didn`t turn into some kind of contempt, but the photos we see of her is like the eye tricking the mind because you see these loving photos of her, but yet we know what happened to the child.

MARSHALL: But remember, Nancy, she didn`t want this little girl from the very beginning. She wanted to give her away. It was her mother, Cindy, that forced her to have -- take up the responsibilities of motherhood. She did not want her. She was jealous of all the affections that were showered on this little girl.

You talked earlier about how criminals blame the attorneys. She probably -- like she blames Zenaida. She probably blames this little girl and is very angry at her for the fact that she had to show up in court today. She doesn`t link the fact that she`s there with a crime she potentially committed.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Adrianne in Pennsylvania. Hi, Adrianne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, friend. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What a segue. What I`m going to say might be moot because you`re addressing it, but is there any reason that the Anthony family cannot put a stop to any photographs being shown or being printed?

GRACE: Well, actually -- actually, it would probably be hard for them to control and virtually impossible. What about it, Eleanor?

DIXON: Well, they probably couldn`t, Nancy, because those photos aren`t necessarily their photos. Being the autopsy photos, they`re in the possession of the state.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony in court today, facing a judge for the first time since the discovery of little Caylee`s remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had the same affect that we`ve seen from Casey from the very beginning. She had a stone face. She was very matter of fact when she spoke to the judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... your name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there was no type of emotion whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anything, we saw a couple of smiles and a couple of smirks and no tears.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Anzie in Louisiana. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.

GRACE: Hello to you and to all our Cajun friends. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question about Zenaida Gonzalez.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she happens to win the civil case and Casey gets money from the rights of her story -- I heard that Lifetime is offering money if she gets indicted. If she receives money from a book deal or whatever, can Zenaida Gonzalez get that money eventually?

GRACE: Mickey Sherman?

SHERMAN: If she can find it, she can get it. You know, the problem is, is she going to pull what people consider O.J. to be doing, and that is moving money around or putting it in third party names. But if she can find it, she can get it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony was hauled into court today after a judge ruled Anthony must show up in person to waive her right to appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss Anthony, as best you can, raise your right hand for me if you would. We need to swear you in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear (INAUDIBLE) that this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I`m just going to ask you a few questions. First of all, tell me your name.

ANTHONY. Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We are here on today on several motions filed by the state and by your own attorney. And one of the motions (INAUDIBLE) had to do with autopsy pictures. That motion was done in your absence and you`re aware of that, right?

ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And just your -- as I understand it, Mr. Baez spoke to you some time today or before today about waiving your appearance here -- about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?

ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you, in fact, give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?

ANTHONY: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: There you see the tot mom answering clearly there in court. That was just a few hours ago. The tot mom being dragged into court in shackles after refusing initially to come to a court hearing regarding the death of her own daughter.

We are taking your calls live. Out to dawn in Washington. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering. I`m watching this case and this case is so sad because I have two grandsons of my own about that age.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is so sad because she is so showing no emotion at all, and of it was me I`d be showing emotion very deeply. And this case is -- just to me is so sad, and I just wish something can be done about it pretty soon because I want justice done.

GRACE: You know, to Peter, Eleanor and Mickey Sherman.

Eleanor, absolutely no emotion whatsoever. Refusing to come to court. Is this a preview of what`s going to happen in front of the jury?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: It may be very well be, Nancy, either that or she`ll shed a bunch of crocodile tears to get the jury`s sympathy.

GRACE: You know, though, Mickey Sherman, this would have been a perfect opportunity for Baez, the defense attorney, to have her dressed up, looking good, come in and cry into a paper towel the whole -- the whole time.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": And then we`d all be screaming look at this BS that she`s showing by crying those crocodile tears.

There`s no way that she could have done anything that would have been acceptable to everybody. And she wasn`t blowing off the court. She was exercising her right not to be present at a certain hearing. She wasn`t showing contempt for the court.

GRACE: Says you.

SHERMAN: Well, no, says the judge. The judge was kind of backfilling and saying, "And you did waive your appearance to be here." He wasn`t remonstrating her. He wasn`t criticizing her, nor was he criticizing Baez.

They were within their rights. Bad move, but within their rights.

GRACE: To Peter Odom, I -- noticed that she was sworn in, and I would always swear in defendants before they said one word in court. Why?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because on the record you want to make sure that it`s under oath, Nancy, and it has legal significance whether it`s under oath or not, so the judge is just being careful, and I`m wondering why -- what it is she has to do back at the jail that`s so important that she doesn`t want to come to these hearings anyway.

GRACE: To Dr. Daniel Spitz, a medical examiner joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan. He`s a forensic pathologist, a leader in his field. His father, Dr. Werner Spitz, performed the second autopsy on little Caylee.

Dr. Spitz, thank you for being with us. Tell me, when you are examining nothing but skeleton, that is the extent of the autopsy, how long does it take and why would you have to wait on tissue results, toxicology results before the burial of the body?

DR DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you know, every skeleton is not the same. Some skeletons may take us a less amount of time to examine than others. This is a case where you`re going to be very careful going through every bone, looking for any signs of trauma to any areas of the skeleton including all areas of the skull or ribs or anything that could give you a clue as to -- as to the nature of the child`s death.

You`re obviously going to want to photograph everything, so it does take a long time, oftentimes longer than doing an exam -- a typical autopsy that forensic pathologists do. You want to wait for the toxicology. You really don`t need to wait for it before the burial can take place.

I`m not exactly sure.

GRACE: Exactly.

SPITZ: I`m not exactly sure why the burial can`t take place. Maybe there are other experts that the family wants to examine the remains. There are -- there are anthropologists involved in the case and maybe that person hasn`t had a chance to examine the remains.

GRACE: Dr. Spitz, when you are performing an autopsy on skeletonized remains, do you actually, with the bare hand, feel the bones to determine if there are any nicks, scrapes, cuts, knife wounds and bullet wounds and breakages to the bones?

SPITZ: You`re going to -- you`re going to do a very detailed exam. And.

GRACE: What does that entail?

SPITZ: Well, that it entails a naked eye exam of all of the bones. You`re going to want to x-ray all the bones. You`re going to want to photograph the bones. You want to -- going to want to recreate the skeleton to see what, if any, bones are missing so that you know if you have a complete skeleton or whether some bones are no longer present, look for evidence .

GRACE: When you say -- you mean.

SPITZ: . of animal activity, anything that can help you determine how this child died.

GRACE: You mean lay the bones out as if they were still a person?

SPITZ: Exactly. Lay the bones out in the anatomic position so that you know which bones are not present.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sherry in Illinois. Hi, sherry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a couple of quick questions and a quick comment for you. My question is about the Anthonys` possible immunity deal. I was just wondering if they -- they`ve ever found or want to find out why they`re seeking immunity and is it maybe possibly that they had some kind of idea about the body being found or -- you know, covering something because to me it was like sort of coincidental that they were in California when all of this came down and, you know, all that.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who initially put up the bond to let the tot mom out of jail and later came off the bond, you`ve spent time in the home. You`ve spoken to all of the family. What do you think?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, I don`t think that Cindy and George had any sinister ideas as to why they were in California. I think that was a coincidence. They claimed they were out here for a sighting. They also had to do the Larry king show.

As far as being around Casey while she was at the home, basically, we nicknamed her the cruise director. She was basically just in a separate parallel universe. She never had any thoughts. Never mentioned Caylee. Never shed a tear for Caylee, never brought up Caylee in conversations the whole nine or 10 days that we were there.

GRACE: Are you talking about the tot mom or Cindy Anthony?

PADILLA: Casey. I`m talking about Casey.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: Cindy was always rather in a concerned mode. I think sometimes Cindy was concerned that things would get out of hand, in other words, something would happen that she didn`t know about and she`d get upset because somebody hadn`t brought it to her attention or somebody hadn`t checked with her and things of that nature.

I think one of the things that has entered lately and there`s a lot of gossip and rumor about it. I know that it should be brought up here. There was a Lifetime offer that has kind of been put on hold right now. Unless the Anthonys are able to get some kind of immunity, I don`t think Lifetime wants to go through with their deal.

GRACE: Of course, Lifetime is denying that.

PADILLA: Correct.

GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst and director of Cold Case Squad, Pine Lake P.D.

Sheryl, the Anthonys` attorney is requesting information from EquuSearch that also searched for the body.

What do you think?

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAT, PINE LAKE POLICE DEPT.: I think he wants to know maybe why Tim Miller was in a certain area, how he came to, you know, pinpoint where they were searching. But, you know, for Tim Miller, he`s done 5,000 searches. He had the pings from the cell phone.

He set a perimeter based on the house and where the car was found. It was a simple, you know, deduction on his part.

GRACE: And also, let me ask you this, the state is very concerned that images of little Caylee`s remains are going to be leaked.

MCCOLLUM: Sure.

GRACE: But anybody from the guy that does the xeroxing to the messenger person to a clerk in the courthouse, anybody can leak these photos.

MCCOLLUM: Anybody can leak them. And one point that he made today was -- he -- you know, found it insulting that it would come at him, but the ME and the FBI and the state, they`re in the same boat.

They don`t want these pictures out because they don`t want to have anything backfire against the case they`re building against this mother.

GRACE: Joining us right now is John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies.` How do you set up a secure Web site? I mean, you can`t -- because somebody has even hacked into the FBI and the CIA computer database before.

So how do you get a secure Web site so these images of little Caylee don`t show up at the supermarket counter?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Look, right from the beginning, you know, computer security 101, online and security is an oxymoron. It can`t happen and you just mentioned a lot of reasons.

When you put something online you create the risks and the only thing you have left to do at that point is to mitigate the risks -- and mitigate threats by lowering that risk. So here`s what you need to do. You need to put that server -- and they`re talking about a database, they actually have to have a secure serve sitting behind the fire wall and then once you get into that secure network, it`s got to be supplemented with like an RSA token for two factors (INAUDIBLE).

On top of that you need intrusion detection systems that are actually interactive so it can shut down ports in case somebody starts to hack.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for George and Cindy Anthony said the couple could not finalize memorial service and funeral dates for Caylee until Baez and his defense team have completed their second autopsy.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: We learned now that that second autopsy that we`ve been waiting for happened -- actually happened about five days ago.

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST TOT MOM DEFENSE EXPERT: We have to look at our original autopsy, photo x-ray to compare.

GRACE: But, Dr. Henry Lee, to compare x-rays does not require that this child`s skeleton sit in a cardboard box in a funeral home.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The person who does the second autopsy should take small samples so they can do their own tests. But after those samples are taken, I don`t -- I don`t know of a reasonable reason to hold up the burial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: No move whatsoever to lay this child to rest.

Out to the lines, Dotty in North Carolina. Hi, Dotty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering back to the money that`s been paid on -- for the pictures. Did the family -- were they requested to give these pictures and were -- did they receive any money?

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance.

Natisha, you know, we have victim`s families on all the time. We have never, to my knowledge, paid a licensing fee.

Explain to me who got all that money? We know over $200,000 have been paid, but to whom?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, allegedly $200,000 was paid to ABC News. Allegedly Jose Baez was trying to set up a $500,000.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Did you say paid to ABC News? Is that what you just said?

LANCE: I`m sorry. Paid from ABC News.

GRACE: To who? That`s what I`m asking. I`m asking to whom.

LANCE: Well, we don`t know who the exchange was with, but allegedly it went to Jose Baez and some of this money was allegedly used for Casey`s defense fund. Now also allegedly, Jose Baez was trying to get a $500,000 interview with Casey Anthony.

And then there was also the $6500 that was paid to Larry Garrett and the former spokesperson for the Anthony family from NBC News. And there was also allegedly a $5,000 licensing fee from NBC News.

GRACE: To Rory O`Neill, standing there outside the funeral home where little Caylee`s remains sit alone in a cardboard box.

Rory, where were George, Cindy and Lee Anthony today?

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: They were not in the courtroom. Of course, Casey was not expected to be in the courtroom either, so no members of the Anthony family were in the courtroom, George, Cindy or Lee. None of them were there.

GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Nikki Pierce, they`re only 20 minutes away? Their home is about 20 minutes from the courthouse?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It`s a 20 -- about a 20 to 30- minute drive. They -- probably could have made it.

It`s a good question, but they also did not visit her in the jail either over the holidays. So it remains to be seen if they`re going to visit but they didn`t show up today.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman.

You know, Eleanor, very often in court -- well, always in court, when I`d be trying somebody that was coming over from the jailhouse, their family would always be there because it`s a chance for them to see their loved one.

Sometimes, you know, they`re not supposed to, the sheriffs would let them embrace. They can talk -- you see where the tot mom is sitting, there`s typically a bar, a rail behind her separating the defendant and the lawyers from spectators. They can sit just on the other side of that rail and talk to them, maybe hold their hands.

I`m very surprised they were not in court today.

DIXON: I`m surprised they weren`t, too. And that`s another way they can present their image to the public and get that across. I`m surprised the defense attorneys didn`t have them there. And you know, as a prosecutor, I always have my victim`s family sitting right behind me.

GRACE: Absolutely.

And Mickey Sherman, that is an opportunity, even though it`s not correct protocol whenever the jury wasn`t there, we were -- during courthouse, courtroom breaks I would never oppose the defendant`s family from getting to talk to them, embrace them, be with them for just a few moments because not to help the defendant, but because I felt sorry for their family.

SHERMAN: But that`s the conventional case. This is far from a conventional case. First of all, this is not an important day in legal proceedings.

GRACE: I`m not asking you about that.

SHERMAN: No.

GRACE: I`m asking you about why the victim`s family was not in the courtroom?

SHERMAN: Because there was nothing legally significant happening and more importantly why should they have to go through the gauntlet.

GRACE: You know why you said that.

SHERMAN: . of incredibly -- of incredibly very difficult and aggressive reporters from all over the world making them and screaming at them. They don`t want to (INAUDIBLE) themselves that misery.

GRACE: That`s a good point. That`s actually a very good point.

SHERMAN: That`s why you have me on TV.

GRACE: What about it, Peter?

ODOM: As a defense attorney I would try and protect my client from that and try to protect my client`s family from that as Mickey said.

GRACE: I don`t know, though, Bethany, if this were the only time I could get to see my daughter, I would be there.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I know.

GRACE: And so I`m just wondering if -- if there is a shift in the Anthonys` support of her.

MARSHALL: Well, I think two things could have happened. Since the little girl went missing George and Cindy has -- Cindy have not shown a fondness for reality. I mean the reality of what happened to the little girl that the body could be out there, that their daughter could be a murderer.

And then I think the other thing is they`ve externalized their blame on to the whole court system and maybe hating the judge, the attorneys, the whole process instead of holding their daughter responsible.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Dottie in North Carolina. Hi, Dottie. Oh, excuse me, it`s Rose in North Carolina, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, dear. First of all, I want to see those beautiful babies of yours, when they`re old enough to realize what you do and what you stand for they`re going to be so proud.

GRACE: You know what I`ve got right here with me? Right here? I have their little picture. I miss them sometimes when I come to work.

Go ahead, what`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. A few months ago there was some memo sent out about how -- the possibility that she could have accidentally died of an accidental overdose of sedatives. Did that come from the defense and if it did where did they get such an idea?

GRACE: It absolutely did come from the defense because if you will remember, Leonard Padilla, there was a death penalty expert on this case and he wrote a memo to the state about why they should not seek death penalty and he said this may have been an accidental overdose of sedatives.

Now, in my mind, you don`t give a 2-year-old child chloroform under any circumstances. But where did that theory come from originally, Leonard?

PADILLA: Well, a lot of people had that theory. I myself still cling to it because I think that it was an accidental overdosing of chloroform. But (INAUDIBLE), I think, was turning out in Miami.

GRACE: Accidental, so she looked up neck breaking on Google. All right. Whatever. You`re entitled to your opinion.

PADILLA: I -- thank you. Hey.

GRACE: That`s not an accident. Neck breaking.

PADILLA: OK. Let me, let me throw something else on here. Hoover on the 8th of November was out at Texas Equusearch and in front of several people actually filed a search directive, in other words, it`s a form they fill out saying that the body was actually where it was located.

I don`t know whatever happened to that. I do know that people in law enforcement are trying to track it down.

GRACE: OK. You didn`t answer the question. We`re going to pick it up when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: I don`t care what I have to do. When I told them I would lie and steal and do whatever by any means to get her back, that`s exactly how I feel. It`s the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that your testimony will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

ANTHONY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Yvonne in Florida. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, when Lee -- when Lee Anthony refused to provide some kind of DNA evidence for the police recently, what kind of DNA evidence was it? Was it, was it fingerprints or DNA or what?

GRACE: It was DNA. It was a buccal or oral swab. Very simple. Looks like a Q-tip along the inside of your mouth. He has given fingerprints in the past. This is pursuant to a subpoena. So I assume that it`s finally been done.

Emily, West Virginia. Hi, Emily.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Nancy. Hello, friend.

GRACE: Hello, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question about Leonard Padilla.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. He spoke the last couple of days saying that the -- I think Hoover, the private investigator.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . told him that the other private investigator told him that, you know.

GRACE: He knew where the body was, yes.

GRACE: So why did he not alert the authorities about that?

GRACE: Why didn`t Padilla call the lawyer -- call the authorities?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me?

GRACE: Are you asking why didn`t Padilla call police?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: He did. He did call police. He called Nick Savage, correct, Padilla?

PADILLA: Absolutely. Within 10 minutes of Hoover explaining to me what had -- what he had.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: . I called Savage, left a message and called him back in the morning.

GRACE: Everyone, as we go to our good night, let`s stop and remember Army, excuse me, Navy Petty Officer Daniel Verbeke, 25, Exxon, Pennsylvania, died at home after being wounded in Iraq.

Awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement medal. An avid Philly fan. Loved baseball, bowling, hip-hop, classic rock. Leaves behind father Robert and mother Melanie, stepmother Catherine, sister Sarah, daughter Savannah.

Daniel Verbeke, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and tonight a special good night from Atlanta friends of the show, Ronnie and Mikel.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 08:12:36 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Investigators Said to Believe Caylee Intentionally Murdered

Aired January 9, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed those of Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, the skull covered in light-colored hair, hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Bombshell. Inside the investigation, just emerging as we go to air, stunning report -- no accident! Repeat, no accident. Tot mom Casey Anthony intentionally murders little Caylee and acted completely alone. Police investigators who once bought into the accident theory now convinced it`s murder one. Investigators say Caylee`s body at least two days inside tot mom`s car trunk before being dumped.

Tonight, we learn investigators pinpoint the exact day of murder as June 16. The source also confirms duct tape wrapped specifically across little Caylee`s mouth -- specifically across the mouth. And we discover part of the state`s evidence is a positive match between hair on the skull to Caylee`s hair in tot mom`s trunk.

Lawyers for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony take to the airwaves, trying to explain why Caylee`s remains still all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, no funeral date in sight, and explaining why George and Cindy Anthony want immunity.

Apparently, being dragged into court yesterday and handcuffed, her daughter`s remains in a cardboard box and her entire family under suspicion has not affected the tot mom`s appetite. With donations from across the country pouring into her jail account, she`s ordering up even more treats and beauty supplies for herself behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: She loves that child.

I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- she has been a victim, just as much as Caylee has.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources tell an Orlando CNN affiliate that authorities have overwhelming evidence showing tot mom Casey Anthony intentionally killed her daughter, Caylee. The source says investigators have now established a timeline of Caylee`s death that goes back to June, based on the reports from a botanist and entomologist about the remains site.

CINDY ANTHONY: I saw rotten whatever it was (INAUDIBLE) decomposing in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The station also reports that test results conducted on Anthony`s car show little Caylee spent at least two days in the trunk before she was left at the remains site. Not only that, but sources say hair found in the trunk matches hair taken from Caylee`s remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Add all of this to evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of the child`s skull, high levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car, and sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news, a stunning report just emerging from inside the police investigation, overwhelming evidence tot mom Casey Anthony acting alone in little Caylee`s death. And it was murder one, no accident. Repeat, no accident, intentional homicide of a 2-year-old little girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Just tell her that I love her and that I miss her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orlando CNN affiliate is reporting that sources close to the Anthony case say there is overwhelming evidence showing Caylee was intentionally killed by her mother, Casey Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here if you want her to bring the "little snothead." I`m assuming the "little snothead" to be who?

ANTHONY RUSCIANO, CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: The child.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources say hair taken from the tot mom`s car trunk matches hair from Caylee`s remains and evidence from Oak Ridge lab suggests little Caylee spent at least two days in the trunk before being dumped.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

That distinct odor (INAUDIBLE) something you never forget. That distinct odor, I -- I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources tell the station that forensic reports from the botanist and entomologist have helped investigators establish a timeframe of death for Caylee that dates back to June.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That Mommy loves her very much and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo! Tonight, a stunning report emerges from inside the police investigation, putting a lot of doubts at rest, the accident theory totally rejected and the theory that the tot mom had an accomplice out the window.

Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the very latest, Nancy, is the fact that Jessica D`Onofrio from WKMG-TV channel 6 produced a report that said entomologists and botanists have discovered that little Caylee Anthony had been lying in those woods since at least June 18th. They believe that with their investigation, their own investigation, and that the grass growing up through some of the remains, that she was killed on June 16th, which was a Monday, and dumped on Wednesday, June 18th, Nancy.

GRACE: And joining us right now, the person to break -- the reporter to break this story, Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, thank you for being with us. Explain to me this detailed report you`re learning about from inside the police investigation that Mark Williams is referring to.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, we now know a timeframe of death, Nancy. What wound up happening is that the forensic entomologists and the forensic botanists that were brought into this case to analyze the terrain and the bug life around where the body was found -- they`ve returned in their reports now.

Now what we can see is that they have narrowed down a timeframe of death, not an exact date, but a timeframe of death to June, which directly corresponds with what investigators have been saying for quite some time now. They know that Caylee was last seen on or around June 16th. The Oak Ridge National Laboratory confirms that they have test results that show that the body was in the trunk of Casey`s car for about two days. And then investigators believe after that two days, it was dumped down the street from the Anthony home.

So now we have a timeframe of death here directly corresponding to what investigators thought, that the child was murdered around that time and has been at that dump site ever since June. We also have...

GRACE: Hold on. According to this inside report, it says that the body is believed to have been dumped on June 18 and that...

D`ONOFRIO: Excuse me. Yes, June 18.

GRACE: Yes, which means that we also know it confirms the body was in the trunk for two days, according to this report, which pinpoints the time of death as June 16, the day of June 16 -- not a timeframe, not a month, not a week, June 16.

D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely, Nancy. But when you talk to forensic entomologists and when you talk to forensic botanists, what they specialize in in this kind of case is a timeframe.

GRACE: Correct.

D`ONOFRIO: They`ll always correct the reporter and say, We can only pinpoint a timeframe. But you`re absolutely right.

GRACE: And also, after going over your information, Jessica D`Onofrio -- Jessica joining us from WKMG -- I also noticed that it said the duct tape was over the child`s mouth. And there`s been a lot of speculation about where was the duct tape? Was it wrapped around to conceal her identity? A whole lot of theories about the duct tape. Now we are confirming, according to this report, it was specifically placed over little Caylee`s mouth. Yes, no?

D`ONOFRIO: Yes.

GRACE: What else can you tell us, Jessica?

D`ONOFRIO: I can tell you that, you know, when they made a positive ID on the body, they used the skeletonized remains to make that positive ID on Caylee. They used her bones. But they also now have run tests on the hair that was found at the dump site near the skeleton there, and they have now been able to confirm that the hair found at that dump site was the hair found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. So what it means is that investigators can now directly place Caylee`s body in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.

GRACE: And not only that -- to Dr. Michael Arnall -- we`re showing right now a post-mortem root band. Where hair originates from a body already in decomposition, a dark band often appears there near the root of the hair. That hair is now confirmed, according to this report, as being little Caylee`s.

Dr. Arnall, explain to me how the death band works. How does that appear? Why does that appear on the deceased`s hair?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I don`t know the specific biologic changes, but it`s thought to be associated with where the hair meets the surface of the skin and the certain biologic changes that occur in the skin, the decomposition, at that -- at that level merge into the hair. And you see that band preserved on the hair -- the hair shaft itself.

GRACE: And apparently -- to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the very beginning -- all of this is not affecting the tot mom`s appetite. She is getting donations from all over the country into her jail account?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. She had donations for $20 each from at least Kentucky and also other parts of Florida. They`re coming in from all over the country. Now, also, Casey had a commissary order recently. She was ordering chili, which we also know to be one of Caylee`s favorite foods. She also ordered some shampoo, conditioner, Chapstick, cocoa butter lotion...

GRACE: Yes.

LANCE: ... a security (ph) pen. She also had granola bars, hot chips, barbecue corn chips. So she`s continuing to eat, most definitely.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Randy Kessler, Joe Episcopo. Joe, you know, that money she`s getting from across the country could go toward her daughter`s funeral. Instead, she`s ordering cocoa butter to slather on her body behind bars.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this evidence doesn`t prove how the girl was killed. It`s not conclusive. It just shows that the body was disposed of.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives believe Casey took the actions that led to her daughter`s death on June 16th, which corresponds to the June timeframe of death. And the evidence against Casey continues to mount. Investigators believe Casey dumped her daughter`s body down the street from the Anthony family home around June 18th. According to test results conducted on the trunk of Casey`s car by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the body spent at least two days there before it was dumped. Also found in that trunk, a hair which showed signs of decomposition.

Now sources say that hair matches hair taken from Caylee`s remains at the dump site. Add all of this to evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of the child`s skull, high levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car and cell phone pings that place her near the crime scene during those days in June, and sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A late-breaking and stunning development, sources leaking from inside the police investigate investigation confirm even the investigators who had once clung to the hope that this little girl died by accident and was then part of a cover-up of the death now are convinced of murder one and also that the tot mom acted completely alone.

Let`s go out to the lawyers. Gloria Allred, victims` rights advocate, family law attorney joining us out of LA, Randy Kessler, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta, and Joe Episcopo, defense attorney out of the Florida jurisdiction.

To Gloria Allred, weigh in. Uh-oh. Gloria`s satellite down. To Randy Kessler. Weigh in.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think the biggest problem the prosecution may have is a sympathetic jury. It takes a unanimous verdict to convict. And you know what? And these donations are coming in nationwide, $20 here, $20 there. I think that this new development may be worse for the prosecution because we all want to humanize her. She doesn`t look like a killer, and we want to think maybe it was a accident.

Well, all of a sudden, whoever did this is a demon. Whoever put tape across her mouth, suffocated her, whatever they did, is a demon, and the jury may be sympathetic, or one person on the jury may be sympathetic. That`s a problem for the prosecution.

GRACE: Hold on. Randy, what you just said doesn`t make any sense.

KESSLER: OK.

GRACE: How could all of this evidence hurt the prosecution?

KESSLER: This is how it could hurt the prosecution. They know that she`s dead. They know that there`s been a murder. What they have to do is tie it to Casey. Now, the problem is we want to humanize her as a human being. We think she looks normal. She looks decent and...

GRACE: But how does that hurt the prosecution?

KESSLER: Because now they have to prove that she`s a demon and it looks like an even more evil person...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Kessler, Kessler...

KESSLER: Yes?

GRACE: I think one crime scene photo of a tiny skull whose mouth is covered in duct tape, with Caylee`s hair attached, will convince the jury of the identity or the character of the killer.

KESSLER: Of the killer, that`s right. But is this the killer? Why would people across the country be donating money to her, giving her money to buy products in jail if some people out there didn`t have some hope that she was innocent? And all it takes is one on the jury.

GRACE: Joining me right now is Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist at University of Florida. Jason, thank you for being with us. This report that we have just gotten, has just been leaked out the police department -- Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG has broken it -- says that growth, biological growth, was coming up through the skeleton, and from that growth and from insects, they can determine how long the body had been lying there. Explain.

JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST: Well, that`s correct. And just as Jessica was saying earlier, you can in these reports show a date, like June 18th. But ultimately, you still have a timeframe. And in order to understand that, you kind of have to understand the way entomologists construct their report.

Insects grow by accumulating heat in the environment. On hot days, they grow quicker. On cold days, they grow slower. So much like on your utility bill, if you look at it, your utility will often break your utility bill down into heating days and cooling days. Well, entomologists do the same thing, and they accumulate heat units each and every day that this insect has been alive. So if you`re totaling numbers, you do come back to a specific day.

That`s kind of an artifact of the report writing. That`s where your numbers total up. And those numbers kind of indicate an approximate age of the insects.

And then what the entomologist has to do is calculate all the variables that may be present. For instance, we don`t know the exact temperatures on the remains at that crime scene. We know temperatures nearby from weather stations, radio stations and TV stations. And also, you have to understand that when these insects deposit their young, they deposit hundreds at a time. It`s not uncommon for a female fly to deposit a couple hundred eggs. And just like a litter of puppies or litter of kittens, some of these larvae will outgrow others. So you have the biological variation in there, as well.

So this exact day that comes back on this report is kind of an artifact of the way insect growth is tabulated, and then it`s up to the entomologist to try to decide what is an acceptable timeframe for all of these variables.

GRACE: To Gloria Allred, her satellite is back up, joining us from LA. Gloria, thanks for being with us. Gloria...

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Thank you.

GRACE: ... you`ve seen this type of evidence, many, many times, as have I -- all of us, actually. And to everybody watching tonight, the lawyers that are speaking are not talking heads. They`re all practicing lawyers. We`ve all practiced law for many, many years and have all tried cases.

Gloria, when you hear a forensic entomologist talk, it makes me wonder. I remember watching my mom, who was an accountant, look down long columns of numbers, and all of a sudden say, Oh! And she`ll find one number that she knows doesn`t fit, like you or I reading pages and pages of a faxed scenario. We can analyze it legally. I guess it`s the way entomologists work. They can look at this fact scenario and determine how long that body had been there.

ALLRED: Yes, but also, of course, it`s going to be a battle of the experts, Nancy. And the defense will have their entomologists and they will have their forensic botanist, and of course, the prosecution will have those. And we`ll have to see who is believed. That`s what it`s going to be all about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While we may never know a cause of death, sources say Casey will be convicted based on extremely strong evidence. And investigators who may have believed at the outset of the case that this could have been an accident have completely changed their minds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bottom line is, folks, no child should have to go through this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, breaking news. Jessica D`Onofrio from WKMG has gotten a source inside the police department that says there was no accident, the tot mom acted intentionally and acted alone. At the same time, the attorneys for grandparents Cindy and George Anthony take to the air waves, trying to explain their no-show in court, why they haven`t been to the jailhouse since October.

Out to Jessica D`Onofrio. What do we know about their absence in court?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, basically, they don`t want to bring the circus to town. A lot of times, they don`t want to come and visit Casey in jail, we haven`t seen them coming to visit the jail, because they don`t want to create that circus, that media circus, as they call it in front of the jail. And plus, yesterday, when Casey was brought in to court, she was brought in to court at the last minute. So George and Cindy weren`t there. They were not there at the time. And she was ordered to appear in front of Judge Strickland, and they got her there within a half hour.

GRACE: Here is the grandparents` attorney taking to the airwaves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD CONWAY, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Some of the best investigators in Orange County are working and doing their job well. And I`m going to do my job well. And for me to allow my clients to go into a room with the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office without protections that ensure that they can say what they need to say without worrying about further ramifications would be incompetence my part, and I`m not going do that.

I`m not concerned that the professionals, meaning the lawyers or the experts, would do that, but the middle people. You know, there`s a great temptation to sell these photographs because there`s no doubt that they would be worth a lot of money to, say, "The National Enquirer" or "The Globe." I think Judge Strickland`s order yesterday is a very good order. It`s a great compromise, and it enables everybody that`s legally entitled and needs to see the photographs to do so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Brad Conway, on the "Today" show. He`s talking about the judge`s ruling on the autopsy, as well as why they have not been to the courtroom.

What about it? To you, Gloria Allred. Shouldn`t the parents be there for her?

ALLRED: Well, I think they would want to be. But apparently, they didn`t have enough notice that she was coming in yesterday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Sources close to the Casey Anthony case say investigators have overwhelming evidence that there`s no question Casey killed her three-year-old daughter Caylee and that she did it on purpose. Local 6 has now uncovered new information that investigators now have a time frame of death that dates back to June.

This, according to reports returned by forensic botanists and entomologies brought in to analyze the terrain and insects growth where the child`s body was found. Sources say there were plants growing up through the small skeleton and bug evidence was also recovered. Both helped scientists come to their conclusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just took the body right around the corner there from the house, when her dad almost found it. Law enforcement thinks it was on the 18th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first got the tot mom out from behind bars, came off that bond.

Padilla, all along you`ve been saying accident. What do you think now?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: You can`t argue against Jessica`s sources. They`ve proved --

GRACE: So what`s your theory?

PADILLA: She taped her mouth shut and asphyxiated her.

GRACE: Well, just taping the mouth shut does not lead to murder --

PADILLA: Well, if she gave her chloroform first, I mean. Put her out with chloroform, then asphyxiated her.

GRACE: OK, Leonard, you have been in the home, you have been around the family, what is your version of what went down? Now that we know that police are going with murder one, and she is the sole actor.

PADILLA: She got in a big fight with her mom. Actually her mom -- because of the checks that she had taken, or the money that she had taken out of Cindy`s mom`s account. Cindy, basically was throttling her. She grabbed her child, ran out of there the night of the 15th, around midnight. And shortly thereafter, she caused her child -- the death that the law enforcement is saying took place.

Obviously, I have to reverse myself, once again on the fact that I thought that it was accidental. And then on the 18th, she packaged the body. We know that the Tennessee people had said it was 2.6 days of decomposition.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: So you can work backwards from when she was at the house. I thought that she had put the body in the package, in the trunk, until the 24th when George almost worked his way around to the trunk. But now law enforcement is saying definitely because of the entomologist and the botanist that the body was dumped there.

GRACE: You know, Leonard, it`s amazing the way that the entomologists can pinpoint almost down to the day.

PADILLA: Well there, is something else. There is something else. They find terpenes in that car anywhere in the trunk, that`s going to lead them to put the car right at the scene.

GRACE: For anybody that doesn`t understand -- know what a terpene is, please explain that.

PADILLA: Well, it`s a residue or a -- that`s given off by certain Florida area and also available in other areas but if they find terpenes, that means that the car wasn`t just up on the roads. It was down in the forest or the weeds or close by.

So it`s a situation where there`s no doubt they already know if they have them or they don`t have them. But if they have them that puts the car real close to the scene, rather than just out on the road. So you know, they`re - they`re - and the thing about it is, Nancy, like this past weekend when the Anthony attorney and Jose Baez met, and had an in-depth discussion as to how to handle what was coming down the road, I think only proves why the Anthonys didn`t show up in court. They were strategizing as to how do we handle these things.

GRACE: Out to Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing."

We know that all of this evidence is coming forward. The tot mom had to know this was coming down. Yet she is not concerned about her daughter`s remains sitting in a cardboard box. She`s not concerned about being dragged into court in handcuffs, putting her whole family under suspicion, her parents, her brother. She`s busy ordering up treats and beauty products for herself. Explain.

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think she`s disconnected, totally from reality. She`s watching this as if she`s in a reality series. Not as if it`s her own child and her own life and we see the narcissism in having cocoa butter and really carrying about what she looks like and smiling for the camera. There is such a huge disconnect.

I think that your last guest really showed us the beginning of what happened with the relationship between the mother, Cindy, and Casey. There was a fight. She was revenge -- she was using revenge. She was going to take that little girl away from her grandma, who loved that little girl, but really didn`t take very good care of her, because she let Casey be the mother.

GRACE: Back to Jessica d`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the story.

Jessica, do they have any motive yet attached to the murder?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, WKMG: Well, Nancy, they`ve been working on that for months. I mean you have to go back and look at the discovery here and specifically look at her ex-boyfriend, Tony Lazaro`s statements, that he has made to authorities. He specifically came out and said, I am not interested -- I was never interested in having female children. I wanted to have male children. All of that points to motive. And I can assure you that is going to be, big part of this case when they`re trying to pin down a motive.

And sure, part of it could also be what your last guest was saying. The hatred or the anger in that family that Casey had for her mother. We do have discovery coming out, where George has even said on taped FBI interviews, that there was always an animosity between the two. And that when Caylee was born, it was Cindy who picked up Caylee . And put her in her own arms first.

GRACE: You know back to the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Randy Kessler, Joe Episcopo.

You know, Gloria, I don`t understand that hatred. I wasn`t the first one to get to hold the twins. I couldn`t. I had just had surgery. I saw them. I got to kiss their forehead and they went to intensive care. All I wanted was for them to live and to survive. But the state doesn`t have to prove motive, Gloria. It doesn`t matter what the motive is.

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true. But of course motive and opportunity help to identify the perpetrator of a crime. You and millions, and most mothers, would love your babies and want to be protective of them and always be protective of them. But there are certain young women who -- who don`t feel that way and are not ready for the responsibility.

GRACE: What about it, Joe Episcopo? Does the state need motive? Will this act be too heinous for a jury to believe a mother to do it?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You can never require the state to prove a motive because then you could never prove senseless killings. But motive, accident, it doesn`t matter. She committed aggravated child abuse the way she took care of this child. And all they have to do is prove that resulting in a death, you`ve got first-degree murder. Why agonize over premeditation when you have a much easier way to prove the case?

GRACE: Well, maybe because, Randy Kessler, the death penalty is back on the table.

RANDY KESSLER, ATTORNEY: That`s true.

EPISCOPO: Oh, no, no.

KESSLER: Florida`s executed more people than just about any other state since Georgia versus Gregg. But Nancy, your comments and Mr. Padilla comments illustrate my point, which is, it is easier to think maybe it was an accident. Nobody wants to believe that the mother of the child would caused the death.

GRACE: I never thought it was accident.

KESSLER: But not you. Well, you`re a prosecutor, Nancy, and you`re strong and you know what happens and knows that there are bad people, but average juror is the average American. Mr. Padilla, who knew the people, and he`s been closer to the case than any of the jurors will be, he actually thought it was an accident. So the prosecution has to prove -- and they`ve got the burden of proof. And that`s what we go back to always, they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and they`ve got to convince all 12 jurors and this is something that`s harder to prove, that it was such a monstrosity, as opposed to maybe it was a accident and a cover-up. Which might have been easier to prove for the prosecution.

GRACE: Out to Tom Shamshak.

Tom, reportedly sources inside of the investigation say there`s overwhelming evidence against the tot mom. What does this mean to you, as a former investigator?

TOM SHAMSHAK, FMR. POLICE CHIEF, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: To me that means that there is ample evidence from the mother of the child, at the crime scene. Her fingerprints, for instance, could be on the duct tape. There could be hair that was transferred, that`s there at scene. And there could be other implements that are there. There could be a weapon of opportunity. Or some other instrument that came from the home that places that child with the mother at there -- at the two crime scenes. One, in the back of the car where the decompositional incident occurred. And the second, placing the child there in the woods.

I don`t think that we all know precisely what kind of evidence on, physical evidence, the government has. There`s a lot of hold-back evidence here, Nancy.

GRACE: Right.

And out to Doctor Arnall.

Dr. Arnall, will the skeleton alone help determine the date of death? Or do they need this entomologist and botanist?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The skeleton won`t do it, in and of itself. They need the entomologist, they need the botanist. But remember, they`ve got other types of evidence, cell phone evidence. They`re going to do time lines on each one the characters in this story, and where those time lines intersect. They`re going to use all of that information to determine time of death.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. But at your request, new photos of the twins. I`ll put them on the web tonight. I hope you like them. Here is Lindsay (ph) wrapping Christmas presents. She now likes to wear a hat and sunglasses all of the time. This was Christmas morning breakfast. And that was Christmas Eve. I took them around the neighborhood looking at Christmas lights. More breakfast. And Christmas morning!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony was hauled into court today, after a judge ruled Anthony must show up in person to wave her right to appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony, if you can, raise your right hand if you would.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm. This matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth so help you god?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will ask you a few questions. First of all, tell me your name.

ANTHONY: Casey Ann Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are here to day on several motions filed by the state and by your attorney. One of the motions is for (INAUDIBLE) autopsy pictures (INAUDIBLE) motion was done in your absence. You`re aware of that, right?

ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I understand that Mr. Baez spoke to you sometime today or in court today about waiving your appearance here and about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?

ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you in fact give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?

ANTHONY: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Mark Williams with WMDB News Talk 1150.

In court, it was addressed as to how the defense experts could view all the state`s evidence, all the photos, the autopsy photos, the works, the video, on a secure website. But now we are getting estimates from tabloid insiders that photos of little Caylee `s remains could go starting at $50,000. That better be some secure website.

(CROSS TALK)

MARK WILLIAMS, REPORTER, WMDB NEWS TALK 1150: It just makes my head spin whenever I hear figures like that. You know this website that they want to set up, this very secure website, is very similar in nature to one run by the Orange County medical examiner. It`s at least one password protected. You probably need to get two to get in. And I`ll tell you what, Nancy, if any of those 883 photographs ever got out, tens of thousands of dollars -- what would the market bear on something like that? Again, I`m just boggled by any prices that would come out.

GRACE: And what`s amazing to me is little Caylee`s remains are still sitting there in a cardboard box, in a funeral home with nothing but a security push pad, that probably says one, two, three, four security code on the back of the funeral home.

WILLIAMS: Uh-huh. And you know what`s interesting, Nancy, is I have found out that this funeral home that she`s at, the Robert Bryant Funeral Home, of the 300 block of Orange Avenue, used to be a toy store back in the `50s. Very ironic.

GRACE: Yes, it is.

Back to Jessica d`Onofrio quickly, from WKMG, who broke this story.

A stunning look inside the investigation, the theory the state is going to put out at trial. Jessica, you`ve been working with the police for some time. Do you have any doubts about your source?

D`ONOFRIO: Oh, no, not at all. And this isn`t coming from one source, Nancy. It`s always coming from more than one source when I report my information. But I mean what I`m hearing are the words, "overwhelming". I`m hearing, "strong evidence". And I`m hearing that when you look at all of this, in its totality, the forensic evidence, and the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, you put it all together, it points straight to Casey acting alone. And that this was done on purpose, and not by accident.

GRACE: I notice you are referring to her on a first-name basis. When did you develop that friendship?

D`ONOFRIO: Casey?

GRACE: Yes. Defendant Anthony, yes.

D`ONOFRIO: I have never personally spoken to Casey Anthony. I always refer her -- refer to her as Casey. But I have never formed any kind of relationship with her at all.

GRACE: Jessica, what do you know about the possibility of an immunity deal for the grandparents? And is it still floating around that Lee Anthony may somehow be charged as an accomplice after the fact?

D`ONOFRIO: What I`m hearing from everyone I speak to, Nancy, is that there are -- there are going to be no charges brought against anyone in the Anthony family. Not Lee, not Cindy, not George. They will not be prosecuted for obstruction of justice, absolutely nothing.

GRACE: You know, to the lawyers, Allred, Kessler, Episcopo; starting with Gloria Allred.

Gloria, anything that they may have done, which I fully believe that they may have done some effort, but I just don`t believe it was with intent to cover-up. Maybe they were misled by the tot mom, but I just find it very difficult to -- to assume mal-intent on the Anthony family.

ALLRED: Well, yes, I agree with you, Nancy. In addition, though, their attorneys that - the attorneys for the grandparents are being very cautious. And, of course, asking for immunity before they talk to the FBI, before they talk to the sheriffs, just in case they might say something that would be prosecutable.

GRACE: And to Kessler and Episcopo. Kessler out of Atlanta, Episcopo in Tampa.

Joe Episcopo, the lawyer keeps saying, when they going, when he`s asked, why are you seeking immunity? He seems to suggest that the Anthonys don`t know anything about it. Well, I would be a bad lawyer. I would be derelict if I didn`t. Clients have to know, when you make a move such as asking for immunity.

EPISCOPO: Well, you want to kind of going in there with that blanket immunity in case they throw a question at you that you weren`t expecting. And you may, like Gloria said, answer it the wrong way. You only have two choices. Immunity, or taking the Fifth Amendment. To make them talk, they have got to give them immunity so they won`t rely on the Fifth Amendment.

GRACE: Well, Joe Episcopo, I understand what you are saying. But Randy Kessler, my question was, which Episcopo danced around. You`re a beautiful dancer, Joe Episcopo.

The lawyer keeps saying, he won`t say why he`s seeking immunity for the grandparents. He just keeps saying, well, it`s my job. The grandparents have got to know he`s asking for immunity on their behalf.

KESSLER: Well, I`m going to dance, too, Nancy. You know, it`s our job sometimes.

GRACE: Oh, lord.

KESSLER: We have to take the fall. Who knows, if he comes out and says, this is why we`re taking immunity and let`s the cat out of the bag then what is the point of immunity.

You know, also why is the prosecution considering immunity.

GRACE: OK, you know what, Kessler, you and Episcopo, if I`m ever charged with murder, I`m hiring you.

Gloria, what`s the straight poop? What`s the straight answer on this?

ALLRED: Well, the straight answer is that he knows what his clients are going to say. And he`s concerned. He thinks there might be some risk. And he not willing to take that risk.

GRACE: And, of course, the grandparents who have got to know he`s seeking immunity.

Everybody, right now, "CNN Heroes"

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is "CNN Heroes."

SHAQUILLE O`NEAL: Domestic abuse is a very disturbing thing. I don`t really think a lot of women know what to do. My name is Shaquille O`Neal, my hero is Karen Earl. She helps and keeps women out of domestic violence situations.

KAREN EARL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, JENESSE CENTER: My friend brought me to Jenesse Center. She said, Karen, they need volunteers. I never knew that there were

I never knew that there were shelters that were safe houses. And I thought about, you know, my mom. I remember us having to run out of the house at midnight with the sheets wrapped around us. I know the impact it had on my mom and, of course, impact on me and my siblings. So I volunteered, and I never left. And in `97, I became the executive director.

O`NEAL: The Jenesse Center is a very comprehensive center. You can bring your children, they help you get back on your feet.

EARL: We have more than 100 beds where the women and the children can stay for two years.

We started something that we call healing through art. We try to work with that particular family to help them express what it is that they`re feeling.

O`NEAL: Ms. Earl is a tireless, fearless woman. She`s helping those in need. You get the presidential clap from me.

ANNOUNCER: Tell us about your hero at cnn.com/heroes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The young son of superstar actor John Travolta died while on vacation with his family. Sixteen-year-old Jett Travolta was found unconscious in the bathroom.

