Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09 - 1/18/09

[Tamikosmom]

Why is everybody talking about crabs?  Isn't that a FISH trap?  It was my understanding that it was for fish only and not crabs.

And I do think someone with a trap that size would use something much thinner than denim for a bait bag.

Tim Miller thinks it is a crab trap.

Janet

+++++

The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/

[sharon]

From my understanding the stone can be used inside of a bait bag.
This bag "Denim"? is filled with fish to attrack crabs.. The rock holds the bait bag on the bottom.

Interesting, Edward.

Where do they do it that way?

I've gone crabbing in Maryland and in NJ and have never seen that before.

I've never seen that done in lobster traps in South Florida either.

I'd like to learn more.
.

My husband ties the mesh bait bag to the center of the trap.  He claims that rocks would not prevent the bait bag from shifting to one side of the trap as the trap made its way to the ocean floor.  Crabs would then be attempting to get at the bait from outside the trap rather than entering it.

I think I got that right.  I do not think he is about to repeat it to me for the fourth time.

 

Janet

Thanks Janet!

You have saved me from the adventure of trying to meet a commercial fisherman 

For me, fishing is just the 'means' for spending a beautiful day on and in the sea. I do what I am told by the captain. Even drive the boat 

I think I should start paying more attention. Apparently I'm doing things wrong 

[jen3560]

Yes, Jen. The sizing of the photo distorts the perception on the distance from shore.

LOL - that's ok.  I'm terrible at judging distances from pictures like that anyway! 

If you do a reverse, and look from the Dateline footage back toward shore- it's easier, for me anyway, to determine the distance because of the landmarks on shore.

I am just saying this is true from personal viewing. I took the pic.

Ah.  Gotcha.  So that was the Panter, and that is when it was at the cage site on Jan 11/12.

[bleachedblack]

lol Cuban crabs

[Anna]

Why is everybody talking about crabs?  Isn't that a FISH trap?  It was my understanding that it was for fish only and not crabs.

And I do think someone with a trap that size would use something much thinner than denim for a bait bag.

I think the nature/type of trap got diminished since 2005 when it was a fish trap.

As the importance of the situation increased, the type/significance of the trap decreased to the point where the verbiage being used was confusing to a lot of folks.

Fish heads, fish heads. . . .Roly, poly fish heads. . . .Eat 'em up, Yum!

One of my kids sang that for three days once.  Closest I think I ever came to getting physical with one of them.  He just refused to stop it and it did get old after that second day of hearing it.

That's a FISH trap.  At least it was in 2005.  Crab traps are usually smaller, aren't they?

And whether or not a hoist was needed would depend on the weight of the contents of the trap?  Good catch, maybe.  Again would also depend on what was in it.  I am not sure but think crabs would weigh more than fish on average because of water in the shells, etc.

Still think that is a fish trap, though.

.

[jen3560]

Yes, Jen. The sizing of the photo distorts the perception on the distance from shore.

LOL - that's ok.  I'm terrible at judging distances from pictures like that anyway! 

If you do a reverse, and look from the Dateline footage back toward shore- it's easier, for me anyway, to determine the distance because of the landmarks on shore.

I am just saying this is true from personal viewing. I took the pic.

Ah.  Gotcha.  So that was the Panter, and that is when it was at the cage site on Jan 11/12.

Oh wait.  You said Dec 2007 - not Jan 2008.

OK - now I'm confused, LOL.

What boat is that in your pic?

[bleachedblack]

Doesn't appear to be the Panter. Looked more like a cargo type boat.

[Tamikosmom]

From my understanding the stone can be used inside of a bait bag.
This bag "Denim"? is filled with fish to attrack crabs.. The rock holds the bait bag on the bottom.

Interesting, Edward.

Where do they do it that way?

I've gone crabbing in Maryland and in NJ and have never seen that before.

I've never seen that done in lobster traps in South Florida either.

I'd like to learn more.
.

My husband ties the mesh bait bag to the center of the trap.  He claims that rocks would not prevent the bait bag from shifting to one side of the trap as the trap made its way to the ocean floor.  Crabs would then be attempting to get at the bait from outside the trap rather than entering it.

I think I got that right.  I do not think he is about to repeat it to me for the fourth time.

 

Janet

Thanks Janet!

You have saved me from the adventure of trying to meet a commercial fisherman 

For me, fishing is just the 'means' for spending a beautiful day on and in the sea. I do what I am told by the captain. Even drive the boat 

I think I should start paying more attention. Apparently I'm doing things wrong 

Actually ... my husband just crab fishes for sport.  Small trap but ... sometimes there can be as many as 20 crabs when the trap is pulled up to the boat.  However ... there is a size and amount limit.  After throwing back all the undersize ... even by 1/4" ... we are lucky if a 1/2 dozen can be kept.  The process begins again.  After the cost of feeding about 100 crabs and ... only allowed to keep eight ... those eight can be considered very valuable.    A heft fine is the consequence if a fishery's officer were to board our board and ... any undersize crabs are to be found.  The crabs would be used as evidence.

There is the story about a boat that was boarded by a fishery's officer and ... there was a large container with six large but undersize crabs.  The fisherman claimed that they were pets and ... he brought them to the ocean each day for a swim and ... when he whistled they would return to the boat.  The officer was skeptical.  "OK.  Demonstrate" ... he instructed.  The fisherman threw the six crabs overboard and ... in a minute he whistled but ... not one crab returned.  The officer as where the crabs were and ... the fisherman said ... "What crabs?"

 

Janet

[Nut44x4]

Why is everybody talking about crabs?  Isn't that a FISH trap?  It was my understanding that it was for fish only and not crabs.

And I do think someone with a trap that size would use something much thinner than denim for a bait bag.

The only Crabs found around Aruba are way too small to be caught in any trap...unless it is the sticky like fly catcher trap hang up thingy...hehe...those buggars would stick to those. 

[Anna]

Well, anybody want to talk about Crawdads?  Only kind of crustaceans we have around here but they are pretty good with the proper seasoning.

[Tamikosmom]

lol Cuban crabs

The scene reflects an Autumn day in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia.

 

Janet

[Anna]

Actually ... my husband just crab fishes for sport.  Small trap but ... sometimes there can be as many as 20 crabs when the trap is pulled up to the boat.  However ... there is a size and amount limit.  After throwing back all the undersize ... even by 1/4" ... we are lucky if a 1/2 dozen can be kept.  The process begins again.  After the cost of feeding about 100 crabs and ... only allowed to keep eight ... those eight can be considered very valuable.    A heft fine is the consequence if a fishery's officer were to board our board and ... any undersize crabs are to be found.  The crabs would be used as evidence.

There is the story about a boat that was boarded by a fishery's officer and ... there was a large container with six large but undersize crabs.  The fisherman claimed that they were pets and ... he brought them to the ocean each day for a swim and ... when he whistled they would return to the boat.  The officer was skeptical.  "OK.  Demonstrate" ... he instructed.  The fisherman threw the six crabs overboard and ... in a minute he whistled but ... not one crab returned.  The officer as where the crabs were and ... the fisherman said ... "What crabs?"

 

Janet

 


Maybe it's just an idea I have fixed in my noggin but I tend to think of cold water for crabs, lobster and salmon.


Don't think there are good crabs