The death certificate lists seizure as cause of death, but we may never know all the details.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing that we can get answered to is going to bring Jett back. It remains a horrible tragedy.

GRACE: A second autopsy of little Caylee, complete.

Why are Caylee`s remains reportedly sitting alone in a cardboard box? Why not a funeral? What the hay is going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Private investigator Jim Hoover who volunteered his services to the Anthony family brought his camera equipment and tape to an Orlando law office. Detectives left with Hoover`s 10-minute video of the scene from November.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very helpful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoover says Mr. Casey told him, Caylee is dead, and I know where her remains are, and we have to go look for them.

GRACE: Stunning. If these allegations are true, that means the private eye who worked for the Anthonys knew where little Caylee`s remains are nearly a month before police did but said nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With shackles on her wrist and ankles, the tot mom arrived in court and was placed under oath.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear the testimony you`re about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she came in, first the sound of the chains on her feet preceded her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She sat silently, did not show any emotion. A quick little smile at the end of the day to her attorney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jeremy Vrooman, 28, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, killed, Iraq. On a second tour, wanted to join the Army and follow in his brother`s footsteps. Loved outdoors, hunting, fishing, mountain biking, science, electronics, but especially playing with his children. Leaves behind parents Bruce and Lori (ph), step parents Wayne and Sue, brother, Justin, wife, Latricia (ph) and children Xavier and Jade.

Jeremy Vrooman, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from the New York control room. Good night, Liz, Brett. Who`s on the end there? Oh, Kathy. Hi, dear.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern; and until then, good night, friends.

END


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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 08:30:03 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Video Shows PI`s Search of Caylee Remains Site Months Before Body Was Found

Aired January 12, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell. Tonight, caught on tape, the secret video of the Anthony`s private investigator searching that spot where little Caylee`s skeleton found weeks before police discover it. Tonight, we have the video. The grainy video, just obtained, clearly shows the Anthonys` PI talking frantically into his cell phone and at the same time digging, digging his way through the woods, including rifling through trash bags, trash bags like the one in which little Caylee was found.

Was the Anthonys` PI tipped off to the exact location of little Caylee? Who was on the other end of that cell phone? And why hasn`t he handed over those cell calls to police? Is this finally the direct link back to the tot mom prosecutors have been looking for?

And the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony angry the video`s being aired. But why? Why be angry? What`s there to hide? And still little Caylee`s remains sitting alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, no funeral date in sight. Why?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony Secret video allegedly...

Stunning developments in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Secret video allegedly showing two private investigators at the remains location back in November has just been released. The footage was shot by one of the private investigators on November 15th and 16th and contained some surprising discoveries. One of the private investigators is captured poking and prodding through the areas that may have been just steps from where Caylee`s remains were eventually found. The private investigator who recorded the scene says the other PI also seemed to zero in on a group of concrete (ph) stones (ph) in the area.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looks white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, reports have emerged that meter reader Roy Kronk, who found the remains last month, was also in the area back in November. According to a local CNN affiliate, Kronk was assigned to read meters in the Anthony neighborhood back in November, which makes it four times that Kronk was at the remains location before Caylee`s skull and bones were found.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Regardless if you`re a county employee, you can remain anonymous.

KRONK: Not if they find a freaking body.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a close-knit southwest Florida community is reeling. A 6-year-old boy vanishes into thin air. This child has the mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate. Tonight, the search by land, by air, on foot, ATV, infrared helicopter. Where is 6-year-old little Ozzie (ph)?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over 150 law enforcement continue to search for a missing 6-year-old Florida boy who was last seen Saturday, officers on horseback, K-9 units, ATVs and helicopters with infrared are all out canvassing the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It takes boots on the ground. It takes individual deputies getting out there and crawling through culverts and looking in brambles and bushes. So we`re just taking the search and being as thorough as we can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say the child is developmentally disabled and has the mind of a 2-year-old. Officials are very concerned about the search effort because the boy may hide from searchers and may not approach someone to tell them he is lost. The boy was last seeing playing with neighborhood kids outside his grandmother`s home. Police continue to treat this as a missing persons case and say they will search until he is found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell. Caught on tape, the secret video of the Anthonys` private investigator searching the spot where little Caylee`s skeleton found weeks before police discover it. Tonight, we have the video. Is there a direct link between little Caylee`s remains and the tot mom?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secret video has just been released of two private investigators allegedly searching the remains site a month before Caylee`s skull and bones were found. This secret footage was obtained by Orlando CNN affiliate WFTV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This chilling video shows the Anthonys` private investigator, Dominic Casey, in November, searching and ramming a metal rod into the ground here at the crime scene, mere feet from where Caylee Anthony`s remains were later found, and at a nearby abandoned house, where he also forcefully knifed open black trash bags.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the private investigators can be seen talking on a cell phone throughout the video and focusing on a grouping of stones in the area. A reporter with one Orlando CNN affiliate claims that the same private investigator who was on the cell phone at one point says to the other PI that was filming, quote, It would be right here.

Meanwhile, one Orlando station is reporting that the meter reader who found the remains was in the same location more times than had been previously reported. Meter reader Roy Kronk was reportedly near the site back in November, when he was assigned to read meters in the Anthonys` neighborhood.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KRONK: I`m in the Orlando, down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, standing by there at the crime scene. He is with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the latest is, of course, WFTV channel 9 and reporter Kathi Belich unveiling a story over the weekend about this secret video that was taken, showing the private investigator Jim Hoover shooting video of the second private investigator, by the name of Dominic Casey. Mr. Casey is shown with a metal rod probing the ground in about the general area where Caylee`s body was eventually found about 150 feet away. But also, it shows Mr. Casey also going through some plastic bags, some black bags, just ripping and tearing at them.

GRACE: Joining me right now, Kathi Belich with WFTV. What can you tell me, Kathi?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, I watched 12 minutes` worth of video, listened to it. There is audio that tape. We were not permitted to record it. We were permitted to record about a minute-and-a-half of the video. But I heard on that video -- at a point where you`re seeing the concrete blocks at the scene, I heard Dominic Casey, the Anthonys` private eye, say, It would be right here. The man who shot that video, private eye Jim Hoover, says that Dominic Casey told him that Caylee was dead and they were going to find her, and that`s what they were doing in that area on November 15th and November 16th.

GRACE: So Kathi, we have some of the video, but you saw the whole thing and you could hear it. You were disallowed from reproducing the audio.

BELICH: That`s right.

GRACE: Are you sure, Kathi Belich, that you heard the Anthonys` private investigator say, This is where it should be?

BELICH: I heard him say, It would be right here. And I listened to it again and again. And we were watching it on a big monitor and I stood with my ear right next to the speaker and then away from it. I listened to it several times so that I was sure. And what he says is, It would be right here.

GRACE: OK, what else did you see and hear on the video, Kathi Belich?

BELICH: On November 15th, Dominic Casey was milling about the scene. The focus seemed to be near these concrete blocks, which are there, just feet from where Caylee`s remains were found. He found some sort of a cloth of some kind. He lifted it with a knife, looked under it and then just sort of tossed it aside. He was looking around, and they seemed to be focused on these concrete blocks.

At this house, which -- from what I understand, you have to drive to that house from the scene. It`s not close enough where you could walk comfortably. I couldn`t find out where that house is. But again, the Anthonys` private eye, Dominic Casey, seemed to be focused for some reason on concrete blocks that were behind this abandoned house, and he literally just moved the blocks out of the way with his hands. No gloves on his hands, moved some 2-by-4s, and he just took a garden trowel and he just started digging right into the dirt there, several inches down, you know, and then he stopped, and they looked around the house.

And then it goes to the next day, which is November 16th, which he comes back to the scene sort of dressed in a bush jacket and jeans, sort of ready to go through the woods now. And he goes into the woods, again focused on those concrete blocks, and he gets some sort of a metal rod and he starts just jamming it into the ground. And at some point -- you know, a couple of times, it was all way down into the ground. A couple of times, it was getting sort of stuck and he was sort of forcing it. And then he -- you know, he went back to the house and he did the same thing with that rod.

Now, I should also say that on the 15th, he was on his cell phone. And he was walking out of the woods. He was sort of crouched down. You can see the video. He was sort or crouched down, looking around in the woods, on the cell phone with someone. And of course, the big question is, who was that that he was talking to on the cell phone?

GRACE: OK, Liz, in the control room, do you have the video ready? Let`s see it. OK, there you are seeing the Anthony private investigator, Dominic Casey, looking through bags, trash bags, just feet away from where little Caylee`s remains were ultimately found. Take a look.

Now, his excuse for being out there was that he heard it was a location where the tot mom hung out with friends. So why is he digging through trash bags and dirt? That is from WFTV. That`s one of the Anthonys` private investigators rifling through trash bags and searching near the wooded area where Caylee`s remains were discovered four weeks later.

Back to Kathi Belich, who has seen the entire video. Kathi, what was his story to police as to why he`s there at the scene where her skeleton is found weeks before police get there?

BELICH: I don`t know what he told the police. I know what he told me, and now there are new reports of a different story. He told me that he was on the phone, actually, with his ill daughter. Now I guess that are there reports that he was claiming that he was on the phone with a psychic of some kind. But he told me that he was there merely to -- first, he said he was going to rule it out as a location where one of Casey`s old high school friends had said she might have put a body, if she were going to do something like that. And then later, he sort of changed the story to he`s just ruling it out as a teen hangout. Now apparently, he`s saying that he went there because of a psychic tip, so...

GRACE: But why, everybody, would he be there if it were just a teen hangout? We are taking your calls live. More of that secretly recorded video we have just obtained when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reports are now back from forensic botanists and entomologists showing that Caylee Anthony died during the month of June, but they can`t pinpoint an exact day of death. And that degree of uncertainty could give Casey Anthony`s defense a point to argue. According to a forensic entomologist, that`s because investigators believe Casey Anthony dumped her daughter`s body in the middle of June.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can easily have an argument that would take you closer to the end of June, and someone could easily argue something closer to July.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Regardless of any potential defense argument, the timeframe of death information is helpful to the prosecution because either way, it shows the child was dead prior to the date she was reported missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Tonight, we have the secretly recorded video of the Anthony private investigator there at the scene, just feet away from where Caylee`s little skeleton was ultimately found. This is weeks before the police find out about it and get there. What was he doing out there? Who was he on the cell phone with? Why hasn`t he already turned over those cell phone records to police? Liz, do we have the remainder of that cued up?

OK, Kathi Belich, again, I understand that the private investigator, Dominic Casey, has met with police. Did he hand over his cell phone records?

BELICH: I don`t know whether he has volunteered his cell phone records. Obviously, that`s something the investigators would want to look at right away. I understand he has at least possibly as many as three cell phones and used different ones on different occasions. That`s according to Jim Hoover, the private investigator who took that video. And he passed that information along.

GRACE: Natisha Lance, our producer, also at the crime scene. Natisha, it`s my understanding police are still trying to get their hands on his cell phone records. True, false?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s what I`m hearing, as well, Nancy, that they are still trying to get their hands on his cell phone records, which have not been turned over as of yet.

GRACE: So my big question is, why hasn`t he turned the cell phone records over if there`s nothing to hide?

OK, let`s take a look at this just obtained video. Is this a direct link between little Caylee`s body and the tot mom? Here you see the Anthony private investigator digging, looking, searching, poking down into the dirt as if he`s looking for something buried. This is just feet away from where little Caylee is finally found. Here he is emerging from the woods, talking into the cell phone, just as Kathi Belich described for us. That is from WFTV. It`s the Anthony private investigator combing the woods weeks before Caylee`s remains are finally discovered, reportedly the same location where little Caylee`s remains found by a meter reader.

Out to the lines. Jonell in New York. Hi, Jonell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. The medical examiner made a point to say that there were no post-mortem trauma or broken bones. She never mentioned any broken bones made while the child was alive.

GRACE: Interesting. To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, joining us out of the Florida jurisdiction. Dr. Bell, would the medical examiner be able to tell whether a bone was broken pre- or post-mortem?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: They may be able to tell whether or not it was broken pre-mortem, yes.

GRACE: How?

BELL: Well, they look for any hemorrhage within the fracture site itself.

GRACE: A hemorrhage? Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hemorrhage, would that require soft tissue?

BELL: No, not in the bone. And also, they might see -- if there`s any healing, that would certainly indicate that it occurred prior to death.

GRACE: OK, Doctor, when you say "hemorrhage within the bone," what do you mean?

BELL: Within the -- within the bone itself. It`s a tissue, as well.

GRACE: But this -- this was completely skeletonized. Would there be tissue?

BELL: Bone is a tissue.

GRACE: Bone is a tissue?

BELL: Yes.

GRACE: OK, I`ve never thought of bone as being a tissue.

BELL: Yes, it`s a living...

GRACE: By hemorrhage, do you mean bleeding?

BELL: Blood, yes, or the remnants of blood or the staining by blood.

GRACE: Ah. So six months later, you can still find that?

BELL: Yes.

GRACE: Interesting, Doctor. You have just illuminated me on a new subject. So six months later, the medical examiner could possibly tell whether a broken bone had been broken pre- or post-death.

BELL: Yes.

GRACE: Wow. OK. Out to the lines. Alice in Florida. Hi, Alice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing? I want to thank you for giving us the facts and for sharing your children with us.

GRACE: Thank you. I`ve got some big news about Lucy later on in the show.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I`ll wait to hear it. I have two quick questions. One, is there any chance the meter reader contacted anybody in the Casey family? Because no one was listening. And two, is there any chance that this mom is going to try to do a plea deal, rather than going to trial?

GRACE: Well, I can tell you right now, if Baez has any sense, they should at least try to do a deal. Whether that will happen, I don`t know because that would require the tot mom to admit, even to her family, that she was involved in Caylee`s death. That may never happen.

And to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who put up the bond for the tot mom to start with, before he came off that bond, and looked exhaustively for little Caylee. What about that first question from Alice? Do you believe the meter reader contacted the family?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I think he contacted his supervisor, Scott, who lives right down the road from the Anthonys.

GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. Contacted the supervisor, what?

PADILLA: I think that he`s contacted and talked about it to his supervisor in August. The supervisor, Scott, lives right down the street from the Anthonys on Hopespring. And he was also back out there not only on November but he was also back out there the last weekend of August, the 29th or the 30th. The meter reader was out there in that...

GRACE: Here`s video of the meter reader. So you think it`s possible he contacted his supervisor, who may have contacted the family?

PADILLA: I think he talked to the supervisor, and I think the supervisor knows the Anthonys, yes.

GRACE: So you believe this was all a tip-off from within -- back to Kronk. You think that`s how the private eyes knew about it?

PADILLA: I don`t know exactly how the private eyes got it. There could have been two sources. In other words, Kronk wasn`t getting the job done, so let`s get the private eyes out there. And then finally, whether the private eyes -- see, the private eyes were just 12 feet from the body, but the body was submerged in a pool of water at that time. There was water there.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, veteran trial lawyer out of the San Francisco jurisdiction John Burris and high-profile defense attorney out of New York Richard Herman.

John, it`s not looking good that the Anthonys` private eye has changed his story, if, in fact, that is true. First he said he was checking this area out because it was a teen hangout of tot mom Casey. Who cares what she did when she was a teenager, all right? That`s not a good excuse. And now he says a completely different reason that he was there?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you never like it when a person who is being interviewed gives different stories about issues that ought not be different. You ought to know what that story is and you ought to give it and be truthful. I think at the end of the day, what really matters, though, is what you really said, and that is about the telephone call. Is there some way to connect this with the tot mom? If not, I don`t think it matters why they`re out there.

GRACE: OK, we`ll be back with Richard Herman`s analysis in just a moment. We are taking your calls live.

But very quickly, I want to tell you about tonight`s "Case Alert." A Missouri woman sentenced to life without parole at the age of 18 in the shooting death of her own father now set to walk free. In an exclusive jailhouse interview here on NANCY GRACE, Stacey Lannert says she killed her father after years of sex abuse, starting when she was just 8 years old. Missouri governor Matt Blunt commuting Lannert`s sentence to 20 years. She`s already served 18. She`s now eligible for immediate conditional release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY LANNERT, SENTENCED TO LIFE FOR KILLING FATHER: I know that I shot my father. He raped me for 10 years. I wasn`t able to say it at the time of the trial. I wasn`t able to say it to the jury. But I have to say it now so that some day I might have a life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We watched the video with Lee Anthony`s attorney, Tom Luca, which shows the Anthony family`s private eye, Dominic Casey, on the cell phone with someone.

Is it Lee?

TOM LUCA, LEE ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Not that I know of. Denied ever talking to him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But channel 9 has video of Lee Anthony and private eye Dominic Casey at the...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. But first to the lawyers, John Burris out of San Francisco, Richard Herman out of New York. Richard, it doesn`t look good for the Anthonys` private investigator to be digging, literally digging a few feet from where the body was ultimately discovered weeks before the police knew about it. This suggests the tot mom told them where the body was.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s your interpretation, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh, really? What`s yours?

HERMAN: Mine is this. Back in November 11th, a psychic, Gayle (ph) St. John, alerted to that area. Canine dogs are out there. They didn`t find anything. The meter reader was out there a handful of times. He didn`t see anything. Witnesses talked about that area. Meanwhile, three weeks after the investigators are there with videotape of nothing, they find the body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I provided detailed information to law enforcement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day before this press conference.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had to (INAUDIBLE) this route.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . Kronk`s supervisor told me that Kronk was assigned to work in this area in August when he made this phone call.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind one of the trees where the -- and it looked like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that he didn`t work there again until he found the remains in December.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not do anything to cause any attention whatsoever. Just stay right there. Nobody moving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be careful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But after pouring over Kronk`s schedule, we`ve learned he did work in that exact same area in November. So I asked his attorney what was so suspicious in August and December but not in November. And he told me, quote, "that area was not on his mind all the time. Kronk had his hands full in November and didn`t think about it."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back out to Richard Herman.

Richard, what were you saying about Gale St. John.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m saying that a psychic Gale St. John alerted to this area August 11th. This was an area of interest, OK? The guy says that a psychic was directing him in this area.

GRACE: Well, here`s the difference, Richard.

HERMAN: Yes.

GRACE: She can explain why she was there. Her story hasn`t changed. The Anthonys` private I has changed his story and I bet you, dollars to doughnuts, that she would turn over her cell phone records to police without having to have a warrant or a subpoena issued.

Hold on. Let`s go to the source.

With me right now, Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter." Why were you in the same general area?

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, HOST, "THE BODY HUNTER": Well, we were searching for Caylee Anthony at time.

GRACE: Why? Why were you there? Why did you go to that area?

ST. JOHN: Well, we did a blind drive and that`s where it led us and that`s where we had the strong feelings that her body would be there.

GRACE: What strong feeling?

ST. JOHN: Well, when we felt like we got punched in the stomach that was a good indication that she was there at that time and we were concerned about searching the area. We backed away because of the fact that there was water there. And we were concerned with destruction of forensic evidence or anything.

GRACE: And Gale St. John, that was your story the very first time I spoke to you as to why you were there. It has remained your story, and it is your story tonight, is that correct?

ST. JOHN: That`s correct.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Melissa in Tennessee. Hi, Melissa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hello, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. Thank you for calling. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god, first, I just love you, me and my best friend (INAUDIBLE). OK, the question is.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . when the duct tape was around her mouth and stuff, was it -- did it have any skin or any -- flesh still left to it? What was.

GRACE: No, completely skeletonized. No tissue left whatsoever. Isn`t that correct, Natisha Lance?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. According to the medical examiner, she said that there was no visible tissue found on the skeletal remains.

GRACE: Back to the lines. Susan Washington, hi, Susan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your beautiful babies.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you so much. I don`t take any credit, though. It was all a blessing from heaven.

What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m wondering if they might be, the investigators, might have been looking for some kind of a weapon or something that would link Casey to -- directly to the murder?

GRACE: Huh. What about it, Kathi Belich? Any discussion they were actually looking for a weapon?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, the medical examiner said there was no sign of trauma to the body. And other than the remains themselves they would not discuss at this point on the record what else they might have found with the body in that bag at the scene.

GRACE: To Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert joining us out of Raleigh, North Carolina.

Ben, thank you for being with us yet again to educate us. Ben, from what we know, from our sources, this private investigator has not handed over his cell phone records to police. Now, what would those cell phone records reveal?

BEN LEVITAN, COMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, Nancy, this is a red herring. It`s a complete red herring. The phone records that a subscriber would turn over are only billing records. It`s only 1/10 of the information collected.

It`s clear that the police, the Orlando Police, and detectives can obtain -- have those records right now in substantial detail.

Let me tell you what I think is really going on in this whole thing.

GRACE: OK.

LEVITAN: There`s a lot of circumstantial evidence. I believe that at this point it`s my opinion that the Anthonys, the detectives, and several other associates are under wiretap order, because right now, as far as bringing this to trial, everything is circumstantial.

I would bet you that, just like in the Governor Blagojevich manner, there is a wiretap on the family, on the investigator, and that is what is going to convict in this manner.

GRACE: Let`s take a look again at the just-obtained video of the Anthony private investigator. Here he is weeks before police get there actually cutting with a knife through trash bags there at the scene. This is just a few feet away from where Caylee`s little skeleton was ultimately found.

Why? Why is he out there digging with his trowel? Digging down deep into the earth and slashing open trash bags similar to the bag in which Caylee was ultimately found? That video is from WFTV. It`s from the Anthonys` private I, rifling through trash bags, searching near that wooded area where Caylee was found weeks later.

I want to go to Steve Kardian, former police detective, joining us out of New York. After you reviewing the tape, what do you see?

STEVE KARDIAN, FMR. POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, I see Mr. Casey going through that scene almost in a frantic way, like he was expecting to find something at that location. And -- it`s obvious that he was directed there by some source.

GRACE: And why slit open garbage bags, Steven Kardian, if you`re just checking out a scene where you`ve heard the tot mom hung out when she was a teenager. That doesn`t even make any sense. Why am I going to go off to the side of the road and start slitting open trash bags?

KARDIAN: Well, Nancy, it`s like he had information that, that he was going to be looking in -- for a body possibly in that trash bag. And by doing so, he -- contaminated that scene.

GRACE: To Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist joining us out of New York.

Dr. Taylor, it`s great to see you again.

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Dr. Taylor, this could be the direct link between the body of little Caylee back to the tot mom. Where did this P.I. working for the Anthonys, get the information?

My question to you after all the months of not talking, do you believe the tot mom would have tipped somebody off?

TAYLOR: Well, it certainly sounds like she could have tipped someone off and who more than likely than someone in her family. I mean, you know, clearly I`m not a private investigator, I`m not a lawyer, but there seems to be an element that distrust, the theme that runs with the family, and so that would allow them to keep secrets.

And so could she suggested -- could she had slipped something to someone in her family that let the -- private investigators be more suspicious? I`d say it`s certainly in the real of possibility.

GRACE: You know, the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, have been extremely quiet lately. No press conferences, no, nothing. Why?

TAYLOR: Well, you know, this case, this huge case, media notwithstanding, they`re in grief. They lost their granddaughter. Now they have to worry about being in the middle of a criminal case that potentially can involve their daughter.

So their silence probably runs around the theme of grief and also the fact that they really have to sit down and figure out a plan about how to get their family back together.

GRACE: Well, they`ve been through hell. They`re still in hell because they now realize little Caylee is dead. I still don`t understand why they haven`t laid the child to rest. Her bones are just sitting in a cardboard box at a funeral home.

To Kathy Belich with WFTV. Kathi, why would the search there be videotaped? Why were they taping it?

BELICH: Well, our legal analysts, Bill Schaefer, believes there is one of two reasons. He believes either that Dominic Casey had inside information somehow and went to the scene to truly carry on his search. Or he pretended to carry on his search to help the defense.

Either way he believes that Dominic Casey had to have inside information. He believes either he had inside information to look there or else he had to have inside information so that he didn`t while he was milling around on camera.

GRACE: Because.

BELICH: . stumbled upon the body, then there would be trouble in that situation. So that`s the take.

GRACE: Because that to me adds to the suggestion they knew the body was close because why videotape it?

Everyone, quickly, the search for a missing Georgia teen. Christian Gardner, last seen January 3, between midnight and 2:00 a.m. Forsyth County. Police searching for Kevin Black, an alleged sighting near (INAUDIBLE), north Georgia.

Take a look. If you have info about this missing girl, please call sheriffs at 770-781-2222.

And today, big news about the twins, little Lucy, walked today for the first time. And of course, John David who`s been walking for several weeks now. But I can remember when little Lucy was still attached in intensive care to so many tubes. And now she`s walking.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Before we take you to the latest on a missing 6-year-old little boy, let`s go back to the phones.

Nancy in Arkansas, hi, Nancy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your children are precious.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question I have is that private investigator, do you suppose maybe he knew that little Caylee was out there, and he was purposely opening the garbage bags to allow the animals to get to the bones and scatter them?

GRACE: Well, that is a speculation that he knew the body was there, but for what purpose, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: No, he wasn`t doing that. He was actually looking for the body. Hoover said that they`d gone out there because on the 15th, he was told that the body was there. She wasn`t alive. They were going to go get her.

And -- the problem is that where he was looking, he was about 12 feet away from the body. The body was actually submerged in about 18 inches of water at that time. The ones where he`s with the trowel and all that, that`s across a street at a vacant street.

But the reason he was looking at the house and over here in the -- where they found the body is because of the paver blocks. They were a designation as to where the body was, 12 feet from the paving blocks. That`s why he was there. He wasn`t trying to do nothing than trying to find the body.

GRACE: Let`s take a look again at this video. Take a look. Here you see the private investigator for the Anthonys. Now putting a rod several feet down into the ground, looking for what? He says he was just checking out a teen hangout of the tot mom`s. She hasn`t been a teenager for a really long time and here he is emerging in the woods, talking on the cell phone.

And quickly to Leonard Padilla, why do you think he hasn`t handed over those cell phone records?

PADILLA: Well, he hasn`t handled them over because he`s still telling stories about who he was talking to. I mean I`ve heard several other people`s name come up, including Joy Ray(ph) that he was talking to and.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: . and she admits that she was talking to.

GRACE: Everybody, you just saw a video from WFTV of the Anthonys` private I coming to the woods weeks before Caylee`s remains was discovered officially by the police. Reportedly it`s that same location found by a utility meter reader.

And very quickly, I want to go to the case of the missing little boy. But John Burris, Richard Herman, bottom line, if those cell phone record show that he was on the phone with anybody than the Anthony team, he`s up the creek without a paddle, Herman.

HERMAN: No, I don`t think so. 15th and 16th that`s a dry area there`s no body found. Three weeks later the body conveniently shows up, a stone`s throw from the roadway.

GRACE: OK, that was beautiful. I didn`t know you knew how to tango because you danced right out of that question.

Burris, give it to me straight. If those cell phones of him on the phone at that moment where he is 12 feet from Caylee`s body relates back to the Anthony team, he`s in trouble. They`re all in trouble. The tot mom`s in trouble.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the tot mom`s in trouble no matter what.

GRACE: Well, I know that, obviously, she`s indicted for murder one.

BURRIS: Yes, right. She`s in trouble but the question is what is the trouble that he`s involved in? He`s trying to find a body. I don`t think that makes him a criminal in any ways. And if someone gave him that information.

GRACE: Not him. It shows he got the information from her behind bars. Hello!

BURRIS: Well, I -- I understand that.

HERMAN: But it`s false.

BURRIS: But you don`t know that. They`ve got tie that up.

GRACE: Yes, I know.

BURRIS: And I don`t know that he`s going to follow with that or not.

GRACE: I know I don`t know -- that`s why we have a trial.

(CROSSTALK)

HERMAN: Every call`s recorded, Nancy. You know that.

GRACE: Yes, I do.

BURRIS: So it`s hard to believe that the.

GRACE: So I`m very happy for when he turns over those cell phone records voluntarily to police.

BURRIS: She`s not talking to her, though.

HERMAN: They already have it.

BURRIS: She is not talking.

HERMAN: They have his records, yes.

GRACE: Well put, gentlemen.

Quickly, I want to talk about the 6-year-old missing boy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are desperate to find a 6-year-old boy who has been missing since Saturday afternoon. The boy was last seen outside his grandmother`s home playing with friends late in the afternoon. When the child`s stepfather came to pick him up, the boy was gone.

Over 150 law enforcement and personnel are out searching the area with helicopters and ATVs also brought in to assist the search effort. Police say the 6-year-old is developmentally disabled and has the mind a 2-year- old. He cannot speak and only understands a few words.

Authorities also say the boy may hide from searchers which has them concerned for his well being.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Poor little thing has the mind of a 2-year-odl child. He may actually be hiding from the searchers. He cannot communicate verbally.

Rory O`Neill with Westwood 1 Radio, joining us. Rory, explain to me how did he go missing?

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Nancy, good evening. He was playing in the yard. It`s a communal area. He was playing in there. And some family and friends had thought he was around. He was last seen around 5:30 on Saturday night. The father came to pick him up. He wasn`t there.

GRACE: Oh no, they lost all of that time?

O`NEILL: Then it got worse because the mother of the child was at work. She works at a local nursing home. She didn`t get home until about midnight. That`s when she found out that the boy is missing.

GRACE: Oh no.

O`NEILL: Since then the search`s been pretty thorough. Helicopters, bloodhounds, everything that they can do across South Florida, really, to find the little 6-year-old.

GRACE: To Lieutenant Tom Smith, with a special crime`s bureau with Collier County Sheriff`s Office.

Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. Describe the little boy for me.

LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Good evening. Yes, Adji Desir is 6 years of age and as you said he is developmentally disabled. He is three feet tall, 45 pounds with black hair and brown eyes. He was last seen wearing a blue shirt with yellow stripes and a pair of blue shorts with little pink flamingos going down the seams.

GRACE: This little child could be wandering alone right now. Look at him. He has a mind of a 2-year-old child.

Lieutenant, does he speak English?

SMITH: He only speaks about five words of English. His native language is Creole. But he doesn`t speak it. He understands and can respond by shaking his head. He knows his name. Responds to it by looking at you and shaking, you know, his head yes or no. So he`s extremely nonverbal which adds to the fact that he couldn`t speak up and say, help me, I`m lost, you know, with a stranger.

GRACE: Well, certainly, anybody that sees a 6-year-old child walking alone would know something was wrong, Lieutenant, don`t you think?

SMITH: Oh, absolutely. But you know, obviously, we`re working parallel investigations which is the best way to do these kinds of matters where we don`t miss any opportunities. So at the same time that we`re working the case as an endangered child, we`re also looking at and exploring all the avenues as regards to an abduction.

GRACE: Do you believe at this juncture he was kidnapped? I mean how far could a child with a mental capacity of a 2-year-old get on his own?

SMITH: Well, you know there`s a lot of dynamics that go with young children and you know, sometimes they amaze us as to what their survivability is and what their wandering ability. So we are, like I said, doing a complete parallel investigation covering all avenues in both directions. But at this time, there`s nothing to lead us or way us in one way or the other.

GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Westwood 1 Radio, what is the prevalent theory about where the little boy is?

O`NEILL: Well, it`s difficult. As the officer was just saying, it`s difficult to pin down whether or not this was a crime or this is just a tragic situation. There is a fence surrounding the neighborhood where he lives, the farm worker`s village.

But there are plenty of holes in it. It`s very porous. It`s -- they wouldn`t confine him necessarily. So that makes it that much more complicated as they try to find these holes in the fence (INAUDIBLE) designed to keep him inside.

GRACE: Describe the area. Describe the area.

O`NEILL: Very remote. Again, this is a -- this is a farming community. So the area where they are, it`s actually a housing district but just outside there, it gets very rural very quickly. It is some dense, agricultural -- it`s a dense agricultural area.

GRACE: Rory, who last saw him?

O`NEILL: It was his grandmother who last saw him. He was playing at his her house in and throughout the day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It takes boot on the ground. It takes individual deputies getting out there and crawling through coverts and looking in rambles and bushes. So we`re just taking the search and being as thorough as we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say the child is developmentally disabled and has the mind of a 2-year-old. Officials are very concerned about the search effort because the boy may hide from searchers and may not approach someone to tell them that he is lost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back out to our special guests, Lieutenant Tom Smith.

Do you believe the little boy wandered off or was he abducted? What is your analysis at this point?

SMITH: Well, at this point, you know, I have to stick to our hypothesis that we`re sharing the investigation in both directions. There isn`t anything that`s weighing us in either direction.

So, you know, to say that we`re looking at the abduction stronger than we would the endangered child side would do exactly what we don`t want to do. We don`t want to miss any opportunities. We`re following both areas just as tightly.

GRACE: OK. Out to the lines, Jax in Canada. Hi, Jax.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, I love you so much and you`re such an inspiration. And I hope someday I`m blessed with beautiful babies like Lucy and John David.

GRACE: A, I`m not an inspiration. And B.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are.

GRACE: . God bless you in your wishes. You know I worked all the way up, 48 when I finally gave birth. So believe me, there`s hope.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if there`s any evidence of foul -- of foul play, sorry.

GRACE: OK. Lieutenant?

SMITH: Not at this time.

GRACE: OK. Rhonda, Kentucky, quickly, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. I wondered, you said he was with playmates. I wondered how old they were?

GRACE: Good question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they were they playing some kind of game? If it`s possible that.

GRACE: Lieutenant, what about it?

SMITH: It`s a farming community. All of the children are very comfortable in the community. There`s a lot of orange groves. They around the orange groves, the basketball grounds. All of his friends are age appropriate, they`re 4, 5 and 6. They`ve all been interviewed. And everything -- everything seems to be that he just disappeared from the street corner at this time.

GRACE: Everyone, the tip line, 239-774-8477.

Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant David Textor, 27 years old, Roanoke, Virginia, killed Iraq. An elite Green Beret, highly decorated with a National Defense Service medal, Army Service ribbon, Special Forces tab.

Lost his life hours after his last Web chat with his wife. Loved motorcycles, camping, weightlifting, going to parks. Dreamed of coaching kid soccer. Leaves behind parents, Bill and Jenny, five sisters, widow Collette, five children ages 2 to 14.

David Textor, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.

END




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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 09:12:27 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Anthonys May Cremate Caylee`s Remains

Aired January 13, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A heart-wrenching story, Nancy. Thank you. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.

Bombshell. Are there plans to cremate little Caylee? Even though cremation by incinerator completely destroys any and all forensic evidence that may be left behind, the Anthonys say cremating is the only way to stop grave robbers from stealing Caylee`s remains.

And tonight, caught on tape, secret video of the Anthonys` private investigator searching the very spot where Caylee`s little skeleton was found weeks before police discover it. Tonight, we have the video, the grainy video clearly showing the Anthonys` PI talking frantically into a cell while digging through the woods, rifling through trash bags, bags like the one in which Caylee was found. Was the Anthonys` PI tipped off to the exact location of little Caylee, and by whom? Well, tonight, a renowned psychic claims she was on the other end of that cell phone, and she`s with us live.

And did a crack reporter link up a house that was searched for Caylee`s remains to Zenaida Gonzalez? And the utility meter reader who discovers little Caylee`s remains takes to the airwaves, denying wrongdoing. What`s his story?

And tonight, in the last 72 hours, grandmother Cindy Anthony insists the tot mom would not harm little Caylee, still blaming the nanny Zenaida Gonzalez. At this hour, Caylee`s remains still sitting alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home. No funeral date in sight. Why?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did tot mom Casey Anthony tell a private investigator where Caylee`s remains were before they were found? Questions remain about the secret video just released showing two PIs in the wooded area possibly steps from where Caylee`s skull and bones were later discovered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That tape was shot by another private eye who was working with him. The video raises new questions about a possible link to the little girl`s remains and her mother, who is charged with murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, meter reader Roy Kronk speaks out, describing in detail how he was at the remains site back in August and called authorities.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m in Orlando, down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony said the remains of Caylee may be cremated. Once the remains are given to the family, both private and public memorials are expected, but when?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a close-knit southwest Florida community still reeling after a 6-year-old boy vanishes into thin air. This child has the mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate. Tonight, the search expands by land, by air, on foot, ATV, infrared helicopter. Where is 6- year-old little Ozzie (ph)?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search for the missing 6-year-old Florida boy has expanded to 12 miles today, with over 150 law enforcement and 100-plus volunteers assisting to find him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the five years I`ve been with the sheriff`s office, I`ve not ever seen this lengthy of an effort.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy was last seen Saturday afternoon playing with friends outside his grandmother`s home and was reported missing by family a few hours later. Authorities are investing all angles, including that the child was possibly abducted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re isolating all the trash that was collected the other day in the Makaly (ph) area. We`re searching the sexual offender database. We`re making sure we don`t leave any stone unturned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swamp buggies were reportedly expected to join in the search today, allowing searchers to go into tough terrain they previously couldn`t search. Police say the boy is developmentally disabled and has the mind of a 2-year-old. The search continues into the night, with infrared helicopters scouring the area for clues.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The more eyes out there and the more times this little guy`s face is shown is just the more that, you know, possibilities of somebody actually finding him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Are there plans to cremate little Caylee? The Anthonys say cremation is the only way to stop grave robbers from stealing Caylee`s remains. And tonight, the secret video of the Anthonys` PI searching a spot where Caylee`s skeleton was found, searching weeks before police discover it. The woman who claims she led him there is with us live. All the while, the utility meter reader who discovers Caylee takes to the airwaves, denying wrongdoing. What`s his story?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caught on tape, the Anthonys` private investigator searching the spot where Caylee`s skeletal remains were found a month before police discovered it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were the two private investigators who were near the remains site back in August told the remains would be there? The just- released video showing the PIs in the wooded area has raised questions what led them to the location, which has some people asking whether tot mom Casey Anthony told the PIs where the remains were. This secret footage was obtained by Orlando CNN affiliate WFTV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Channel 9 has video of Lee Anthony and private eye Dominic Casey at the jail together right after Lee`s sister, Casey, was arrested there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Lee who`s on the phone with Dominic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I know, and as far as my client`s concerned, it`s not him on the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: WFTV reports the detectives are pulling records to find out who the PI was talking on cell phone at that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the attorney for the Anthonys says that Caylee`s remains may be cremated, the meter reader who found Caylee`s skull and bones is speaking out, discussing how he was at the crime scene back in August, what he saw, and what led him to find the remains months later.

KRONK: On Thursday, December 11th, I discovered and reported to my management and appropriate authorities the remains of a human body located in the wooded area...

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KRONK: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looks white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: More twists and turns in the Caylee Anthony case. Straight out to Natisha Lance, standing by at the crime scene there in Florida. Natisha, what can you tell me about little Caylee possibly being cremated? Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, according to the Anthonys` attorney, they are considering cremating Caylee`s remains because for the sheer fact, Nancy, that they are concerned that possibly her grave, if they bury her, it could be robbed and people could go in there trying to profit from her, taking pictures of the remains or possibly digging them up and trying to sell them in some type of way.

Now, if these remains are cremated, that will erase any type of forensic evidence that could further be gleaned from these remains. However, the Orange County sheriff`s office is done with their investigation, and as we all know, the defense still working with them.

GRACE: Well, out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, family lawyer in New York, Stacy Schneider (ph), defense attorney out of New York, Raymond Giudice, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta.

Susan Moss, there have been many, many cases where bodies have been exhumed for further evidence.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely, especially if they find some new evidence that they want to match, especially with regard to maybe the hairs or with regard to the tape or with regard to something that may still be in those bones. You know, it`s very common. It`s very common to exhume bodies. This is taking away that ability, and I think it`s a huge mistake to find the truth of what`s happening.

GRACE: And back to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the crime scene. Natisha, there have been many, many famous people that have been buried and have not been the victim of grave robbers. Speaking of child victims, obviously, JonBenet Ramsey springs to mind, famous people like Anna Nicole Smith, where people were actually trying to get shots into the medical examiner`s office to take pictures of her remains. Nothing has disturbed those remains. So is there a reason that the Anthonys believe that Caylee`s remains would be disturbed?

LANCE: Well, they`re not citing a specific reason, but they are saying that it is a concern. And it might be the high profile of this case, Nancy. And as we`ve seen before, other people have been trying to get as many pictures of the family. They`ve been in the media spotlight for quite some time. So they are saying that it is a concern and they are taking the cremation under consideration.

GRACE: Also joining us tonight there at the crime scene is reporter with WBDO Drew Petrimoulx. Drew, what is going on behind you there at the crime scene? I see a lot of activity.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: I mean, there`s a huge memorial back there, if you can see it. There are hundreds of teddy bears and there`s crosses and boards that people have signed and wrote little notes to Caylee. And to the second, there are still people coming out here and paying their respects to Caylee, leaving thing in her memory.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, on the story from the very beginning. Kathi, what can you tell me about the story that you break regarding the video, the video of the Anthonys` private eye at the scene weeks before police were alerted, looking for Caylee`s remains just about 12 feet or so from where her body was finally found?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we found out today is we have found out where that house is that is also in that video. It`s less than a mile from the Anthonys` home. It`s actually owned by a Gonzalez family. It is abandoned. Neighbors say it`s been abandoned for about a year.

Now, I know that Dominic Casey, the Anthonys` private eye, is claiming that he was directed there by the psychic. And I believe you`re going to talk to her a little bit later, but there`s no information about who directed him to the scene.

Now, this house, he did a very superficial search, and as I understand what the psychic told us, she said she told him what to do, so he was for some reason taking direction from a psychic on how to conduct the search at a possible crime scene.

But one of the questions is tonight, if he had this tip in November and the private eye who`s shooting that video, Jim Hoover, told us today that the Anthonys were aware of that search in November -- he said he found out in December that a Gonzalez family owned that home. And his question is and our question is, Why didn`t the Anthonys call investigators back in November when they thought they had a tip that could connect her disappearance to Gonzalez?

GRACE: Right. Kathi Belich with WFTV has actually seen the entire video. Liz, do you have the video ready? Let`s take a look at the Anthonys` private eye there at the scene, just feet from where little Caylee was finally discovered. There you see him digging with a trowel. That`s video from WFTV of the private eye frantically searching. There is also video of him coming out of the woods, talking frantically on the cell phone and poking down into the earth to try to find if something is buried.

With us when we come back, the woman who says she was on the phone with him and directed him where to go.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm (INAUDIBLE) this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth, so help you, God?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

CASEY ANTHONY: That I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth. That is the absolute truth.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S UNCLE: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you told me, including where Caylee is right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. And here...

CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to the lines. Teresa in Texas. Hi, Teresa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My mother and I are wonderful fans of yours.

GRACE: Thank you for watching, and especially for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is, you know the duct tape that they found around her? Can they lift fingerprints from that?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What about it, Mike?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. Whoever put the tape around her mouth, they tore it off with their hands, there could be fingerprints. There also probably was some trace evidence on that duct tape. And even if they used scissors to cut it and maybe they recovered some scissors during the search warrant, which we don`t know, they would also possibly be some adhesive on those scissors. So there`s a lot you can get from duct tape, absolutely.

GRACE: Everybody, just take a look at that video of Anthony`s private investigator there on the scene. Here he is coming out of woods where Caylee was discarded, talking on the cell phone. There`s additional video of him digging down into the earth, looking for something buried. There you see him cutting, slashing into trash bags just like the one in which little Caylee was buried. Why? That`s from WFTV. It`s the Anthonys` PI in the woods, rifling through trash bags before Caylee was discovered by police, anyway.

And with us right now, the woman who says she led him to that location, Ginnette Matcia (SIC). She is a psychic who claims Dominic Casey was on the phone with her during the search. Ms. Matcia, thank you for being with us.

GINNETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Now, did -- how did you get hooked up with Dominic Casey to start with?

LUCAS: Well, I have a big reputation in the northern Virginia- D.C. area, and another fellow dowser -- do you know what dowsing is?

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

LUCAS: Can you hear me? Another fellow dowser called me and asked me to do some location work for the Anthony case.

GRACE: Yes.

LUCAS: And I said, Sure, what the heck, go ahead, let`s try it. So he called down there. And I guess he had spoken with Sergeant Allen and Allen wasn`t interested. And then I guess he spoke with Dominic Casey and Dominic Casey said he was interested.

And every time I worked on it, I couldn`t get the information. So eventually, one day, I picked up the information and I called Dominic right away about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning on the 15th. And I said, I have what I call "the fast and final." I had some training from a former retired -- now retired D.C. detective, Detective Mike Helwig (ph) of the forensics department of D.C. police, and he would always give me pointers of how to, you know, attempt to go into a crime scene and so forth. And I`m also a former private investigator...

GRACE: What you were telling him on the phone, Ms. Lucas?

LUCAS: I told him to go over to the area where an abandoned house was. I told him, When you leave the Anthony house, come out the front -- pretend you`re coming out the front door, take a right and go to the end of the street, and go to where the abandoned house is and...

GRACE: Right. And were you -- were you giving him specific directions while you were on the phone with him?

LUCAS: Oh, absolutely. We were on the phone off and on for a while.

GRACE: Have you ever seen the location?

LUCAS: No.

GRACE: So this was all from your psychic feelings about the location?

LUCAS: Right. But that`s what I do. I do it all the time.

GRACE: And is it true that you had at some point a teddy bear that once belonged to little Caylee and you presumably channeled information through that?

LUCAS: No, I didn`t channel. I`m not a channeler. I`m a...

GRACE: OK, did you have a teddy bear that belonged to Caylee?

LUCAS: Yes. Oh, yes. They mailed it to me.

GRACE: Did you use it in any way?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I touched the teddy bear and...

GRACE: Right. And what happened when you touched the teddy bear?

LUCAS: I didn`t get much. And I didn`t proceed much. And then I put down the teddy bear, put out a picture, a map, touched it, went to bed. And I had a dream about the information, got the final location, got up at 3:00 in the morning and called him and left him a message. And I said, Call me right away. I`ve got it and I want you to go check it out immediately.

GRACE: What was the dream, Ms. Lucas?

LUCAS: That she was in a plastic bag. I said there might be two plastic bags, a white one and a dark brown -- not a brown but a black one, and then a dark green one. And I said, Don`t -- I said, You`re not looking for a little person sitting on the curb, you`re looking for garbage, what looks like garbage.

GRACE: Did you turn over your cell phone records to police?

LUCAS: No, I`m trying to get ahold of it through Verizon. I`m not having an easy time with Verizon.

GRACE: Do you get a monthly bill?

LUCAS: Well, it goes to my dad`s office. So he...

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that be a monthly bill that shows all of the phone calls?

LUCAS: My dad says it`s not on there. So I`ve called Verizon and they said they couldn`t get it.

GRACE: They couldn`t get what?

LUCAS: They couldn`t get the detailed phone calls. So I`m going to go talk to a supervisor tomorrow.

GRACE: OK, Mike Brooks, I`ve never heard a phone call to a cell, a long-distance phone call from a land line or a cell call not showing up, except when the tot mom said little Caylee called her on her cell phone. It`s the only time I`ve ever heard that. So this case is full of cell calls not showing up.

BROOKS: You know, Nancy, all the police have to do is go and get a subpoena for Verizon.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

BROOKS: And you know, that`s -- that`s (INAUDIBLE) But this whole psychic -- I tell you what...

GRACE: Hey, hey, hey. Wait, wait, wait. Save it. I know how you feel about psychics. Whatever, how you or I may feel about psychics, irrelevant. What matters is, Who was he talking to on the phone directing him to the area where little Caylee was found.

BROOKS: Oh, absolutely. Easy to find out.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who learned all the details about the conversation regarding Dominic Casey going to the scene. What do you make of this?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Nancy, first of all, let me apologize for something.

GRACE: Oh, Lord.

PADILLA: I made a statement last night that he was 12 feet from the body when he was by the pavers. The pavers that he was at are 150 feet down from the actual site where the body was found.

GRACE: OK. Correction noted. What do you think about the psychic, Ginnette Matcia Lucas, stating she was the one directing him where to go?

PADILLA: If there`s no call on the Verizon bill, it never took place.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. What did you hear him saying on the cell phone as he emerged from the woods?

BELICH: I could not hear what he was saying on the cell phone on that tape that I listened to. What I heard him say when you see the pavers that Leonard was just referring to, I hear him say, It would be right here, as we were looking on the video at the pavers.

And let me tell you that Ginnette told us that she had called Dominic at 6:00 o`clock in the morning. And the time stamp on that videotape says that he was on the phone at 9:15 in the morning. And Dominic told me that`s when he was at that scene, at 9:15 that Saturday morning. So lots of discrepancies.

GRACE: OK, so what are you saying, Kathi, that it`s too many inconsistencies to be true?

BELICH: It just -- it just seems like -- she says she was on the phone with him at 6:00 in the morning...

GRACE: But wait a minute, Kathi.

BELICH: At 3:00 in the morning, he was on the phone that...

GRACE: She could have called and given him the information. But Ms. Lucas, you`re saying you were on the phone with him while he was searching?

LUCAS: Yes, of course, I was. I had...

GRACE: OK.

LUCAS: Listen, I`ll tell you what. You know what we need do is take it up with Verizon. Tell them to help me out here.

GRACE: We don`t need do anything. The police are going do it to try to determine whether this is correct.

But Kathi, again, what did you hear him saying on the cell phone?

BELICH: I could not hear what he was saying on the cell phone. I only could hear what he said as we`re looking at the concrete blocks in the video.

GRACE: OK, what did he say?

BELICH: He said, It would be right here. That`s what I heard him say.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The meter reader who found Caylee Anthony`s remains is breaking his silence. Roy Kronk discovered the Florida toddler`s remains in a wooded area near the Anthony family home in mid- December. He`s been the focus of speculation since it was uncovered that called in three tips to the Orange County, Florida, police back in August. Officials insist he`s not a suspect. Even so, he said in a "Good Morning America" interview he feels he`s been vilified for doing the right thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And he takes to the airwaves just this morning to deny wrongdoing. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRONK: You try to do the right thing, you try to be a nice guy, and you just get vilified and to where people -- I mean, and the sad thing is, is people actually believe some of the things that are being said. And I have nothing to do with this at all. But you know, you listen to some of these conspiracy theories, and you know, I`ve done everything known to mankind. I haven`t done anything. I just tried to help to put a little closure to that poor child and that she got a decent burial and to end all this. That`s all I tried to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s meter reader Roy Kronk on "Good Morning America," ABC. We`ll find out what his story is as to why he was in the location to start with. Does he claim he had a hunch little Caylee would be there?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We watched the video with Lee Anthony`s attorney, Tom Luca, which shows the Anthony family`s private I, Dominic Casey, on the cell phone with someone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Lee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that I know of. (INAUDIBLE) never talking to him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Channel 9 has video of Lee Anthony and private I, Dominic Casey, at the jail together right after Lee`s sister Casey was arrested there. So we asked again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Lee who`s on the phone with Dominic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I know, and as far as my client`s concern, it`s not him on the phone on November 15th, 2008.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could it be somebody who Lee spoke with who then went to Dominic Casey and provided this information?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, in the realm of complete and total speculation, it could have been anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though last week we heard that only Dominic Casey`s colleague, private I Jim Hoover, who shot it, had a copy of this chilling videotape, Luca told us he saw it last week and talked to Dominic Casey about it. Then he backtracked.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you see it last week? Who showed it to you last week?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I take that back. I was -- I take that back. I was not shown -- well, when it was on TV I saw it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it wasn`t on TV before last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I take that back. I did not see -- no, I did not see the video. I take that back. That was not the video I saw.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Kathi Belich with WFTV, you have identified discrepancies. You believe in the story that he was on the phone with a psychic at the time he was searching?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: A couple of things don`t make sense about that. She told you she was on the phone with him at 3:00 our 4:00 in the morning. She told us that she was on the phone with him at 6:00 in the morning.

The time -- stamp on the videotape shows he was on the phone at 9:15 in the morning which he verified with us that that`s why he was there, and I`m not sure why the psychic would want to brag that she sent him from the scene where the body actually was to another location where the body actually wasn`t. So I -- don`t understand any of it.

GRACE: Well, with me is Ginnette Matacia Lucas, a renowned psychic. She claims Dominic Casey, the Anthony P.I., on the phone with her during the search.

Do you have an explanation, Miss Lucas?

GINNETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC, WAS ON THE PHONE W/P.I. DURING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE: Yes, first, I want to say I`m not bragging. I don`t appreciate that. I did the work on a volunteer basis because I was asked to do the work and secondly, I talked to him for hours of and on to guide him to the spot. I told him to do a radius of over 100 feet where the pavers were.

And thirdly, we`re just waiting on Verizon to prove the documentation. And that`s all we`re doing at this point. And I`m sure that Verizon will come through for us and they`ll be fine.

The police department has not called to get the documentation, hasn`t made a second phone call to me at all, to even ask for the information. So bragging is not in the definition here.

GRACE: So, Kathi Belich, you are corrected. Bragging is not part of the equation.

Let`s go to the lawyer. Susan Moss, Stacy Schneider, Ray Giudice.

To you, Ray Giudice, if he was not on the phone with a psychic.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right, who?

GRACE: Exactly.

GIUDICE: Right. Listen.

GRACE: Because the only other person that would know where the body was and now he`s cornered himself in.

GIUDICE: Yes.

GRACE: . by saying I was on the phone with a psychic.

GIUDICE: And I don`t like to criticize other lawyers but I thought Mr. Dominic Casey`s attorney right there -- if he didn`t know the answer, he shouldn`t have went on television because I think he can get Dominic Casey`s cell phone records or SIM card and find out who made that call.

I think this -- the circle could be closed and the fact that it hasn`t been is totally suspicious.

GRACE: And the point is, Raymond, that if he`s not on the phone with the psychic.

GIUDICE: Right, who.

GRACE: . who he is now, now committed to being on the phone.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Even if she was on the phone with him all day long.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: All right? If he`s not on the phone with her while he`s searching, then who knows where the body is other than the killer.

GIUDICE: And that`s.

GRACE: And who would that be, he`s working for the Anthony family.

GIUDICE: And that`s the last piece of evidence. I don`t think it`s a necessary piece of evidence for a state to get a conviction but that will slam dunk this case.

GRACE: Stacy Schneider, weigh in.

STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, a couple of points. I think that the psychic could have a point. If she was on the phone with him for several hours throughout the day and that eventually becomes substantiated by these Verizon records that she`s waiting for then, she has a point.

You know the time line might be a little bit off. She started talking to him at 3:00 in the morning. It -- they stopped talking. They picked up the call again.

GRACE: But she said .

SCHNEIDER: Memory might.

GRACE: . it`s not on -- that her -- father who gets the records says it`s not there.

SCHNEIDER: Well, how carefully -- you know I`m an attorney and I evaluate phone records all the time. I don`t know -- how carefully did she look at her records? Did she match up the dates and time?

If she`s taking a step further to go to Verizon and get this substantiated, then I think we have to give her the benefit of the doubt until those records come in.

GRACE: Well, I`m just telling you this, if the times don`t pan out, they better dig in because this is a major piece of evidence for the state.

SCHNEIDER: And a lot of people will have a credibility problem. You`re right, Nancy. That will be a big, big problem.

GRACE: And we -- we also learned, back to Kathi Belich, WFTV.

Kathi, it`s my understanding that in the last 72 hours, Cindy Anthony has reiterated that her daughter had nothing to do with this.

BELICH: That`s what I understand. I understand she sent an e-mail over the weekend to a woman who`s daughter had been communicating with Casey Anthony and she told that woman that she believes that the nanny had something to do with this or the very least, I -- you know I could stand corrected on that. But she said that her daughter did not having anything to do with hurting Caylee.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Drew, are the Anthonys still sticking with the Zenaida Gonzalez story?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO, ON LOCATION WHERE CAYLEE`S BODY FOUND: They haven`t been talking about that. I did hear Brad Conway say something in reference to Zenaida Gonzalez, how the Zenaida Gonzalez that is in fact filed a civil suit against Casey, is not the person that they were talking about when they were talking about the babysitter who kidnapped her but they haven`t made a comment on that.

On the quote of what she recently said. She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. So that was just in the last couple of hours here that that was released. So, apparently, she is still sticking by that her daughter is innocent.

GRACE: And also Drew Petrimoulx, all this back and forth about cremation. What do we know about funeral plans?

PETRIMOULX: I saw on the Web site dedicated to Caylee`s memory today that they still haven`t planned the public or private funerals. But they are in the planning stages of that. We understand that the remains are to be released to the family for, you know, their proper burial and we know that they are considering a cremation and they said that they will post on the Web site when.

GRACE: OK.

PETRIMOULX: . they have firmed plans as to when that date will be.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, Mike, did you see the meter reader, Kronk, on the air, taking to the air waves, denying any wrongdoing, saying that he was in that location because of a hunch? Caylee may be there.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes.

GRACE: Now I`ve been on the meter reader`s side from the get-go. When I heard he went on a hunch.

BROOKS: You know.

GRACE: . I got a hunch that that`s just -- that something smells, OK?

BROOKS: Yes, you know -- like from the very beginning I`ve always thought there was a little something different, but you know, listening to him today I kind of believed him and apparently law enforcement is, too.

But go back to the facts, August 11th, 12th and 13th. On the 13th he was there and he met with a deputy. Now that deputy was -- out of service for 40 minutes. What did he find? What didn`t he find? Was it really trash like he said the disposition was? Or did he find nothing at all?

GRACE: And also let me go out to Lillian Glass -- Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist.

Dr. Glass, I`m not suggesting wrongdoing on Kronk`s part. I mean he did call the police. If there was wrongdoing I doubt he would have been calling police, but to show up in the area where the body is because you`ve got a hunch so you could be there?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Nancy, there`s so many things and so many inconsistencies that it`s very, very confusing. But when you listen to him talk, he does sound rather credible. And he does sound very sincere.

GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County.

Dr. Perper, how can you, if this is possible, determine whether Caylee`s remains were underwater in August? Is there a way to determine that?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": No. There`s not really a reliable way except if there was water in the bag or -- the bone morrow of the bones or the bones themselves are wet. You cannot really determine a certain time during the period that she was missing.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Kathy in Pennsylvania. Hi, Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Oh, ouch. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. My question --0 my sister and I love you. Watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The garbage bags that the private investigators were ripping through.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were they still in the area when the body was found? And if so were they, like, checked?

GRACE: Great question.

Kathi Belich, what do we know? Were those same bags still there?

BELICH: I have no idea.

GRACE: OK.

BELICH: That would that have been November 15th. I have no idea. They weren`t there today. I have no idea.

GRACE: We`ll try to find that out for you, Kathy in Pennsylvania.

To Lisa in Idaho, hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. I have two questions. Prior to Caylee`s disappearance, is there even one person that her friends or family to Casey that have heard of Zanny the nanny? Or was there even one phone call based on Casey`s cell phone records to a known Zenaida Gonzalez?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, what do we know, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, the people that she used referred to -- you know, say she was with Zanny the nanny, that was Xanax or something to that effect.

But you`ve got to give me 45 seconds, Nancy. And then you can send me to time-out. The -- the pavers they`re talking about that the -- meter reader and the private detective were sent to, they were both tipped by the same source. And they`re 150 feet away from where the body was found.

That`s the whole confusion here. The cops should not be punished. He was taken 150 feet from where the body was found because the pavers they were keying in on are not the pavers where the body was found. Totally different.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schaffer says the most damming evidence of this video was staged for the defense is this, Hoover says Dominic Casey told him in November that the Anthonys knew the two private I`s were searching the house and these woods in the Anthony`s neighborhood where Caylee`s remains were later found but it wasn`t until December that Dominic Casey told Hoover the house is owned by a Gonzalez family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight to the lines, Stacey in Maryland. Hi, Stacey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a two-part question. (INAUDIBLE) always says that people commit crime and will visit the place that they`re comfortable with to get rid of that evidence.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is that do you think that Kronk was informed by an Anthony member because he frequented the site three times? And the second part of it is, what would the P.I.s have done if they found little Caylee`s body before the police did?

GRACE: To Ray Giudice, what is their duty under the law? What`s their ethical duty if they were to find a body or if they have any information? Are they under any type of confidentiality on the information?

GIUDICE: If they`re working for the attorney, they`re under an obligation, A, of confidentiality, but also to bring that -- information to the attorney who then has a real stickler of an ethical problem about turning that evidence over to the state. The answer is he probably will have to and then withdraw from the case. As far as a legal duty, no.

GRACE: It seems to me, Stacy Schneider, that Ray is partially right. I know that if they find a body, they`ve got to contact police. The lawyer does. But if they have information, do they have to turn that over? The private investigator to the lawyer?

SCHNEIDER: No.

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, it doesn`t matter. He`s not working for a lawyer. So scratch that whole -- Ray, don`t throw me off a scent here. He`s not working for a lawyer, so none of that even matters.

GIUDICE: If he`s working for the Casey family and not defending Miss Casey`s defendant.

GRACE: Correct.

GIUDICE: Yes, I think, I think he`s under a legal obligation not to obstruct justice and prevent -- and get that information.

GRACE: So in other words, Stacey, he`s got to tell police, yes, no?

SCHNEIDER: Right. If he`s not under the employ of a lawyer for the defense and he has found evidence, he could actually run into a danger of being charged with obstructing.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: OK.

SCHNEIDER: . the discovery of evidence for a trial.

GRACE: Susan Moss, agree or disagree?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And if that psychic told him that those papers -- those plastic bags were evidence and then he took a prod and started to destroy them, well, there`ll be two Caseys in a Florida jail.

GRACE: Right now, everyone, we are switching gears. I want to update you on a missing 6-year-old little boy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have increased their search for 6- year-old boy who has been missing since Saturday afternoon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 300 law enforcement officials from six counties are working together to find 6-year-old Adji Desir. They`re focusing their search inside Farm Workers Village, a 100-acre neighborhood in Immokalee.

Here there are numerous swamps and thick brush. There`s also more than 600 homes. Officials say this may have or could confuse little Adji.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are very concerned for the child who is developmentally disabled and can barely communicate. The sheriff`s office says they are leaving no stone unturned, including investigating whether or not the child was abducted and meeting with local sex offenders in the area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The tip line to help find this little boy, 239-774-TIPS, 774- 8477.

Take a look at Adji. He has the mind of a 2-year-old little boy. He understands only Creole. He can`t speak at all. He cannot communicate verbally.

Out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood 1, what`s the latest, Rory?

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO, COVERING STORY: Well, good evening, Nancy.

They`ve had another long day of searching but still so far no sign of the little boy. They`ve gone through all the houses in that farm workers neighborhood village. They`ve gone through virtually every house in Immokalee trying to find Adji but still no sign of him. And they`re going to keep on looking tomorrow but the search is being scaled down.

GRACE: Oh no.

To Jay Schlichter with the "Naples Daily News," what can you tell me, Jay?

JAY SCHLICHTER, ASSISTANT CONTENT EDITOR, NAPLES DAILY NEWS, COVERING STORY: Yes, good evening, Nancy. As Rory said, the search has been expanded. Each day they`ve expanded it.

The first day they`ve started out with a four-mile radius. The next day they went to an eight-mile. Today they went to a 12-mile radius and there is talk about tomorrow expanding that once again by another four miles and doing a 16-mile radius.

So at this point they`ve been going out even into the outskirts of Immokalee, I mean, way, way out into the woods where there`s very little but they are trying their best to find anything.

GRACE: Oh you said expanding, possibly expanding the search tomorrow. I thought he said scale back. OK, good to know.

SCHLICHTER: Well, well, that`s -- he`s right in both aspects. They plan to expand the radius, but they are also talking about scaling back because they`re talking -- they`ve had, like, between 150 to 300 law enforcement officers out there.

But they`re talking about tomorrow they`re not going to be able to have as many so they are going to be scaling back that, however, they are still asking volunteers to come out and help.

GRACE: This little boy is just 6 years old. He cannot verbally communicate. He has a mental capacity a 2-year-old child. He can only understand Creole. And the fear is he may actually try to hide from searchers. Not understanding what`s going on.

Joining me now, special guest, Lieutenant Tom Smith with Special Crimes Bureau, Collier County Sheriff`s Office.

Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. Describe the search.

LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, first, let me thank you, Nancy, for sharing with everyone this important information. You know that`s the most important thing is getting the public involved with this. I think that information.

GRACE: Well, Lieutenant, I cannot -- I cannot imagine going home tonight and going up to the twins` room and finding one of them gone. I can`t even imagine it. So I know this family is completely torn up. Describe the search for me.

SMITH: Well, absolutely, you know, as the search continues, you know, for the last 72 hours, that there`s been an equal balance in the investigation, you know, between the case being a wandering off disappearance versus an abduction.

However, as we start to conclude our complex ground searches and we pretty -- and we`re getting closer and close to eliminating that fact that he might be in the immediate area, then the balance tends to tilt a little farther towards someone being responsible for removing him from the village.

So that`s the cause of us kind of reducing the number of search people, our ATVs and things, and then focusing more on searching exterior roads and roads coming in and out of the communities and other areas.

GRACE: Lt. Smith, when you say "the village," what do you mean by that?

SMITH: This is a farm workers village. It`s a housing authority community consisting of about 600 homes, about 468 are occupied. And it`s a standalone community in the middle of a farm field.

GRACE: So are these migrant workers?

SMITH: They are migrant workers. But they`re permanent -- most of them are permanent migrant workers. They`re farm hands and they work at the packing houses.

GRACE: The little boy last seen playing outside and suddenly gone. His grandmother discovers he is gone after a day playing with little friends.

I want to go to Mike Brooks. What do you think, Mike?

BROOKS: You know, Nancy, you know, what the lieutenant just said as they search the area and they don`t find him in the particular area and they`ve -- they`re going to expand the search, you know, there is a possibility that someone took him off, you know, took him out of that area.

There`s always a possibility because they`ve been looking with helicopters, using infrared, looking for heat signatures. And he did disappear on Saturday. So if -- you know, if he was harmed by any kind of wildlife, those kind of things, you would not find a heat signature and you wouldn`t find a heat signature also, as the lieutenant would tell you, if someone took him away from that village.

GRACE: And Susan Moss, if someone has taken this child with a mind of a 2-year-old, the statistics would say the child is already dead but that`s not necessarily so.

MOSS: That`s correct. Probably the key is to speak to some of the other kids who he was playing with. Did they notice anything out of the ordinary? Any strange cars? Any people they didn`t know?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Volunteers Laurie Johns goes door to door.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m going to leave a flier here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going to several different neighborhoods.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been lost since Saturday night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And dozens of homes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So keep your eyes open for him, OK? He`s been missing since Saturday night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Laurie hopes it`s enough and will help bring Adji home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Volunteers searching for the 6-year-old little boy, little Adji, with the mind, the mental capacity of a 2-year-old.

We looked it up and sex offender registry shows about 22 known sex offenders in the immediate area of where little Adji went missing. The weather update if he is out in the elements, as well, luckily, mostly sunny.

Very quickly, to Lt. Tom Smith -- Lieutenant, it seems to me that you are now leaning toward the theory that the child was abducted. What do the little friends see? Did they see anything out of the ordinary?

SMITH: Well, I`d like to correct and just say that as we conclude clearing those areas then that tends to lead us that way.

GRACE: Right.

SMITH: We`re still -- we`re still focusing both directions.

GRACE: OK. But I mean, could a 6-year-old get 16 miles away?

SMITH: You know, you can`t underestimate the human will and spirit and 6-year-olds can be pretty determined and, you know, they can be quite mobile.

GRACE: You know, Lieutenant, I hope you`re right.

With me, Lt. Tom Smith, Jay Schlichter and Rory O`Neill. The tip line 239-774-8477.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant James McHale, 31, Fairfield, Montana, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Saved the life of eight others by donating his organs.

Loved playing games, animals, golfing, Irish whiskey. Leaves behind his parents, Joel and Bonnie, brother and best friend, Michael, also serving Iraq.

James McHale, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special thank you from the heart to the nurses, doctors and staff at Coliseum Northside Hospital for helping my mother get well after surgery.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 08:09:01 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Lee Anthony Reportedly May Seek Immunity

Aired January 14, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: In the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell tonight, tot mom brother Lee Anthony seeking criminal immunity! Reports surface Lee Anthony possibly facing obstruction and/or aiding and abetting charges. And is a deputy connected to the case now under investigation? The defense reeling in high-powered and typically high-priced experts, including one flying in from out of the country to challenge police cadaver dogs, a renowned forensic anthropologist.

And tonight, the psychic who claims she was the one on the phone, she was the one who led the Anthony private eye to Caylee`s remains weeks before police were alerted, is under credibility attack! And are there plans to cremate little Caylee? That would destroy any and all forensic evidence. Caylee`s remains still sitting alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, no funeral date in sight. Why?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I have the Caylees` (SIC) route Monday. There`s a swamp area that I saw something that I called on a tip the other day, and they said they would dispatch an officer out to me when I got there. And I`m here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County deputy who respond to the meter reader`s call back in August has a prior history of multiple complaints filed against him the last few years. But each time the, complaints were dismissed. Reports just released show Deputy Sheriff Richard Cain was previously accused of failing to properly investigate incidents, and now sources tell one Orlando CNN affiliate that Cain may now face disciplinary action for his handling of the meter reader tip`s in August.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a general feeling that maybe the department missed a golden opportunity to bring this case to a close in August?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a possibility. And that`s why, again, once it was made aware to us that maybe that had occurred, we went ahead and initiated an investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, another forensic expert has joined tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team. Scott Fairgrieve will be helping the defense as an expert consultant in the search, recovery and analysis of the remains of little Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a close-knit southwest Florida community reeling after a 6-year-old boy vanishes into thin air. The child has the mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate. Tonight, the crucial first 72 hours pass. The search goes on by land, by air, on foot, ATV, infrared helicopter. Where is 6-year-old little Adji?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of officers, five days of searching, little information, and still no Adji. Search crews have covered the immediate area around the boy`s neighborhood extensively. Now they`re moving the search radius farther away and focusing more heavily on the possibility of an abduction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re getting closer and closer to eliminating the fact that he might be in the immediate area. Then the balance tends to tilt a little farther towards someone being responsible for moving him from the village.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sheriff`s office is now using something called Mass-Fax, a program that gets out Adji`s info to agencies in surrounding areas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that goes out 99 miles from our location. So we really are extending well beyond Immokalee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives tonight are also going through mounds of trash collected at Farm Worker Village since Adji disappeared from there Saturday. And a team from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, called Team Adam, has been called in. Team members are retired cold case detectives who travel around the country to help find missing kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every one is different, but oftentimes a little piece of information from one case may shed light on another matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, tot mom brother Lee Anthony seeking criminal immunity, reports surface Lee Anthony possibly facing obstruction and/or aiding and abetting charges, this as the deputy connected to the case under investigation and the defense is reeling in high-powered and usually high- priced experts.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KRONK: I`m down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County sheriff`s deputy Richard Cain is under investigation for the way he handled the call made by Roy Kronk back on August 13th. Roy Kronk is the meter reader who persistently called the sheriff`s office to investigate the wooded area off of Suburban Drive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You talk to witnesses. You talk to the people who are accused, and you try to, you know, get as much of the message concerning complaint as you can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meter reader Roy Kronk says the sheriff`s deputy who met up with him along Suburban Drive on August 13th hardly gave him the time day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputy Cain dismissed the bag as trash only, and the matter is still under review. But Kronk did mention that his encounter with Cain wasn`t pleasant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KRONK: I`m not near any of the roads. I`m just in a swampy area that`s between where the Anthonys` road starts and Hidden Oaks. If they come around the corner, they can see me sitting here.

911 OPERATOR: OK, so you`re right past Hopespring?

KRONK: Right. Yes, I`m sitting facing the road in the opposite direction and I`m in a blue four-door Cavalier.

911 OPERATOR: I`ll have somebody out there as soon as I can.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: The worst he can say is that the police were not pleasant? OK, he`s got to hit me with more than that before he gets my attention.

Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer, on the story from the very beginning. Natisha, what can you tell me about possible immunity, criminal immunity, for tot mom brother Lee Anthony?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that is the big question tonight, Nancy, is will Lee Anthony get immunity? Apparently, his attorney, Thomas Luca, is worried that Lee could possibly face obstruction charges or aiding and abetting charges. Now, what he`s trying to do is seek a subpoena for Lee Anthony. If he`s given the subpoena, he would then get immunity. Now, the caveat is...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait, wait! If he`s given a subpoena, he automatically gets immunity?

LANCE: That`s right. Under Florida law, he would be given immunity. Now the caveat to that is, Nancy, if he`s given this immunity, he has to take stand in the murder trial. He cannot plead the 5th. He has to get up there, tell his story, tell exactly what he knows. If Casey did give him inside information, he has to spill it all on the stand during that murder trial.

GRACE: OK, let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining me tonight out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, veteran criminal defense attorney, Renee Rockwell. Also joining me out of New York, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former fed with the FBI.

Renee, try, put it in a nutshell. How do you get immunity by just getting a subpoena? That doesn`t sound right to me.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, if he`s potentially a target for any type of charges, if they want his testimony, they`re going to have to give him something in exchange, which equals immunity.

GRACE: I know that. But again, that wasn`t my question. Hugo Rodriguez...

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure.

GRACE: ... there`s more to getting immunity than a subpoena showing up in your mailbox via registered mail. You got to work out immunity deal.

RODRIGUEZ: No, not in the state of Florida, Nancy.

GRACE: Good. Explain.

RODRIGUEZ: The law in the state of Florida is if a state attorney subpoenas any witness, that witness has immunity.

GRACE: Oh, you`re talking about use immunity, not blanket immunity.

RODRIGUEZ: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

GRACE: OK. I understand.

RODRIGUEZ: So obviously, they want to talk to him. He doesn`t have a privilege. He doesn`t have a legal privilege...

GRACE: Right.

RODRIGUEZ: ... of any conversations he`s had with his sister or anyone else.

GRACE: And very quickly, explain the difference between use immunity and blanket immunity.

RODRIGUEZ: Anything he says to them, they cannot use against him in a criminal prosecution. If they could otherwise prove any other crime without use of his own words, they could still prosecute him.

GRACE: Now, let`s think about it. Why would tot mom brother Lee Anthony need criminal immunity? Let`s go to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first bailed the tot mom out of jail and then planned and executed an exhaustive search for little Caylee`s remains. Why would Lee Anthony need criminal immunity, Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Somebody had to get the information where the body was back on August the 11th, also to the private detectives. He might be part of that daisy chain I`ve been talking about.

GRACE: Oh, you and the daisy chain again!

PADILLA: Me and the daisy chain.

GRACE: Listen, under our criminal justice system, you do not -- as much as I may not like it -- you do not have a duty to be a good Samaritan. If you know where a body is, you don`t are to call police. You can just keep on going by. So the fact that Lee Anthony may have known -- they`re not even saying he did, but if he may have known where the body was, that does not equal criminal charges. You`ve got to -- a criminal charge, you`ve got to do more than know something, Leonard.

PADILLA: It does if you have the intention to foil the prosecution`s case by following that up with the "Zenaida did it, the other Zenaida did it," and your discovering the body...

GRACE: Ah. If you mislead police, knowing better. I understand now, an obstruction charge.

I want to go back out to Natisha Lance. Natisha, you stated that the attorney is seeking immunity for tot mom brother Lee Anthony. Is there any indication what he believes Anthony -- Lee Anthony`s involvement is?

LANCE: Well, he said that he may have information that police may misconstrue as him obstructing justice or aiding and abetting in this crime that Casey carried out. But did not get into specifics.

GRACE: That does not sound good, Leonard Padilla.

PADILLA: No, it doesn`t. No, it doesn`t.

GRACE: OK, you were the one in the home, Padilla, not me. Tell me, what was Lee Anthony`s attitude? How has he been? Has he been more concerned about the tot mom or about finding little Caylee?

PADILLA: He was -- when we originally got there, he was concerned about aiming us towards Jesse Grund. Then subsequently, he was very concerned about a search for Casey that his mother had sent him on, where he went looking for her around the 2nd or the 3rd of July. And he always carried a binder with a ton of notes. I told Nick Savage one day, Go get that binder. See what he`s got in there. But I don`t know if they ever did or didn`t.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last time we heard from Cindy Anthony was the day before Caylee was found. Now for the first time in more than a month, we`re learning what the grandmother might be thinking. In this e-mail obtained by Local 6, Cindy Anthony tells an acquaintance, quote, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee, and that will be proven. She loved her deeply." So does the grandmother truly believe Casey is innocent, even with the discovery of Caylee`s remains just blocks from their home? Based on this new e-mail, it appears Cindy`s opinion of her daughter has not changed.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER I do not believe that my daughter did any harm to her child. My daughter has been nothing but a loving mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, is tot mom brother Lee Anthony asking for criminal immunity? And if so, why? What is his involvement? What does he or did he know about the death of 2-year-old little Caylee? We are taking your calls live. This as we learn a sheriff`s deputy involved in a case is under investigation. And the defense is reeling in high-powered experts from across the world to challenge the state`s evidence.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Rhandi in Ohio. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi. Thank you for calling in. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My daughter and I and my sister just love you, and God bless your babies. In this...

GRACE: Did you hear that Lucy is walking?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. I heard it. Yes, we watch you every night. My question...

GRACE: She took 14 steps today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, good! My question is, on one of the interviews when Casey was talking to her parents, she was telling them that everything that she was saying was taken out of context and that she would be writing letters. Was it ever established who she wrote to and if they were ever mailed?

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if this could have been the time when the prosecutor or the private eye was investigating the empty house, the vacant house?

GRACE: Rhandi, I think that I`ve got your answer. It`s my understanding she was going to outline the whole thing in letter form to police. Did that ever happen? N-O. I`m sure her attorneys stopped that, nipped that in the bud. But long story short, she`s not going to dedicate anything to writing.

Let me go out to Nikki Pierce, WDBO. Nikki, was that the letter wasn`t she going to write police to give her statements as to what all happened?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s absolutely right, Nancy. She was going to write letters to the family. She was going to write letters to police. She was going to write letters to everyone explaining everything. And as far as we know, not a single letter was written.

GRACE: Out to Lucy in Georgia. Hi, Lucy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.

GRACE: How are you? What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m good. It`s more of a little comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I followed this since day one because she`s about the same age as my grandson. And Caylee`s birth date was, I think, August 9th. And just a couple of days later, the meter reader called in. I just thought that was a coincidence, and nobody`s mentioned that. And Casey always said she`ll be home for her birthday. She feels it in her gut. You know she feels things in her gut.

GRACE: And so Lucy, what is your suggestion?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That maybe there may have been a leak. I mean, it`s just kind of strange.

GRACE: A leak. A leak.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: Regarding where the -- oh, I see where you`re going. I`m connecting the dots.

Let`s go out again to Leonard Padilla. I believe Caylee`s birthday was August the 9th. Do you think there`s a connection? Does it relate back to the tot mom saying she`ll be home for her third birthday? Did she leak the info for her body to be found? I`m not buying that.

PADILLA: Well, I am because I`ll tell you why. When he took that cop out there on the 13th, Richard Cain, he took him to the wrong area. He was 120 feet off. That cop should not be -- you know, there shouldn`t be no charges against him. He had him in the wrong area because he`d been given the wrong area, just like the private detective was given the wrong area. Everybody`s focusing on the building blocks that were found. Well, there`s two stacks of building blocks. They took them to the wrong building block stack.

GRACE: Let`s talk about the sheriff`s deputy under investigation. What about it, Nikki Pierce?

PIERCE: Well, it looks like they`re looking at Richard Cain. They`re doing an internal investigation to see if he derelict in any way that day. Roy Kronk does say that on the third time that he called, which was August 13th, that Richard Cain came out. He says that he walked up to the edge of the water that was there at the time, kind of looked around, poked his stick in, and said that he didn`t see anything. And he wrote up his report saying, "Garbage only.

it hasn`t been exactly established, though, if that same bag that he was talking about then is the exact same bag that he was talking about on December 11th. So this investigation is very much under way. It`s still ongoing. So we don`t know what the outcome of that is going to be yet.

GRACE: Well, it seems to me -- back to Natisha Lance, our producer -- that when Kronk went to the airwaves -- took to the airwaves to exonerate himself of any alleged wrongdoing, the worst thing he had to say about the cops is that they were not pleasant.

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. He did say that they were rude to him.

GRACE: After I dealt with speeders and dopers and hookers and child beaters all day long, if I were a cop, I doubt I`d be pleasant, either. So what`s his allegations, the cop was rude?

LANCE: He did say that the cop was rude to him. But I`ve got to tell you, Nancy, I did speak to another meter reader who was out there with Roy Kronk on August 11th. Now, his name is David Dean (ph). He said that he was out there with Kronk. He said they were in the area. Kronk went to relieve himself, to go to the bathroom, again as he did on December 9th, when the remains were found. He said that he and another meter reader stayed on the roadway. When Kronk came back, he didn`t tell me what Kronk said to him, but he did say that after that time -- they all left together -- and Kronk later on that evening called authorities.

GRACE: Interesting. My problem isn`t that the cop may have been rude, which of course, nobody likes. Cops have been rude to me plenty every time I ever got pulled over for running a stop sign or something. But my problem is, if he had completely followed up on the tip, would he have found little Caylee`s body? Could this in any way have changed the investigation? Would police have found more evidence on the remains or around the remains?

That`s the big problem, Marc Klaas -- Marc Klaas joining me, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Of course, Marc, cops are always under attack. They`re damned if they do. They`re damned if they don`t. No matter what they do, they`re going to be attacked at trial. That`s part of the job.

But I don`t care if he was rude. Of course he was rude. But you know, he gets called out. He can`t find anything. So he could be, in his mind, pursuing a real crime. So I can see him maybe being curt -- not that it`s OK, but that`s not the end of the world. My problem is, did he not investigate thoroughly, and did it hurt this murder investigation?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that`s entirely possible. I mean, we have to understand that there are bad players in every profession. There`s bad cops. There`s bad advocates. And certainly, there are bad television reporters, although none of them work for CNN. So the possibility that this individual...

GRACE: Well, this is Headline News, so I hope you`re including us under that umbrella, but thank you.

KLAAS: Of course I`m including you. Of course I am. But the possibility that this player is incompetent is absolutely real. And unfortunately, it then reflects on the entire department. Fortunately, though, the meter reader had the presence of mind to continually go back to that location until his curiosity was satisfied and the case was finally cracked.

GRACE: Well, here is the meter reader, who has been under attack himself. This is the guy that actually led police to the remains, would still be looking for them if it hadn`t been for this meter reader. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRONK: I called that night about 9:30, 10:00 o`clock, and they said, OK. And then nothing happened. No one called me back. I called them again the next night about 9:30, 10:00 o`clock. They told me to call Crimeline. I didn`t want to call Crimeline. I just wanted to stay as anonymous as possible. And so I called Crimeline, and they said they`d have an officer meet me out there. So the next day when I got off work, I drove over there. I called. The officer showed up. He pulls an expandable metal baton out and went down to the water`s edge. I pointed in the area where it was at. He just swept his head back and forth and said, I don`t see anything. And pretty much, that was it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was Roy Kronk on "Good Morning America," describing his frustration after calling police many times about little Caylee`s remains. Now he`s under attack for doing the right thing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The deputy sheriff who investigated the meter reader`s tip back in August has been previously accused of failing to properly investigate incidents, but the complaints couldn`t be substantiated. According to reports, Deputy Sheriff Richard Cain may now face disciplinary action for what transpired back at the remains site back in August, where meter reader Roy Kronk says the officer did not do a thorough search and deputies were uninterested in following up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And to top it all off, the psychic who claims to have been on the phone with the Anthonys` private eye when he`s this close to Caylee`s remains is now under credibility attack.

What about it, Kathi Belich?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, we got a call after your show last night from a woman in Virginia, who says when her niece was murdered almost 20 years ago, she and her sister, the victim`s mother, went to psychic Ginnette Lucas for some help, paid her about $5,000, and got very useless information in return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In August the sheriff`s office says Deputy Cain responded to the meter reader`s call but cleared the call after he said all that was found was trash. Of course, that`s same spot Caylee`s remains were found a few months later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 40-year-old patrol deputy has become the focus of an administrative review. The Sheriff`s Professional Standards Office is trying to figure out if any policies were violated when the deputy responded to a call that could have solved the Caylee Anthony mystery way back in August.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t the first time that Cain has dealt with the Office of Professional Standards. In 2007 he was accused of failing to properly investigate a call. And in 2006, he was accused of non- investigating an issue as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So far Deputy Cain has not been suspended or otherwise disciplined for his actions back in August.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re totally reviewing it. That`s why we have a very professional, professional standards division. We missed a window of opportunity, we`ll get to the bottom of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The Anthonys` private investigator is there at the scene with little Caylee`s remains weeks before cops were alerted to the remains. Why? Now, the woman who says she was the one on the phone who directed him to the scene is under credibility attack.

It`s a domino chain here. If her credibility falls, then the P.I.`s credibility falls. Then the Anthonys` credibility falls. Then the tot mom`s credibility falls.

Let`s talk about the attack of the credibility of the psychic. Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV.

Kathi, put it in a nutshell for me. Who is attacking her credibility and why?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: OK. It`s the end of a murder victim 20 years back in Virginia. She said she and her sister, the victim`s mother, were desperate after a month after the murder to find the killer. They heard about Ginnette. They went to her. She says they -- paid Ginnette about $5,000 from their credit cards.

And only about.

GRACE: Ouch.

BELICH: And only got useless information. And they live close to several military bases. And she was telling them things like the killer was a soldier with a red car. She gave them tag numbers that were not legitimate tag numbers and then when their money ran out, so did her clues. And she just -- she believes that she`s a fake.

GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York. You know I`m tempted to muse. You know, you pay a psychic, and the tips don`t solve the crime.

Can you really blame the psychic? Or is it throwing good money after bad?

On the other hand, Caryn Stark, people are desperate after becoming a tangential victim of murder such as a murder victim`s family. They`re willing do anything when you have missing children. A lot of times people seek out psychics.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: And you really can`t blame them, Nancy, because they are so much wanting to find out what happened. When it comes to a psychic, you hear stories about the fact that they were able to find bodies and do all kinds of amazing things.

But they`re fallible just like you would be and I would be. So I wouldn`t be surprised if sometimes she would make mistakes. Sometimes get it right.

GRACE: But what about the allegation that Kathi Belich from WFTV has outlined, that she kept feeding the psychic money to the tune of $5,000 and as soon as they didn`t have anymore money, that was the end of the clues.

STARK: Well, if there`s that adverse component to it, then we have to assume that she really isn`t a valid psychic, if there is such a thing, and she`s just out to be a part of all of the circus that`s surrounding this trial -- this person.

GRACE: And according to her who was on the show with us last night, she led the private I to this location. She -- came to her in a dream.

And Caryn Stark, I would never, ever bring a psychic into a murder investigation.

Let me about to Marc Klaas.

Marc, you know this having been a crime victim yourself, after the death of your daughter, Polly, when you are facing a missing child, a murdered loved one -- you`ll do anything. You`re desperate for answers. And I don`t blame anyone for seeking a psychic.

But you can`t bring it into trial or a jury may decide you`re the nut. That the state`s case is the problem if you`re going to a psychic. And they might throw out the baby with the bathwater.

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, that`s entirely true. And to the point that this woman took $5,000 and stopped giving clues when the money ran out, I think that that`s predatory, Nancy. You know there`s an old adage if you put.

GRACE: If, if, if, if it`s true. If it`s true. OK, what is your old adage?

KLAAS: If it`s true, if it`s true, it`s predatory. There`s an old adage that if you put enough monkeys in a room with typewriters they will eventually make Shakespeare. Well, it`s also true that if you put enough push pins into a map you`re going to come up with a positive hit.

Now psychics give broad generalities that allow them ultimately to say they`ve been able to solve a case. On the west coast, they`ll say, I see mountains. I hear a babbling brook. I see a road. I see an outbuilding. Well, you have just described 95 percent of California.

If they say, I see cactus and I see sand dunes, they`ve just described 95 percent of Arizona. In Florida, I see flat land. I see marches and I see alligators.

I think psychics should not be consulted in these situations. They never solve the cases. The police don`t want them in. That`s the end of the story, as far as I`m concerned with psychics.

GRACE: Back to evidence that will likely be admitted at trial.

To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins University.

Dr. Makary, the defense has called in a renowned anthropologist, a forensic anthropologist. His name is Scott Fairgrave. What is the role in this case of a forensic anthropologist?

How could an anthropologist attack the credibility of police cadaver dogs?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Yes, Dr. Fairgrave is a fairly respected anthropologist in Ontario, Canada.

GRACE: Yes, he is.

MAKARY: But you know what, he`s got a long title. Lawyers, I know, love long titles for trials and jurors can say this an expert. I can only assume that this is to challenge the autopsy results of the other two autopsies done by many other forensic experts, including two forensic anthropologists.

GRACE: And Dr. Makary, I want to talk to you, back to the evidence, what will come in at trial. My mind keeps going over and over and over. What the state is going to produce. How it`s going to be attacked.

Is it possible to examine the air inside of that plastic bag found near Caylee`s remains? By that time, could it even be remotely similar to what was found in the trunk of the car?

MAKARY: It`s possible. But, look, it only takes a microscopic air leak for air to seep out. When you`re talking about air samples you`re talking about actual particles from the decomposed area. So it is, I think, a long shot.

The bottom line is, all these autopsies, with all of these experts.

GRACE: Right.

MAKARY: . with all of these people with long titles have shown no mechanism whatsoever. That`s a problem.

GRACE: Back to Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s officer, Santa Rosa County, Florida.

Sergeant, I want to go back to the sheriff`s deputy that is under investigation. All right, I`ll just give it to you, he was rude. All right. He was harsh. But my problem is, did -- shouldn`t he have gone into the water, the swampy water, and looked?

If Kronk said, there`s something suspicious in there, I`ve called about it before, I think it could be Caylee`s remains.

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL.: Absolutely, especially with a case like this. Wherever the point of this object was, where he pointed out, he should have went in and looked. But it goes back to if he was pointing in the right direction, or if he may have saw something before he got there. He thought he looked at it and didn`t go in far enough.

I`m sure that will be looked into but he definitely should have made a thorough search of the area.

GRACE: And what is the worst he could face?

HAINES: Well, different departments have different policies.

GRACE: Such as?

HAINES: So it all.

GRACE: Just give it to me. What`s the worst? What`s the lightest?

HAINES: He could -- he could face verb counsel all the way to days off. I`m doubt that would carry any type of termination.

GRACE: Days off without pay?

HAINES: Yes, most of the time days off without pay.

GRACE: Could he be fired? Could he be fired?

HAINES: I highly doubt unless he had previous substantial discipline.

GRACE: Yes.

HAINES: . then that would be offense for termination.

GRACE: Well, let`s get right back to the trial.

To Renee Rockwell, Hugo Rodriguez. Hugo, is it much ado about nothing? Because even if he was derelict in his duties, can the defense in some way -- will it affect the trial? Can the defense use it to their benefit?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: Could of, should of, would of, I doubt it very seriously. Law enforcement really doesn`t have a legal obligation to do these things unless there`s something much more or they can show some contamination of that crime scene or a spoilage. I doubt very seriously that.

GRACE: OK. Hugo, surprisingly, I disagree with you.

RODRIGUEZ: I`m not surprised.

GRACE: Renee. Renee, if the cop had looked into the swamp, the remains would have been found much earlier. Now the defense can argue, wrong or right, that tot mom was in jail when the remains were deposited there.

Get it? That`s problem.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s the problem, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: But the bigger problem would have been, had the child not been discovered and been alive and could the death have been prevented if he did something further. I think it is much to do about nothing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an interview with "Good Morning America," meter reader Roy Kronk says the sheriff`s deputy who met up with him along Suburban Drive on August 13th hardly gave him the time of day.

A source close to the investigation says disciplinary action is expected against that deputy because of concerns about his truthfulness answering their question. A sheriff`s spokesman would only confirm that that internal investigation is ongoing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Very quickly, out to the lines. Lisa in New York, hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Anybody has an attorney, Casey has an attorney. Lee has an attorney. The parents have an attorney. The parents have private investigator. The lawyer has a private investigator. They`ve cost a lot of money.

My question is, is it legal to make a profit even from a book or a movie for someone who is accused in criminal case?

GRACE: For someone that is accused in a criminal case, is that what you are saying?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: Can they make money? OK, here`s the lowdown on that. For many, many years we had what is called the Son of Sam Law. It was named after the son of Sam, a serial killer in New York -- Berkowitz.

And what happened in the end was, this went up on appeal by Simon and Schuster, a book publisher who wanted to publish a book about the mob. A true book. Son of Sam Laws have now been reversed.

In their place, other laws have come up. And I believe in a jurisdiction of Florida, there is in place a law that does not allow profit from criminal notoriety. So the fact that the tot mom might write a book or sell her story, she may not be able to profit off of it, but other people in her family may be able to.

That`s the short story. People like O.J. Simpson profiting off of illegal activity, he evaded the law from paying his judgment for many, many years. Once you get a judgment in civil court, you`ve got to enforce it.

In other words, catch the wrongdoer when they`ve got money so the victim`s family is really in a hard spot because they`ve got to foot the bill to catch the money while the perpetrator has the money. It`s a very difficult spot for victim`s families.

Out to Donna in Georgia, hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You have a lot of fans in/around Valdosta, Georgia.

GRACE: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: I went to school at VSC.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you did. It`s a university now.

GRACE: Yes, it is, Valdosta State -- Valdosta University.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: And in fact, been to that baseball field many, many times.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Number one, the little book that we see Caylee looking at in the nursing home.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . was that found near the crime scene? Number two, will they be able to detect any chloroform in either the hair or the bones that were found.

GRACE: Natisha Lance, was the book found at the crime scene? Yes, no?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No. Well, we don`t know for sure.

GRACE: OK. That`s all I want to hear. We don`t know.

LANCE: We don`t.

GRACE: Dr. Marty Makary, I`ve got to get to another story about a missing boy. Tell me at this juncture, could chloroform show up in the remains?

MAKARY: Absolutely, yes, they can look for it. I think that this new guy is going to try to mess with the timeline.

GRACE: So, yes? Yes, it would still show up six months later?

MAKARY: Yes.

GRACE: OK, I`m just a lawyer. But I find that hard to believe. You`re the doctor, so I`ll take my medicine.

Tina in New York, what`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know if trash was really found near the body or if it was possible that with the water and stuff that the trash could have floated away and maybe it was just trash at the point when the police officer was there?

GRACE: Nikki Pierce?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, there`s a lot of trash out in that area. It is an area where teens have hung out. There`s trash and all sorts of.

GRACE: So it could be just trash?

PIERCE: It could have been, yes.

GRACE: OK. Hate to cut you off like that, Nikki. But I want everyone to find out about this 6-year-old missing boy. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for missing Florida 6-year-old Adji has entered its fifth day, with about 100 deputies and a helicopter overhead looking for any signs of the boy.

Investigators confirm that they`re also conducting a parallel investigation to try to determine whether or not the child was abducted.

LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: There`s been an equal balance in the investigation, you know, between the case being a wandering off disappearance versus an abduction.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sheriff`s office has ruled out immediate family members as suspects in any possible abduction and are now going door-to-door in the area, getting the names of people in each home and interviewing them.

SMITH: This is a farm workers village. It`s a housing authority community consisting of about 600 homes, about 468 are occupied. And it is a standalone community in the middle of a farm field.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say the (INAUDIBLE) has been fully searched but insist they will continue their investigation until the boy is found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Please help us find this boy. He has a mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate.

To Marisa Brahney with WBBH standing there near the boy`s home.

Marisa, what can you tell us tonight?

MARISA BRAHNEY, REPORTER, WBBH, ON LOCATION AT BOY`S HOME: Well, Nancy, the investigation has shifted in some ways today. Investigators, as you said, went again around this neighborhood here in Farm Workers Village.

They went into every home here. They interviewed all of the people who live here. And every resident here in this community did give investigators consent to actually go ahead and search their homes.

Investigators tell us tonight the neighborhood is cleared. As mentioned there in that story, the family also cleared in this investigation. So lack of information, lack of viable tips. If police are dealing with an abduction or simply a wandering off disappearance, that continues to be the biggest challenge.

GRACE: Jay Schlichter with "Naples Daily News," is there a reward, Jay?

JAY SCHLICHTER, ASSISTANT CONTENT EDITOR, NAPLES DAILY NEWS, COVERING STORY: Yes, there has. It started out with just $1,000 but it has been steadily increasing as the minutes go by.

Today, it was earlier increased to $3500 and then a local businessman in Collier County increased it by another $3,000. And there`s actually also talk of another business in Ft. Myers in the surrounding communities continuing to offer more money for a reward.

GRACE: Tip line, 239-774-8477. There`s a chance we can find this boy alive.

Lt. Tom Smith, special guest, Special Crimes Bureau, Collier County Sheriff`s Office, Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. Lieutenant, is there any hope the boy can be found alive some?

SMITH: You know you can`t give up hope. There`s been many, many times where children have disappeared into the wilderness and have been found many days later. Obviously, the cold, it`s going to be in the 30s, early in the morning is a concern, but we`re concentrating our efforts as best as we can to find this young man.

GRACE: You know I`ve heard police reports that we`ve got to give this boy credit for fending for himself. I -- can`t believe that. He`s got the mind of a 2-year-old. He can`t fend for himself.

SMITH: Well, you know, I think you do have some difficulty when you have the mind of a 2-year-old and the body of a 6-year-old and fending for himself may not be the right term, but I -- but I think that we`re looking at a 2-year-old that has the strength of a 6-year-old and probably the willpower of such.

GRACE: Marc Klaas what do you think?

KLAAS: Well, first of all, the whole idea of being -- the concept of being lost doesn`t even kick in until a child is about 3 years old, but I can give you some very stark statistics here.

In 95 percent of the historical cases studied a 6-year-old in flat terrain with tempered conditions travels 4.1 miles and in 196 studied cases only one child survived after 96 hours, the rest were found dead under a variety of circumstances.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: We`re getting closer and closer to eliminating the fact that he might be in the immediate area then the balance tend to the tilt farther towards someone being responsible for moving him from the village.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 6-year-old little boy vanishes into thin air.

Joining us from WBBH, Marisa Brahney. Marisa, the parents have totally been cleared. How are they holding up?

BRAHNEY: Nancy, the family obviously is devastated as any family would be. The grandmother was the one actually looking after the boy when he was playing out in the front yard.

It was one of those cases where she says she saw him, she checked on him out the window in one minute and then the next time she looked out he was gone. The mother also very shaken.

The boy`s father actually lives in Haiti. He has been in Haiti this whole time and investigators in the case tell us he also has been cleared in this. He also does have a stepfather who lives with the mother and grandmother here in the community of Immokalee. He, too, is cleared.

And one other thing, detectives also have asked these family members if anyone else may be involved in the family, may want to hurt him or take him for some reason and they ruled that out as well.

GRACE: Lt. Smith, the grandmother had been watching him. I mean I was practically raised by my grandmother. She must feel so guilty even though this was not her fault.

SMITH: You know, she`s -- praying that there`s a safe recovery.

GRACE: Yes.

SMITH: . and, you know, it`s a very difficult situation, and she -- I`m sure she feels a lot of guilt.

GRACE: Lieutenant, we are all praying. The tip line, 239-774-8477 and now let`s remember Army Staff Sergeant Brian Miller, 37, Pendleton, Indiana, killed in Iraq. Highly decorated with the Army Achievement Medal, Humanitarian Service medal, Armed Forces Reserve medal.

Also served as an assistant in Mississippi after Katrina. Loved his family, God and country, leaves behind mom, Donna, sister Tammy, brother Kevin, widow Becky, daughter Nicky, son Aspen.

Brian Miller, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us and tonight, a special good night from journalism students in Atlanta St. Pius Catholic, Patrick, Molly, Alejandra, Nick, Connie, Avery, Michael, Jackson, Caroline, Aaron, Kelly, David, Malia and teacher Ashley.

That was a mouthful and what a beautiful bunch.

I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 is sharp Eastern, and until then, good night friend.


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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2009, 08:38:35 AM »

NANCY GRACE

U.S. Airways Plane Crashes in Hudson River

Aired January 15, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! Incredible, Nancy. Thank you. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Brace for impact -- the last words nearly 200 passengers on a packed U.S. Air flight hear before slamming into the freezing Hudson River, temperatures only 8 degrees, passengers struggling out of the plane debris, huddling on freezing airplane wings, lifejackets strung around their necks, the Coast Guard racing to rescue them. Tonight, the crash of U.S. Air flight 1549.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within a couple of minutes, all of a sudden, you just heard a loud bang and the plane shook a bit. And immediately -- you could smell, like, smoke, like, fire, and immediately, the plane basically just started turning in another direction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are pictures of an incredible scene. U.A S. Airways plane taking off from La Guardia goes down into the Hudson River. The plane was submerged in the icy waters up to the windows. Rescue crews opened the doors and were pulling passengers in yellow lifevests from the plane. Reports say 146 passengers and five crew members were on board.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty scary, man. Like, I thought he was going to say circle back to La Guardia because I`ve flown out of La Guardia a lot, and I knew you could come around this way and circle in on that the runway over there. And he goes, Just brace for impact. I said, Oh, (DELETED)!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.

Bombshell. Just released, new jailhouse video. In a tense confrontation, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony visit tot mom behind bars. We have the video. Tonight, a reward is claimed in the Caylee Anthony search, and a deputy connected to the case now under investigation pulled off duty. Why?

And confirmed, the attorney for Lee Anthony announces tot mom brother is seeking criminal immunity. Why? Why does Lee Anthony want criminal immunity? This means the entire family of the tot mom wants to cooperate with police.

And we just learn tot mom`s excuse for a no-show in court last week. She blames her lawyer. As her daughter`s remains sit all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, her whole family under suspicion and seeking immunity, tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars ordering up tasty treats for herself, expensive bottled water, chocolate, fruit cocktail, a headset, deck of cards, all to enjoy at her leisure in her private jail cell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Someone just said that Caylee (INAUDIBLE) that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Surprise, surprise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Orange County`s sheriff`s office has just released more jailhouse video of tot mom Casey Anthony visiting with parents George and Cindy.

CASEY ANTHONY: Someone just sent me some of the stuff that`s been on line, comments that people have been leaving off of certain articles, I guess, that have been written, and it was very upsetting last night to see that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The video was from an August 14th visit to the jail by the grandparents before the tot mom was indicted for murder and Caylee`s skull and bones were found. Meanwhile, deputy sheriff Richard Cain (ph), who investigated the meter reader`s tips back in August, has now been temporarily removed from uniform patrol and has been reassigned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looks white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. A U.S. Air Airbus A320 packed with nearly 200 passengers slams into the freezing Hudson River.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) going on, all of a sudden, the captain came on and said, Brace for impact.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This Airbus 320, a U.S. Airways flight number 1549, taking off from New York bound for Charlotte, took off from runway 4 at La Guardia and was airborne only for about three minutes before it went down into the water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I then saw the plane hit the water. It made a big splash.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the FAA, eyewitnesses said they saw this plane hit a flock of birds, other sources who have said the pilot radioed in saying that he had a double bird strike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was smoke. There was fire. He flew around Manhattan and saw the Hudson River on the west side of Manhattan, and then he told the passengers to prepare for impact, belly first into the surface of the Hudson River.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dumped it, and the plane started filling with water really quick, and every one of us was super-cool.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you get out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luck of God, man. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The shell of the plane quickly filling up with the icy water of the Hudson River. You are seeing video right now as U.S. Coast Guard and ferries race out to try to save the crash victims.

Joining me right now near the crash scene is Mary Snow. Mary, what happened?

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, just a tale of a miracle, as the governor of the state has put it. And if you can see right behind me on the left side -- it`s kind of hard because it`s so dark out -- is where flight 1549 -- this is the aircraft, about roughly two miles from where it first made impact on the Hudson River. Nancy, the strong currents had this plane floating down here.

And there are so many amazing stories coming out of New York City tonight, Nancy, as passengers talk about what it was like to be on that flight around 3:03 this afternoon after taking off from La Guardia airport, heading to Charlotte, North Carolina. Passengers say about three minutes in, they felt the plane losing ground. What`s really -- what we`ve been hearing about from a number of passengers is just how calm the pilots stayed. And there are so many kudos out to that pilot tonight, many saying that his heroism really helped save the day.

I just talked to a diver, who described the scene when he got to the Hudson River on this very frigid day, a very strong current. He described seeing liferafts, also ferries pulling up to the plane to get people out of the plane and to safety. As we now know, there were 155 people on board, and it`s reported everybody has been recovered and five of those people were crew members.

The mayor of New York, Mike Bloomberg this afternoon, saying that one of the people on the plane was carrying an infant, and they were taken to hospitals in New Jersey. From what we know, what we`re hearing from officials is that everyone was in stable condition. There were many people suffering, obviously, from hypothermia.

But you know, in talking to one of the passengers this afternoon, he described hearing an explosion on one of the engines toward the back of the plane, also reported seeing flames and then hearing the pilot come on and say, Prepare for impact, and then the plane hit the water belly up. Several hours now later, we`re seeing that plane submerged in water. What you can just see is one of the wings bobbing on the Hudson River tonight, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to what the passengers had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first, there was a little bit of a panic, but there were a couple people who just kind of took charge and just started yelling to calm down, you know, to just get everybody out. And once I think people realized that we were going to be OK, everybody kind of calmed down and just tried to get outside of the boat, and you know, get to safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within a couple of minutes, all of a sudden, you just heard a loud bang and the plane shook a bit. And immediately, you know, you could smell, like, smoke, like, fire. And immediately, the plane basically just started turning in another direction, although it didn`t seem like it was out of control. We knew something was going on, like, we were turning back, and you know, nothing was happening. The smoke was still -- you could still smell it. No one knew what was going on.

All of a sudden, the captain came on and said, Brace for impact, and that`s when we knew we were going down and it seemed like into the water. And we just -- and we just hit. And somehow, the plane, you know, stayed afloat and we were all able to get on the rafts and -- it`s just incredible right now that everybody`s still alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining me right now, Ben Von Klemperer, who witnessed the plane crash. Welcome, sir. What did you see?

BEN VON KLEMPERER, WITNESSED PLANE CRASH INTO RIVER: Well, basically, I was sitting in my office, which is on the 25th floor of a building that`s located just a few blocks north of Times Square in New York City, 48th Street and Broadway, for those that are locals.

Basically, I saw a plane, which looked to be a small commercial aircraft, come into my field of vision from the right side of my frame. So right away, I knew that something was wrong because you generally don`t see airplanes or any air traffic, really, over the Hudson River. I watched the plane probably for about five to seven seconds. It made a very gradual descent down towards the river. The best way I can really describe it is it looked like a routine landing of a plane at any airplane anywhere, except for approaching the tarmac, it landed on the Hudson River.

I saw it hit the water. When it hit the water, my eye was really focused on the tail of the plane. It made a big splash, obviously. The splash probably went up to about three times the size of the height of the tailfin. And then very quickly, the plane moved south along the river, for really a split second before my view was obstructed. But essentially, the only way I can describe it is a very calm, very controlled landing...

GRACE: Incredible. Incredible.

Out to George Davis, commercial airline pilot who flies the A320 Airbus. George, what do you make of the landing? And is it true, could it be that this plunge into the icy Hudson River was because of a flock of birds?

GEORGE DAVIS, AIRLINE PILOT: It is very possible, Nancy. We take precautions all the time for birds. The towers tell us a lot of times that there is bird activity in the vicinity of the airport, so we`re supposed to take caution and to keep a lookout.

However, this situation might have occurred right on the runway, when the pilots were beyond the point where they could stop the airplane, and it might have occurred in a situation where they could not control the airplane to avoid the birds. So it sounds to me like either they lost both engines because of the birds or they lost one and maybe had a degraded situation on the other engine because of the birds.

GRACE: Right. You are seeing a live shot as we speak, flight 1549 in the icy Hudson River.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hit the river, and it was quite an impact. The plane stayed together. Probably a lot of folks were worried it might split up, but it didn`t. And it was sort of (INAUDIBLE) with the nose kind of sticking (ph) out. And people were very orderly. There wasn`t really a lot of panic. And we made it out the exit doors onto the wing.

And then people were trying to make their way to the rafts that were extending from the plane`s fuselage. A few people went in the water, but I think they all got out. And we just were really looking for the boats at that point, and helicopters. You know, obviously, if you`re going to crash a plane, the Hudson River is a good place to do it.

We were still on the ascent and the engine blew out, and then the pilot turned around, made a line for the river. There was just a lot of silence. And obviously, everyone was just waiting to hear what the pilot would say. And a few moments went by and he just said, Prepare for impact. And then we went into the water.

And I`ve got to tell you, I`ve flown in a lot of planes. That was a phenomenal landing on the part of the pilots. I really want to thank them. And by the grace of God, I think everyone made it off the plane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A packed Airbus slams into the icy Hudson River. When people look out, they see the passengers, their lifejackets strung around their necks, including a mom with an infant, huddled on the wings as the Coast Guard and ferries race to make recovery.

Out to Mary Schiavo, former inspector general with the U.S. Department of Transportation. She`s also an aviation attorney. Mary, thank you for being with us. How common are these so-called bird strikes?

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSP. GEN., DEPT. OF TRANS., AVIATION ATTORNEY: Well, they`re very common. There are a lot of things that the airports have around them, such as noise canons, but the problem is that the birds get used to them. Like Pavlov`s dogs, they`re used to the sound, and after a while, they don`t work anymore.

And as somebody -- I was in and out of La Guardia twice today and it was very cold, but eventually, it cleared up. And obviously, once the planes were flying, the birds weren`t walking, either.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. Out to Cassandra in Florida. Hi, Cassandra.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m so glad to talk to you finally.

GRACE: Likewise. Thank you for watching. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I have a comment first. I just want to let everyone know that I think you`re a true inspiration to everyone, and I hope I can only -- I aspire to only be half the person that you are. My question...

GRACE: I do not deserve that, first of all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you do.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is there going to be any additional information that we`re going to be able to determine from the black box, if it`s been pulled or if...

GRACE: Excellent question. Back to Mary Schiavo, former inspector general with the U.S. Department of Transportation. Mary, what about that? I mean, we`re all assuming it was a bird strike, but what about Cassandra`s question?

SCHIAVO: Yes, absolutely. The black boxes will record. On this plane, it has a number of (INAUDIBLE) expanded parameter. It will pick up all kinds of readings from the engine, what happened to it as it cools down, if it was -- if they both stopped. But here, in addition, of course, you have both pilots alive and able to tell us. And so the combination of those two, we will have a perfect picture of what happened on that plane. And quite frankly, the NTSB will probably know by the morning.

GRACE: To Justin Green, aviation attorney and a former Marine pilot. If it is because of a bird strike -- I mean, we`re hearing it was the Canada goose or a flock of them. They are huge birds. If this is correct, if it was a bird strike, what will that be considered, an act of God, or is there legal liability?

JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: It could be considered an act of God, but you also have to consider whether the birds should have been in the vicinity of the airport. Mary talked a little while ago about the efforts that the airport authority is required under federal aviation regulations to take to prevent geese, of this size particularly, from being in the vicinity of the airport.

We gave your staff a study that my firm prepared a year ago dealing with the bird strike problem, but also specifically with the problems that La Guardia has had with bird strikes, especially with the geese population in the vicinity.

And one of the interesting things in the article is when the airport authority decided to cull some of these geese, they got in trouble with animal rights activists. So it`s an interesting question about who might be possibly liable.

GRACE: Right.

GREEN: Obviously, there are shared responsibilities. It could be the airline. From what I see, the pilots did everything right. The pilot did absolutely everything right.

GRACE: Agreed. Out to Mike Brooks. What about it? Weigh in.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Nancy, I think the response -- the first responders -- you know, first of all, hats off to the captain and the first officer and those flight attendants. You know, everybody gets on board an airplane, they think that the flight attendants are there to serve them drinks and peanuts, but their main job is safety and they played a key role in saving people`s lives today.

And those ferries, Nancy, they are actually part of the pre-plan for a waterborne event in the Hudson River, so they were notified by the first responders. They were acting as first responders, along with FDNY and NYPD.

GRACE: Joining me right now, Gregory Feith, former investigator in charge with the NTSB go team. Gregory, thank you for being with us. Weigh in.

GREGORY FEITH, FMR. INVESTIGATOR, NTSB "GO TEAM": Hi, Nancy. Well, listening to the other comments, Mary, and of course -- one of the things about the birds is the fact that it`s been a problem for a very long time. And when you look at the size of the bird here -- that is a Canadian goose. That`s about 18 to 20 pounds. That`s like throwing a bowling ball in that engine. Now, this engine on this particular...

GRACE: Well, now, wait a minute. Gregory, I`m all -- I understand that, but you know, they were there first up in the air.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: It would seem to me that by this time, 2009, we would have some type of a technology to deal with it. It`s not as if we don`t know they`re up there.

FEITH: Well, that`s true, but one of the things that pilots typically will use, they turn the radar on and they turn the landing lights on. The birds can -- they don`t like the radar when the radar is functioning on the aircraft, and they use that as a mitigation tool in the air. The landing lights, of course, are there, and hopefully, scare the birds.

GRACE: Right.

FEITH: But the biggest problem is that it`s very hard to predict the movement of a bird. And so while this engine is certified to handle the birds up to about four pounds in size, you`re talking 18 to 20 pounds and this engine can`t dissect it, as it could with a smaller bird. It creates catastrophic damage. And because the airplane was at low altitude...

GRACE: Got it.

FEITH: ... probably 3,000 feet, they don`t have a lot of choice once they have a problem.

GRACE: Very quickly to Dr. Marty Makary from Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, hypothermia experienced by nearly everyone. What is it?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: Yes, basically, your body temperature, normally 98 degrees, is quickly diving down to the temperature of the water. And we know that water today was extremely dangerous. It was somewhere between 8 degrees and 21 degrees, according to the National Weather Service. So we understand 78 people are being treated for some sort of injury by the fire department.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A U.S. Airways plane -- you see it there -- it`s in the Hudson River. It`s an Airbus A320, 135 people, we`re told, on board. This is U.S. Airways flight 1549 from La Guardia in New York City, scheduled to go to Charlotte, North Carolina. And we`re told shortly after takeoff, it went into the Hudson River.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines. Debbie in California. Hi, Debbie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, how often do the flock of birds actually take down a plane?

GRACE: To Mary Schiavo. What about it, Mary?

SCHIAVO: Well, actually take down a plane, not as commonly as one might think. Military planes have been subject to it frequently, and small planes. But for commercial jetliners, fortunately, with the efforts of most of the airports in scaring away the birds with canons, et cetera, if you get one when you`re up at altitude, when you aren`t just taking off and landing, usually, you can get to an airport, get a safe landing at an alternative airport.

GRACE: Right.

SCHIAVO: But here they had no time.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, high-profile defense attorney, New York.

To Mickey Sherman. Mickey, will there be lawsuits, or will this be considered an act of God?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there shouldn`t be lawsuits, and it is an act of God. But having said that, there`s an accident, there`s injuries, some lawyers are going to sue some people. But they`re going to say the planes should be made to be able to withstand the birds. Plus, you may even get a lawsuit from PETA against the airlines for killing the birds.

GRACE: Eleanor?

SHERMAN: I mean, wherever there`s a problem, there`s going to be lawyers.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You know, Nancy, I hear the sound of lawyers rushing up to La Guardia to file their lawsuits. I think there will be. It could be for emotional and mental distress based on all the things.

GRACE: And Peter Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy. We`re going to hear the click of a thousand tasseled loafers rushing toward the Hudson River to file lawsuits.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know what you and Sherman are talking about because that`s how you make your living!

SHERMAN: I don`t do airlines. I just defend people who do bad things, allegedly.

GRACE: Yes. OK. And you`ve never handled a civil case.

SHERMAN: Yes, but I...

GRACE: OK. Yes. That`s a yes/no answer.

Everyone, the latest. Here is live footage of flight 1549 in the icy waters of the Hudson River.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Get hate mails, threatening letters.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Well, I haven`t gotten anything like that thankfully. All of the letters that I`ve gotten have been positive, even the letter that she had attached was still very positive. Everyone`s certain that she`s OK, offering help. A couple of people said that they`ve called and talked to dad or left him messages. So.

CINDY: We need to -- we need to have something to go on.

CASEY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this?

I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it. Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on, I`m wonder -- I`m wondering if there`s something new.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the very beginning, why are these -- these very contentious visits, the tapes just emerging?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, these tapes were held back for some reason. They`re saying that it was just an oversight by -- by the jail, but if you recall, Jose Baez filed a motion and he said there were a number of suspicious activities which may include police misconduct which related to this actual visit.

We don`t see anything that relates to any type of police misconduct, but what we do see is a lot of emotion and the parents of Casey Anthony wanting a lot of answers from her.

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, what more can you tell me about these tapes? We`re about to queue them up.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, from what I`ve heard, the defense asked for this visit. There was little bit of confusion behind the scenes. I`m not sure if it was a clerical error. That`s what I`m hearing, but as Natisha said, it was a very emotional visit between Casey and her parents.

Her mother is pressing her for answers, what can you tell me? What other information can you give me? At Casey is getting frustrated by that confrontation. At one point Cindy leaves and comes back. Casey says she only wants to talk to her father and that was the same day, August 14th, that you might remember George got very angry with reporters that day.

So emotions were very, very high. That was a few days after Caylee`s 3rd birthday. Emotions were very, very high on that day. And you know, again, a clerical error apparently behind this lag time in getting this visit out.

GRACE: Long story short, a contentious visit between grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and the tot mom behind bars. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY: Good morning.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Good morning, beautiful. I love you.

CASEY: Hi. I love you, too. Why is she crying already?

G. ANTHONY: Because we haven`t seen you.

CASEY: I know. Hey, hold on one second.

I want to try to get them to turn this up a little bit, but go ahead.

G. ANTHONY: So how`s, how`s your day starting out so far?

CASEY: I was asleep. Well, so, it`s all right. I woke up at 5:00, stayed up for about an hour and then went back to bed for a little bit so my eyes are red. I`m tired.

G. ANTHONY: What else is going on with you?

CASEY: Nothing. The usual. I guess wait around. Those are new shirts. I like those.

G. ANTHONY: Yes, those are -- the Never Lose Hope Foundation did these for us so.

CASEY: I like those a lot. Those are really nice.

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Those are really sweet. Everyone`s really sweet.

CASEY: I.

G. ANTHONY: Can you read what they say?

CASEY: "Fly home, baby" and I don`t see the bottom.

G. ANTHONY: It says, "Fly home, baby, we miss you."

CASEY: Those are nice shirts. I like those.

How are you feeling?

CINDY: Hot. We`re not doing well today. None of us. Lee`s been sick. Dad`s -- Dad`s blown up at the media.

CASEY: Yes, I heard.

CINDY: Well, someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.

CASEY: Surprise, surprise.

CINDY: So it`s very hard.

CASEY: Well, yes. I -- trust me, I know that. Someone just sent me some of the stuff that`s been online, comments that people have been leaving off of certain articles, I guess, that have been written and it was very upsetting last night to see that.

CINDY: Did they ask you about which one of us you`d want to meet with?

CASEY: Yes. I wanted to see dad. I mean I wanted to see everybody but I had to choose, and I wanted to see dad.

CINDY: All right. Well, Dad`s here. Talk to your dad.

G. ANTHONY: Hi, sweetheart.

CASEY: Hey.

G. ANTHONY: Hey, listen, I want you to know you are the boss through this whole thing. OK?

CASEY: Well, no, I`m not anymore, Dad. I haven`t been since I got here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, at a certain point the tot mom gets up and threatens to leave. Her mother begging her not to do that, why?

BELICH: Because I believe as Cindy was pressing her for answers and Casey got frustrated and Casey kept saying, I don`t know what`s going on, I`m in here, and yet her mother didn`t seem to accept that and she kept pressing her. What can you tell us? Do you have any more information?

So you know, possibly a typical power struggle going on there between the two of them, but it looked like Cindy wasn`t accepting Casey`s answers.

GRACE: And what about that moment where the tot mom brings out the possibility of little Caylee drowned in the swimming pool? Kathi?

BELICH: Yes, I`m trying to think about that day. I might have been the one to ask that question. That was the day that we got information, I believe, about the latter, the pool that had been -- it was in a different place than usual, and I think -- one day at the jail, it might have been that day I asked Cindy, was it possible that Caylee possibly drowned in the pool and then -- Caylee, rather, drowned in the pool and then Casey panicked.

And Cindy ruled that out right away that day, if I remember correctly. It might not have been that same day, but it was at the jail so that might have been what she was referring to.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sherry in Illinois. Hi, Sherry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Hello again, how are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Got a question and a comment here.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, the P.I. of Casey when he was on the phone, I was wondering, possibly -- I`m still thinking that he was either talking to Lee or could it have been the attorney, Baez, on the phone?

And the quick comment is, because of Lee, I was thinking about -- on one of the clips that you`ve shown in that little -- when Lee and Casey were in jail -- when Casey is in jail and he and Lee were going in -- going back and forth it seemed like they were speaking in code a little bit more. And a -- I think there was a statement in there that he made to Casey about, does that mean a little bit more north of there and he was sort of, you know, it was something to do with that and that sort of just stuck in my mind about that.

GRACE: So you`re asking, were they speaking in code.

To Leonard Padilla, can you answer any of that?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, siblings always have their own language, but more interesting than that was when she was talking about the psychic, and the psychic on one of the tapes or one of the interviews says that besides her, there was an intermediary, a go-between, involved in this whole situation.

And I was wondering if maybe, just maybe, somebody passed on some information at the same time they passed on the teddy bear as far as -- and I don`t think it was -- I don`t think it was Cindy, and I don`t think it was George.

GRACE: Just lost Leonard Padilla.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman.

Lee Anthony, the brother, seeking criminal immunity. How will it work and what can they hope to gain from him, Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, hopefully, they`ll gain some information as to regards to what Casey Anthony told him which means that he will be immune from prosecution no matter what his part, if any.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`d better be very careful before granting him immunity because of what he might say. If he were to get on the witness stand under a grant of immunity and say that he had something to do with this child`s death they would have no way to prosecute him and that would create reasonable doubt about -- about Casey`s involvement.

GRACE: Mickey Sherman, do you agree?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I agree, but I`d rather touch something else.

What kind of criminal justice system that they have in Florida which allows us all to be these bizarre peeping toms to listen to every word that the prisoner makes to her family? There is something absolutely wrong with that from every possible.

GRACE: OK, you know, Mickey, it`s interesting how when you`ve got the bones of a 2-year-old child with duct tape around its mouth you`re worried that the tapes are public? You know, I`ll think about that for a moment.

SHERMAN: No, but, no.

GRACE: To.

SHERMAN: Better yet -- this is the kind of thing that makes the -- a conviction fall apart for the integrity of the criminal justice system.

GRACE: OK.

SHERMAN: Don`t poison the well.

GRACE: Thanks for that insight.

Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, what do you make of the demeanors of George and Cindy Anthony as this conversation gets more and more contentious?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, first of all, these parents are so sweet to their daughter under these circumstances.

It is very courageous for them to try to really hone in on the truth and try to get her to tell the truth, but as with people who have personality disorders, she shifts and changes her story again and again to gain sympathy from them and to manipulate them, and when that doesn`t work she becomes angry and then walks out of the room.

And for the parent to the stay on her in a difficult situation like this is courageous and they run the risk every step of the way of colluding, which is I think what Lee is afraid of and why he`s asking for immunity, rather than courageously stepping away from the delusion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY: We get hate mail, threatening letters.

CASEY: Well, I haven`t gotten anything like that thankfully. All of the letters that I`ve gotten have been positive, even the letter that she had attached was still very positive. Everyone`s certain that she`s OK, offering help. A couple of people said that they`ve called and talked to dad or left him messages. So.

CINDY: I need to -- we need to have something to go on.

CASEY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this?

I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it. Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on, I`m wonder -- I`m wondering if there`s something new.

How are you feeling?

CINDY: I`m not doing well today. None of us. Lee`s been sick. Dad`s -- Dad`s blown up at the media.

CASEY: Yes, I heard.

CINDY: Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.

CASEY: Surprise, surprise.

CINDY: It`s very hard.

CASEY: Well, yes. I -- trust me, I know that. Someone just sent me some of the stuff that`s been online, comments that people have been leaving off of certain articles, I guess, that have been written and it was very upsetting last night to see them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I wonder what`s going on? I wonder if there`s anything new? I wonder if they found my fingerprints? Oops.

To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health, Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, a reward has been claimed. Thousands of dollars, $5,000 by the meter reader Ray Kronk. He now says he believes he saw the skull back in August.

Why would he be uncertain about seeing a human skull? Don`t you think that`s a type of memory that sticks with you?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, you would think a human skull, yes, but remember a 2-year-old is a small body and when you`ve got a dismembered 2-year-old body parts may not be as easy to identify as an adult.

GRACE: You`re absolutely correct.

Out to the lines, Ann in Louisiana. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I watch all the time. I only missed one night since this has begun. And I want to plan out real quick, way back in the beginning in the first couple of days when she was being interviewed by the police, there was a slight crack that I`ve never heard anyone pick up on.

As she was talking about the nanny, this is the comment she made, "And however it happened," and then she came right back off of it, but my question is that -- a two part.

GRACE: Hold on, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I missed what you said. There was chatter in my ear. What did you say?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry, she -- she was talking to them about the nanny this and the nanny that and in her sentence, she said, "or however it happened," and so she was letting down her guard for just a moment and then she put it right back up and moved on.

If you look through, then you`ll find it and you`ll see exactly what I`m talking about. It was a slight crack that she showed and I don`t think anyone`s ever noticed it. I never heard it, but my question for you is this. The place where the body was eventually found, way back when the protesters, when the -- or the neighborhood association were trying moving them out through the courts and they wanted to send them somewhere out, I`m curious if that`s where they were trying to send them around the corner and also there was some kind of a report of the father being caught looking out in some woods.

I`m wondering if the grandfather, if that is also the.

GRACE: OK. I can answer part of that right now, Ann in Louisiana, and hello to all of our Cajun friends.

Ann, when George Anthony was spotted coming out of the forest it was where a witness had stated, a tipster stated, they observed the tot mom coming out of the woods near the airport, the Orlando Airport, with a shovel.

It was in a different location, but for the rest of that question, what about it, Mike Brooks?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, I don`t -- know. It`s one of those things. I really don`t know.

GRACE: And to Eleanor Dixon, Ann pointed out a really good point. I listened to all the evidence a million times and I did not notice when she said "however it happened."

DIXON: I wish some of your viewers could be our detectives here, Nancy, because they bring up so many good points. But that`s something the prosecution can use to show her state of mind and to know that she knew exactly what had happened to little Caylee.

GRACE: To Susie in Massachusetts, hi, Susie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi there, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A while back, they had -- previous to the psychics they had dogs go in and check the back of the Anthony house. Now there were two different dogs that went there and sniffed out something in the same place, and it was just kind of pushed aside. After that, the psychic had a dog with her and the dog did respond.

Do you think that this is why everybody wants immunity? Maybe Casey got caught doing something? Maybe Casey got caught with poor little Caylee`s remains and now that it`s coming out and you`ve never heard anything about the dogs from that point on?

GRACE: To Kathi Belich from WFTV, what about it?

BELICH: Well, the cadaver dogs that belonged to the sheriff`s office, they hit on a spot in the backyard, but no human remains were found there. I think there are some who believe that at some point Caylee`s body might have been in the backyard, but then moved.

As far as the psychic`s dog, I`m not -- I`m not sure that a psychic`s dog was ever in the backyard, but maybe in the area where -- near where the remains were found and I don`t know that that dog hit on any particular area -- in that area.

GRACE: Kathi, I do not believe that it did.

To Natisha Lance, our produce or the story, back to Ann in Louisiana`s first question. When the protesters near the Anthony home were moved, were they moved near where the body was found?

LANCE: Well, they were never actually moved.

GRACE: OK.

LANCE: . but they were trying to move them to an area that was near there. It would be across the street a little ways. It`s an open, grassy area.

GRACE: But they were never actually moved, correct?

LANCE: Correct. They were never moved.

GRACE: To Jan in Tennessee, hi, Jan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`ve got a question. Did the police investigator check the income tax filings to see if the Anthonys claimed Casey and Caylee as exemptions? If they did, wouldn`t -- if they claim Casey, wouldn`t that prove they knew she didn`t have a job?

GRACE: Interesting.

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who`s been in the home, they had to be suspicious, Leonard, because they totally supported the tot mom. And you know, she says she worked from home. I mean, if I have a family member who`s laid up on the couch all day long, typing into their laptop, I`d get a little suspicious when they never contribute anything to the home.

PADILLA: George and Cindy were completely mesmerized by this young lady. And let me explain something that just took place. The 14th of August, her attorney had already told her that we were flying back there to bail her out. She already knew she was coming out of jail and yet look at how she`s acting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY: How are you feeling?

CINDY: I`m not doing well today. None of us. Lee`s been sick. Dad`s -- Dad`s blown up at the media.

CASEY: Yes, I heard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshal, you know, Padilla brings up a good point. At the time of this phone call, she knew she was about to be bonded out.

MARSHAL: Yes, she did.

GRACE: . and she`s going on and on and on about me, me, me, me, me, me. Why?

MARSHAL: And there is not one mention about little Caylee.

GRACE: She`s about to resume the duties eating chips on her parent`s sofa.

MARSHAL: Exactly. And she`s still self-consumed and they try to insert reality by saying there`s a lot of hate mail. She denies reality by saying, oh no, I`m getting lots of letters of support.

As soon as she`s couch surfing again and living off the kindness of her parents, she feels everything`s going to calm down and it`s going to be A-OK. That`s what we call a lack of conscience, remorse and disregard for the rights of others.

GRACE: And very quickly, Kathi Belich, what about this last order. She`s got commissary order. She`s got her parents and her brother running to cooperate with police for immunity. They`re afraid they`ve got criminal liability.

Her daughter`s remains, her bones, are sitting in a card board box, no funeral date in sight, and she`s ordering up expensive bottled water, a deck of cards, headphones?

BELICH: Yes, and some more snacks and lotions and playing card and ear buds for, I guess, that radio that she bought a few weeks earlier. Yes -- and I`ve also heard that she`s doing a lot of writing in jail, just writing about her thoughts.

GRACE: Well, I`m glad to know she got some expensive cocoa butter to slather on herself behind bars there.

Everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Jennifer Cole, 34, American Canyon, California, killed Iraq. Awarded multiple army commendation medals, a floral designer. Helped her mom run the business. Loved making people smile.

Leaves behind grieving parents, Candice and James, husband Lamont, brothers James and Jeff, also in the army.

Jennifer Cole, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2009, 09:39:30 AM »

NANCY GRACE

New Casey Anthony Jailhouse Video Released

Aired January 16, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the disappearance of that 2-year-old Florida girl named Caylee. After a six- month search by police and volunteers, a meter reader stumbles upon a garbage bag and a tiny human skull in a heavily wooded area just yards from the Anthony home, the skeletal remains confirmed to be Caylee Anthony, manner of death homicide.
Bombshell tonight. New jailhouse video just released. In her own words, we hear an angry Casey Anthony dodge question after question as she is confronted by parents George and Cindy Anthony, the tot mom still blaming the so-called nanny, having a big pity party and constantly talking about herself. She even admits watching herself on TV right here on NANCY GRACE. The tot mom also insists she should be treated as a victim. Tonight, we have the stunning videotape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) come on!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just released video of a jailhouse visit to tot mom Casey Anthony shows the 22-year-old Anthony viewed herself as a victim in this case.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to talk to! Jose, when it comes, is the only person that I can talk to right now because I can`t even say anything to you guys!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In conversations with her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, tot mom Casey Anthony says that her entire life has been taken from her and that she is just as much of a victim as her parents.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me but myself. I may look like I`m in charge. Wrong. Right now, this is the most agitated and frustrated that I`ve been, even when I`ve sat with Jose and I watched that episode of NANCY GRACE and the stuff that was being said about Mom and being said about me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Also tonight, a 6-year-old boy goes missing without a trace in southwest Florida. The little boy cannot verbally communicate and has the mind of a 2-year-old. The search growing more desperate by the hour. Tonight, what happened to 6-year-old Adji?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI child abduction rapid deployment team has now joined the investigation into what happened to missing 6-year-old Adji. Local state and federal officials continue to try and determine whether or not the boy was kidnapped or simply wandered off. The search has now expanded to a radius of 16 miles, and the amount of law enforcement searching for Adji has doubled.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A total of 300 searchers are now looking for the missing 6-year-old. The effort expanded again today. For the first time, crews went out on the water at nearby Lake (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re trying to eliminate every possibility, and when you have a resource that you can use that`s to your advantage, then we`re going to take advantage of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And as the investigation continues, the reward for information leading to Adji`s return has grown to $11,000. There`s no timetable right now for how long investigators will continue their search.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff`s office appeals to the public for help, asking volunteers to come out and help look for the boy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Adji`s mom refuses to give up hope, either. She pleads, If someone has him, bring him back. In the meantime, she prays.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God will give him back to me again. I think he will come home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, bombshell video just released of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) you guys expect me to have a thousand answers, and I have nothing! I`ve been here a month!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At one point during the August 14th visit, Anthony gets very angry with her parents for pressing her for answers about what happened to Caylee, telling her parents she`s at a standstill and can`t point them in the right direction.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Just understand we`re all going in so many different directions, we just want to go in the right one.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I can`t point you in that direction when I`m literally at a standstill. I am just as removed from this situation as somebody who has no clue what`s going on. At least even random people that we`ve never met have more of an outlook on this than I do right now. It`s really sad. It`s really, really sad that I literally have nothing right now.

I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on! I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a whiner! It`s outrageous. So much astounding new video of Casey Anthony to show you tonight. But first, for the very latest, let`s go straight out to Orlando and Drew Petrimoulx, reporter for WDBO radio. Drew, what is the very latest with this new tape? How come it`s being released now, with the conversations occurred back in August.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, it`s basically an oversight. That`s what jail officials are saying, that they should have been released with video that were released a while back, but they weren`t. And yet you see in these videos, she`s really painting herself as a victim. She said the media and the sheriff`s office are out to get her. She even mentions the NANCY GRACE show by name. She says that her attorney, Jose Baez, showed her an episode and she couldn`t believe how -- the things that were being said about her and her mother.

This tape supposedly had some sort of police misconduct. That was one of the defense motions that they were asking for this tape to be released because it was going to show some sort of police misconduct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, hold on. Hold on. The defense requested this tape? In other words, they`re the reason why we`re watching it? Because this doesn`t do them any good at all. This is outrageous. She is calling herself a victim, which is an insult to her little daughter, who we now know is deceased.

PETRIMOULX: That`s right. And when the last set of motions were filed, they called for this tape -- this specific date to be released, and they said in that motion that there were signs of police misconduct that would be proven from this tape. And you know, honestly, I don`t see any of that. What I do see is Casey getting very frustrated with her parents. When they asked for information about the whereabouts of Caylee, she says, basically, she has no way of helping them. She`s been in jail. And you know, she, at one point, almost walks out of interview and gets so frustrated that she almost loses control.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Drew, we`re going to show you that right now, astounding video, outrageous behavior. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk and...

CINDY ANTHONY: All right, I`ll listen to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... give me three seconds to say something!

CINDY ANTHONY: Go, sweetheart.

I was in Lake (ph) County two days ago.

CASEY ANTHONY: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there anything there?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, she`s -- I`m sorry. I love you guys. I miss you.

CINDY ANTHONY: All right, sweetheart. Here`s Dad. Hold on.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now because...

CINDY ANTHONY: No, please don`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry, and I don`t want to be angry. This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time, but I`m so beyond frustrated with -- with all of this that I can`t even swallow right now. It hurts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Cindy keeps referring to her daughter as "sweetheart." To me, Jeff Gardere -- you`re the psychologist, but to me, it seems like classic co-dependent enabling behavior by the parents, trying to placate this girl.

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: It seems like it`s been going on a very long time, Jane. This seems like a replay of what has happened in their lives. They`re treating her as if she`s a volcano about to erupt. They`re treating her with kid gloves. And isn`t it fascinating, they`re asking her about the whereabouts of Caylee? And I think that says it all right there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the phone line`s lighting up, but let`s hear one more piece of tape before we go to our first call because it`s just so outrageous. It`s crazy. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on. I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me! You don`t understand. Everybody wants me to have answers. I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on. I have no one to talk to except Jose when he comes. That`s the only person that I can talk to right now because I can`t even say anything to you guys besides telling you that I love you.

I want Caylee, things like that, and that`s not even getting put on the air, which it should be. It`s everything else, everything that I`m not saying. That`s why I haven`t been calling. That`s why I haven`t been taking calls, because him and I said that we weren`t going do that because I`m trying to make sure that I`m not going to get anybody anything else to throw against me. And even with me giving them nothing, they`re still doing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pat Brown, you`re the criminal profiler. Isn`t she essentially saying here that she`s afraid to talk because she might slip and say something incriminating?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Oh, yes, Jane, she is. And what she`s really upset about is she wants to be, as she said, seen as a victim, not that she is one, but she wants to be seen as victim and that`s what she`s upset about, that out in TV land and now out in NANCY GRACE land, it`s not happening. We`re seeing her for what she really is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kelly in Texas, your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. This is for the psychiatrist or psychologist. I would like to know if Cindy is not feeling some guilt that she used Caylee to maybe intimidate Caylee -- or Casey to grow up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Jeff Gardere, how much guilt is Cindy feeling, in your opinion, during this interaction?

GARDERE: That is an incredibly good question because I think she`s probably been feeling guilt her whole life and that she has had to raise this girl, who may be some sort of a sociopath, a borderline personality who can`t really interact with people in an appropriate manner, but yet she`s been shielding her her whole life. And if she is guilty of the disappearance of her daughter, then in some way, she enabled that. That is that co-dependency that you talked about, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cecilia, Arkansas. Question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I was just wondering about the immunity deal that Casey had in the beginning, if it`s going to come up in trial for the defense that she didn`t just say what had happened and then say, Oh, how you can`t touch me because you offered me immunity.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Any kind of deals that we know about, Nikki Pierce, reporter?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, early on, she was offered an immunity deal way before all of these heavy charges, the murder charges, and all of that came down. I think that`s completely off the table at this time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. Put this into context for us. This is happening on August 14th. Did she know at this time that she was going to get bailed out, which kind of really robs all of her drama of this authenticity?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I just today, after days and days of saying I got to go check my phone bills -- it was the 12th that I talked to Jose for the first time. I don`t know whether he had mentioned it by the 14th to her at all. I do know that he told me, This evening, I`m going to New York or somewhere. And then we talked several times after that on his cell phone and made arrangements to fly back there that Sunday.

But tell you something that`s even more. Remember what she says to somebody -- or she was whispering to Jose when she got out of jail that time and she or somebody said, I want to walk out of here with my head held up high? That`s not what she said. She told Tracy, she said, Get me the "F" out of here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: You`ll be fine once Caylee`s found.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I understand. Do you understand my position on this? You guys expect me to have a thousand answers, and I have nothing. I`ve been here a month, out of contact with everybody except you guys, on the rare occasion that I get to see you, and my attorney. Do you -- do you understand? What am I supposed to learn from that? And what am I supposed to learn from that the first week-and-a-half? Yes, I tried to help you guys backtrack. That`s all that I could do is backtrack. I can`t backtrack on anything. I`m on -- I`ve been removed from the situation. You guys are not understanding my side on this, and I`m sorry.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, I understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. We are playing and analyzing the extraordinary and outrageous videotape of Casey Anthony talking from jail in August to her visiting parents, Cindy and George. Listen to this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: This is seriously the first time that I`ve been angry, that I`ve been this frustrated to where I -- I can`t even think straight at this moment. Throughout this entire thing, I was pissed off that day at the police station, I was mad when all of that happened, but I tried to look at things objectively. And this entire time, I haven`t sat in my room for the entire month and been mad. Not once. Not one time. But right now, this is the most agitated and frustrated that I`ve been. Even when I`ve sat with Jose and watched that episode of NANCY GRACE and the stuff that is being said about Mom and being said about me and him and everybody else and stuff that I`ve heard -- it`s frustrated me, but I`ve let it go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she is concerned, Natisha Lance, about how she`s perceived. We had heard she didn`t watch television from jail. Now it turns out she is very curious about how she`s portrayed.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s how it sounds, Jane. And we do remember that Jose Baez did say that he had gone in with Casey and so that she could have a good laugh. And he was showing her some of the reports that had been done about her, including this one, apparently, about the NANCY GRACE show. So it`s very interesting now to see that she`s upset about this. She`s very -- you can see all the emotion on her, but you also see the emotion from her parents, which is a little disturbing, in my opinion.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, her parents devastated. I do have tremendous compassion for any parent put in this situation. How can they be perfect when they`re dealing with this kind of a daughter? And I`m not saying that they didn`t do something in their parenting that contributed to her behavior, but I can still have compassion for them.

Let`s bring in the lawyers to analyze the impact this tape is going to have on the trial, Penny Douglas Furr and Joey Jackson, both defense attorneys. Penny, who`s going to play this tape at trial? I would presume the prosecution. What impact could have it have?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would move to keep the trial out, if I`m the defense -- I would move to keep the tape out of the trial, if I`m the defense, because I can`t say that it proves anything about what happened to the child. And I would say that it`s definitely more prejudicial than anything it could gain for the state as far as evidence is concerned. So I would ask to keep it out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey, do you think they`ll get it in, the prosecution? And what would they use it to prove?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. There`s a few ways they can do it, Jane. The first way is through impeachment, and that`s unlikely, and I`ll tell you why. Whenever someone testifies, you can use anything they say that would be inconsistent from what they say at trial against them. So it`s unlikely that she will testify, so they can`t there.

The second way is through stipulation. Now, the only way -- you have to understand that -- look, there`s one side of the coin that portrays her as a sociopath, as psychotic and self-absorbed. The defense`s theory is that she`s falsely accused and she`s a victim in this case, so they want to play it up by saying, I care about, you know, Caylee. Where is she? I want my family back. And that`s why the defense would want to maybe show this. And she wouldn`t be subject to cross-examination.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey, is it possible that the prosecution and the defense would both use it but just play different clips?

JACKSON: That`s whole theory, Jane. The point of the matter is -- and not only different clips, Jane, but what they would do is on every clip, they would have a different spin. From the defense theory, Look, it`s our theory all along she didn`t do it, she wasn`t there. You know, she wants her baby back. She wants her family back. This is outrageous. And from the prosecution`s theory, she`s lying, she`s psychopathic and she can`t be trusted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Dawn, Kentucky, question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, mine is about Lee Anthony. You know, he wants immunity. I was wondering, we haven`t heard much about what he initially told detectives because he was there the day that Casey told her mother. And I wondered what he had told detectives that day.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Drew Petrimoulx, address that. And also, where is Lee in this tape? He didn`t visit that day, I guess. And apparently, this is the last time -- my understanding is this is the last -- the video that we`re watching from August 14th is the last time her parents visited her in jail, the last time anybody who is a friend or relative visited her in jail.

Now, she was released a couple of times and brought back to jail. But still, that`s a pretty stunning commentary.

PETRIMOULX: That is true. This is the last visit. Let`s go to the immunity thing. It`s not blanket immunity that his lawyer was seeking. If he was going to testify against his sister in any way, he wants that testimony to not be able to be used against him in another trial. As far as what he said in his testimony to deputies, he`s basically toed the family line of Zenaida Gonzalez and the baby-sitter story. He`s never came out and really gone against the whole family story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, listen to this tape, and I believe Casey freaks out in this little segment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: Hey, sweetheart.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey.

GEORGE ANTHONY: And listen, I want you to know, you are the boss through this whole thing, OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, no, I`m not anymore, Dad. I haven`t been since I got here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh yes, you are. You are the -- think of this for a second...

CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I`ve been...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Listen...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, just listen to me for one moment, OK? Just listen to me for one second, OK? Listen, think of you owning this conglomerate, this huge business. Jose is one of your employees. So is the sheriff`s department. So is the FBI. So am I. So is Lee. So is Mom. You know, we`re all working with you. And if for some reason, something`s not being said or being done, you can make a change. You`re the one who can say, Listen...

CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I`ve told Jose...

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`ve given him the information to give you guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff Gardere, what is this father talking about? She`s the CEO of a conglomerate and everybody`s working for her? That is the kookiest thing I`ve ever heard. Talk about giving her all the power and setting no boundaries, it`s unbelievable.

GARDERE: You know, this reminds me of some of the patients that I work with, where some of their kids perhaps are very destructive, or the parents can`t seem to handle what`s going on with their kids, and so instead of hitting them, we work with them around strategies, figure out how you can deal with this child in an intelligent manner to teach them lessons, to be able to get through to them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let me jump in here. Look at these parents. Cindy`s holding her mouth like this. She`s rocking back and forth. I mean, this child, adult child, is impossible, for lack of a better word, the worst case scenario for a parent, completely impossible. And how do you deal with an impossible situation?

GARDERE: Well, but -- and that`s what I was going to say. And yes, you and I are on the same page on this, Jane. This is what you do with very young children. But when it comes to adults, you talk to them from one adult to another, and that`s not being done here. They`re coddling and still babying her, and I think this says a lot about their relationship.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I can`t do anything from here. I don`t have access to the Internet. I can`t make phone calls. I can`t go anywhere. I`ve already told you, Mom. I told you everything.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve thought about everything that you`ve told me over the month.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, you thought about stuff and you`ve done what you can. I`m sorry, that`s all that I can do from the only knowledge that I have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Casey Anthony in heated conversation with her parents, Cindy and George, on August 14th, the very last time her parents visited her in jail. She was bailed out not long after this video was taken. Of course, she was later jailed again, and she`s in jail tonight, charged with the murder of her daughter, Caylee.

I want to go out to Dr. Keri Peterson, who is a doctor of internal medicine at Lenox Hill Hospital. Why no burial yet, Doctor? The family had said they would bury this child after the second autopsy was completed. That second autopsy reportedly has been completed, so what could be left?

DR. KERI PETERSON, PHYSICIAN: Well, from reports, I think that what they`re looking at is the DNA a little more deeply to see if they can uncover any underlying genetic conditions. And also the bones -- see, they haven`t released the autopsy reports, but you can extract from the bones some information about what caused this homicide. For example, if there is chloroform present in the bones, that can be determined through analysis.

And in addition, I think there was something about a snake that they were looking at. Perhaps there`s some remains inside a dead snake that they may be looking at to see if they can tie it into the body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Right now, I`m so hurt by everything. I don`t even know what to say. And I hate to say that.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Well, I`m not, I`m not trying to upset you, neither, neither are mom. What I`m trying to -- and if we are I`m sorry for that.

C. ANTHONY: I know that`s not your intention, because you have to understand where I`m coming from in this and, obviously, none of you are by expecting me a month literally out of the loop to have some sort of new insight on stuff. I mean, really?

I`ve been praying every single day for insight. And everybody`s thoughts and everybody`s feelings. So I know where you`re standing, where you`re coming from, and I know where you`re standing right now and mom and Lee and Joe Schmo walking down the block, and seeing this every day in the media for the last month.

I can understand everybody else (INAUDIBLE), but the worst part is that nobody can see my side and I have to keep my mouth shut. I have to keep my mouth shut about how I feel and with everything else because all I need do is give the media more stuff for them, the detectives and with whoever else to throw back in my face when this goes to trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: But she`s not keeping her mouth shut, is she?

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

What makes Casey Anthony tick? You be the judge. We have extraordinary video we`re playing for you tonight of her jailhouse confrontation with her mom and dad back in August where they asked her pointed questions about where little Caylee might be. And we also have some pointed questions from our viewers.

Mary in Illinois.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks for taking my call. I`ve been wondering, I`ve been watching this from the get-go, and she has always said when she was interrogated by police that the last she`s seen her kid was on June 9th. But the grandfather George keeps saying June 15th and I`m really surprised that nobody`s really talked about that.

Where -- what is the -- what is up with the dates? On.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hear you. I hear you. And we have talked about it. But it`s I very good point.

Drew Petrimoulx, they were kind of busted when they said the last time that -- the last time Casey saw Caylee was on the 9th when a videotape emerged on the 15th.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: After that videotape, George Anthony said that he saw Casey and Caylee leaving the house on the 15th of June. So pretty much the story changed when that video came out establishing that June 9th was in fact not the last day that Caylee was seen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s right. Because Cindy took little Caylee to visit her father, which would be Caylee`s great-grandfather on Father`s Day June 15th. And there`s videotape of that interaction.

We have a lot more calls. But let`s play one more piece of tape before we get to those calls. They`re all humdingers. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: You guys have given everything to the police. They`re not helping us, it`s obvious. We know their intentions. So I`m sorry. I`ve helped in every way that I possibly can since the day I got here.

G. ANTHONY: OK, well, let me.

C. ANTHONY: They didn`t even give me 24 hours to help them, the police, without putting me here. So it`s obvious for everybody`s intentions why. I know you guys want Caylee. I want Caylee more than anybody can understand but I can`t do anything. I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

G. ANTHONY: Number one or at least -- number one should be you and Caylee. That`s the way it should be. It shouldn`t be, Jose.

C. ANTHONY: Well, it`s (INAUDIBLE), Dad.

G. ANTHONY: . then you and then Caylee and everything else is falling in line. It`s -- you know, it has to be you two. You know, you and your daughter, has got to be the ones, has got to be focused on.

C. ANTHONY: Well, he`s focusing on Caylee and I. You guys are focusing on Caylee. I know I`m still part of your focus. But she`s your main focus and I understand that.

Dad, I know where everybody`s priorities lie. I knew that the day that I got here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. So much demesne. Let`s start with Leonard Padilla. She`s been helpful? This is the young woman who didn`t report her daughter missing for a month. And only really did that when her mother forced her into this situation by calling 911.

It`s just extraordinary that she thinks she`s done everything she could. She lied to investigators in leading them on a wild goose chase through universal studios, saying she worked there, when she didn`t.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: We didn`t know any of this at the time when we went back there, when we bailed her out. I, myself, Rob, Tracy, we all thought, the baby is alive. She`s tired of being over-parented. She`ll tell us.

The next day after we got her out, I sat down with her. It took me about - - 15 minutes to realize that I wasn`t going to get any further than anybody else had with this young lady. I didn`t know about the discussions she`d had with Allan or any of the other detectives.

And when I told her that I didn`t come 3,000 miles and leave my Chihuahua behind in order to put up with this BS, she says, get out of my house. She`s not going to talk to me like a cop.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.

PADILLA: I got up and I walked up and I said, but let me tell you, Casey, before this is over I`m going to find Caylee one way or another, with or without your help.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pat Brown, what`s also fascinating about that last clip, there seems to be a rivalry for attention between her and her daughter. Casey says, I know where your priorities are. In other words, she`s jealous of her own daughter.

Could that be used as a motive?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Oh, absolutely, Jane. I think that`s one of the biggest problems all along. She didn`t want this child to take over her spotlight in the sun. And there`s another very interesting thing about appropriateness. A person as a psychopath does not understand how people should behave appropriately under certain circumstances.

So here she`s sitting here saying, this is the most upset I`ve ever been. Really? You want more upset like when your daughter disappeared and you didn`t know where your daughter was day after day? You weren`t more upset about that?

That`s a very inappropriate thing to say but she doesn`t even recognize she`s doing that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent point. Let`s listen to this clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I want to bring up this thing about -- about, you know, you being the boss. You`re the one who controls everything. You`re the one.

C. ANTHONY: You know, I -- Dad, please.

G. ANTHONY: Sweetie.

C. ANTHONY: I completely.

G. ANTHONY: I`m not, I`m not trying to get you upset.

C. ANTHONY: No. But I am upset now.

G. ANTHONY: Please.

C. ANTHONY: I`m completely upset. One, the media is going to have a freaking field day with this. I wasn`t even.

G. ANTHONY: No, no.

C. ANTHONY: I wasn`t even supposed to tape this. Let me speak for a second. Dad, I let everybody talk.

G. ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: They`re not releasing it, well, I hope not. I`ll keep saying whatever I have to about the police so they don`t let it go.

G. ANTHONY: OK, here`s mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she is right about one thing, the media is having a field day with this tape.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Jenny in Kentucky. Question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I was wondering if they`ve ever checked to see if there was insurance on Caylee?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we`ve gotten that question before but it`s a good one. Nikki Pierce?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I believe they have checked. There is no insurance on Caylee that Casey could benefit from. It hasn`t really been a point that`s been talked about a lot by police in the investigation, no.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s sneak in one more clip. These are just so amazing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: You`ll be fine once Caylee`s found.

C. ANTHONY: Mom, I understand that. Do you understand my position on this? You guys expect me to have a thousand answers and I have nothing. I`ve been here a month. Out of contact with everybody, except you guys on the rare occasion that I get to see you and my attorney.

Do you understand, what am I supposed to learn from that? What am I supposed to learn from that? The first week and a half, yes, I`ve tried to help you guys backtrack. Again, that`s all I could do was backtrack. I can`t backtrack on anything. A month, I`ve been removed from the situation. You don`t -- guys are not understanding my side on this and I`m sorry.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, I understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Natisha Lance, tell us about the parents and/or Lee seeking immunity.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, according to the parents` attorney, Brad Conway, he was wanting to seek immunity for George and Cindy. Now, we don`t know where that`s gotten at this point. However, he was trying to seek immunity saying that they have made some contradicting statements in the past but they wouldn`t be making anymore in the future but he wanted to ensure that they would be able to speak freely to investigators in the coming days.

Now so far as Lee Anthony is concerned, his case is a little bit different. According to his attorney, he is trying to get a subpoena for Lee Anthony. In which case, Lee would then be granted immunity.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. All right, let`s bring in the attorneys. Joey Jackson, in light of this videotape, any thoughts on the Anthonys seeking immunity?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, you know, the issue will come up, Jane, whether or not they were accessories after the fact or what have you. I mean a lot is going to hinge upon what they knew and when they knew it. And certainly there doesn`t seem to be any evidence that suggests that they had anything to do with Casey`s disappearance -- I`m sorry, Caylee`s disappearance.

But the issue will be, it -- did they come into that knowledge at any point? And if they did, did they take steps to conceal, hinder the prosecution or do anything else?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Penny, the bottom line is they seem suspicious of their daughter`s explanations and they want the truth from her.

JACKSON: No doubt. Absolutely. And you know what, the bottom line is that they -- we need to get to the truth in this manner. And you know, if they want to speak freely and they`re going to do things, they need the immunity to do it and not accept any, you know, prosecution.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Collier County Sheriff`s Office and the FBI have strengthened their search for little 6-year-old Adji, who`s been missing since Saturday afternoon.

A 17-person FBI child abduction rapid deployment team is tracking down leads in the search for Adji with over 300 officers searching everywhere for any sign of him or evidence he was abducted.

Investigators have since expanded the search radius an additional four miles, while authorities are asking the public to help in the search for Adji by passing out fliers in their own communities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t give up hope. There`s been many, many times where children have disappeared into the wilderness and have been found many days later. Obviously, the cold is a concern. But we`re just concentrating our efforts as best as we can to find this young man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Another shocking story out of Florida. The increasingly desperate search for a little boy who was playing outside of his grandma`s house when he mysteriously disappeared last Saturday. His friend who were playing with him said they saw absolutely nothing. He just vanished.

For more on this truly heart wrenching case let`s go straight out to Marisa Brahney, reporter with CNN affiliate, WBBH TV in Ft. Myers, Florida.

Marisa, what is the very latest tonight?

MARISA BRAHNEY, REPORTER, WBBH, COVERING STORY: Well, Jane, right now, the search continues. And the investigations continue. And they are parallel. As you said, investigators are both looking at the possibility that this little boy may have been abducted. At the same time they are searching the entire area surrounding his neighborhood.

I spoke with the lead investigators today on the case. They tell me they`ve searched the immediate area around this neighborhood up to five times now. They have dogs out at all hours of the day and night. They have people on ATVs, on foot. They also searched a nearby lake yesterday.

I actually went out with some of the investors doing that. So they are really looking at every possibility. They are receiving tips, but right now nothing viable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re delighted to have Lieutenant Tom Smith from the Special Crimes Bureau of the Collier County Sheriff`s Office with us on the phone.

A phenomenal search, Lieutenant. More than 300 officers searching for this boy. They are bloodhounds, as you just heard, choppers, horses, and the grid keeps expanding.

How many miles, square miles, from the area he disappeared have you searched now? And what conclusion have you drawn?

LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, we`ve pretty much searched out to about 12-mile radius -- I`m sorry, 12 square miles around the home. But I can tell you that that`s intensive search region and actually searching the community we`ve done that in its entirety.

We`ve been north to south, east and west, covered all of the farm lands and fields and roads and access roads.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what`s the theory now?

SMITH: And it`s just been a tremendous effort. Well, you know, obviously, at the absence of any evidence of where Adji is in the woods, then, you know, our efforts have to continually focus looking for him in the woods, in the fields but also searching for the possibility of him disappearing at the hands of someone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Has the family been cleared?

SMITH: Yes, the family has been cleared. They`re very cooperative. And you know our hearts and prayers go out to them, obviously. You know, this whole community is now searching for our son, Adji.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I want to ask Pat Brown about, really, it`s -- sad to say but with every passing hour and every passing day, statistically the chance of this little child still being alive decreases.

Tell us about that.

BROWN: Statistically, unfortunately, it`s very lousy. Obviously, if he`s out wandering around by himself in the cold, anything could happen to him. He could fall into water. He could drown. All of these things, you know, could upon him so that`s always dangerous, every minute is dangerous.

If he`s been abducted by a child predator, usually they don`t keep the children alive more than an hour. So that`s always terrible so -- but you don`t know that`s true yet so I think that police are doing a wonderful thing in that they have -- they were looking at more than one avenue of investigation. Make sure they cover everything to give them the best chance possible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, it`s really sad and sick, Pat Brown, is that there are 22 sex offenders living in this area. It -- makes me so angry.

I want to bring in the attorneys, Penny Douglass Furr, Joey Jackson. Unfortunately, this case, no car that they`ve seen. No truck. No cell phone to check the pings of. No suspect description. No witness of any sorts. They can`t even issue an AMBER Alert, no car.

So Penny, what do they do in terms of assuming this was an abduction, which we don`t know for sure, but it`s looking like that? Where do they -- where do they go next?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re going to have to track down those 22 sexual predators. They need to go into their homes. They need to ask permission to search. They can get all of that if they`ve been on convicted, they`re on probation or parole. They can get that permission. I would be in their homes and their yards searching.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Dr. Keri Peterson, this child on top of everything else is developmentally disabled. He`s 6, but he has the functioning of a 2-year-old. How would that impact his ability to survive out there and communicate?

DR. KERI PETERSON, INTERNAL MEDICINE, LENOX HILL HOSPITAL: It`ll have a huge impact on his ability to -- survive. Being that he`s nonverbal he`s really not able to communicate to others what his needs are, and his ability to acquire shelter, food, and water will all compromise his ability to survive.

In addition, he`s really at risk for hypothermia at night. The temperatures in Florida are getting really cold in the 40s and 50s.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is.

PETERSON: . and he was last seen in a t-shirt.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh yes. A t-shirt and shorts, you`re absolutely right. This is heartbreaking.

I want to point out. There is a reward that keeps on growing $11,000 plus for information leading to this child. And tomorrow citizens can help, the Collier Country Sheriff`s Office is asking for volunteers from 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. and you go to the community park there in Immokalee and you can help find this child, God-willing.

Lyn, Arkansas, your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I know that they went back and checked everybody`s houses and everything but I was wondering if they checked the vehicles, everybody trunk?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question, Lt. Tom Smith, what about cars?

SMITH: You know what, God bless all the suggestions and I`m proud to say that we`ve checked the sex offenders` homes. We`ve been in their homes. We`ve interviewed them all. We`ve been in the trunks of cars. In and out of community. We`ve done neighborhood canvasses and road checks.

And so we`ve done a lot of these things, and you know, all the frustrations that you`re mentioning, you know, has bred in all of these investigators. Just more and more determined to find Adji.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is a heartbreaker. Our hearts go out to this family. We pray that somehow there is a break in this case. Look at this child. If you live in that area in Florida put it in your head and say, is there anything that I know that might be helpful? A car. A person seen with this child. Give authorities a call.

Now tonight, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

SUSAN SARANDON, ACTRESS: When I first met Rose, I was just so taken by her heart. She`s the story of the power of forgiveness.

I`m Susan Sarandon and my hero fights for the survival and resettlement of refugees.

ROSE MAPENDO, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: I had seven children with me and my husband. I never, never thought that genocide can be happening in Congo. They took all the men. They were killed. They put us in the prison. They were so angry for God. When they found out that I was pregnant, I said, God, accept my life. Forgive me. I forgive those enemies. I meant my twins after the commanders tried to kill us. That day is the day I survive.

SARANDON: She`s dedicated her whole life to saving these refugees that have fallen through the cracks with Mapendo.

MAPENDO: Mapendo International is my heart. It is my answer for my prayers.

SARANDON: What Rose has done is shown there`s great capacity to move on and to forgive and to embrace life.

ANNOUNCER: Tell us about your hero at CNN.com/Heroes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Bombshell tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stunning developments in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony. Secret video allegedly showing two private investigators at the remains` location back in November had just been released.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Casey is shown with a metal rod probing the ground in about general area where Caylee`s body was eventually found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Private Investigator Jim Hoover says that Dominic Casey told him that Caylee was dead and they were going to find her.

GRACE: Is this a direct link between little Caylee`s body and the tot mom?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of officers, five days of searching, little information and still no Adji.

GRACE: Tot mom brother Lee Anthony seeking criminal immunity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A deputy connected with the Caylee Anthony case has been reassigned off the streets pending the outcome of an internal investigation.

C. ANTHONY: Do you understand how I feel?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Orange County Sheriff`s Office has just released more jailhouse video of tot mom Casey Anthony visiting with parents George and Cindy.

GRACE: U.S. Airways Airbus packed with nearly 200 passengers slams into the freezing Hudson River.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was smoke. There was fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the plane shook a bit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you get out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just luck of God, man. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Ronald Schmidt, only 18 from Newton, Kansas, killed in Iraq. Enlisting straight from high school, awarded the Bronze Star, Iraqi campaign medal and Overseas Service Bar.

He loved wrestling, trail riding the Colorado Mountains and working on his car. He leaves behind grieving mom Andrea, Uncle Paul and two brothers.

Ronald Schmidt, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights and thanks to you at home for tracking these very important cases with us.

Nancy Grace back tomorrow tonight 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern, and be sure to tune in right here at 7:00 p.m. Eastern for "ISSUES" with me, Jane Velez- Mitchell. Meantime, have a happy and a safe evening.

END

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 08:01:36 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Anthony Attorney Rumored Seeking Entertainment Deal

Aired January 19, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell. Just released, an angry confrontation between tot mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy, the tot mom claiming she`s the victim! Right. She said she is the victim. She`s still blaming the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, for the kidnap and murder of little Caylee, even threatens to walk out on her parents` visit when they press for answers about Caylee.

And the tot mom defense wants the trial moved out of town. Why? We also learn cops trying their best to match clothing found with Caylee`s skeleton back to clothing found in the Anthony home. And to top it all off tonight, is the tot mom defense attorney actually trying to land his own TV entertainment deal?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: She could be out of the country or anywhere.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Mom, I don`t want to...

CINDY ANTHONY: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... have us go into the same thing that...

CINDY ANTHONY: I know.

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... so please stop it!

Do you understand how I feel? You don`t understand! Everybody wants me to have answers. Do you really understand how I feel in this? I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on. I`m frustrated and I`m angry. I have no one to talk to! Nobody`s letting me speak.

I don`t want to be one of those thousands of parents that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their child again.

I have no one to comfort me but myself.

I need to be looked at as a victim. I sat with Jose and I watched that episode of NANCY GRACE and the stuff that was being said about Mom and being said about me.

The media`s going to have a frickin` field day with this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the search for an 11-year-old Kansas boy placed in a foster/adoptive home. His disappearance only comes to light when his adopted sister calls the state to ask what became of him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A sudden break in the case of a missing Kansas boy, Adam Herrman, who disappeared over 10 years ago but was never reported missing. The chief prosecutor in the case says Adam`s parents are now suspects in the boy`s disappearance and they could face first-degree murder charges. Acting on a tip, authorities found items of interest in an area where Adam used to live with his family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives from three area police forces searched a field in Towanda, looking for a possible gravesite or the remains of Adam Herrman. Even if detectives don`t find a body, it wouldn`t keep the district attorney from filing murder charges in the case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators won`t reveal what they found but said chemical tests may be conducted on those items. Members of Adam`s family have allegedly witnessed Adam being severely abused at the hands of his mother, including locking him in the bathroom and forcing him to sleep in the bathtub.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doug and Valerie Herrman never reported their adopted son missing, claiming Adam ran away after he was hit with a belt and they feared they would lose their other foster children if police found out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adam`s parents had told relatives that the boy was returned to state custody because of his behavior, all the while collecting money from the state as if he was still living there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, they`re lying. There`s no two ways about that.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. New stunning and disturbing meetings between tot mom and George and Cindy Anthony behind bars, the tot mom even threatening to walk out on her own parents when they want answers, all the while the tot mom claiming she is the victim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, can someone let me -- come on! I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now.

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: Let me speak for a second. Dad, I let everybody talk.

I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on. I`m so beyond frustrated with -- with all of this. Yes, I know the most negative stuff that`s being said and it`s sickening. It`s disgusting, and people really need to get a life.

Right now, I`m so hurt by everything, I don`t even know what to say. I can`t even swallow right now, it hurts. I can`t even think straight at this moment. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.

Life`s not fair. People aren`t always going to be nice. If they have nothing positive to say, need to shut up.

This is the most agitated and frustrated that I`ve been.

I`ll try to help them in whatever way that I can, but if they come in here attacking me, they`re not getting (DELETED). Sorry.

My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me!

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: You`re the boss.

CASEY ANTHONY: I may have been the boss walking in here, but the roles have surely changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: If she can`t swallow, then why is she ordering up all those snacks and treats for herself on a weekly basis?

Out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood One radio, joining us from Florida. Rory, what`s the latest? What can tell you tell me about the possibility that attorney Jose Baez is seeking an entertainment deal?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO: Well, good evening, Nancy. Yes, there,are some reports coming out tonight that Baez perhaps is engaging in some type of a deal that would be contingent on the outcome the case. Now, exactly what that means is a little uncertain. And what -- and any type of deal like that is strictly prohibited by the Florida bar. So we`re certain to get denials from him starting tomorrow.

GRACE: Kathi Belich with WFTV, an entertainment deal? Are we talking about TV? And contingent on whether he wins or loses? Isn`t that, if it`s true, a conflict of interest, a huge conflict of interest?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, I think that`s what the concern is. There have been rumors for months that he might be steering this case in the direction as to what would make a better story. A trial would add more drama to the story. There have been concerns and rumors. It`s just risen to a level now where, apparently, a complaint was made with prosecutors. Prosecutors haven`t decided whether they`ll...

GRACE: A complaint?

BELICH: ... ask for a hearing to get to the bottom of it.

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You said a complaint with the prosecutors. Is it a bar complaint, or has someone just simply called the prosecutor`s office?

BELICH: I think it`s a call to the prosecutor`s office.

GRACE: And from who?

BELICH: That`s unclear.

GRACE: Well, what are our choices, Kathi Belich? Who do we believe is suggesting Jose Baez has an entertainment deal?

BELICH: I think people close to the Anthony family are concerned about that. I think there have been rumors flying about that and concerns flying about that for months. And as I said, it seems to have risen to a level of a complaint to prosecutors. And they`re not -- haven`t decided whether they will actually ask for a hearing so that everybody can get to the bottom of it.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Sharon in Wisconsin. Hi, Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been watching this ever since this all started. And do you think that Casey is finally cracking? I mean, the way she`s acting, do you think she`s finally cracking to where she might...

GRACE: Hold on, Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... say anything?

GRACE: You mean fussing (ph) out her parents? Is that what you`re talking about?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon?

GRACE: You mean fussing out here parents?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, she hasn`t said anything since she`s been in jail, and now she`s kind of being obnoxious on TV.

GRACE: Well, do you believe that`s really a change in her behavior?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t, but...

GRACE: Me, either.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think she`s, like, psychologically maybe cracking up to where she might tell the truth?

GRACE: I don`t see it, Sharon in Wisconsin. I wish that would be true, but I don`t see it.

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, to your knowledge, has there been any change in her position? I mean, in these new jailhouse -- newly released jailhouse tapes, doesn`t she still blame the nanny?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes. And you have to remember that these tapes, while they just were released, they were actually taken way back in August. So this isn`t some conversation that she just had. While we`ve just gotten our hands on these videos, these really portray how she was thinking way back in August. So it`s not an exact up-to-date image of how she`s thinking at this moment. This is how she was thinking way back in August.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who actually helped look for little Caylee. Leonard, what about it? Do you think there`s any way this mom is going to crack and tell the truth?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No. No.

GRACE: No way.

PADILLA: She`s already -- she`s already made up her mind. What she has said already, what she`s relayed either to Lee or to her attorney, it`s not going to change. She`s going to stick with it to the end.

GRACE: Just released, bombshell, jailhouse tapes where the tot mom actually says she is the victim. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, then...

CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Go, sweetheart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I was in Lake County two days ago.

CASEY ANTHONY: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there anything there?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom! I`m sorry. I love you guys. I miss you...

CINDY ANTHONY: All right, sweetheart. Here`s Dad. Hold on.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m going to hang up and just walk away right now because...

CINDY ANTHONY: No, please, don`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... I`m frustrated and I`m angry and I don`t want to be angry. This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time. But I`m so beyond frustrated with -- with all of this that I can`t even swallow right now, it hurts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, all those snacks have got to be going somewhere. We`ll be back in 30 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Lawyers Anne Bremner, Randy Zelin, Eleanor Dixon. Anne, Bremner, a TV deal based on how the case comes out? I don`t think I`d like that...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... if I were looking at the death penalty.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, absolutely not. I mean, this is something where you stand in the shoes of your client. And the fact is, you don`t stand in the shoes of "Inside Edition" or "Entertainment Tonight" or "Showbiz Tonight" or anybody else. It`s a clear conflict of interest.

GRACE: Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I completely agree. And if there`s a law against it, he should be prosecuted.

GRACE: Randy, if there`s a law against it? Of course it is. It`s called the Ethical Canons.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s a disaster. And if I`m the prosecutor I don`t want to try this case again based upon ineffective assistance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: You guys have given everything to the police. They`re not helping us. It`s obvious. We know their intentions. So I`m sorry. I`ve helped in every way that I possibly can since the day I got here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK, let me ask...

CASEY ANTHONY: They didn`t even give me 24 hours to help them, the police, without putting me here. So it`s obvious where everybody`s intentions lie. I know you guys want Caylee. I want Caylee more than -- than anybody can understand, but I can`t do anything. I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think that she could be out of country or anywhere?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want to...

CINDY ANTHONY: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... have us go into the same thing that it`s always been.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: So please stop it! This is why I chose -- this is one of the main reasons that I chose Dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking me the same questions 500 times over, like you and Lee have done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on. I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me! You don`t understand. Everybody wants me to have answers. I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on.

I have no one to talk to, except Jose when he comes. It`s the only person that I can talk to right now because I can`t even say anything to you guys, besides telling you that I love you, I want Caylee, things like that, and that`s not even getting put on the air, which it should be. It`s everything else, everything that I`m not saying.

That`s why I haven`t been calling. That`s why I haven`t been taking calls, because haven`t I said that we weren`t going do that because I`m trying to make sure that I`m not going to get anybody anything else to throw against me. And even with me giving them nothing, they`re still doing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There you heard the tot mom behind bars in an angry confrontation with her parents. And she actually says, Mom, this is why I don`t want to talk to you, because you keep asking me questions. Elizabeth, do you have that sound? Let`s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think that she could be out of country or anywhere?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want to...

CINDY ANTHONY: I know, I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... (INAUDIBLE) go into the same thing that it`s always been.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: So please stop it! This is why I chose -- this is one of the main reasons that I chose Dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking me the same questions 500 times over, like you and Lee have done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What about it, Dr. Leslie Austin?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: ... totally consistent. I`m sure she sees herself as the victim, but the same denial she`s been in since the very beginning. It`s completely consistent with a sociopathic personality pattern.

GRACE: OK, you know, I don`t know what you just said, but what I`m asking about is -- she says, Mom, I don`t want to talk to you because you keep asking me questions.

AUSTIN: Right. She...

GRACE: That`s why I want to talk to Dad.

AUSTIN: Right. She wants to be left alone. She really believes she`s the victim. It`s a sociopathic point of view. It`s not reality.

GRACE: Was that the way it was inside the home, Leonard Padilla, when you were there?

PADILLA: Yes.

GRACE: Explain.

PADILLA: I`m telling you -- I`m telling you they wouldn`t confront her. They wouldn`t challenge her. Many times, there was the ability for her to jump up and say, Well, let`s go find Caylee, Let`s do this, let`s do that, but she never did. And nobody confronted her, not Lee, not her dad, not George`s friend and certainly not Cindy. Nobody confronted her.

GRACE: Here is more of the stunning jailhouse video showing the confrontation between the tot mom and her parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: None of us have anything right now, Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: But you guys have each other. You`re sitting next to Dad. You still have Lee. You have access to our community, to our family and friends, to our house. You`re taking for granted the fact that I have no one to comfort me but myself and the occasional visit, which has to be business for the sake of finding Caylee. So yes, I may look like I`m in charge. Wrong. I`m completely pushed away from everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: How did you get through last Saturday?

CASEY ANTHONY: I didn`t. I spent the day almost completely by myself with my head under the covers. I read my Bible almost the entire day. I was miserable, just completely and utterly miserable, just like I have been the entire time. That was the first time outside of our visits that I`ve really shown any emotion, and I was open and I didn`t care just because I couldn`t hold anything back. I broke down. It was the first time that I truly, truly broke down. And it hurt and I`m still recovering from that. I`ve been hearing about the fact that Mom was making chili and there was probably a bunch of people at the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, darn, she missed a party at the house, a chili party. She`s talking about what would have been little Caylee`s 3rd birthday, but according to prosecutors, that never happened because she murdered little Caylee.

To Eleanor Dixon. Do you think a jury will ever hear all this intense self-absorption?

DIXON: Probably not. I bet all these videotapes will be kept out of evidence...

GRACE: Why?

DIXON: ... but you never know. Well, because they`re private, to some extent, conversations, but they don`t go to prove her motive and any of that, as far as the crime is concerned.

GRACE: Well, doesn`t her demeanor and her continued explanation that nanny Zenaida Gonzalez did this -- wouldn`t that be probative?

DIXON: It might be probative, that small part of what she said to her parents. But I bet the jury`s going to see her demeanor in the courtroom all over the place.

GRACE: Look -- look, do you see her shaking her fist at her own mother? And yet George and Cindy Anthony continue to support her, even publicly stating they also believe Zenaida Gonzalez stole the little girl and killed her.

Out to the lines. Stephanie in Florida. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. This goes to the question of effective counsel. Would any lawyer want to keep this circus going and not have Casey settle at all and not even bring that up to her?

GRACE: Some lawyers would. Let`s go out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon from Atlanta, joining us tonight in our Manhattan studios, high- profile lawyer Anne Bremner in the Seattle jurisdiction, and Randy Zelin, veteran defense attorney also in New York. What about it, Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: Well, absolutely. And the fact is, it`s like, you know, I`m on TV, therefore I am. This case -- the only way that the lawyer stays in the spotlight is if the case goes to trial. And I`m reminded of that Oscar Wilde quote, I`m always thinking...

GRACE: Oh, no. No, please! Not another quote!

BREMNER: Nancy, but I`m not quoting our forefathers on the eve of our inauguration. I`m talking about Oscar Wilde this time...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Go ahead. Get it out of your system.

BREMNER: I am. But thank you. But I`m always thinking about myself, and I expect everyone else to do the same. That`s what this is, a bonfire of the vanities Florida style, and it`s got to stop.

GRACE: So Randy Zelin, let`s translate that into trial tactics. If he wants the best possible deal for his client, he needs her to `fess up and take a plea on, maybe they`ll throw them a bone and give them voluntary 20 years to serve. I don`t think it`s going to happen. I think they`re going to go for murder one. And with this continued behavior, I think the death penalty could be back on the table, Randy.

ZELIN: Well, I think part of the problem here as far as plea negotiations is that the prosecution has done a lousy job of not giving her any incentive. Given the fact that they`ve taken the death penalty...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait!

ZELIN: ... off the table...

GRACE: Let me see your face, please. Zelin, did you say that it`s the prosecutor`s fault because they haven`t offered a sweetheart deal?

ZELIN: I agree. That`s exactly what I`m saying!

GRACE: No, did you just say that?

ZELIN: Yes, that`s what I`m saying.

GRACE: OK.

ZELIN: If you have the death penalty on the table, and now all of these new -- this new evidence that perhaps Mr. Baez has got some side deal going on -- this is a disaster. What you need to do is, you`ve got to get the death penalty on the table. You`ve got to get rid of these lawyers working for free. Now you really put her back up against the wall.

GRACE: Eleanor?

DIXON: I didn`t think it was the prosecutor`s job to offer them a sweetheart deal. It`s our job to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, and it`s murder in this case.

GRACE: I want to go back to the possible TV deal. Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand it`s a media entertainment deal the lawyer allegedly is seeking. Is it TV? Is he going to be the next Judge Judy?

BELICH: I don`t know if...

GRACE: I better call Judge Judy tonight and warn her.

(LAUGHTER)

BELICH: I don`t know if there are specifics about that. I think there are concerns and possible rumors about that. I don`t know how -- I don`t know the specifics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think she`s going to change her mind and let her -- I mean, what can I say to her on the air? Because I can get one person to let me say what I need to say or what you want me to say to Zanny. What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that we forgive her. All we want is -- is our Caylee. That`s it.

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, that`s -- again, that`s all I can think of. That`s all I can (INAUDIBLE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as the victim because I`m just as much of a victim...

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you, and it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be. But I know that and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. To Julie in Kentucky. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. And I want to make a quick comment first.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t understand George and Cindy because I have a 2-year-old son, and I lived with my parents for six months while he was born because husband`s a truck driver. And they don`t go a day without speaking to him. So I don`t understand why they didn`t turn him (SIC) in sooner. And my question is, has George and Cindy spoken to Casey since the body has been found?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Do you think she`s going to change her mind and let her -- I mean, what can I say to her on the air? Because I can get one person to let me say what I need to say or what you want me to say to Zanny.

What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Just tell her that we forgive her. That all we want is -- is our Caylee. That`s it. That`s all.

CINDY ANTHONY: I said that yesterday.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, that`s -- again, that`s all that I can think of. That`s all that I can say.

This is, seriously, the first time that I`ve been angry. That I have been this frustrated to where I -- I can`t even think straight at this moment. Throughout this entire thing. I was pissed off that day at the police station, I was mad when all of that happened, but I tried to look at things subjectively and this entire time I haven`t sat in my room for the entire month and been mad. Not once, not one time.

But right now, this is the most agitated and frustrated that I`ve been even when I sat with Jose and I watched that episode of NANCY GRACE and the stuff that was being said about mom and being said about me and Tim and everybody else and stuff that I`ve heard, it`s frustrated me but I`ve let it go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood One Radio.

Rory, what can you tell me about reports that clothing -- and this is from the Anthonys` attorney, former attorney. What about clothing found with Caylee`s body that police were trying to match up to clothing or something in the Anthony home.

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO, COVERING STORY: Well, this is from the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, the parents of Casey and grandparents to Caylee. The clothing in question is clothing that was recovered from her body or from the scene of -- where her bones were discovered.

This was a search warrant that was executed at the house, right after the bones were discovered. They were trying to find clothing in the home that may have matched the clothing at the scene and they also -- we might learn more about exactly what was collected this week from the evidence list that was on that search warrant.

GRACE: Why? Why do you think that we`ll find out more about what was taken out of home?

O`NEILL: That`s one of the pieces of information that`s expected to go public this week and be released by the court.

GRACE: To former NYPD deputy inspector Ron Shindel. Ron, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the possibility, the -- report that are surfacing, police found clothing in the bag along with Caylee`s skeleton and they`re trying to match it up to clothing in the home.

RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, that makes sense. You know you want to see what evidence you have at the scene and you want to try to match it up with evidence that`s known in other places to try to show some connection between what they found at the scene and the home. That makes total sense, Nancy.

GRACE: And Ron, very quickly, we know that more discovery is going to be released this week. That would include the search warrant from the home and the return. Explain what those are.

SHINDEL: Well, the search warrant from the home is going to show everything that they`ve taken out of there. They`re going to let -- through discovery, they`re going to release it and we`re going to find out more details, more intimate details about each piece of evidence that`s going to come out.

GRACE: You know, typically, Eleanor Dixon, police have a search warrant. They go to a judge -- tell the judge why they`ve got to go into the home and they`ve got to articulate, specifically, what they are looking for in the home and why they think it would still be there. If they find other items of interest while they are lawfully there, they can seize that. The search return is a list of what is taken from the home.

What do you make of trying to match up items to what they found along with Caylee`s skeletons?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, think it might show you where the murder also took place. It could be something in the home that shows, maybe the murder took place there, as opposed to the trunk of the car. So you never know.

But even more interesting in the body of the search warrant, will give facts leading up to the reasons why the police want to search the home.

GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think as I look at this the best defense now is to look at a nondeath penalty case. Remember in the Jessica Lunsberg case, Nancy, we had the whole issue, a non-unanimous jury in a death penalty case in Florida, the only state where that`s an issue.

GRACE: OK, what we were talking about is the search warrant and the return...

BREMNER: I know. I was -- OK. I`ll go back to the search warrant and the return, Nancy. In the fact that that`s absolutely right and the return shows the items that come back from the search warrant. You have to stay in the four corners of the search warrant.

In terms of what you`re taking, you can always go back again. Some cases have hundreds of search warrants.

GRACE: Randy Kessler, attorney for the Anthonys also stated he did not see anything about duct tape being searched for or found in the home.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, this is just another strange thing. This is something else for the defense to use. I mean the.

GRACE: Why?

ZELIN: You`re going to have a treasure trove of information coming from the affidavit in support of the search warrant.

GRACE: A treasure trove. Did you just see the bags taken out of home? That`s a treasure trove of evidence.

ZELIN: And what have they gotten from that when you.

GRACE: Well, a murder one indictment to start with.

ZELIN: Well, and you know something? Right now, do you really think that murder one indictment is going to hold up?

GRACE: Yes.

ZELIN: There`s no proof that she intentionally murdered this child. In fact right now she`s still presumed innocent.

GRACE: How do you explain the duct tape around the mouth?

ZELIN: That could have gone on a wild prosecution theory. The best -- the best theory is, that it was done to quiet the child. Not to kill the child.

GRACE: Randy, do you have children?

ZELIN: Yes, I do, I have three children.

GRACE: OK, and I`m sure they made a lot of noise. Have you have ever put duct tape around their mouth?

ZELIN: You`re asking me, not as a human being, not as a defense lawyer. They`re two completely.

GRACE: Is that a yes or a no?

ZELIN: Absolutely never ever.

GRACE: Why? Didn`t you want them to be quiet?

ZELIN: It would be silly for even.

GRACE: What?

ZELIN: . articulate a reason for it.

GRACE: Yes, just as silly as your last answer was.

ZELIN: Absolutely not.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Patty in Florida. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, according to the tape that we were just watching.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was done in August. She had only been charged with child neglect or child abuse at that time, but she said she couldn`t say anything because it would be used against her if it went to trial.

GRACE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So was she planning on taking the original charge to trial?

GRACE: It`s my understanding that she was.

What about it, Drew Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, she maintain -- her lawyer has maintained that she is innocent in that trial as well. We don`t know how exactly she is because it seems like there`s pretty solid evidence against her with her -- video of her going shopping, basically, on her friend`s -- on her friend`s account.

So it doesn`t seem very likely that she`s innocent in that but she maintains that she is and her lawyer maintains that he`ll prove that she is in the court of law.

GRACE: And to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver.

Dr. Arnall, thank you for being with us. Still no funeral in sight and the defense claims they`ve got to wait on toxicology results. Toxicology only comes from tissue. So why can`t they bury the bones? They`ve done their own autopsy. Why can`t they have their a funeral?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: They may be waiting for the prosecution expert to commit themselves, see what they`ve said in writing, and look for specific details to either support or contradict what the prosecution expert commits in writing.

GRACE: Excellent response. Now I -- get a glimpse into their thinking.

Stunning new jailhouse tapes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: You`ll be fine once Caylee`s found.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I understand that. Do you understand my position on this? You guys expect me to have a thousand answers and I have nothing. I`ve been here a month. Out of contact with everybody except you guys on the rare occasion that I get to see you and my attorney.

Do you -- do you understand? What am I supposed to learn from that? What am I supposed to learn from that? The first week and a half, yes, I tried to help you guys backtrack. Again, that`s all I could do was backtrack. I can`t backtrack on anything. A month, I`ve been removed from the situation. You guys are not understanding my side on this and I`m sorry.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, I understand. We need to have something to go on.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this? I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on. I wonder -- I`m wondering if there is something new.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And very quickly, Kathi Belich, WFTV, the defense wants to take the trial out of town. To where?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: We`ve heard, possibly, Jacksonville, possibly Miami. I`ve heard speculation he wants to go where they don`t trust law enforcement because he has to attack the evidence. Don`t know. He hasn`t filed the paper work yet.

GRACE: Everybody, we`re going to break. We are taking your calls live. But right now a special get-well to Alabama friend of the show, Jordan Brooks. Jordan is fighting pancreatic and kidney cancer.

Jordan, you are an inspiration to us. Please stay strong.

And tonight, happy birthday to a Vietnamese friend of our show, Mikey Batek.

Happy birthday, Mikey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Do you still think she`s OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know in my heart, mom. I know in my gut she`s all right. I can feel it. Every day that gets stronger and I still know she`s coming home. I can still feel that, that she`s coming home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The chief prosecutor in the case of a missing Kansas boy say the parents are now suspects in his disappearance. 11-year-old Adam Herrman disappeared from his Wichita area May of 1999. Only problem is, Adam`s parents never reported him missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The district attorneys admit it appears there`s already enough evidence to arrest them on something. But she says she won`t until the investigation is completed. She says she wants to make sure one jury hears all the charges connected to this case at one time. Eliminating any possibility of double jeopardy and clearing any possible due process hurdles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The adoptive/foster parents continue to collect checks for taking care of this little boy to the tune of $80,000. Years passing by after he disappeared, according to them.

Out to Julie Clements, editor with the "El Dorado Times." Julie, thank you for being with us. What happened?

JULIE CLEMENTS, EDITOR, EL DORADO TIMES, COVERING STORY: Well, it looks like they`re still investigating this case. It broke probably about five weeks ago when the police received a tip, an anonymous tip, through the Missing Exploited Child`s line in Wichita. This boy had been missing for about 10 years now. It was reported.

GRACE: Take a look, everyone, at this little boy. This is what he looked like when he went missing. It`s my understanding -- out to Eleanor Dixon, Anne Bremner and Randy Zelin -- that police only became aware he was missing when his adoptive sister called the state to find out what became of her little brother that her parents took in so many years ago.

And they said, oh, well, he was still in the home. And she says, well, no. He`s been gone for many, many years. Now the parents are not charged with anything yet, Anne Bremner. What do you make of it.

BREMNER: Well, at least there`s a price, of course, with the collection of the money. But I think -- some of the crimes on neglect have statute of limitation right now and then you`ve got to look at it. If you`re going to go with some kind of homicide, that`s going to be a quantum leap and of course double jeopardy will attach if you fall short of it which they will may in charging right now on lack of evidence.

GRACE: To Julie Clements with the "El Dorado Times," Julie, didn`t the sister, the adoptive sister, and others state that they observed the parents abusing this little boy?

CLEMENTS: Yes, there has been reports from family members that they have seen abuse, such as locking him in the bathroom and handcuffing him in there. Parents said it was to keep him from running away. But there`s definitely been reports of -- that abuse has been witnessed.

GRACE: Joining me right now is the biological mother of Adam Herrman, Gerri George, is with us.

Miss George, thank you for being with us.

GERRI GEORGE, MOTHER OF MISSING BOY, ADAM HERRMAN: Thank you for me allowing me on her.

GRACE: Tell me, when did you learn Adam was missing?

GEORGE: I would say around the first part of January when my biological daughter Tiffany had called me.

GRACE: Tell me something, Miss George, why did you give him up for adoption?

GEORGE: I did not give him up for adoption.

GRACE: Oh.

GEORGE: The Department of Social Service took him away on the grounds that I had hurt my oldest daughter. They said that once you have one child removed, they shall all be removed.

GRACE: Did you keep up with him over the years?

GEORGE: After my rights was terminated, I was able to see him one more time but at -- when my rights was terminated the courts had informed me that if I saw him again, I will go to prison. To protect my children I stayed away.

GRACE: What have you done, if anything, since you learned he has been missing all these years?

GEORGE: I have been appearing on different shows. Like News Channel 9 and Colorado 3 in Wichita. Phone call on "LARRY KING." Now I`m getting ready to do a "Dr. Phil Show" tomorrow, taping that. I pray every day. I try to figure out where he might be at.

GRACE: Let me go to the lawyers very quickly. Eleanor Dixon, Anne Bremner, Randy Zelin.

Eleanor, where was DFAC, Department of Family and Children Services? I mean you work for the state, I worked for the state many, many years and it pains me because they are an arm of the state.

Did you know, Eleanor, that there were complaints about abuse in the home? They took the child out and they put him back in? Now, he`s dead. Where were they when this boy was chained to the bathroom sink being beaten and starved?

DIXON: Well, Nancy, they`re supposed to check a case.

GRACE: I know what they`re supposed to do, Eleanor.

DIXON: And they didn`t do that, and they can also be found responsible.

GRACE: But they never are, Eleanor. DFAC drops the ball. Children die. And they just continue going to work and drinking their coffee and eating their doughnut.

Please explain it to me, Eleanor. Have you have seen this boy? Liz, show her the little boy again. Ten years he`s been gone. Nobody says a darn thing.

DIXON: And, Nancy, that was the tragedy with a lot of things in DFAC. And lawyers have sued DFAC and come to the states and said you`ve got to make it better and unfortunately their excuse is, well, we`re overworked, we`re underpaid which is true to some extent.

GRACE: Well, so are we as prosecutors.

DIXON: Exactly. But again it is a problem that we see system-wide with DFAC but there are also a lot of good officers out there with DFAC.

GRACE: Yes, OK. Thanks. I didn`t ask you to give me a glowing report about the good officers. I know there are some. What I`m trying to find out, Randy Zelin, is can action be taken against Department of Family Children Services who dropped the ball?

ZELIN: Look, it`s not going to bring Adam back.

GRACE: Yes, no?

ZELIN: Assuming something happened to him, but absolutely, yes. They`re negligent. They had an obligation, a duty, to this child. They completely blew off of that duty. And as a result, you can make an argument, that`s why 10 years now this child`s gone.

GRACE: What was the nature of the alleged abuse? Again the parents have not been charged with the murder or kidnap of this child as of tonight.

Julie Clements, what`s nature the alleged abuse against them?

CLEMENTS: What I`ve heard reports from are -- like I said the locking in the bathroom. Also possibly beating him by the adopted mother. Mainly fist abuse, you know, things people said.

GRACE: No, I don`t know. According to our reports, spanking with belt, kicking, punching, stepped on him with heels, threw him up against the wall, chained him to the bathroom, locked in the bath room.

There`s not how a child shall be treated, 11 years old at the time of his disappearance. But this had been going on for some time.

Out to the lines, Valerie in North Carolina. Hi, Valerie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re my hero. We watch you every night.

GRACE: I don`t deserve that, but thank you, and thank you for watching. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, my question is why did social services never go to that home and why did the parents continue to get money and why did the schools not noticed him getting beaten? I mean, this is not right.

GRACE: No, it`s not, and to you, Eleanor Dixon, teachers have a legal duty if they see bruises or suspect abuse to turn in the parents, to at least report the alleged possible abuse. I mean, this child has been failed on so many levels. And now he`s dead.

DIXON: And it`s awful. And DFAC should be held accountable and responsible.

GRACE: And very quickly, Anne Bremner, what about it?

BREMNER: Well, absolutely. But -- this whole case cries out for answers from even -- the parents all the way to the state, all authorities, it`s just horrific.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We stop now to remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the great civil rights leader who lost his life in the pursuit of justice for all Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR., CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: We`ve got to give ourselves to this struggle until the end. Nothing would be more tragic than to stop at this point in Memphis. We`ve got to see it through.

And all the world today knows that we are here and we are standing before the forces of power in the state of Alabama saying we ain`t going to let nobody turn us around.

Like anybody, I would like to live a long life, longevity has its place. And I`ve seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight that we, as a people, will get to the promised land.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Jonathan Menke, 22, Madison, Indiana, killed Iraq. A National Guard, military policeman, trained Iraqi police, joined the National Guard junior year of high school. Honor student with a booming voice.

Loved musical theater, football, track, leaves behind parents Dan and Paula, sisters Nicole and Kristen, brother Matthew.

Jonathan Menke, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Florida friend of the show, Heather, and New York friend of the show, Stephanie.

Aren`t they beautiful?

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 08:30:06 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Heart-Shaped Sticker Found Over Mouth on Caylee`s Skull

Aired January 21, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is shocking, Nancy. Thank you. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.

Bombshell. We obtain brand-new police documents inside the investigation, stunning details revealed in the last hours. Little Caylee`s remains, her tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash! Also used, a laundry bag. Certainly, that laundry hamper bag is traceable. And a heartbreaking touch added to the murder scene, a child`s heart-shaped sticker purposely placed over the duct tape on little Caylee`s mouth, placed there clearly by the killer.

And did tot mom callously joke about feeding Caylee baby medicine to knock her out? We have evidence she did. And is the bar investigating tot mom`s defense lawyer?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I don`t want to be here so that I can be at home so that I can get Caylee back faster. That`s the only reason. That`s all I care about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigative documents show duct tape was found on the mouth area of the skull later identified as little Caylee`s. CSI experts even had to cut hair attached to the skull just to remove the duct tape. When the remains were brought to the lab, investigators discovered that a heart-shaped sticker had been intentionally placed on the duct tape. Along with the remains, the black garbage bag founded in the wooded area also contained a 2-year-old`s clothing and a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on! I`m frustrated and I`m angry. I have no one to talk to. Nobody`s letting me speak!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities also released two search warrants executed after the remains were found, and they detail some of the items investigators were looking for, including the clothes Caylee was wearing the day she was last seen by grandfather George Anthony.

CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as a victim because I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, stunning bombshells obtained in the last hours.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just released new documents showing duct tape was on the mouth area of the skull when it was found by meter reader Roy Kronk back in December. Along with the duct tape, investigators also found other items in the black garbage bag that contained some of the remains, including clothing for a toddler and a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket. Testing revealed that not only was the duct tape attached to both ends of the child`s hair, but someone intentionally put a heart-shaped sticker on the duct tape.

CASEY ANTHONY: Do you understand how I feel? You don`t understand! Everybody wants me to have answers. I don`t have any answers. I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell is going on. I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The over 300 pages of new evidence shows that grandparents George and Cindy Anthony were at work and not home during the March 21st computer searches for neck breaking and how to make chloroform.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have to keep my mouth shut about how I feel and with everything else because all I need to do is give the media more stuff for the detectives and whoever else to throw back in my face when this goes to trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich joining us from WFTV. Kathi, stunning bombshells revealed inside the police investigation. Tell me where all the information came from.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: It came from, basically, documents that were released today to the public. The defense has gotten those documents recently, I believe last week. And once that happens, according to Florida law, it becomes public record.

GRACE: No, what are the documents? What are they?

BELICH: There are search warrants that have been released. There are reports of interviews with some of the witnesses, some of the phone records that have been released, those types of things.

GRACE: Take a look at this stack of documents. We have been sifting through them ever since they have been released. Importantly, in this stack of documents, the search warrant, a lot of information about what was found buried, or should I say thrown to the side of the road into a heavily-wooded area, along with little Caylee.

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what was inside the bag? You know what? Let`s start with the bag. I understand it was a black plastic -- a generic black plastic bag. But inside, a laundry hamper bag?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, that`s right. It was actually double- bagged. Also in there with Caylee Anthony`s remains were the shirt, shorts with vertical stripes, and the small cloth iron-type letters, and also a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket.

But one of the other things that we learned today that`s very interesting, we heard that her mouth was covered with duct tape. Investigators -- the latent imprint investigators, they found an imprint on that duct tape of a heart, and they analyzed that and they found the imprint was made by a sticker. At that scene, they also found that sticker. So they say somebody intentionally put a heart sticker over the duct tape that was actually over Caylee`s mouth inside this bag. This all came out in hundreds of pages of information, as Kathi said, that was released today.

GRACE: You know, we are just looking at just-released video behind bars of the tot mom railing on her parents, who are there just trying to help her. And if the state is correct, this is the person who put duct tape, thick industrial duct tape, across her little girl`s mouth. We learned the duct tape had to be cut away by the autopsy doctors because it was still stuck in the child`s hair.

And now we learn -- out to Stacy Dittrich -- that a heart-shaped sticker -- it`s hard to look at the tot mom and imagine her doing this.

STACY DITTRICH, FORMER DETECTIVE: You can`t.

GRACE: A heart-shaped sticker placed over the mouth on the duct tape. Stacy Dittrich, former detective and author of "The Devil`s Closet," that is some really good police work, to notice that -- first, I guess the autopsy revealed a heart-shaped imprint of a sticky, of adhesive. Can they go out and actually find the little sticker?

DITTRICH: It`s amazing police work, which is what they`ve done clear up until now. And with the adhesive on the duct tape, it tells me that it was actually -- it`s been there a while. It was old. It fell off. And for them to find that -- again, the Orange County sheriff`s department throughout this whole thing has been amazing and done a great job with this. This is just another piece of the puzzle that they`re going to solve.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Robin Sax, prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters: What Every Parent Needs to Know to Keep Kids Safe," Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and Paul Batista, defense attorney in New York and author of "Death`s Witness."

Robin Sax, a lot of forensic evidence can be gained from not only the duct tape but that sticker. Explain.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. Well, the sticker itself, you can be able to date back and look at the adhesive to see how long maybe that sticker was put on, at what time, what -- and maybe look at that as a clue for premeditation and calculation. What information can you get about that? Not to mention the ability to then compare the sticker to whatever stickers may exist in the Anthony home.

GRACE: And we know, Renee Rockwell and Paul Batista, police went specifically to the home and got the search warrant to look for sticker books. You know, I now know from going through the child`s section in the bookstore, there are reams of sticker books for children. They went to the home looking for them.

And let`s just get real with it, Renee Rockwell. You`ve defended many, many violent felonies. How often does a random killer just bother to bury the child or discard the child with her favorite Winnie-the-Pooh blanket and some of her little favorite dolls?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, why would he do that if he was trying -- he or she was trying to get rid of all the evidence? I would be more concerned with...

GRACE: Are you telling me that a little horsie doll is murder evidence?

ROCKWELL: It could be, if it was at someone`s house and someone wanted to get rid of it. But Nancy, what`s more...

GRACE: Why would you randomly -- oh, take a look, Renee. Notice that the child`s room -- this is video we have obtained from inside little Caylee`s room -- is done in Winnie-the-Pooh motif. I don`t know if you`re familiar with that, Renee, or not, but you`re looking at Winnie-the-Pooh motif everywhere. That blanket clearly -- come on, Vegas odds -- taken out of the child`s room. Who would do that?

ROCKWELL: Nancy...

GRACE: What?

ROCKWELL: ... not who would do that. Somebody obviously did that.

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: That is not going to be as important, where that blanket came from, as where that duct tape came from. That`s more of a threat to the defense attorneys, whether or not they`re going to find hairs or skin cells or any type of physical evidence on that duct tape. That`s what someone else is shaking about right now, not the blanket.

GRACE: I think it all is damning, Paul Batista.

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Nancy, I don`t see that. How many millions of children are in Winnie-the-Pooh blankets? What I`d like to know, Nancy, is...

GRACE: Mine aren`t.

BATISTA: What I`d like to know is whether or not...

GRACE: Mine aren`t!

BATISTA: ... whether or not the stickers or the book of stickers was found in Casey Anthony`s home. Let`s find that out before we begin saying that this is critical evidence of her guilt. Where`s the inventory?

GRACE: OK. OK, stop. Stop right there. To Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist joining us out of LA. Stacy, please, throw me a bone here. Who else other than someone that had a relationship with the child would bother to bury her or discard her in a trash bag with her favorite blanket?

Listen, this past weekend, I took the twins to the book store in the snow. I dropped Lucy`s binkie. Can I tell you how fast I ran, backing up, up and down 7th Avenue, trying to find her favorite binkie in the snow? Long story short, who would bury the child with her favorite blanket?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nancy, you and I are on the same page. And my theory on this is as follows. We already know that Casey Anthony has a wild fantasy life about where she works and what she does, and she probably fantasized that she was putting her child to sleep for good with her blankie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: It`s just hard, I know, for you, it`s hard for us because none of us have ever been through any of this kind of stuff before, none of us, you know...

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, obviously not. And we need to stick together in this, and it`s hard for us to at this point.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, we are sticking together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... I forgive whoever has her and that I just want her to come home. I just -- just want my baby back. That`s it.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Do you think that they would actually do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what I think anymore, Mom. Just keep saying it because it`s the truth. That`s all I want. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you. And it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be, but I know that, and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like many 2-year-olds, Caylee Anthony`s bedroom was decorated with Winnie-the-Pooh characters, all the way down to the Winnie-the-Pooh bedspread. We`ve now learned that investigators found a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket inside the same plastic garbage bag containing Caylee`s body. When the detectives returned to the Anthony family home the night after recovering Caylee`s remains, they were in search of any other Winnie-the-Pooh clothing, towels or blankets that might link back to the crime scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. First to Dr. Joshua Perper, renowned medical examiner out of Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, as always, it`s an honor to have you on with us tonight. Dr. Perper, you have performed countless autopsies, well up into the thousands. Would it have been the ME, the medical examiner, that discovered the adhesive in the shape of a heart over the child`s mouth?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, this would indicate, really, there was some kind of emotional connection between the person who put the tape on the mouth and the child because an assailant, which would be indifferent to the child, wouldn`t do that. And again, the fact that this tape was around the mouth and perhaps covered the nose, as well -- this is basically the key evidence pointing to homicide.

GRACE: And Dr. Perper, how would you -- I mean, I`m got duct tape that we believe is similar to that used. How would you -- under a microscope, would you be able to determine the adhesive was in the shape of a heart?

PERPER: Well, this would be basically the responsibility of the crime lab technicians, which have the expertise and the kind of special microscope which would help them in making those determinations and helping us (ph) with their findings.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Jenny in Kentucky. Hi, Jenny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say thank you for working so hard to be a voice for victims.

GRACE: Jenny, thank you. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate you not only watching but calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I would like to know, maybe from the psychologist or maybe Leonard Padilla -- I`ve noticed when you show the tape with her parents when they`re visiting her in the jail that her father does not make direct eye contact. With him being an ex-cop, do you think he knows deep down that she could be guilty of hurting his granddaughter?

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, George Anthony has been kind of a lone voice of reason on many occasions. What do you believe?

BREMNER: He has said -- he`s told investigators, at one point, when he was questioned by them without his wife around, that he didn`t want to think that his daughter had something to do with this, but he was honest and said, I smelled a smell that I remember when I was a cop years ago, it was the smell of death and I`ll never forget it. He did come out and say that.

And there`s new evidence in these documents that were released today that showed there was a very volatile relationship between Casey and George, that they yelled at each other quite a bit. Cindy had told her co- workers that in the summer. So there was -- maybe there was friction. You know, who knows? But he had said that he had thought about that in the past, that she might have had something to do with this.

GRACE: You know, Kathi, you brought up a very interesting point. Several of Cindy Anthony`s co-workers were interrogated by police. They described around June, the month preceding the discovery that little Caylee was missing, that Cindy Anthony had been complaining, which was very unusual for her, at work about her home situation, particularly money, that George was getting tired of the tot mom being a leach, essentially.

BELICH: Yes. She was also complaining that she always was taking care of Caylee. And when a co-worker said, Well, why don`t you take custody, that co-worker told investigators Cindy said, We can`t afford it. And there was a lot of concern during that month that she was missing, before we knew she was missing, she was very concerned about what was going on, and the co-workers thought that something more should have been more done at that time.

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, joining us tonight. Nikki, in addition to the Winnie-the-Pooh blanket, which was one of her favorites -- and you only learn when you have kids how important that favorite blanket is -- there was a doll. Describe.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: There was also a toy horse of sorts.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. That`s what I meant. Excuse me. Go ahead.

PIERCE: Sure. And they actually -- on the arrest affidavit, they went to the house, looking for other toy horses that looked the same. There were also some lettering, like, iron-on style lettering, they also were searching for when they executed that search warrant.

GRACE: You know, that was very, very wise. Back to Stacy Dittrich. Stacy, I`ve learned the toy horses usually come in packs. Now, say this little horse was part of a group of toy horses. What does that mean?

DITTRICH: Well, they`re going to look for the matches, just like the sticker.

GRACE: Which shows us what?

DITTRICH: Which shows us that it came from inside that house. And what I thought was interesting that they did was that they included the photographs, any photographs inside the house, which if they don`t find the missing pieces...

GRACE: Right.

DITTRICH: ... there may be photographs that they were there at some point inside that home.

GRACE: Right.

Out to the lines. Donna in Kansas. Hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How`re you doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first I want to you know your twins are truly blessed to be loved so much by you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then I want to know if the utility worker has ever agreed to a polygraph test to prove his story.

GRACE: Interesting. What about that, Drew Petrimoulx? She`s talking about the meter reader. Would he be, has he been subjected to a polygraph?

PETRIMOULX: I haven`t heard anything about that. The only person that I know that took a polygraph in this case is Jesse Grund, Casey`s ex- fiance. (INAUDIBLE) talked about it, Roy Kronk has not said anything about taking a polygraph test.

GRACE: And I know Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter, agreed to take a polygraph. And then as soon as he did that, they quieted down about it, Leonard. Leonard, what do you make of these new revelations?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I`ll tell you, it`s a wealth of information. And a young friend of mine, Katelyn (ph), told her dad, You know, it looks like Leonard Padilla was right on more than one issue.

You take the black plastic bag with the yellow tie on it, you take the duffel bag -- which was not a duffel bag, it was a laundry bag -- clothes in the bag -- that was very important -- and then you go to a little smiley sticker that we have on a laptop that was in her room, that Tracy had back there when she was with her -- she took it off a page of little sticky things, put it right on the laptop. Now...

GRACE: Yes, you know, Leonard, we all know you told us a lot of this information over a month ago. But I`m asking you, what do you make of, for instance, the laundry hamper bag being used? Certainly, that can be traced back to the home.

PADILLA: Absolutely, and it`s going to be. But let me -- let me -- I know that I digress a lot...

GRACE: Oh, please! No tooting your own horn again.

PADILLA: No, no, no. This is...

GRACE: Please. Stop.

PADILLA: This is about something else. It has -- it has nothing to do with it.

GRACE: Not about you. OK, go ahead.

PADILLA: It`s not about me, it`s about Kronk. The situation with Kronk -- if you look at where he described that he went into the forest...

GRACE: The meter reader.

PADILLA: White bag, not black.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I want to be right there with you guys. I really do. And I know that eventually, I will be. But it can`t happen fast enough.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s very true. That`s very true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY ANTHONY: You`re still asking me if there`s anything that I can tell you that`s going to help, and I`m the one that can do this. I can`t. The opportunity was there that I probably could have helped. I`m trying. I was trying. There`s nothing more that I can say or do until I`m home, and even then, I don`t know what I can do from that point, but I can at least do something other than sit on my butt all day and read or look up stuff for my case because that has to be my focus right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: My case. My case. How about helping in the investigation revolving around her daughter`s murder?

Out to the lines. Judy in Florida. Hi, Judy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to let you know my husband and girlfriend and I watch you every night. We love you and what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to know, is there any word on when that poor baby is going to be laid to rest?

GRACE: Oh, good Lord in heaven! What about it, Nikki Pierce?

PIERCE: That`s an awfully good question. We haven`t heard a single thing about it since we learned that this second autopsy that everyone thought they were waiting for had already been done quite some time ago. We have no idea when she`s going to be laid to rest.

GRACE: So bottom line, no word.

PIERCE: No word.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Just fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She told us on our visitation, our first day of visitation that she`s protecting this -- the family from physical harm, including Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

C. ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people will look at you the wrong way?

C. ANTHONY: No, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY: It just seemed like from day one you guys are building a case against Casey as a murderer. She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve never lived up to your mother`s expectations, right?

C. ANTHONY: Please stop right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?

C. ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) that I would ever do anything or let any harm come to that child. She`s the one thing in this world that I love more than anything.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I want you to know you are the boss through this whole thing. OK?

C. ANTHONY: Well, no, I`m not anymore, dad. I haven`t been since I got here.

G. ANTHONY: Well, yes, you are. You are the -- think of this for a second.

C. ANTHONY: Dad -- I`ve been -- listen.

G. ANTHONY: Listen. OK?

C. ANTHONY: I`ve been thinking about it.

G. ANTHONY: No, just listen to me for a moment. OK, listen to me for one second. OK? Listen. Think of your -- you`re owning this. (INAUDIBLE) this as a huge business. Jose is one of your employees, so is the sheriff`s department, so is the FBI, so am I, so is Lee, so is mom, you know, we`re all working for you.

And if for some reason something is not being said or done, you can make a change. You`re the one that can say listen.

C. ANTHONY: Dad, I`ve told Jose.

G. ANTHONY: Please listen.

C. ANTHONY: No. I`ve given him the information to give you guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We`ve also learned that soil samples were taken from the scene where little Caylee was disposed of and then all the tot mom`s shoes were taken, pursuant to search warrant from her home.

And also tonight, we learn, Kathi Belich, is it true that the tot mom actually joked about knocking Caylee out with child medicine?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Yes. According to the documents, her ex-boyfriend Ricky Morales told investigators that she had joked about using baby medication to put Caylee to sleep.

He also -- they also found actually a posting on his MySpace page win her over with chloroform, sort of a poster-like thing. He said that he put it on his MySpace page because he thought it was sort of funny. He never discussed chloroform with Casey, but he said that she had access to his computer and could have seen that and the timing would have been right, the first time she researched was March 17th and they had dated in the months before that.

GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, Dr. Perper, what medicines could be used to, quote, "knock a child out"? What child medicine?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Any -- a variety of medicine from sleeping pills or pain pills such as oxycodone or.

GRACE: No, I mean, a child, like children`s medicine. What medicine do you give a child that would knock it out? Like Tylenol? Ibuprofen? What?

PERPER: Any kinds of medication which is a pain medication or is a relaxing medication can be given to a child in a drink, in a tea, and the child can -- needs only very small amounts of any kind of medication in order to be so-called knocked of or made unconscious.

GRACE: Oh, gosh. I`m just thinking, just thinking about whether Caylee had been -- during her life, how many times she was knocked out with medicine to -- to just make her go to sleep so the tot mom wouldn`t have to deal with her.

What effect would that have on a child? Would it -- would there be any long-range effect, Dr. Perper?

PERPER: No. Well, it could be a sleeping medication, the child would just go to sleep. But this doesn`t explain why we found the tape on the mouth, which is -- put there.

GRACE: Oh no.

PERPER: Either to asphyxiate the child or to make him unable to -- cry.

GRACE: Definitely. Yes. I was not linking the two. I was referring back to allegations the tot mom had laughed and joked about putting Caylee to sleep with some type of medication, and what effect that may have on a child long-term.

I also understand, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, that there are reports the defense attorney is under investigation by the bar association?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Right. He is under some sort of investigation, it`s not clear. We had reports that there was some kind of pending entertainment deal that he was actually in trouble for. That doesn`t appear to be what it is.

Jose Baez held a press conference today. He said it was someone that`s out to get him, someone has an ax to grind with him. It`s not something that is involved in this case. But we haven`t been able to find out exactly what he did as far as this investigation.

GRACE: Oh, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Stop everything.

Petrimoulx, are you telling me that the defense attorney Jose Baez says there`s a conspiracy against him? People are out to get him?

PETRIMOULX: Well, he says that this sort of trouble, I guess, if you can call it, with the Florida bar that he`s in, the investigation that`s sparked against him is -- was launched by someone that has some kind of ax to grind against him. He didn`t really get into specifics of exactly what he means but those were the words that he used.

GRACE: And Kathi Belich, is it true that he`s also complaining he is being discriminated against because he`s Hispanic?

BELICH: That`s what he said today. He said that he is the first Hispanic here in central Florida to handle a case of such magnitude and that he believes that`s why he`s being targeted but he said he would not do anything foolish to let everyone down and the people who.

GRACE: That is crazy.

To the lawyers, Robin Saxton, Renee Rockwell, Paul Batista.

You know, Renee, when I first started trying cases, there were hardly any women in the courtroom. All right? I don`t want to date myself, but that was a long time ago. I never thought there was a conspiracy to get me because I was a woman, because I`m a minority in that sense, a protected class.

Where is he getting this from?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`m not sure and I`m not particularly impressed that.

GRACE: He should stop saying that right now.

ROCKWELL: No.

GRACE: I mean, has he ever heard of Johnny Cochran, one of the greatest defense lawyers of all time, who was African-American? Hello? Nobody cares. If you win, nobody cares.

ROCKWELL: No, and I don`t think.

GRACE: As long as you win, nobody cares about anything.

ROCKWELL: Right.

GRACE: So your advice to Mr. Baez?

ROCKWELL: Oh, regarding this?

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: Answer the bar complaint and keep working.

GRACE: What about it, Batista?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": You know, it`s silly to vilify Jose Baez. He`s just trying to do his job, Nancy, and so far he`s doing a pretty effective one. And as to the comment about discrimination, obviously, he shouldn`t say that, obviously, it`s irrelevant. But let`s not vilify him.

GRACE: I don`t think anybody.

BATISTA: Let`s focus on what he`s doing.

GRACE: . is vilifying him, Robin Sax. He`s the one that took his foot and stuck it in his mouth.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS & CHILD MOLESTERS": Well, Nancy, you`re absolutely right. Everyone who`s worked in criminal law, as some, they`ve been in the business long enough has had some sort of state bar investigation or inquiry just because of the nature of the beast.

However, there`s no one that I have heard of, at least in recent history, who`s used that as an opportunity to play the race card. I think that this is a ridiculous tactic that probably will come back to bite him in the butt.

GRACE: OK. You know what, you brought up a good point. The more people that complain about you, Robin Sax, usually means you`re probably doing a pretty good job, if you`re a criminal lawyer.

I mean, veteran criminal lawyers have stacks of complaints, and especially when somebody gets convicted, all they do is sit behind bars and think of what their trial lawyer and what the prosecutor did to get them and they file complaints.

Let`s take a listen to what Baez had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: I am the first Hispanic lawyer to have a case of this magnitude. And while this may not mean a lot to most of you here, it means a great deal to me. And I will not embarrass those that come after me by doing something as foolish and as unethical as what has been accused, or what I`ve been accused of.

So, as far as that`s concerned, I don`t know if you needed to hear it from my mouth, it is absolutely untrue, and it should be put to rest period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, you know, to Dr. Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist, I wouldn`t have even known about it if he hadn`t blabbed about it into a microphone. When did it all turn into, it`s about me?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know what, that`s what we`re seeing a lot in this case. I just think it`s funny that Casey ended up with an attorney who is the victim, too. Nobody is focusing on what should be focused on, which is this poor child and what`s happened with her.

GRACE: Everybody, we`re taking a quick break, but at your request, I want to show you my new photos of the twins. I`ll post them tonight. I hope you like them.

Here they are, just before they go to bed. We strolled them in a stroller. And there they are on grandmother`s piano down in Macon. Yes, when it`s cold outside, round and round we go in this wagon. And at music class. John David dancing.

Yes, we got a front row seat to the inauguration. Oh, John David playing the bongos at our Border`s Bookstore and at Monkey Joe`s riding the fire truck. Lucy gets into mommy`s jewelry after the show.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Our family`s broken, we want to have that fixed. We know what that means, to have our family broken apart like (INAUDIBLE) it is right now by tragedy. We don`t want this any longer be a tragedy. I don`t want to be one of those thousands of parents that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their -- their child again.

With the potential of knowing that their child`s alive and that they`re with someone else, the thought of that every day makes me sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also tonight, I`ve got in my hand the work time sheets of grandfather, George Anthony, that show he was not in the home, the computer searches were run that have become part of a murder investigation. Computer searches on neck breaking, on chloroform.

What do you say to that, Robin Sax?

SAX: Well, I think looking at that, looking at the -- timing and everything, can show that perhaps Casey had some sort of specific intent when she did those searches and wanted to make sure no one was around.

However, I`m not all that personally excited about that, because, frankly, she had many opportunities to be on computers. We know she was in and out of the house at different people`s homes. So maybe there`s a correlation, but I don`t know if it really -- does all that much for my case.

GRACE: You know, I disagree with you, Robin.

Renee Rockwell, Paul Batista, first to you, Renee, you could just discounted except for -- but for -- the fact that highly -- a highly saturated concentration level of chloroform was found in the tot mom`s car. So these are not just idle searches, these are searches, according to the prosecution, that resulted in the use of homemade chloroform, for some reason, in the trunk, where the body also was, Renee.

ROCKWELL: And, Nancy, you can`t in any where in your mind imagine another person making that search besides.

GRACE: Who? George and Cindy?

ROCKWELL: A boyfriend, a boyfriend, a brother, a cousin, a neighbor.

GRACE: Pause. Pause. Paul Batista, let`s explore that.

ROCKWELL: You asked the question.

GRACE: Yes, I did, and I deserved the answer I knew I was going to get from you.

Paul Batista, let`s examine that and break it down. Number one, work records show grandfather, George Anthony, not there. Work records show grandmother, Cindy Anthony, not there. Lee Anthony, brother, doesn`t live there. What`s he going to come over just to pop on and do a Google search?

Family -- other family ruled out. Neighbors, they`re going to come over just to use the computer? I don`t see it.

BATISTA: Well, Nancy, we don`t know anything about the number of people who had access to this home. We don`t know, you don`t know, and I don`t know that it was Casey Anthony.

GRACE: I -- take that down, please. I need to see Batista.

BATISTA: . who actually was using that computer at that moment.

GRACE: Yes. Who else could it be?

BATISTA: We don`t know the habits.

GRACE: Who`s laying around on the sofa all day not working. Huh?

BATISTA: We don`t know the habits in the house. That is not, in my opinion, very critical evidence.

GRACE: Well, yes, actually, we do. We have written documentation. Three -- four people live there. One is Caylee, one is tot mom, one is George, one is Cindy.

BATISTA: And we know all of them are excluded, Nancy.

GRACE: Everybody`s gone.

BATISTA: We know all of those are excluded.

GRACE: Except the tot mom.

BATISTA: We don`t know whether there are boyfriends in the house? We don`t know whether the neighbors had access to the house, cleaning people had access to the house, all of these things are legitimate questions for her defense to raise.

GRACE: To Stacy Ditrich, former detective and author, Stacy, I hope the defense says something like that at trial, because what effect do you think that will have on a jury, to suggest somebody snuck into the house or came into the house to run a Google search?

STACY DITRICH, FMR. DETECTIVE, AUTHOR OF "THE DEVIL`S CLOSET": I think they`re going to find it as ridiculous as we do. It`s ridiculous. And any prudent person in your home, you know who has access to your home and who does not. And to suggest that this was a stranger that came in and searched their computer when she`s the main suspect, when this child ends up dead, it`s ridiculous and I don`t think anybody will buy it.

GRACE: On the other hand, the defense is going to be between a rock and a hard spot and they`ve got to come up with arguments like Batista and Rockwell just made, or else they`ve just got to go ahead and admit. They`re not going to do that.

Back to Leonard Padilla, you`ve got an interesting theory about what the duct tape will reveal?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The duct tape at the -- and it`s a gentleman that teaches one of the colleges up in the northeast that was telling me that the duct tape will reveal traces of chloroform, oxygen, nitrogen, the gases that naturally breathe, if the tape was put on prior to death.

If it was put on post-mortem, chance are that they won`t show any of these. So it will be a very telling piece of evidence when they get down to it.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, is that possible? Can the -- can the duct tape have traces of the particles and the chemical compounds that are exhaled?

PERPER: Not in my opinion, because -- no, absolutely not because the oxygen or the carbon dioxide aren`t there anyway. Chloroform probably would evaporate and would be in small amount. I don`t believe that the tape is going to show anything.

GRACE: You know, I hope Padilla`s right, but I agree with you, Doctor. I just don`t think they`re going to find it, especially after Hurricane Fay has been through, all of this has been under water, which reminds me -- back to Kathi Belich with WFTV, items found in the bag included clothing, I believe, a pair of shorts.

Were the clothes still on the skeleton or were they thrown in with the skeleton?

BELICH: I don`t believe I saw anything specific in the documents that would show that. I just understand that they were in the bag along with the Winnie the Pooh blanket as well. I didn`t see anything specific that explained the relationship between all of these items that were in the bag.

GRACE: To Dr. Perper, if the child had been wearing the clothes, since we know the bones were scattered over many, many square feet, I assume the clothing would have been disassociated from the skeleton as well.

PERPER: Probably yes, but there would have been a chance of some bones to be found in the clothing, and again, the document didn`t specify that.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Eileen in Georgia. Hi, Eileen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. Thank you for calling -- taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First I`d like to tell you how much I admire and what an honor it is to speak with you, and my question is, I would like to ask -- we`re always referring to the duct tape over the mouth. Did it also cover the nasal passages from the airways to the nose, and is the death penalty still on the table?

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce, do we know whether the duct tape also covered the nose?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: We don`t have that information. The only time that the duct tape has been discussed is when they`re saying that it covered the mouth and had to be cut out because it was still connected to the hair.

GRACE: And to Eileen`s question regarding the death penalty, it was taken off the table but that was before the remains were found, Eileen. It`s entirely possible for the state to reverse that decision and go for the death penalty.

To Andrea in Florida, hi, dear. Oh it`s.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was calling to find out if the blanket that was found with the body matched what was in the house, and if they looked at the lot numbers on the bumper pads to see if they match?

GRACE: Oh, excellent question. We don`t know, but you`re absolutely right. Because all that bedding you see right there usually comes in one bag together.

Excellent question. I hope the police are listening tonight. When we get back, we`ll go to Renee in Wisconsin. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: You have to understand where I`m coming from in this, and obviously none of you are. By -- expecting a month, literally, out of the loop to have some sort of new insight on stuff? I mean, really?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Renee in Wisconsin, hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you so much for the adorable pictures of the twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I also have a daughter named Lucy and she will actually be 11 tomorrow.

GRACE: Happy birthday, little Lucy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, thank you. My question is, early in these jailhouse tapes, George and Cindy referenced several family friends and a few relatives that are helping with the search in support of -- Casey. Have any of these people come to visit her since she`s been incarcerated?

GRACE: Interesting question. Nikki Pierce, have any of them come to visit her?

PIERCE: She hasn`t had any visitors in a very long time, and that includes the family over the holidays. As far as we know, she has been completely without any visitors. The people that were referenced haven`t been heard from since.

GRACE: You know, we had a call the other night, went to break, I didn`t get to answer it. She asked whether the parents had been there since the body was found. The answer is no.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private Timothy Hutton, 21, Dylan, Montana, killed in Iraq. Joined the army to follow the footsteps of father and grandfather who served. Loved fishing, dreamed of building a cabin next to a fishing stream. Leaves behind parents Sonia and Albert, sister Christine, grandparents, Karen and Marty.

Timothy Hutton, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and a special thank you tonight to the Modesto Police Department for sending me a t-shirt from their K-9 unit.

And also tonight, a special good night from Georgia, friend of the show, Chris Brown.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 08:48:00 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Investigators Tie Caylee Trashbag to Anthony Home

Aired January 22, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a heart-shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash. Also used, a laundry bag. Can the bag be traced?
Tonight, major break in the case. Have police now made a direct link between something found at the crime scene and the Anthony household? Tonight, we can report that link, a link that may send tot mom Casey Anthony to the Florida electric chair. Evidence inside the police investigation reveals, after the discovery of Caylee`s skeleton, police go back to search the home, seizing garbage bags, duct tape, chloroform materials and toys. Detectives tonight take a second look at items found in the tot mom`s car, including a knife and diapers.

And tonight, we confirm the Florida bar is investigating tot mom`s lead defense attorney. Believe it or not, there`s more jailhouse video of a tense confrontation between Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy, this as tot mom Casey Anthony orders up beauty products, treats, expensive bottled water, chocolates, notepads for her private jail cell. For what? To work on a TV movie deal?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I spent the day almost completely by myself, just completely and utterly miserable!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right after little Caylee`s remains were found in the woods on December 11th, detectives searched the Anthony home for any evidence that would link back to the crime scene. Now Local 6 has learned more about one of those links. Investigators took plastic bags from the Anthony home, which we now know look visually the same. It`s the black plastic bag with yellow handles which once held the toddler`s body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also revealed in the documents are text messages to tot mom Casey Anthony from friends, text messages showing everyone in the tot mom`s inner circle were completely unaware Caylee was missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked her, Well, where`s Caylee? Who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Questions remains about the significance of some of the items found with the remains, including a heart-shaped sticker that was intentionally put on the duct tape used around the child`s mouth area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And Tonight, the mystery surrounding the sudden disappearance of a Missouri mom of three reportedly seen New Year`s Day. Where is girl- next-door mom of three Renee Pernice?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Missing mother of three Renee Pernice hasn`t been seen since early January, and her family is desperate to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It take something each morning to get up and get going.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renee`s family became concerned after a couple of days without hearing from her and called her house. Renee`s husband answered and said Renee had been gone for some time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives and crime scene investigators carefully, cautiously, collect evidence inside the Pernice home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police found preliminary evidence of blood in several rooms, on an axehead and under a steam vacuum cleaner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renee`s family says her children are her life and she would never leave them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve cried every day. I really have. I can`t think of anything else but her and how she`s doing or where she is or anything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friends and neighbors cope with a great sadness and the burning question, Where is this mother now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Bombshell. Details emerge. Have police made a direct link between the crime scene where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household? Will that link send tot mom Casey Anthony to the Florida electric chair?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trash bag in which Caylee`s body was placed is also identical in appearance to a bag the child`s grandmother, Cindy Anthony, gave detectives in July. While Local 6 has learned investigators are confident they have several links to the home, it will take laboratory tests to conclusively link the bag to the bag found at the crime scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County authorities went back to take a second look at some of the evidence they already collected, including a knife. But why? The knife, along with diapers, a backpack and other items, were taken from tot mom Casey Anthony`s car when it was seized by police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators also searched the Anthonys` garage and other areas of the home, looking for duct tape, to see if any matched the silver tape that had been wrapped around Caylee`s head, covering her mouth. On that duct tape, the FBI crime lab discovered residue in the perfect shape of a heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The newly-released documents also contain text messages to tot mom Casey Anthony sent by friends, who were shocked to learn Caylee had been missing, with some friends even asking if it was a misprint.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny. Or we would ask her about it and we would just move on because it seemed normal that she was with the nanny. She wasn`t at our place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Have police made a direct link between something found there at the crime scene where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household?

Out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, what can you tell us?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, I`m learning more specifics about those links. We`ve been talking about this plastic garbage bag. It`s black. It has yellow handles. The child`s body was in that bag out by the crime scene. Now I`m learning that investigators were able to seize similar bags that look -- they look exactly -- they look identical to that bag that Caylee`s body was found in. They found those bags at the Anthony home.

Now, the bag is also identical visually to a bag that Cindy Anthony turned over to investigators back in July. So what it`s doing is really linking that bag out at the crime scene to bags that the Anthony family had inside their home.

So you know, these ties, the evidence just keeps mounting and mounting here. And we`ve been wondering about what are those links? What have they found out at that crime scene that can directly tie to the Anthony family home? Now I have a few more answers here. But of course, these are visually identical. So now what investigators are going to have to do is take these bags to the lab and prove forensically that they are similar bags.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, to say that two trash bags look alike -- it sounds very generic, but if you go to your local grocery store and you compare trash bags, they are all different sizes, colors, weights, thicknesses. The black ones have a black tie. Some have a red tie. Some have, like these, a yellow tie. What can we learn? It`s actually extremely specific.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It is, Nancy. And that bag that she turned over in July is going to play a big role in this. What they can go -- when they can do is microscopically compare the perforations, the number, the way it was torn, and then go back and compare that to the bag that they took in the second search warrant after they found her to see if they do match up. And they should be able to do this at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement lab.

GRACE: Mike, that`s not all. A careful analysis of the trash bags can show the actual components in the plastic.

BROOKS: Oh, sure.

GRACE: And what I`m telling you is you can chemically prove that, for instance, a Hefty bag is different from a Piggly Wiggly or a Kroger or a Publix trash bag. There is a chemical -- there is a -- a difference in the components in the trash bag -- how much dye is used, how much plastic is used, how much air is pumped into the plastic. That is why some plastic is more durable or hefty -- heftier than other trash bags, how much air is pumped in there.

So they can tell, Mike Brooks, right down to the lot, the batch, where they came from, what date they were manufactured. You can tell so much by a chemical analysis.

BROOKS: It is, but if the bag -- but the thing it`s going to come down to are the number of perforations because as they go through the process and the bags are perforated in the factory, they`re going to be able to tell whether it was a Hefty or any other kind of bag. But those perforations, they`re going to match up. And if they`re the same chemical make-up, then it comes right down, Nancy, to those perforations because you can have a couple different bags, let`s say, of a Hefty type with yellow handles, but it`s going to come down to matching up those perforations.

GRACE: Out to the lines. We`re taking your calls live. To Susan in Tennessee. Hi, Susan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the Anthonys have been on TV for so long, can you tell me, do they not have any relatives? Nobody seems to come forth to be a support system for them. And also, where is Lee now?

GRACE: Interesting question. To Nikki Pierce. She`s right, we have not seen relatives gathering around the Anthonys. In fact, some of the relatives -- I believe an uncle of tot mom Casey Anthony has spoken out against her, saying she`s guilty.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s absolutely right, Nancy. You have an e- mail exchange between Cindy and her brother, where her brother is basically saying, She`s guilty, and you`re crazy to support her. So no, you`re not seeing the family gather around.

Furthermore, it`s been -- Casey has been facing some financial arrests, not particularly for this, but there have been some allegations that she stole money from her grandfather and her grandmother. So it`s not looking like there`s a close family tie there, Nancy.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, on the story from the beginning. Natisha, where is Lee Anthony, the brother?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Lee Anthony has been staying at the Anthony home with George and Cindy since Casey was arrested -- since the remains were found, actually. And prior to that time, Nancy, Lee had kind of fallen into the background. We haven`t seen much of him, haven`t heard much of him. But now he is staying back at the home with George and Cindy. But still, we have not heard very much from him.

GRACE: To bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, who actually has searched for little Caylee. Leonard, what do you make of this link, which looks to be a direct link between the trash bag at the home and the trash bag used - - excuse me, the trash bag containing the skeleton of little Caylee and the bags used at the home?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s pretty direct. And I`ll tell you something else that kind of surprised me. When we were there, the garbage bags had red ties. However, we understood that the ties were yellow prior to us being there and the bag that they found had a yellow tie. And also, if you look at the washer and dryers in the television films that were taken, before we were there, they were one color, and after we arrived, it seemed as though they were different.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s disturbing new evidence in Florida in the case of toddler Caylee Anthony. Documents released by the state`s attorney`s office in Orlando show Caylee`s mouth was covered with silver duct tape that had a heart-shaped sticker on it.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: It`s just obscene, everything that`s going on out there.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, it`s obscene, the stuff that people are saying. But you know, again, they`re ignorant, and we have to look at it like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... detective says it looked like the sticker was put there on purpose. Investigators also found a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket. Documents also show Caylee`s remains were put in a laundry hamper and in a secured plastic garbage bag.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know the most negative stuff that`s being said, and it`s sickening. It`s disgusting. And people really need to get a life. And if they have nothing positive to say, they need to shut up.

CINDY ANTHONY: They`re finally trying to be nice to us again, so

CASEY ANTHONY: Good. They need to be nice to you because if they`re not, don`t talk to them.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m serious.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: I mean, I want their help as much as we can get it, but they need to help us, too.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: It needs to go both ways. It can`t be one-sided.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll try to help them in whatever way that I can, but if they come in here attacking me, they`re not getting (DELETED). I`m sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, when you look at the faces of George and Cindy Anthony, they just look so exhausted and so beat down, trying to wrangle information out of their daughter. Maybe that`s why they haven`t visited her in some time now, certainly not since the body was found. I believe the last time they were there was around August the 14th.

Out to the lines. Margaret in New Jersey. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is, as a grandmother -- my grandson`s under 2, and he goes on day care. And I ask him when I see him, How was school? Did the grandparents ever ask Caylee any questions about being at the baby-sitter`s, or you know, Zanny, How was Zanny`s today? They never seem to mention anything about -- did they ever have that conversation with her?

GRACE: You know, Natisha Lance, we have pored through all of the police investigation tapes. We`ve gone over them with a fine-toothed comb. Never do we hear them mention anything about a nanny or day care.

LANCE: Actually, George did mention it in one of those interviews, and what he said is that he would ask Caylee, How was Zanny, How was this, How was that, and there was never any recognition from Caylee. There was never a glint in her eye that gave recognition...

GRACE: You`re right.

LANCE: ... about Zanny.

GRACE: I remember that. I remember that. So tell me, Natisha, refresh my recollection, when was the grandfather, George Anthony, asking about the nanny? What prevents him to ask about the nanny?

LANCE: He would ask her pretty much on a regular basis, Nancy, when she would come home and he would say, How was your day with Zanny? How was playing with Zach (ph)? Because once again, if you recall, Casey had said that Jeffrey Hopkins`s little boy`s name was Zachary. And on both of those names, Zanny and Zachary, Caylee never showed any type of recognition. But if you`d ask her about somebody else, right away, she would start naming off names or naming off different things that she had done with certain people, but never with Zenaida and never with Zach.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Dr. Bethany, children know. Right now, the twins -- you know, they`re only 14 months -- they can`t verbalize anything, but it`s very clear from their expression that they know what we`re saying to them. They can identify people when they see somebody they know, even at a distance, Bethany. It`s incredible. Even at a distance, they light up when they see somebody they know. They point to them or reach to them. This child clearly had no recognition of who they were talking about when the grandfather asked about the nanny.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: It`s so true. And when you see the tapes of little Caylee sitting in the highchair singing, "You never know, dear, how much I love you, please don`t take my sunshine away," this was a very expressive little girl. So I`m sure that it was very apparent to George and Cindy that she did not know who Zanny the nanny was.

Although George and Cindy, I believe, were wonderful grandparents, there were a great many things they did not want to know. And therein lies the problem. For instance, Cindy complained to a co-worker that the car smelled bad, and when the co-worker said, Well, did you look in the trunk, she said nothing. So Cindy noticed things, but then she disavowed what it was she was noticing, and that probably happened when they questioned this little girl.

GRACE: You are seeing brand-new photos that we have obtained of little Caylee. This was when she was a newborn there in happier times.

Also tonight, we have learned and are finding out more about complaints that the grandmother made to co-workers. What about it, Nikki Pierce?

PIERCE: Well, she said -- the co-worker said that she really hadn`t said much about her family life at all until Casey started leaving Caylee with her an awful lot and not being around. And then after this vacation that they all took together, the three of them, to bond, all of a sudden, Casey disappeared with Caylee. And then she started to complain about that, saying...

GRACE: So they actually took the vacation? They actually went on the vacation? I know they were planning one, but I didn`t know the vacation actually materialized.

PIERCE: Well, was there a time when they tried to spend some time together in the beginning of June, and then there was another time where there was an actual vacation in the beginning of July. And right around that time, of course, was the time that Casey (SIC) disappeared. And Cindy started complaining, saying, Well, I`m not getting to see Caylee. It doesn`t seem right. But then she never really followed up on those things.

And then, of course, when the car was found, when they got the note from Johnson`s wrecker saying that the car had been towed, she told everyone there what was going on, and they sent her home. And then she came back, and they sent her home again. It was a very difficult time for her. So she was telling some people...

GRACE: And also complaining about the expense, since the tot mom was doing nothing but lounging on the sofa while the grandparents covered all the bills.

Out to the lines. Lori in Florida. Hi, Lori.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- I`m also a grandmother myself, and I can`t picture me, if I was in a situation, asking for immunity when it came to my granddaughter. Why are they asking for immunity? And also, do you think that they will receive the immunity?

GRACE: Great question. Leonard Padilla, do you think that they know enough that the state will give them immunity?

PADILLA: You know, it`s -- there`s times when I think they will just to get this over with. Yes, they know enough. They know when the child left the house. Cindy herself...

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: ... has said things that are incriminating, and that`s why they need the immunity.

GRACE: Well, here`s my question. Susan Ross, Peter Odom, Richard Herman, does the state need her? Does the state actually need Cindy and George Anthony? Why grant them immunity, if they don`t need them, Susan Moss.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I don`t think they need them at all. They may do it just to get this over as quickly as possible. But you`ve got a body. You`ve duct tape. You`ve got plastic bags, which I believe they`re going to be able to trace to that Anthony home. This is going to be a slam dunk. It`s very easy to connect the dots in this case.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they do not need them. But they`d be foolish to give them immunity, Nancy, because these people could get on the stand and take partial responsibility for this and scuttle the state`s case against the daughter.

GRACE: OK. Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Great point. The defense case is going to be won by the forensics, Nancy. That`s where the thrust of this case is going to be.

GRACE: So yes, no...

HERMAN: Dr. Kobilinsky and Henry Lee...

GRACE: ... do they need immunity?

HERMAN: The immunity -- they`re not going to give the parents immunity. They don`t need them.

GRACE: Agree.

To tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for answers in the death of a young California man, 23-year-old Dane Williams vanishing at a skate and surf trade show January 2008, San Diego. Take a look. Three days later, Williams`s body found wrapped in a blanket in an alleyway. Look at this young man. No signs of trauma, no suspects. Please, if you have information about this young man, his life before him, call San Diego police, 619-531-2000. Please help us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: You`re the boss, you know? You do what you need to do to get all this stuff going in that direction, OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: As far as that`s concerned, that one thing, yes, I pretty much am. But with everything else, no, I`m being told what to do, when to do it, and everything else, Dad. No. You don`t understand. I may have been the boss walking in here, but the rules have surely changed. Everything`s out of my control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You don`t have any control? What about little Caylee at the time she was murdered?

Now, have police made a direct link between items found at the scene where her skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household?

To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, joining us out of Florida. Dr. Bell, this accentuates, it highlights why it is so important how the body and the things found in, on or around the body are handled at the medical examiner`s.

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Absolutely, Nancy. Everything that`s found there with the body or near the body is extremely important in the investigation and adjudication of this case.

GRACE: Because it`s the medical examiner who has handled the duct tape, found the heart-shaped sticker indentation, the works.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, babe.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk then.

CINDY ANTHONY: All right.

CASEY ANTHONY: . give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK, sweetheart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m sure she sees herself as the victim, but that`s the same denial she`s been in from the very beginning.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me, but myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s completely consistent with sociopathic personality pattern.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I know what (INAUDIBLE). You guys understand why I`m honestly a bigot and keeping me here you`re not helping me help myself.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just sorry to say that. Huh?

CINDY ANTHONY: We don`t have the means to get you out anyway, sweetheart. We don`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: I understand that, but the opportunity was there and it wasn`t taken advantage of and.

CINDY ANTHONY: We didn`t have an opportunity. I don`t know where you`re hearing that.

CASEY ANTHONY: Just give dad the phone, please. I`m sorry. I don`t want to get frustrated. Just give dad the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She really believes she`s the victim.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the beginning, what can you tell me about this heart-shaped marking on a photo that was placed online, date June 3, just before little Caylee was murdered?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, what we`re hearing now, Nancy, is that the duct tape that was around Caylee`s remains when they were found, it was taped so thoroughly and so thickly that it was in her hair and they had to cut it out.

Now what they also found was residue, adhesive residue on the duct tape that was in the shape of a heart. Now investigators went back to the scene later on, they were able to find a sticker that looked like the same shape that was on this tape.

Now what you`re seeing right now and what you help up is something that was found on the Internet with this heart that could possibly be the same shape and heart of this sticker that was found on the duct tape around her mouth.

GRACE: What about prescription items taken out of the Anthony home, Natisha?

LANCE: Well, one of the things that investigators were allegedly looking for when they went back to the home, Nancy, was to be able to look at prescription drugs that were in the home.

Now this could possibly be linked to, you know, Xanax, perhaps they were looking for -- otherwise they could have possibly been looking for those household items that were used to make chloroform in addition to that.

GRACE: I want to go back out to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Peter Odom, Richard Herman. We now understand the defense is trying to get out of town. They`re trying to get change of venue.

Let`s take a look at a map, Elizabeth, about what the possibilities are.

Susan Moss, it`s not like the defense can just hand pick or cherry pick where they want to have the case tried. That`s not the way it works.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely not the way it works and it doesn`t really matter because everyone in Florida knows about this case. Everyone is up. I mean what`s their defense going to be in if the nanny is legit you have to acquit?

This defense is going down and it`s going down fast. If they were smart they would go into that prosecutor`s office and try to do the best deal they possibly could.

GRACE: Richard Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they`re going to get out of local news coverage jurisdiction of Orlando. That`s where they`re going to go. They can`t cherry pick, but they`ve got to get away from the local news garbage which has destroyed a fair jury in that jurisdiction.

GRACE: You know, Richard, I just told you they can`t cherry pick and you say back to me they can`t cherry pick.

Peter, explain how the process works.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The judge is going to have to find a place where there is not such pervasive coverage, a place where they can get a fair jury and more importantly, it also has to be a place that is racially similar, demographically similar to the jurisdiction which the crime occurred.

GRACE: And back to Richard, right now, no one has made any issue regarding the racial makeup of a potential jury. They`re focusing more on heavy press coverage.

Do you really believe there`s anywhere in Florida where it`s not prevalent?

HERMAN: No, Nancy, but this is an extremely difficult case to defend and again, it`s -- going to be the forensic expert, if there`s any chance of the defense experts winning this case, it`s going to be the defense experts, Dr. Kobilinsky, Henry Lee and the rest of the forensics, to come in and disprove the prosecution`s experts.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- Mike, what do you make with the police going backhand and re-testing items taken out of the car?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, I think that`s very important. You go back, make sure you crossed all your T`s and dotted all your I`s.

You know, and Nancy, some other, some other really good -- I mean really good evidence in this case, they went on August 6th back to the Anthony home, served another search warrant, went in her closet, took out a number of pieces of clothing.

They even used an alternate light source there in her room and they found some suspected stains on some of her clothing. They sent that to the lab to see what`s going on with that. We don`t know the results of that.

GRACE: Back to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." The heart-shaped sticker on the duct tape, it`s sick. Also the Winnie the Pooh blanket, I was just telling last night how Lucy dropped her binky and I went running about eight blocks twice, back and forth, back and forth, trying to find the binky, never found it.

This child was buried with her favorite blanket. It`s clearly out of the home. There you see the Winnie the Pooh motif in her nursery.

What killer would do that, Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think it`s important to understand that people with severe personality disorders fluctuate from love to hate to love to hate. So she could have adored the little girl like we see in the pictures, then killed her, and then loved her by wrapping her in the Winnie the Pooh blanket.

I think, more importantly, she treated her own child like a trophy, like serial killers treat their victims. She took something important to the little girl, her little stickies and she used it as an instrument of hate. It shows tremendous sadism that there was excitement and satisfaction at shutting the little girl up and then saying I heart you, then sending her to her death.

And also she treated her child like a sticker book. She treated her like a piece of garbage and put her in a garbage can and this is the profile of the sociopath where the affect is so shallow they don`t form attachments or grasp the severity of what they`re doing. They grasp it enough to cover their tracks, but not to stop themselves.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Jessica in New York, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m so glad to finally get to speak to you.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to know, has the meter reader ever been fully investigated to see if there`s any link back to the family or anyone involved with the case and can he be forced to take a lie detector test?

GRACE: He cannot be forced to take a lie detector. If he did take one it probably wouldn`t come into evidence. And yes, he has been investigated up and down, every which way, but loose, all around because it was very unusual the way he discovered the body, but so far, our sources say his story has checked out.

Out to the lines, Sue in Ohio, hi, Sue. Uh-oh, Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Zanny in the apartments.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . really questions me. If one report that I had watched, it said that Casey had some friends that were staying in the apartments. So if Zanny had applied to rent out an apartment there, how would Casey find that name other than her friends telling her or somebody telling her about Zanny, a name Zanny, and maybe she took information from that.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing photos that we have just obtained, new photos of little Caylee as an infant. She`s just absolutely beautiful.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who helped look for Caylee, what about Sawgrass Apartments? What`s the link?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: On the 17th, Zenaida was over there looking for an apartment because she was in the process of divorcing her husband. The same day Casey, driving her boyfriend`s jeep went over there to visit Dante and still thinking that her friend Annie Douling(ph) was living there, but as Zenaida was living, the manager of the apartments came running out and said Mrs. Gonzalez, Zenaida Gonzalez, you forgot to sign your application.

There were also some other friends that Casey had in those apartments named Samantha, Raquel and a couple of other names that have come up as far as when the children of Zenaida were mentioned, another things, she kind of wove those into the whole scheme of things.

GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to a California friend of the show, Scotty. He is ventilator-dependent, he is a quadriplegic. Scotty has incredible strength. He is an inspiration to those that know him. He never misses a show.

To our dear friend in California, stay strong and happy birthday, dear Scotty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news in the case of Caylee Anthony. WKMG has learned that investigators took plastic bags from the Anthony home that look visually the same as the trash bags which once held Caylee`s remains. The station also claims that the trash bag that contained Caylee`s skull and bones is also identical in appearance to a bag grandmother Cindy Anthony gave authorities back in July.

WKMG reports that investigators are confident they have several connections to the home. Lab tests are expected to be done to try and confirm the connection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, what can you tell me? What are the developments? I understand the Florida bar confirms there is an investigation going on against lead defense attorney.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That`s right. Jose Baez spoke to the media yesterday and he actually said that he knew that the Florida bar was investigating him or that there had been complaints to the Florida bar.

And so I spoke to someone with the Florida bar today and they did say, you know, some of them may not have merit. There`s a whole system that they have to go through, but the long and short of it is that there is at least one complaint that they are investigating and it has something to do with the press corps media with Jose Baez`s relationship to his PR firm although they wouldn`t say anything else about exactly what.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sue, Ohio. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call and God bless you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I`d like to know is like, at one point in time in, I don`t know, through e-mails or what it was, but she mentioned borrowing duct tape off of one of her friends. I was wondering if they investigated that to find out if that`s the duct tape that she used.

GRACE: What about it, Natisha?

LANCE: This was Amy Huizenga, Nancy, who she had borrowed the duct tape from.

GRACE: Right.

LANCE: And that was that -- anything but clothes party where Casey was wearing the American flag and police -- that is something that police did look into.

GRACE: Christy, Missouri, hi, Christy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: H. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it that the defense forensic experts would be looking for that`s different than the state`s prosecution?

GRACE: Interesting.

To Jessica D`Onofrio, what do we believe they are looking for that`s different from what the state`s looking for?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, they`re going to look at everything, Nancy. I mean, really, what this is all going to come down to is a battle of the experts. Investigators say that they have a strong forensic case here. You`re talking about, do we really need Cindy or George Anthony and a lot of the answers are no.

This really is going to come down to a battle of the forensic experts -- timeframe of death, duct tape being linked from the scene to the house, these black plastic bags now, cadaver dogs and the list just goes on and on and on.

GRACE: Right.

D`ONOFRIO: So the defense is really going to have to blow that forensic case apart.

GRACE: Everybody, I want to switch gears quickly and tell you about a missing woman. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After police were notified authorities executed a search warrant on the home a few days later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Papers detail the search of the Shon Pernice`s home. Officers knew they`d find guns, Shon told them that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police removed carpet samples, blood stains and other evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: However, the regional crime lab will have to confirm or refute all of those field tests.

Shon told Renee`s family that he`d last seen her on February 1st, a day later, the filing say, he told police that he`d last seen her January 2nd.

In additional detail in the search of the home the court papers confirmed that a divorce was pending for Shon and Renee. The detectives finding legal documents to that effect at Renee`s place of work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police continue to search the nearby areas and wood, hoping to find clues that could lead them to the missing mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Martin Augustine with KMBC joining us out of Kansas City. What is the latest?

MARTIN AUGUSTINE, REPORTER, KMBC, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, the latest is that court documents are now on file that detail a three-day search of the home of Renee Pernice and her husband Shon and those documents catalog what police found that in that information police did find what appears to be, at least at -- initially, bits of human blood in several rooms and on top of an ax ahead and under a steam vacuum cleaner.

Now, keep in mind, though, all of that information has to be confirmed or refuted by a regional crime lab, but it was just enough information that it did get the attention of Kansas City police.

Also in those court documents, not just what police found, but also why they wanted to search the home. A couple of instances there. Shon Pernice is Renee Pernice`s husband and shortly after Renee disappeared, police detectives saw him drive away from the home to a nearby park and in that park he released Renee Pernice`s pet dog, turned around and left.

In the court documents, detectives say that indicated to them that he had knowledge that she would not be returning. And one other interesting bit of information that caught our eye, the fact that Shon Pernice showed up at an Independence fire station.

Now Independence is a city just right next door to Kansas City and Shon Pernice is an Independent firefighter, so the fact that he would be in a firehouse is not unusual. But that was not the one he`s assigned to. He was also there in the early morning hours and that particular fire station is.

GRACE: Around 4:30 a.m.

AUGUSTINE: Yes, 4:30 a.m. And that particular fire station is where Independence keeps its hazardous materials unit. So the court papers go on to say that Pernice would have had access to cleaning solvents and cleaners and police took careful note of that in those documents, Nancy.

GRACE: Joining me right now, a special guest, Renee Pernice`s father, Rick Pretz.

Sir, thank you for being with us. Did the husband, who, let me stress, is not a formal suspect -- Mr. Pretz, did he actually take his wife`s dog to the park and let it go to abandon it?

RICK PRETZ, FATHER OF MISSING MOM, RENEE PERNICE: Well, I would not have been present to see that, but that is definitely what`s in the police report.

GRACE: What did the husband tell you about when he last saw her?

PRETZ: Shon states that he last saw Renee the morning of January 2nd.

GRACE: And what did he tell others?

PRETZ: I`m sorry. I`ve not been able to talk on Shon, so I`m not sure what Shon has told others. And he`s not talking to the family either, so I can`t speak to that.

GRACE: Mr. Pretz, if you could reach out to her right now, what would you say?

PRETZ: Renee, we love you very much. If there`s the slight chance that you needed to go away for a while, please call us. There`s nothing we can`t fix. We want you back.

GRACE: Is it like your daughter to have disappeared for this long? Has she ever gone missing before?

PRETZ: She`s never gone missing. It is not her nature, and as a parent, you know, that is the one spark that we can look at that maybe she went away, but realistically the family knows that`s not Renee that it`s just very, very little chance that that`s what`s happened.

It would be foul play that is keeping Renee away from us.

GRACE: Another special guest with us, Captain Rich Lockhart with the Kansas City Police Department.

Captain, thank you for being with us. I know that he told the family he saw her on January 2. What did he tell police?

CAPT. RICH LOCKHART, KANSAS CITY P.D. ON THE CASE: He told us that he saw her on the 2nd as well. There was an interview with another family member that said that he saw her on the 1st, which was some conflicting information from what he told us.

GRACE: So he was not sure about the last date he saw his wife?

LOCKHART: Right. He told a family member the 1st, somewhere in the early morning hours, then told us the 2nd between 9:00 and noon.

GRACE: Back to Renee`s father, Rick Pretz. Mr. Pretz, when did the children last see her?

PRETZ: Well, Shon has not allowed us to see the children, so I would be speculating on that, also.

GRACE: Captain Lockhart, what can you tell us?

LOCKHART: You know, right now, we`ve got a lot of evidence. We`re going over things we recovered from the home. We are actively investigating this, and we have a relentless drive to try and figure out what happened to Renee.

GRACE: Captain Lockhart is right. Horse Mountain Police, ATVs, canine units, helicopters, hundreds of volunteer searches. 816-474-8477 is the tip line number.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . embraces friends and strangers her father Rich Pretz draws strength. And from him, these people who also want Renee back draw strength to, both for him and each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Martin Augustine wit KMBC, Kansas City.

Martin, in a nutshell, again, where was blood discovered that you know of?

AUGUSTINE: There were -- according to the court documents and the bits of what police say initial test show maybe human blood were found in some of the rooms in the home. But also.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. What`s that video of all those guns being taken out of the home?

AUGUSTINE: Well, you have to keep in mind there.

GRACE: Holy molly.

AUGUSTINE: . that Shon Pernice is a member of the National Guard. The fact that there were guns in the house was not a surprise to police because he had told them they were there. Near as we can tell, the main focus of what police are looking at was just the stacks and stacks of documents that were released that were -- of all the swabs that crime scene technicians were taking around the house, looking for evidence of blood and other things around the house.

GRACE: And Mr. Pretz, is it true that they have sat their children down already and told them they may split up?

PRETZ: You know, again, I -- really wasn`t in the home. I can only speak to the fact that Renee was talking to her family and had expressed that. Now the exact timing that they were going to sit down with the children is unknown to the family.

GRACE: Captain, what do you know?

LOCKHART: Well, according to what the investigators were able to found out, they actually had a talk with the kids the Sunday before.

GRACE: Right.

LOCKHART: . Renee went missing. And he was supposed to go on a three-week drill, and when he got back, they were told that he would not be living in the house. Once he got back from drill.

GRACE: Thank you, Captain Lockhart, joining us from Kansas city.

Tip line, everyone, crucial, 816-474-8477.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Gary Henry, 34, Indianapolis, Indiana, killed Iraq. A military policeman, a paramedic, awarded Purple Heart, Bronze Star, a fire captain back home.

Once awarded a Medal of Honor. Leaves behind dad Gary, widow Gina, three children, best friend John.

Gary Henry, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us, and tonight a special good night from Georgia friends of the show visiting our New York studios, they`re here for their birthdays, Derrick and Jennifer Fluker.

Aren`t they a handsome couple?

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2009, 07:41:19 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony`s Father Hospitalized After Suicide Threat

Aired January 23, 2009 - null   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a child`s heart- shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double bagged like she`s trash.

Bombshell. Tonight grandfather George Anthony at a breaking point, the grandfather of the slain Florida toddler taken into custody and hospitalized in the early morning hours, grandfather George reported missing overnight, sending repeated text messages he no longer wants to live and wants to go to Caylee, his location in a Daytona Beach motel tracked by cell phone pings. In George Anthony`s car, a five-page suicide note reiterating he wants to end his life and be with little Caylee. As we go to air, George Anthony under watch at a psychiatric unit. Tonight, the 911 calls alerting grandfather George Anthony`s plan to take his own life.

Tonight, also, will yet another piece of evidence send tot mom Casey Anthony to Florida`s death row? Is duct tape binding little Caylee`s mouth the same duct tape found on gas cans from the Anthony home? That analysis being made right now. This after we learn a trash bag holding little Caylee`s remains is a direct link to trash bags at the Anthony home.

And in the last hours, a Florida judge signs an order forcing tot mom Casey Anthony out of her private jail cell and into the courtrooms. Just days ago, she refused to leave her cell and was dragged to court by bailiffs.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?

BRAD CONWAY, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: George Anthony has been gone since 8:30 this morning, and he has taken several bottles of medication from his house, as well as some pictures. And what worries us is that something is -- he`s done something to himself.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. George Anthony, the grandfather of little Caylee, was reported missing last night by wife Cindy Anthony and sent text messages to family telling them he wanted to end his life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At around midnight, we received a call that a George Anthony was in the Daytona Beach area, that he was despondent, contemplating suicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a five-page letter was found in his car indicating he wanted to do harm to himself.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: You people have no idea we`re going through. You guys don`t give a -- you don`t care about me! You don`t care about her! You don`t care about my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George was taken to a local hospital and is undergoing a psychiatric evaluation. Meanwhile, WKMG has learned that duct tape found on a gas can seized from the Anthony home is being compared to the duct tape found on Caylee. The station reports that the tape on the gas can appears to be identical to the duct tape found on Caylee`s skull.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, bombshell. Grandfather George Anthony rushed to a hospital psych ward after threatening suicide, as new evidence emerges that could send tot mom Casey Anthony to Florida`s death row.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments today in the case of 2-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Grandfather George Anthony was reported missing late last night and found in a motel miles away with a note in his car indicating he wanted to harm himself.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: OK, you said he had a couple of bottles of medication?

CONWAY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Are any weapons missing?

CONWAY: No.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m doing everything I can, everything I can to help you and help her. I wish there was more I could do. I would give my life right now for you and for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George was taken to the Halifax Medical Center, where he will undergo a psychiatric evaluation. The jail says the tot mom was notified about the incident this morning. Also today, WKMG has learned that duct tape found on gas cans belonging to the Anthonys is being compared to the duct tape found on the mouth area of the skull of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take a look at this gas can in the garage the Anthony home. Now take a closer look. It appears to have silver duct tape on it. Back on August 1st, investigators seized a two-and-a-quarter-gallon metal gas from the home. Caylee`s grandfather, George, said Casey had his gas cans in her trunk in mid-June after he reported them stolen. Now Local 6 has learned that duct tape on the gas can is being compared to the tape found over the little`s girl`s mouth because that duct tape appears to be identical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want to go in the trunk of the car. And I just get back where the passenger real tail light is to her car, she throws open the truck, she says, Here`s your F-ing cans.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood 1, standing by at the courthouse. Rory, what happened? How is George Anthony?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO: Well, good evening, Nancy. You know, George`s lawyer, Brad Conway, says this was a tragedy averted. He had called the Orange County sheriff`s office, the detective who`s been investigating the Caylee murder, and asked him for his help, saying, Look, George has been gone for the day. We don`t know where he is. We don`t want to wait the 24-hour normal period for a missing persons report. Can you help us out? That`s when the detective said, Call 911. Make the missing persons report, and we`ll get right on it.

And that`s when the sheriff in Orange County worked with sheriffs in Volusia County and the Daytona Beach police and used that cell phone technology to find the motel room where George Anthony was staying.

GRACE: You know, Rory O`Neill, that whole "Got to wait 24 hours" when somebody`s reported missing is archaic. It is ridiculous. It needs to be taken off the law books. Tell me, lay it out for me -- if they had waited 24 hours, George Anthony could be dead right now. Thank God, they didn`t. Lay it out for me what happened hour by hour.

O`NEILL: Well, this is what George -- George`s lawyer, Brad Conway, was saying, they did not want to wait that long. They knew that there were bottles of medication from the home that were gone. There were photos of George with his family members that were also gone. They got these suspicious text messages where they had feared for George`s safety, and they needed the police to act immediately. And that`s why Conway says if they didn`t start the search when they did, George may have done something worse to himself.

GRACE: Well, law enforcement acting wisely, possibly saving the life of tot mom`s father, George Anthony.

And joining me right now is a special guest, Chief Mike Chitwood with the Daytona Beach police. He drove Mr. Anthony to the hospital, possibly saving his life. Chief, thank you for being with us.

CHIEF MIKE CHITWOOD, DAYTONA BEACH POLICE: Good evening, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Well, I`m distressed. Having been a crime victim myself, hearing what Mr. Anthony is going through is heart-wrenching for me. I understand that he repeatedly said in various text messages and in a letter found in his vehicle he wanted to go be with Caylee. What happened, Chief Chitwood?

CHITWOOD: That`s correct. Shortly before 1:00 AM this morning, we received a request from Orange County sheriff`s office to go to Bethune (ph) Point, which is a park, a recreational park that sits on the Intercoastal Waterway, and asked us to look for George Casey. (SIC) They gave us a description -- George Anthony -- I`m sorry. They told us to look for his vehicle, the tag number. They told us that he was suicidal, that he may be armed with a gun and he may have drugs in his possession and that the last cell phone pings came from this park area.

So we searched the park methodically. We requested the air tac (ph) unit of the sheriff -- Volusia County sheriff`s department to come up and help us come up with their infrared, and we were unable to locate anything. About that time, Orange County showed up, and we were able to track on the computer and we determined that there could be a two-and-a-half-mile radius of this cell phone tower that was pinged. So we started to search the U.S. 1 or Ridgewood-Carter (ph) area, the motel rooms, and we found at the Hawaiian Motel Mr. Anthony`s car.

Myself and several officers knocked on the door to room number 6. After several attempts, he asked who it was. We told him it was police. We`re here to check on your well-being. He opened the door. As soon as he opened the door, I went in the room, introduced myself as the chief of police, introduced my officers that were present. And we began to talk to him.

We`re here to check on you. Your family`s concerned about your well- being. We know you were sending some text messages. And he basically said to me, You know, I need to be left alone. I need to sort through this. And he reiterated that several times, and he kept asking us to leave. And I said, You know, George, unfortunately, we`re in a difficult situation here because morally, ethically and legally, I can`t leave knowing what I know.

And myself and one of my lieutenants talked for probably 20 minutes to convince him that it would be in his best interest if he went and sought psychiatric help at our Halifax Hospital. Eventually, he agreed. If I would drive him, he would go and speak to some mental health professionals.

Based on the totality of the circumstances, Nancy -- and I got to read some of that letter -- there was no doubt in my mind that he -- he anticipated doing harm to himself.

We drove him to the hospital, and en route to the hospital he asked me if I understand how he felt or could understand how he feels because everybody tells him, yes, you know -- we know how you feel. We know how you feel. And I said, George, I got to be honest with you. I don`t know how you feel. I don`t know if anybody knows how you feel. And he said, That`s the first time anybody`s ever said that to me. And I said, Well, it`s the truth. I mean, you`re going through something that I don`t think anybody would ever go through.

And on the ride to the hospital, we had some -- you know, we discussed different things, nothing related to the case, nothing related to Caylee, just about police work and about the city of Daytona Beach. We got into the hospital, and you know, we explained the situation to the mental health workers, where they admitted him for observation. And I think his son may have shown up some time shortly after we got there.

GRACE: You know, Chief Chitwood, I just don`t know how much more this family can take, how much more George Anthony or Cindy Anthony can take. Chief, you may very well, just by getting him out of that environment, have saved his life. And Chief Chitwood, is it true that just before all of this happened, Cindy Anthony had asked him to pick out the jewelry little Caylee would wear at a funeral?

CHITWOOD: You know, I don`t know, Nancy, because we`re in Daytona Beach, so we really don`t have the specifics as to what goes on in Orange County.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?

CONWAY: Hi. I`m George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney.

911 OPERATOR: Sorry. I didn`t hear you, sir. Your phone broke up.

CONWAY: Can you hear me now?

911 OPERATOR: Yes.

CONWAY: I just spoke with John Allen with the Orange County sheriff`s office.

911 OPERATOR: OK.

CONWAY: George Anthony has been gone since 8:30 this morning, and he has taken several bottles of medication from his house, as well as some pictures. And what worries us is that something is -- he`s done something to himself.

911 OPERATOR: OK.

CONWAY: John Allen advised that I call 911 right away and get a deputy over here to take a report. And that`s Sergeant John Allen with the Orange County sheriff`s office.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Grandfather George Anthony rushed to a hospital psych unit in the early morning hours, this after sending repeated text messages that he wants to end his life and he wants to go be with little Caylee. He is still under psych evaluation right now. He was taken by police under the Florida Baker Act.

With me right now, special guest Chief Mike Chitwood, the chief of the Daytona Beach police, who acted wisely and quickly, taking George Anthony himself to the hospital.

Chief Chitwood, we have the Orange County sheriff`s office police report that states that Cindy Anthony had asked George to pick out jewelry for Caylee for her funeral. Is it your belief he is depressed over Caylee`s death?

CHITWOOD: Absolutely, Nancy. You know, when I first got the phone call from one of my platoon lieutenants telling me what was going on, the first instinct was, This guy`s coming here to make peace with himself. He`s going to get an ocean view, and he`s going to kill himself. That was without a doubt the first impression that I got.

And in the little bit of that letter that I read -- and I can`t go too much into stuff because I`m sure Orange County investigators are looking at it -- it`s quite obvious that he had a very, very strong attachment to his granddaughter. And you know, as a parent myself and a grandparent, I can`t imagine it. It just seems unimaginable, the stress that this whole thing has placed on him and pushed him probably to the ultimate edge there. And you know, fortunately, things are going to work out.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the story since the very beginning. Natisha, what was the sequence of events leading up to George Anthony disappearing?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, he was seen at 8:30 in the morning. Then Cindy said that he came back home. He was supposed to be going to a job interview. The last time that she saw him was about 10:30 this morning.

Now, after that time, there were some meetings during the afternoon that he was supposed to attend. He didn`t show up to those meetings, so they became concerned. Around 11:30 PM is when he started sending these text messages saying that he wanted to end his life, saying that he wanted to go make sure that Caylee was in God`s arms. And then after that time, Brad Conway made that phone call to police, and we heard the 911 call.

GRACE: Also joining me, Drew Petrimoulx from WDBO joining us from the Orlando courthouse. Drew, what is his status right now?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: They say he`s doing OK. He`s -- the Baker Act stipulates that he should be kept under surveillance for 72 hours. But I talked to his attorney. He said he`s doing better. He`s in bed. He`s talked with Cindy Anthony. She was at first distraught over this whole news, then he said almost -- she was almost kind of angry that this happened.

But they`re going over to visit him now. After he left a press conference earlier today, his attorney was going to visit him. He says that, you know, he`s alive, so that`s the best thing they can take away from today because, as the attorney said, that they were at one time really scared that he had already hurt himself, as you hear in that 911 call.

GRACE: To Dr. Mark Hillman (ph), clinical psychotherapist and author. Mark, thank you for being with us. This family is flying apart. I truly believe that if this had happened to one of my twins, I think that my parents, the twins` grandparents, would want to die. I think they would want to die.

MARK HILLMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: ... certainly make peace with that. And as you said, it`s not just about George, it`s about the entire family. This family has seen their entire family splinter, disintegrate and be stripped right before them, item by item, starting from Caylee missing, the media, the protesters, the questions about the private investigators. Everything has been -- the lawyer, the in-fighting, and how people have violated every single aspect.

When there`s more pain than pleasure in life, you can see how this man could see suicide as an option. Hopefully, with these mental health workers, they can bring everything back together.

GRACE: Back to Chief Mike Chitwood, our guest joining us. He`s the chief of the Daytona Beach police. He drove George Anthony to the hospital, possibly saving his life. Chief Chitwood, many people are speculating this evening that he realizes that the tot mom killed little Caylee and it made him suicidal. But as a matter of fact, apparently, in the letter, he still is defending the tot mom.

CHITWOOD: Yes. You know, I didn`t glean anything from that that would indicate any statements that Casey did anything wrong.

GRACE: Exactly. So he was preparing to go to his grave defending his daughter, Casey Anthony.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who has been in the Anthony home, has interacted with entire family. What do you make of it, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s -- you know, every time that I think of George in a cryseye (ph), I remember what the -- a neighbor of his told us this last time that we were back there, and I think about it. He pulled his granddaughter around the neighborhood in a little red wagon, and the little granddaughter would hold her doll.

And I form that mental picture, and I can understand that George is going through hell while still being alive. And he just goes from pillar to post. You don`t know whether to live or whether to die. It`s just -- I mean, we had discussions in the office. Rob was ready to catch a flight and go back there because he considers himself to be, if nothing else, one of George`s last friends. On the other hand, there`s other people that say he was just asking for help. He wants to talk to law enforcement. He wants to...

GRACE: Leonard, he was so clearly deeply in love with little Caylee.

PADILLA: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. He wants to be with her. He definitely wants to be with her. He just can`t accept what has happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not talking to anybody. Stay off my property.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: He`s been angry every day.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You don`t want to be knocked down, get out of my way.

CINDY ANTHONY: Angry with the fact that Caylee`s not home.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You don`t care about my granddaughter~!

CINDY ANTHONY: We are helpless.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You people have no idea what we`re going through. You guys don`t give a -- you don`t care about me. You don`t care about her.

Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! I`m talking. I am talking! Shut up.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re falling apart.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You don`t care about none of that stuff!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: George Anthony rushed to the psych ward just hours ago after threatening to commit suicide, claiming he wants to be with Caylee.

Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, we know that he was traced by cell phone pings, thank God in heaven. How does it work in real time, when you`re not tracking back and looking at a phone record?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Nancy, I don`t want to give away the whole technology, so -- so any bad guys watching -- but it`s amazing technology. Real time, they can get a court order or if there`s exigent circumstance, you can go ahead and get verbal.

But you know, we heard the chief say they were able to get within a two-and-a-half-mile radius. It`ll follow you from ping to ping to ping. Every little cell site where you see -- sometimes you`ll see a pole up and then you`ll see the cell sites. It looks like those squares (ph). That`s a cell site. You can follow it from ping -- from cell site to cell site to cell site and get within -- they got within about two-and-a-half miles, which is -- which is pretty darn good, you know especially since he did have some lead time on him. They go back, take a look, OK, where did he start out? And they`ll be able to track exactly where he went, Nancy.

And I want to commend the Orange County sheriff`s office and the Daytona Police Department for a job well done. I`m glad see that they went ahead and said, This is a critical missing person, we need do this right now.

GRACE: Right now, to Alexis Weed, our producer on the story. Alexis, explain in a nutshell how the Florida Baker Act works.

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE RESEARCHER, ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, this is a law in Florida that permits a temporary detention of a person who is suspected to have mental illness. And if it`s found that there`s a substantial likelihood that that person might do bodily harm to themselves, they can then detain that person and bring them for a valuation into a mental health evaluation facility.

GRACE: When we get back, we`ll unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Gloria Allred, child advocate out of LA, Daniel Horowitz, famed defense attorney out of San Francisco, and Doug Burns, trial veteran, joining us out of the New York jurisdiction. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Several Orange County deputies surrounded the Anthony home immediately. They brought dogs and helicopter because they were prepared for an all-out search to find George Anthony. Even the lead investigator in charge of the case against Casey Anthony showed up.

Cindy Anthony had been inside of the home waiting for George so they could meet with their attorney Brad Conway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, she`s relieved and she`s excited.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George and Cindy were supposed to meet with Conway at 4:00 Thursday afternoon. He didn`t show up so Cindy called the sheriff`s office. Conway told us there`s only one way to explain why George left home Thursday morning and never came back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George isn`t gone. George is here. And he hasn`t left.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: George Anthony rushed to the psych ward at a hospital in the early morning hours around 2:30 a.m. after multiple text messages were sent claiming he wanted to end his life. That he wants to be with Caylee. That he wants to protect her and make sure that she is safe in the arms of God.

Right now, that 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911 DISPATCHER: 911. What is your emergency?

BRAD CONWAY, GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Hi. I`m George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney.

911 DISPATCHER: I`m sorry, I didn`t hear you, sir. Your phone broke up.

CONWAY: Can you hear me now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, mm-hmm.

CONWAY: I just spoke with John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff`s Office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

CONWAY: George Anthony has been gone since 8:30 this morning and he has taken several bottles of medication from his house as well as some picture and -- we`re worried that something is -- he`s done something to himself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

CONWAY: John Allen advised that I call 911 right away and get a deputy over here to take a report and that`s Sergeant John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff`s Office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you`re wanting to report him missing?

CONWAY: Yes, he`s not taken.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What is the address there?

CONWAY: Hopesprings Drive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you say he was last seen at 8:30 this morning?

CONWAY: Yes, ma`am. White male, about 5`11". White hair.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What color eyes does he have?

CONWAY: What color eyes? Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can she -- can she tell you what color clothes he was wearing?

CONWAY: Yes. What color -- what was he wearing? Dress black pants and a blue button down shirt, collared dress shirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. You said he had a couple of bottles of medication.

CONWAY: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know what kind of medication it was?

CONWAY: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Are any weapons missing?

CONWAY: NO.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

CONWAY: But, but he had a weapon that was confiscated so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. But nothing that he had on his person or in the house, correct? I just want to verify.

CONWAY: No, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. All right. We will definitely be sending out a deputy for you. If anything changes or he happens to return.

CONWAY: I`ll call you right away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) please give us a call right away.

CONWAY: I sure will.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Is there anything else that you could think of as far as scars, tattoos.

CONWAY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing on his person that`s more identifiable.

CONWAY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

CONWAY: Just -- white hair.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. So I have white hair, brown eyes, blue shirt, black dress pants, no weapons and the medication. Is that correct?

CONWAY: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he was last seen from the Hopesprings address?

CONWAY: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. We will getting a deputy out to you, OK?

CONWAY: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Bye bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Natisha Lance -- Natisha, did his threats to commit suicide occur after Cindy Anthony asked him to pick out jewelry for little Caylee`s funeral.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, according to the incident report, the picking out jewelry was the date prior and then this happened with the threats the following day.

GRACE: To Dr. Mark Hillman, the tot mom has no idea of the wake of pain she is leaving behind her. Or does she? She just doesn`t care.

MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "MY THERAPIST IS MAKING ME NUTS": Nancy, she`s a psychopath. They have no emotion. They -- they`re very callous. They`re very cold. Any of the emotion that we see on TV, that`s the affect to give an impression she cares.

She doesn`t, Nancy. She is completely detached. Doesn`t care. The crying, the hysterics, even in the videos that you`ve shown, they come in - - on the lost video. Why is mom crying? She just got here. She has no connection to that. She doesn`t care, Nancy. This is a very deep psychologically troubled woman.

GRACE: To Rory O`Neill with Westwood 1 Radio standing by at the Orlando courthouse -- Rory, all of this is happening as many believe another direct link between the crime scene where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered is being made to the Anthony home. I am referring to the duct tape spotted of the gas cans at the Anthony home. Is it the same duct tape?

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO, COVERING STORY: Well, that`s exactly what the tests are going to find out. We have not gotten confirmation of that yet. The tape was on one of those gas cans. Clearly spotted in the back -- in the garage of the home. That was confiscated. And of course now that will be linked back, that tape will be linked back to the tape that was found on Caylee`s skull where she -- where her bones were discovered.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Gloria Allred, Daniel Horowitz, Doug Burns.

Gloria Allred, weigh in.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, Nancy, it`s really very sad what George Anthony is going through. Obviously, he`s under a lot of stress, under a lot of pressure. Writing a note like that, texting, is obviously a cry for help. And I`m glad that he`s getting the help that he is getting and we don`t know whether he knew about this particular evidence but I`m sure it couldn`t help.

GRACE: Do you believe, Mark Hillman, that the grandparents think there`s something they could have done to save little Caylee`s life? I mean speaking as a crime victim myself, I`ll take off my former prosecutor`s hat. I always wondered over and over and still do, this is 20-plus years later, was there something I could have done to save Keith`s life? Could I have stopped it? And what did I do wrong? And I`m surety grandparents must be thinking that.

HILLMAN: How do you reconcile the self-doubt, the guilt because this family is looking at not only lost Caylee, but what about Casey? Because there is a death penalty in Florida. It`s the guilt, Nancy.

GRACE: To -- and of course, I believe that there`s nothing they could have done to save little Caylee`s life.

Out to Daniel Horowitz and Doug Burns. Daniel Horowitz, not only are you a veteran defense attorney, but you are a crime victim after the murder of your wife. How much more can one person take? I mean, Daniel, I know what you went through. Can you imagine, can you even imagine what it would be like to lose a baby? A child like Caylee?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy you know it`s different for everybody and yes, you were there for me so much and I -- never will forget that. I think that he just feels so powerless. You know, he said he would give up his life to save Caylee and, of course, he can`t. It`s a sign that there`s nothing that he can do.

And I do believe, too, that with the evidence coming against his daughter now he can`t help her either.

GRACE: You know, Doug Burns, as the evidence begins to mount against the tot mom, I`m thinking about it early this morning before I knew this full story, the one thing that may save her from the needle the Florida lethal injection.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: Is the fact that her parents are not going to want it. The victim, Caylee`s family, are not going to want to seek the death penalty.

BURNS: No, I agree. And just to amplify some of the other points, and Daniel`s point, I mean, you know, a person who loses a precious granddaughter could not -- could be in a position where they just can`t handle it but here, his daughter`s charged with that horrific crime. So that double aspect is enough to push anybody to where we are tonight.

GRACE: You know, to Dr. Pepper, he is the chief medical examiner of the Aaron Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor," -- Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us.

Dr. Perper, he had with him, we know, high blood pressure or blood pressure medication. Tell me, could any of -- medications, such as blood pressure medication, could that affect your emotions? Could that make him more emotional?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": No, but obviously any kind of chemical taken in excess including water can kill someone so.

GRACE: So -- so there are many factors that could have weighed in on his emotional state?

PERPER: That`s correct. And -- basically suicidal behavior has four major characteristics. It may be suicidal threats. It may be suicidal attempts. It may be completed suicide. And it may be conditional suicide. And obviously suicidal threats are a call for help.

GRACE: Very quickly a special happy birthday to Kentucky friend of the show, Donna.

Happy 55th birthday, dear Donna.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Don`t paint a bad picture of this family. The emotions just take over sometimes. You believe your child. You put faith in everything, you know? I wouldn`t wish this on anyone. This is a tough day for us today. Think about wanting to turn your child in for whatever it might be. It`s hard. It`s quiet. The house is just too quiet. Just tearing you apart.

Whenever these sightings come through and photos are taken of a child that could possibly be my granddaughter, I get excited. My hopes are up there and if it`s not, they get deflated a little bit. My focus is on my granddaughter, it always will be. I love my daughter. I love my wife. I love my son.

I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Grandfather George Anthony rushed to a hospital psych ward in the early morning hours around 2:30 a.m. last night. He is still there at the hospital right now undergoing evaluation. This after sending repeated text messages that he wanted to end his life, that he wanted to go and protect little Caylee.

I want to go straight back out to Rory O`Neill. He`s joining us from the Orlando courthouse from Westwood 1.

Rory, I understand the tot mom was told about her father`s condition?

O`NEILL: Yes, about midmorning this mornings a jail representative did inform her of what happened and they also did offer the services of the chaplain who was regularly available to the inmates at the jail. We don`t know if she took -- took advantage of that service.

GRACE: Back to Chief Mike Chitwood with the Daytona Beach Police. He is their chief of police. He drove George Anthony to the hospital.

Chief, again, thank you for being with us. How long will George Anthony be in the hospital under evaluation?

CHIEF MIKE CHITWOOD, DAYTONA BEACH POLICE, DROVE GEORGE ANTHONY TO HOSPITAL: Nancy, he could be anywhere in there from 12 hours to 72 hours. My understanding is he could probably be released sometime tomorrow afternoon, Saturday afternoon, if everything goes well.

GRACE: Chief Chitwood, you found the five-page suicide letter in George Anthony`s vehicle. Was the letter completed? Did it leave any doubt he`d planned to go and be with Caylee?

CHITWOOD: It didn`t leave any doubt. I mean he obviously had said his good-byes. And, you know, he expressed without getting into too much details. He -- he basically was saying good-bye to everybody and expressed his love for Caylee and I`m sure he is a man who is broken and at the edge of his rope.

GRACE: You know, Chief Chitwood, you found him in the nick of time. How does it work? And in my trial experience I`ve only dealt with retracing cell phone pings that have already happened. How did that happen? You were getting the information and you were following along with it from your patrol car?

CHITWOOD: Actually, Orange County Sheriff`s Office did an absolutely phenomenal job. Their -- high-tech surveillance people were able to get us into the location of where we needed to be and then keep us consistently updated by interacting with our department and liaisoning with us. Got us to where we needed to go and provided us with all the information.

They -- they are really the ones who took the bull by the horns and got this to where it needed to go. We were just there to give the assistance - - obviously, we know our city a lot better than they do when it came time to.

GRACE: Yes.

CHITWOOD: . scouring the area.

GRACE: You know, Chief Chitwood, you see so much in law enforcement especially as chief of police. I know you must be very happy knowing that you have done something so good, so wonderful and what is seemingly horrible situation. The family is splintering apart.

Everyone, it culminated in the early morning hours when George Anthony threatens suicide today at a Daytona Beach hotel.

To the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Dan Horowitz, Doug Burns.

Gloria, this all occurred, it`s doubtful that George Anthony even knows that they were attempting to make a match, the state making a match between the duct tape on the child`s mouth and duct tape on his gas cans at his home.

ALLRED: Well, exactly. And can you imagine it`s good that he is where he is getting the help that he needs while this is being put together because who knows that might have been a breaking point for him if he had been left alone and heard about it.

GRACE: And to you, Daniel Horowitz, you and I -- well, all four of us know this. But when people analyze cases and they do legal strategy and they analyze witnesses and forensics, there are real people here with real emotions and real suffering and it`s easy to forget that for a lot of people.

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, I learned that with -- in the Peterson case when I said things they I really regretted and apologized for with Sherry Roche. I mean the Roche family suffered tremendously as did the Peterson family. And we do have to watch out for them when we`re on the air and when we`re - - you know, attorneys on these high-profile cases.

GRACE: I mean, Doug, how much more can one person take and can one family take? The reality is this will likely have no bearing on the tot mom`s trial except for the fact that the state may reconsider its consideration of the death penalty.

BURNS: Yes, and I think that`s right and also that Gloria was saying, I mean, you know, as we march along and we get more scientific tests and more holes get buttoned up, the pressure just mounts and mounts.

And Daniel`s right, we have to be sensitive. And you made the point, Nancy, sensitive to the fact that these are living, breathing human beings and we saw that tonight with the grandfather, who my god, as I said, I don`t want to be a broken record, but he loses his granddaughter and face the prospect of his daughter going to trial for it and the evidence is mounting.

GRACE: Mark Hillman, Dr. Hillman, is this a natural stage of grief? Where you really -- all you want to do is go be with your loved one?

HILLMAN: Absolutely, Nancy. If you go back to the five stages of denial, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance, George Anthony reconciled within himself to go be with Caylee.

GRACE: Tonight, our prayers and our thoughts with George Anthony and his family.

Right now "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

DANA DELANEY, ACTRESS: Hey, look how I`ve changed.

I did this television movie called "For Hope," based on this little known disease, it`s scleroderma. It an autoimmune disease where your body can over produce collagen. Rather than making your skin softer, it makes it harder. So many people are so disfigured, they don`t want to go out in public and they don`t want to talk about it.

I`m Dana Delaney and my hero is helping to fund ground breaking research to find a cure for scleroderma.

LUKE EVNIN, MEDICAL MARVEL: I`m committed, partly, because I am a patient. I was diagnosed with scleroderma in 1998. I don`t look sick and most of the time I don`t feel sick. I decided to go and make a difference for other scleroderma patients who aren`t so lucky. It can affect almost all of the organ systems.

We still don`t know why someone gets scleroderma and today, it doesn`t have a cure. So I wanted to spend a couple of minutes to see if we can get cut up a little bit.

The scientists do feel like there`s someone looking over their shoulder. I think that it drives them to put everything they can into it. It`s hard to (INAUDIBLE) scleroderma anything but, of course, there are patients out there that I feel like they`re counting on me. I want to do it for them.

DELANEY: Luke just does it. And that to me is a hero. Just don`t talk about it, do it.

ANNOUNCER: Tell us about your hero at CNN.com/heroes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigative documents show duct tape was found on the mouth area of the skull later identified as little Caylee. Along with the remains, the black garbage bags found in the wooded also contain the 2- year-old`s clothing and a Winnie the Pooh blanker.

GRACE: Who else, other than someone that had a relationship with a child would bother to bury her or discard of her in a trash bag with her favorite blanket?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You and I are on the same page. And my theory is as follows. We already know that Casey Anthony has a wild fantasy life about where she works and what she does. And she had probably fantasized that she was putting her child to sleep for good with her blankie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 11-year-old Adams Hermann disappeared from his Wichita area home in May of 1999. Only problem is, Adam`s parents never reported him missing.

GRACE: The adoptive/foster parents continued to collect checks for taking care of this little boy to the tune of $80,000.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trash bag in which Caylee`s body was placed is also identical in appearance to a bag the child`s grandmother Cindy Anthony gave detectives in July.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) direct link between something found there at the crime scene where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Stewart Trejo, 25, Whitefish, Montana, killed Iraq. Lost his life weeks before his tour was set to end. Fulfilled a dream of serving his country like his grandfather. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Iraqi Campaign medal.

Loved the outdoors, restoring cars, played guitar and drums. Dreamed of a trip to Disneyland, renewing his vows after Iraq. Leaves behind grieving parents, Cynthia and Robert, widow Kathy, two children.

Stewart Trejo, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 07:43:37 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Suicidal Grandfather of Murdered 2-Year-Old Still Hospitalized

Aired January 26, 2009 - null   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized.

This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a child`s heart-shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash.

Bombshell. Grandfather George Anthony at a breaking point, still at this hour hospitalized, the grandfather of the slain Florida toddler reported missing after sending repeated text messages he no longer wants to live, that he wants to be with Caylee, Anthony located in a Daytona Beach motel, tracked in real time by cell pings, in his car a five-page suicide letter reiterating he wants to go to little Caylee in heaven, in his motel room, reportedly, sleeping pills and alcohol.

Six long weeks after little Caylee`s remains discovered, still no funeral plans in sight. This while grandfather George Anthony`s problems more serious than first believed, not released after the 72-hour stint, likely in a psych ward for at least another week, if not longer. Tot mom behind bars when told of her father`s illness, her response being kept a secret.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Grandfather George Anthony will not be released from the hospital today after being found early Friday morning in a hotel 65 miles away with a suicide note his car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony is still being treated at the Halifax Medical Center in Daytona Beach. He could have been released early this morning because the 72-hour required stay under Florida`s Baker Act expired several hours ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for the Anthony family says they are still waiting on doctors to confirm a treatment plan, which may reportedly include George being released to a treatment facility closer to the family`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George is realizing that there are a lot of people out there that care about him. And he`s optimistic, but he needs care. He needs to get back to a normal life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, the attorney for the Anthonys said in an interview that it`s now time for Caylee to be laid to rest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s something that they desperately need do. They need bury Caylee and get on with their lives, and the first step in that process is her burial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney says the family had agreed to delay Caylee`s burial so the state and defense could prepare for the tot mom`s upcoming murder trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don`t want it rushed, but we`re going into five -- five, six weeks now. And I think there`s been more than adequate time given, and they are ready to bury their granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, how much more can superstar John Travolta and his family take? After traveling to their luxury home in the Bahamas, tragedy strikes. Travolta`s young son suffers an unexpected death. The Travoltas still reeling over the boy`s sudden death when a $25 million extortion plot comes to light. That`s right, blackmail. Tonight, the arrests of high- powered Bahamian politicians and even the paramedic that drove the boy to the hospital along with dad John Travolta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three people have been arrested in connection with an alleged extortion plot against superstar John Travolta, whose 16-year- old son, Jett, died earlier this month in the Bahamas. Senator Pleasant Bridgewater was detained Thursday and charged with conspiracy to extort and was later released after posting bail. One of the men, an EMT who reportedly worked on Jett Travolta, was arraigned today on extortion conspiracy charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ambulance drive Tarino Lightbourne (ph) shared Jett`s final moments with the tabloids, including personal details about how John Travolta was crying and praying as he fought to save his son`s life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports say the initial extortion demand was $25 million, and Travolta`s lawyers set up the extortionist by pretending to negotiate. TMZ reports that authorities have recordings of those conversations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is absolutely heartbreaking, that when the Travoltas are trying to take their boy, to save his life, to the hospital, there is some idiot in the ambulance recording everything they say, maybe even taking cell phone photos, and now a $25 million extortion plan emerges.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, bombshell. Grandfather George Anthony, rushed to a hospital psych ward after threatening suicide, still not released. Why? As new evidence emerges that could send tot mom Casey Anthony to Florida`s death row.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments today in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. George Anthony, who was found early Friday morning in a motel room with a suicide note in his car, is not expected to be released from the hospital today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It suggested that he wanted to be with Caylee -- you know, leave this earth and go to the next life and be with Caylee, with God.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: That`s the greatest part of my life with her, watching her on that (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His attorney, Brad Conway, believes to make any progress, the grandfather of a murdered little girl will need to properly say good-bye to Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for the Anthonys says George has a long way to go, but the first step is burying Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In our culture, burying your loved one is -- is one of the biggest steps towards healing, and they have not been able do that. They need to take that step.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an interview today, the attorney said that although the family had allowed the burial to be delayed for over six weeks, it is now time for Caylee to be put to rest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys have not talked to their daughter, Casey, throughout all of this. She remains at the Orange County jail. But she was notified about her father`s condition.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I need to be looked at as a victim, just as much of a victim as the rest of you. And it hasn`t been portrayed that way and probably won`t be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, joining us from Orlando, Florida. Kathi, George Anthony we all thought would be released at the end of a 72-hour stint. He`s not. Why?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. Well, it could be one of two things. Either the doctors at the Halifax Medical Center do not believe he`s ready to be released at this point, or else he`s decided that he`s not ready to be released at this point. But medical records are private, so we can`t find out which it is.

GRACE: Joining me there at the hospital in Daytona Beach, Florida, our producer, Natisha Lance. Natisha, what can you tell me?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: ... George Anthony is still at the Halifax Medical Center here in Daytona. Now, what we`re hearing is that there is a security guard outside of his hospital room. And the reason being is because of the high level of his situation. Now, he -- as Kathi said, we don`t know if it`s voluntarily or involuntarily that he is still here, but according to the doctors, he could be released by the end of the week.

According to his attorney, Brad Conway, who -- Brad Conway, who did some interviews this morning, he said that one of the things that George needs to do is find closure, and that closure would come from Caylee`s burial. Now, Brad Conway also went on to say that that burial -- they could set a date for that burial sometime this week.

GRACE: Natisha, you just mentioned security. And I`m glad you mentioned that because I know you just heard me explain what`s happening with John Travolta, that some -- these people -- I can`t believe that someone would try to take pictures or record the last moments that Travolta was with his son and try to blackmail him!

My point is, there`s no telling who might try to sneak into George Anthony`s room and take a picture of him, overhear what he`s saying through the door. Tell me what you know about the security there at the hospital.

LANCE: Well, I do know, Nancy, they said that there is one security guard who is outside the hospital room. They said that they are working in shifts. They didn`t give meet timeframe as to how long that shift is going to be. But I did walk through the hospital, and security in the hospital itself is pretty tight. You can walk down the hallway, but if you`re trying to go in to see a patient, there is a process. You have to sign in. You have to be notified. You have to be someone who is part of the family. Now, we have heard that Cindy Anthony did come to visit. We also heard that his attorney, Brad Conway, will be coming to visit tomorrow.

GRACE: Out to the lines. We are taking your calls live. To Andrea in Texas. Hi, Andrea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s so good to finally talk to you.

GRACE: Thank you for calling, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, if it turns out that Casey Anthony did this and that she disposed of the body, is there any way that, like, Texas Equusearch or some of the other volunteer organizations can file fraud charges on her, since they were out there looking and she knew where the body was?

GRACE: OK, Liz, hold Andrea. Andrea, it`s my belief that under the law, they may be able to file such an action. But here`s the reality. That would be civil -- a civil case. You`ve got criminal law, where you go to jail if you`re held liable, and civil, where you pay money damages. She doesn`t have any money, Andrea, unless -- unless, Nikki Pierce with WDBO, there is a TV or book deal in the works. Then she would have money.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: She would have money. But we cannot confirm or deny that there`s any kind of book deal, any kind of entertainment deal. Jose Baez came out and blasted the media. Certain media here in town was reporting that he did have that type of deal.

GRACE: Oh! Oh, wait a minute! Wait a minute! Because we already know $200,000-plus has changed hands for photos and video of little Caylee. So who`s to say that more money hasn`t changed hands?

Everyone, very quickly, we`ll be right back in just 30 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Andy Kahan, the director of the Houston mayor`s crime victims` office. Andy, before I even get to the fact that somebody`s now hawking a Caylee doll, can the tot mom make money off money and book deals?

ANDY KAHAN, DIR., CRIME VICTIMS` ASSISTANCE UNIT, HOUSTON MAYOR`S OFFICE: She can, as long as -- until she gets convicted.

GRACE: Did you say she can or can`t?

KAHAN: It depends. She has to be convicted and there has to be a court order barring her from profiting. And then the other -- and that`s only way you`re going to stop it.

GRACE: So -- but at this moment, she can make money, is that what you`re saying?

KAHAN: Yes, unless there`s a court order preventing it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Several Orange County deputies surrounded the Anthony home immediately. They brought dogs and a helicopter because they were prepared for an all-out search to find George Anthony. Even the lead investigator in charge of the case against Casey Anthony showed up. Cindy Anthony had been in front of the home waiting for George so they could meet their attorney, Brad Conway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, she`s relieved and she`s thankful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George and Cindy were supposed to meet with Conway at 4:00 o`clock Thursday afternoon. He didn`t show up, so Cindy called the sheriff`s office. Conway told us there`s only one way to explain why George left home Thursday morning and never came back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George isn`t gone. George is here, and he hasn`t left.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would give my life right this second to have her dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George is realizing that there are a lot of people out there that care about him. And he`s optimistic, but he needs care. He needs to get back to a normal life. That`s something that they desperately need do. They need to bury Caylee and get on with -- with their lives, and the first step in that process is her burial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everybody, George Anthony still in the hospital under security. Back to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by there in Daytona Beach at the hospital. Natisha, what could you learn was in the hotel room?

LANCE: Well, Nancy, according to reports, there were beer bottles, as well as some pills that were taken. Now, it was a two-week supply of pills. We`re hearing that they were sleeping pills, as well as high blood pressure medication.

GRACE: And Natisha, also, I understand the tot mom was told about her father`s condition behind bars. And her reaction is being kept secret?

LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. According to the Orange County jail policy, they can`t reveal her demeanor, what her reaction was. But she was notified, and not too long after that, she received a visit from her attorney, Jose Baez, as well as another one his associates.

GRACE: Joining me right now everyone -- we are taking your calls live, our producer, Natisha Lance, standing by there at the Daytona Beach hospital. To Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, joining us from our Manhattan studios. Dr. Taylor, this was a Baker Act 72-hour deal. Why aren`t they releasing him?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, the purpose of a 72-hour hold is to evaluate. And apparently, probably with his own consent, they are keeping him there to evaluate and see how he`s doing and make sure that he`s not a danger to himself or others. So it sounds like it`s very appropriate and pretty good that he`s still in the hospital.

GRACE: Dr. Taylor, I`ve seen it bandied about in various news reports that a funeral will give him closure. As a crime victim, I can tell you right now, a funeral does not give closure. In fact, I don`t think murdered victim`s families get closure. I think that they go on, they learn to function, but that they are never the same as they were before.

TAYLOR: Well, you`re absolutely right. It`s complicated. What a funeral does is start the motions going for some closure to deal with the grief. But there are so many unresolved issues. You still have a court case. You still have anger. You still have resentment. So I agree, it`s a wound that keeps getting bigger and bigger. But the funeral can be important for them to certainly get together as a family and honor little Caylee.

GRACE: Speaking of the wound not being able to heal, back to Andy Kahan. Andy, have you heard about the Caylee Marie Anthony tribute doll that is being sold for $29.99?

KAHAN: You know, just when I think I`ve seen it all, from serial killer action figures to serial killer calendars, and now you`ve got some sleazebucket company that`s trying to use the likeness of a poor murdered girl on a doll, trying to make a profit off. This is about the lowest I`ve seen anybody ever stoop to. And the fact that this company is claiming that they`re going to give, like, a whopping $3 of this $30 doll they`re trying to sell to some reputable organization for victims means that it`s just an afterthought on their part. This is about -- they`re nothing but a bunch of crazed vultures, from my perspective. And I hope the American public doesn`t buy one doll.

GRACE: To the president of Showbiz Promotions, who created the Caylee Anthony tribute doll, Jaime Salcedo, sir, you have just had some very harsh criticism. Why the doll?

JAIME SALCEDO, PRES., SHOWBIZ PROMOTIONS: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on, Nancy. I appreciate that. And yes, I heard that criticism. It`s not something that we did not expect. We actually have been over it several times and we discussed the criticism that would come from this. And for that exact purpose, we did not create the "Caylee Sunshine" doll in the likeness of Caylee Anthony. We thought that that would be way off base in this. And...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Why does it not -- the fact that you gave the little doll blond hair -- how does that somehow remove the sleaze from this whole thing? I mean, Caylee was murdered. Her body was disposed of like trash. And you are making $29.99 off every doll.

SALCEDO: All right, first of all, just because you did mention the $29.99, a portion of the sales are going to charity. Now, I...

GRACE: How much? Who?

SALCEDO: And now...

GRACE: Wa-wa, wa-wa, wa-wa! How much?

SALCEDO: Now, at this point, a big portion of it is going. We don`t know...

GRACE: Well, how much?

SALCEDO: ... because we haven`t sold any at this point.

GRACE: But you know...

SALCEDO: We don`t know.

GRACE: Right now, I`ve got a book that I`m working on. It`s going to come out. And I know that I`m giving exactly how much I`m giving to an organization that searches for missing children. Now, I don`t -- and I haven`t sold a single book, may not sell one. But my question to you is, why don`t you know how much you`re giving?

SALCEDO: Well, because -- understand that we can`t make that decision until we know what all the costs are incurred in it. A portion of the profits...

KAHAN: Oh, come on.

SALCEDO: ... will go. We have no idea what the entire project will cost.

GRACE: OK, who`s the charity? Who`s the charity.

SALCEDO: All right, now, that`s another step that we`re sidestepping on because -- here, simple. We contacted a few of the biggest organizations in the world, and especially in the United States. They don`t want to partner up because it`s -- it`s a policy that they have to follow. They cannot get themselves involved with a case that they`re handling. Apparently, this is a non-profit policy...

GRACE: Who did you contact?

SALCEDO: I cannot even bring up the name of the organization...

GRACE: Why?

SALCEDO: ... but I`ll tell you this -- because they forbid us to. We can`t partner up with them.

GRACE: Whoa, wait. I know you`ve heard of the 1st Amendment freedom of speech thing.

SALCEDO: Sure.

GRACE: So you can state -- nobody`s stopping you from saying, I contacted X, Y and Z...

SALCEDO: Sure. Sure, let me...

GRACE: ... and they do not want to be my partner.

SALCEDO: Sure. Let me tell you that, like I said, the biggest organization in the country that I know of is the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. That was the first corporation, or organization, that we contacted, so that we could help them. Their answer was real simple. They don`t speak about Caylee Anthony on their Web site. It`s not that it`s good or bad. They can`t do it. They don`t raise funds using the name of any children or any situation that they`re following. So it was difficult for us. That is the organization that we want to give to.

GRACE: Why are you -- why are you doing this?

SALCEDO: Well, you know what? We thought about this several times. And you know, we said no many times because we felt like if we did something in the likeness of...

GRACE: I have some advice. When in doubt -- when in doubt -- say little and do less.

Everyone, we are taking your calls. With me tonight, Jaime Salcedo, who has created the Caylee Anthony Tribute doll.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." The search goes on for a missing 6-year-old boy who vanished into thin air, southwest Florida, Adji Desir last seen January 10 just outside of his home. He was there with his grandmother. He`s got the mind of a 2-year-old. The little boy cannot verbally communicate.

After a massive ground search called off, police say they are relying solely on tips. Little Adji is just three feet tall. He`s 45 pounds, black hair, dark brown, beautiful eyes. If you have info, please, please call Crimestoppers, 800-780-8477.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officers found an unfinished suicide note in his car and possibly another. Local 6 has learned he used words like he wanted to be with Caylee. Chitwood personally escorted him to the hospital, where he was psychiatrically evaluated overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that`s the perfect word (ph). It`s a sad story. It`s sad for everybody involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls live. To Sarah in Ohio. Hi, Sarah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you so much for doing what you`re doing, telling that guy off. And congratulations on your kids and your husband.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you a lot. OK, now, I was wondering, did you think that Caylee`s grandparents put off burying her because maybe they were waiting for Casey to get out of jail? Maybe they were thinking, you know Casey`s going to get out of jail soon and she can bear this burden? I myself have buried a child, and it`s terrible. I know what that is. I know what planning a funeral is. And maybe they were waiting for Casey to get out of jail to plan this. I mean...

GRACE: OK. Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, you`ve been with the family. I think that they are very firm in their knowledge that she is not going to get bond.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No, she`s not going to get bond. Those charges will prevent it. And so far as -- as far as the child being buried, Cindy`s calling all the shots on that particular situation right now. Not even the attorneys are involved.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911 DISPATCHER: 911. What is your emergency?

BRAD CONWAY, GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: George Anthony has been gone since 8:30 this morning and he has taken several bottles of medication from his house as well as some pictures and -- we`re worried that something is -- he`s done something to himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found him at the Hawaiian Motel Mr. Anthony`s car. Myself and several officers knocked on the door at the room number 6. After several attempts, he asked who it was. We told him it was police. We`re here to check on your well-being. He opened the door. We began to talk to him. We were here to check on your. Your family`s concerned about your well-being and he basically said to me, you know, I need to be left alone. I need to sort through this.

There was no doubt in my mind that he anticipated doing harm to himself. When en route to the hospital, he asked me if I understood how he felt or could understand how he feels. And I said, George, I`ve got to be honest with you, I don`t know how you feel. And he said you know that`s the first time that anybody`s every said that to me.

I said well, it`s the truth. I mean you`re going through something that I don`t think anybody would ever go through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandfather George Anthony at a breaking point, admitted to a psychiatric unit, psych evaluation unit, there at Halifax Hospital, Daytona Beach, Florida, after sending multiple text messages he wanted to go be with Caylee and make sure she was safe in heaven in God`s arms.

He was scheduled to be released from the psych ward today after 72 hours. That did not happen.

On another front, the whole usage of chloroform has taken a bizarre twist. Back to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by the Daytona Beach hospital. What can you tell me about one the tot mom`s former boyfriends?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, you`re referring to Ricardo Morales, Nancy. And he had on his MySpace page, it was a picture of a man and a woman and on -- it was stated on there "win her over with chloroform."

Now Jose Baez files a motion saying that he wants all the forensic reports referring to Ricardo Morales` computer and he`s most interested in this picture that says "win her over with chloroform."

Now Ricardo Morales told investigators that he never spoke with Casey Anthony about chloroform. He doesn`t even know if she knew that it was on his MySpace page. But -- and they also did very, very intent investigating of his computer forensics. They also went through there. He apparently had deleted some items from his computer but they said there was nothing on his computer that had any type of incriminating evidence.

GRACE: So, Kathi Belich with WFTV, it`s my understanding the defense may somehow use this to their advantage?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I think they would like to. I think that they mentioned the fact that the investigators had said there was nothing incriminating on Ricky Morales` computer. The defense does not want to take that for granted and is asking for all of his computer records. And they -- of course, they would be focusing on that chloroform.

Now Ricky Morales told investigators that Casey may have seen that on his computer. He put it on there in early January. They dated January, February, March. March was the first she had apparently done research on chloroform, in making chloroform. So the investigators and prosecutors are drawing that connection. Now the defense wants to look a little deeper at Ricky Morales for that reason.

GRACE: With me, Nikki Pierce from WBDO Radio. Nikki, I`ve got here in my hand the defense motion to compel copies of screen shots and a lot of other information of Ricky Morales` computer. What do we know about Morales?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, we do know that they split up in -- in April.

GRACE: Yes.

PIERCE: But they knew each other for -- for quite some time. We also know that he`s been up to this point very cooperative with the police in the investigation, but if you take a look at that document, you`ll see that Baez specifically mentions that Morales and Casey were still dating when those -- when those searches for chloroform and all of that popped up on the Anthony home computer.

You have to wonder if maybe he`s going to say Ricardo Morales did those searches.

GRACE: To John Lucich former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies," the police have done, we hear, exhaustive searches of his computer. How do you do that?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Well, you do a keyword searches and you actually take a look at the entire image of the hard drive.

Well, getting back to Baez for a second with the computer searches. He`s asking for one piece of evidence off that entire hard drive. He`s out of his mind. He should be asking for the entire evidence files that make up that.

When a prosecution prepares a case they`re looking at the evidence one way, a defense attorney`s going to look at it the whole other way. There may be so much evidence on there that he could use in this case and he`s not going to have the opportunity if he doesn`t take a look at those evidence image files.

GRACE: When you just say -- when you just said you look at the hard drive, a lot of people don`t know what in the hay you`re talking about. Could you please break it down for us?

LUCICH: Absolutely. What you do is you create a forensic image and that protects the data on the hard drive. And whether it`s -- the unallocated space which means files have been deleted or something has been cached, we can find evidence on that hard drive by doing keyword searches. So whether we do a keyword search for somebody`s e-mail address or something else, we can locate them very quickly.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of San Francisco, famed defense attorney, John Burris. Also joining us out of New York, veteran trial lawyer, Alex Sanchez.

First to you, Alex Sanchez, do you see this as an avenue for the defense?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do see it. I mean, this chloroform is central to this case. They`re saying that Caylee Anthony, you know, may have downloaded information about chloroform or maybe the child died because of chloroform and now we find out we got a former boyfriend was advertising this peculiar statement on MySpace about chloroform, I think definitely Baez should look into this issue and possibly if he could squeeze it in during the trial, do it.

GRACE: Burris?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with that. And because I think that -- my -- ultimately they`re trying to show that this chloroform was a mechanism used to kill this child. But on the other hand, it may be that the -- the Baez and Casey may have had a relationship where chloroform itself might be news some way.

So I think they wanted to use it in such a way to minimize that it was used, purpose -- exclusively for purpose of trying to maybe do the kid in. So I think that that`s a real point of avenue, searching from the defense. I like that.

GRACE: Oh they`re going to have a field day.

Out to Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, bottom line is, if Caylee`s remains are totally skeletonized, will we be able to tell whether her remains had chloroform in them?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: I don`t think so.

GRACE: Why?

BELL: Because it -- that`s not the usual type of tissue that`s used in detecting chloroform. So I`m -- I just don`t know if they`d be able to do so.

GRACE: This -- so much time has elapsed.

Out to the lines, Phyllis in North Carolina. Hi, Phyllis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your babies are so beautiful and when I see them, I can see you in them. I want to thank you for covering this so compassionately.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you -- what I would like to know is if you think that knowing that her dad blamed himself, you know, for not being a good father and not being a good grandfather, and knowing that he wanted to kill himself will maybe somehow to make her decide to tell the truth and put an end to the suffering that she`s caused her family?

GRACE: Phyllis, Phyllis.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know she`s not suffering.

GRACE: Phyllis, no, I do not think so. I don`t think the suffering of others registers with her.

What about it, Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: No, I absolutely agree. You know she`s shown that she has a real detachment from her emotions and there`s no reason to think that, you know, the untimeliness and unfortunate situation where her father would give her anymore empathy or make her care anymore. I mean after all it took a month for her to report the loss of her daughter.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Kathy, Arizona. Hi, Kathy. Do I have Kathy with me? To Cary in Oklahoma. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you, again, like the other caller says. I have appreciated all of your indebtedness and everything.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And thank God for another good mom who cares. Your kids are great, they`re beautiful. And I wanted to ask, Nancy, what - - why haven`t we been able to hear a report on Jeff Hopkins? If he had a child that was watched by this Zenaida Gonzalez, the nanny, why hasn`t that been brought in immediately by getting in touch with this man to find out it`s true or not?

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by the Daytona Beach Hospital, what is the truth about Jeff Hopkins? Remember him from the very beginning, the tot mom said she worked with him and that is where she found the nanny that allegedly stole Caylee?

LANCE: Jeff Hopkins did not know a Zenaida Gonzalez. He does not have a son named Zachary. He said that he knew Casey, they never dated. He knew her in passing. They were acquaintances. But it was not the situation that Casey had expressed it to be.

GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, we are taking your calls live and we want to congratulate a friend of the show and newlywed, Brian Gudensky(ph), Brian and his new bride Nora, exchanged vows last Sunday. And now they`re a happy family of six.

Congratulations, Brian and Nora.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Bahamian politician, along with two other men, have been arrested for alleged extortion plot against actor John Travolta. The extortion plot was reportedly in the offer of $25 million. And some reports say that authorities have audiotaped the conversations between the extortionist and Travolta`s attorneys.

The EMT who treated Jett, a self-described friend of John Travolta, and a Bahamian politician were all obtained by police for questioning late last week. The politician senator Pleasant Bridgewater and the EMT are both facing extortion conspiracy charges. The other man has not yet been charged.

A private funeral was held for 16-year-old Jett Travolta earlier this month as friends and family gather to remember the teen whose cause of death was listed as seizure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Tom O`Neil, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly." Tom, what happened? Haven`t they been through enough?

TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: I know, Nancy, what makes this all the more tragic and horrible is that if these allegations are true, it involves a betrayal of trust between medical and government authorities whose job it is to protect these people from this kind of thing.

GRACE: OK, to you, Marc Malkin, senior columnist with "E! Online." Marc, what exactly are the allegations as to what happened?

MARC MALKIN, SENIOR COLUMNIST, E! ONLINE: Basically the allegations are that someone was trying to get $25 million from John Travolta and his wife Kelly Preston for -- if they gave them the money, they would hold back a certain document that would that embarrass them. The document had something do with Jett`s death.

GRACE: And what do you think that was?

MALKIN: You know, that is a good question. No one knows.

GRACE: Wasn`t it a cell phone photo?

MALKIN: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Was it a cell phone photo?

MALKIN: No, the police are saying it is not a photo. The police say they do have the documents in their possession but it is not a photo.

GRACE: OK, run through that one more time, Marc. What do you believe the extortion plan involved?

MALKIN: It involved some sort of document that apparently was going to embarrass the Travoltas and it had something to do with Jett`s death. Police are saying they`re not getting details on what this piece of paper is.

GRACE: OK, Tom O`Neil, who has been arrested?

O`NEIL: Well, first the paramedic who arrived first at the scene when Jett collapsed in the bathroom on January 2nd and he drove the ambulance back to the hospital. This is this Tarino Lightbourne. He is accused of actually hatching this thing, of contacting the Travolta camp demanding $25 million initially, and then negotiating some other sum in between that he would settle for.

GRACE: $25 million. And who are the three people under suspicion? Who are they?

O`NEIL: Well, this is the medical guy. There is also Pleasant Bridgewater. All of these people have names that sounds like they come from a Nathanial Hawthorne novel. Pleasant Bridgewater was charged also with abatement and conspiracy to extort. She is a former Bahamian senator. She resigned on Saturday. She is one of the three people accused of being on this recording, conspiring with Travolta`s attorneys.

The third person has not been charged. This is Obie Wilchcombe. This is the former minister of tourism, who is a self-profess friend of the Travolta`s family. He`s also a member of parliament. He claims that he was simply tipped off by the -- by Pleasant Bridgewater that something, quote/unquote, "untowards" was happening and that he was contacted because he knew the Travoltas and that they were going to straighten this out.

GRACE: So you`ve got a senator, Pleasant Bridgewater, a Bahamian politician, and there is the photo of Pleasant Bridgewater. That`s from MackeyMedia.com. You`ve got Tarino Lightbourne, the actual paramedic that drove Jett`s ambulance, and then you`ve got Obie Wilchcombe, who has been detained and released, who was a self-professed friend of John Travolta`s.

O`NEIL: Correct. And Obie Wilchcombe says, quote/unquote, "I did a noble thing." He claims that he is not involved in this at all and that, of course, at this point he`s not been charged either. He has been released pending further investigation.

By the way, Pleasant Bridgewater says that all of these allegations are, quote/unquote, "innocent" -- that the accusations against it were actually innocent actions perversely twisted.

GRACE: OK, so now they`re blaming everybody else. Not unusual.

We are taking your calls live. Let`s go out to the lawyers. John Burris, Alex Sanchez.

John Burris, right now the details of the extortion plot have not been made public. Why?

BURRIS: Well, I think that it must be that they want to make sure that the individuals do not have a chance to obstruct justice and cover the evidence up in some way, either by tipping off their friends or et cetera. I think they`re still under the very early stage of making sure that the case is airtight before they release what the actual concept and evidence that they have concerning the extortion plot. So I think they`ve just been very cautious and it`s probably a good thing at this stage.

GRACE: Well, and another thing, Alex Sanchez, if they repeated whatever it is that`s part of the extortion plot, wouldn`t that be essentially disseminating the document they plan to reveal? It would it be affecting the extortion plot.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I mean, if they -- if they gave some type of a document, either Travolta or someone else, they planted some pretty hard evidence that is ultimately going to be used against them. So I would be very interested in seeing exactly what that document was.

GRACE: And let me ask you, guys. Do you really have any faith in the Bahamian government`s prosecution? I mean, did you see what happened during the Anna Nicole Smith proceedings down there? It was -- it was a horrible -- well, you know what, and in Florida as well. So we can`t throw too many stones at the Bahamas.

But what about it, John Burris, do you trust their government to follow-through with this?

BURRIS: Well, I have no reason not to trust them and they actually moved pretty quickly on this here. And so John Travolta`s a pretty famous guy so there`ll be a lot of attention on this. I think that, given what I have seen so far, it seems like you can trust what they`re trying to do. If they didn`t want to -- by not disclosing it up front like they had, it seems to me they wanted to be careful.

GRACE: Right.

BURRIS: . in their efforts. So I would trust them right.

GRACE: Alex?

SANCHEZ: If the government of the Bahamas is anything like the government of Aruba, I think we`re in trouble.

GRACE: Yes.

SANCHEZ: As far as this case.

GRACE: Yes, a lot of trouble. To Dr. Janet Taylor, MD and psychiatrist, Dr. Taylor, who would take advantage, or try to take advantage, of parents who just lost their son?

TAYLOR: You know it`s a case where greed just overrides common sense. I mean just intentionally try to take information, it`s unethical from the medical technician`s point of view and then hopefully if the senators are involved, I mean people elected to public service are supposed to look out for your constituent`s best interest and not get caught up in greed and corruption.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Dr. Bell is Palm Beach County medical examiner. Dr. Bell, reports indicated that Jett Travolta had been taking an anti-seizure drug called Depakote.

BELL: Yes.

GRACE: But had stopped taking it. What is it?

BELL: Depakote, is also called -- and also contains Valproic Acid. It`s used to control seizures. And obviously, if you`re not taking the medication, the seizures may return.

GRACE: You know, I want to go back to Andy Kahn with the Houston Victims Unit. Andy, I know you`ve heard about this extortion plot. What do you think about these people trying to take advantage of the Travoltas who have just lost their boy unexpectedly? And one of these guys is the ambulance driver there. And this -- moment when the boy is either just dead or dying, and Travolta is allegedly trying to talk him back to life.

ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF HOUSTON MAYOR`S VICTIM`S CRIME OFFICE, MONITORS MURDERABILIA SALES: What a bunch of parasites. This is about as low level bottom, river dwelling, catfish people that prey upon family members who just lost a loved one, and particularly a -- young child like that, and to try to use whatever leverage they can on his celebrity status simply to make profit of.

I -- you know, I really hope they throw the book at him. I feel so, so, so, so sorry for the Travolta family, to lose someone and now have people close to them.

GRACE: And -- Andy, one of them is actually a Bahamian senator.

KAHAN: That`s -- that`s even more repulsive. When you find high- level, high-ranking people. Unreal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Travolta knew his son was a special child. And he nurtured the relationship. He gave him love, demonstrated publicly at all times. And you saw the pain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: One of these coops, allegedly a senator there in the Bahamas.

To Dana in Connecticut. Hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, what`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I wanted to know if you could tell me what the legal definition of extortion is, what it entails for somebody to be arrested for extortion.

GRACE: OK. Alex Sanchez, John Burris, in a nutshell, Alex.

SANCHEZ: Extortion is when you try to extract something or some behavior from someone by threats. That`s extortion.

GRACE: John Burris, commonly known as blackmail.

BURRIS: Blackmail. It was clearly blackmail. Somebody has something they want to get from else that the other people want to keep private.

GRACE: Yes.

BURRIS: And you want -- they want to get money from you.

GRACE: Evil, evil to do this to the Travoltas at this time in their life.

Back to Andy Kahan. Andy, can you believe -- you`ve got the ambulance driver that you trust, and then you`ve got a senator, a Bahamian senator, allegedly trying to scam Travolta for $25 million over the death of a son.

KAHAN: You know, you can`t even let the Travoltas grieve in peace for the loss of their loved one. And now they`ve got to find out that people close to them and a high-ranking official is trying to extort money. It`s just like being gutted all over again.

GRACE: So, you know, Andy, after you heard about the Caylee look- alike doll, do you ever just go home and feel the wind knocked out of your sails? You see this all day.

KAHAN: Take a look at my forehead and you can see why I have no hair. It`s just-- every day, it just seems like there`s something more and more bizarre that happens. And it just never ceases to amaze me, human behavior.

GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop. I want to remember Marine Corporate Adam McKiski, 21, Cherry Valley, Illinois, killed Iraq on a second tour. Fulfilled his dream of serving the Marines like his grandfathers.

Lost his life days after second wedding anniversary. Loved snowboarding, fast cars, hiking with this dogs, water skiing. Leaves behind his parents Hal and Mary, sister Emily, widow and high school sweetheart, Jamie.

Adam McKiski, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/26/ng.01.html
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 09:34:13 AM »

4 Feb 4th

Nancy Grace Transcripts
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/04/ng.01.html

Issues with Jane Velez-Mitchell Transcripts
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/02/ijvm.01.html
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 11:42:41 AM »

Nancy Grace FEB 18, 2009 RE: recent Doc dump
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/18/ng.01.html
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 07:01:27 AM »

NANCY GRACE
February 25, 2009
Judge Postpones Anthony`s Civil Deposition

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/25/ng.01.html
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 09:25:27 AM »

Nancy Grace 3/18/09

GRACE: And tonight, the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. Have cops recovered a smoking gun? Reports surface tot mom`s personal diary entries include a sideways confession to killing her own 2-year-old girl, the private entries reportedly so damming, even calling Caylee`s murder a, quote, "mercy killing," and chock full of notes on chloroform and pesticides, prosecutors now being forced to reconsider the death penalty. But will these hand-written diary and notes be admissible in tot mom`s murder one trial?

And tonight, videos from a private eye and e-mails between renowned Oak Ridge laboratory and local detectives set to go public. What do they reveal? And tonight, the owner of that heavily wooded area where Caylee`s body found bagged and discarded puts the memorial up for sale.

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about diary entries in a diary that apparently spans years? Reports surfacing that tot mom described why Caylee was killed and also detailed notes on chloroform and pesticides?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. There is a report out about those things that supposed missing pages in Casey`s diary have surfaced and that these things that you just mentioned are in those pages.

What I can tell you is, when that part of the diary was released, if there was more to be released, it probably would have been released at that time. Prosecutors wouldn`t play games with evidence and pick and choose part of the book to be released now and part of the book to be released later.

From what we understood back then, those pages were missing when investigators found that book. And that`s what they have.

GRACE: So you`re saying that there were actually pages removed from her diary?

BELICH: There were pages. You could see that pages were removed from the diary when that -- the pictures of that diary was -- were first released. You can see that pages were missing in between. And everybody was debating about whether this diary was coming from 2003 or recently because the page to the left, which seems like the earlier pages, said 2003. But there was a whole chunk of pages missing in between -- before you got.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there in Florida.

Natisha, what can you tell me? What is allegedly in the diary? What are these notes about, chloroform and pesticides, and reportedly a motive for murder? What does tot mom say about why little Caylee was murdered, if these allegations are true?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, reportedly, Nancy, they are saying that this was a mercy killing. So that Casey could save Caylee from her mother, Cindy Anthony. Now none of these reports have been substantiated. But this is what this report is saying, saying that she had planned to kill Caylee and it was to save her from Cindy Anthony.

GRACE: To Dr. Joseph Deltito, professor of psychiatry. We are taking your calls live.

Dr. Deltito, is that a way to justify a murder, call it a mercy killing, that the child would be better off dead and in heaven than to live with the grandmother?

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: It wouldn`t be the first time it happened. I mean that type of story is one I`ve heard before that people convince themselves that it`s better for the kid if this happened to them.

Of course, underlyingly, psychologically in such a case, one has to have great animosity towards the grandmother and be willing to kill the child as punishment to the grandmother, not only as salvation for the child even in a perverted mind. So I think at a certain perverted logic, it does hold together and it`s a story that I`ve heard before and others like me have heard before. Variations of it.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, what more can you tell me about the diary? When was it uncovered? Where was it uncovered? And what about these reports?

PETRIMOULX: It was actually found in the Anthony home. It was released as part of discovery. It was recovered from the home when they went back to the home to serve search warrants after the remains had been found.

And there were some interesting things that were found in there that we did see. It said that she was looking to move on. And she was concerned about what had happened, hoping for a brighter future but from what we see, from the page dated, it says 2003.

Now there are some pages removed. So as Kathi was saying earlier, it sparked a whole controversy over when that was written. And it also looks like there are those pages that were cut out. So where those pages are now it`s very interesting especially since this new report comes out saying that they go all the way to the day that -- the day before and the day after Caylee was actually killed.

GRACE: To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins. Question, we`ve had a lot of discussion in the past few days about a paternity test, paternity test for Caylee that was taken on tot mom`s own brother Lee Anthony. How is it done?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: So basically, there`s DNA from both the -- from Caylee and the potential person. And a match is performed. And you can either tell that the person is a perfect match for being the father or some distant relative. And there`s really nothing in between.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka. Back to the diary, if we see that swaths of the diary have been cut out, Renee, around the time the child goes missing and is murdered, not a good look for the defendant.

ROCKWELL: No, it`s not. Because as long as they can prove that it is her diary, and you have to think, first of all, Nancy, why would anybody write this down? Secondly, knowing that the investigation looms, why would she keep it? But the fact that part of it is torn out and the rest of it remains does not look good.

GRACE: OK, a couple of very plain and rudimentary observations, Alan Ripka. Why does somebody keep it? Well, if you take a look at many serial killers of the past, you see that they keep mementos of their killings. This is not unusual at all. In fact, it is predictable.

So the fact that she would keep a diary or document the killing in some way is not surprising at all. It is predictable, just like you and I might take a photo of our senior prom and keep it. Same thing here.

So Alan Ripka, why people write it down and keep these mementos, I`m not surprised at all, if it`s true. But tell me, in a nutshell, how you get this into evidence and prove that it`s her diary.

RIPKA: Well, once you prove that it`s her handwriting, Nancy, through an expert, you can get it into as an admission by her own handwriting and her own conduct. And the judge will allow it in as long as it`s probative of what went on.

He may not let things in regarding other boyfriends and other things that don`t pertain to this case. But anything that may pertain to this murder or Caylee he`s going to let in as probative information.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.

KATHY, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Yes, hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

KATHY: The twins looked like leprechauns last night.

GRACE: Thank you.

KATHY: And my question is when Casey was younger did anybody check to see if she had any psychological problems?

GRACE: OK, to Natisha Lance, any history of mental illness at all that we know of?

LANCE: None that has been substantiated but we do have reports from some of her friends who said that Casey had asked to be committed before. Also George Anthony mentioned in an interview that he did have a sister who had had some mental issues, so possibly it had skipped a generation and it had possibly affected Casey.

GRACE: Thank you for the armchair psychiatric evaluation.

Mike Brooks, what are your thoughts on the diary?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, again, you know, is it her writing? We`ve -- that`s going to be easy to do with a handwriting expert, get exemplars from her via subpoena, and they should be able to tell, that`s important, is it hers or not.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0903/18/ng.01.html
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Brothers and Sisters, I bid you beware/Of giving your heart to a dog to tear  -- Rudyard Kipling

One who doesn't trust is never deceived...

'I remained too much inside my head and ended up losing my mind' -Edgar Allen Poe
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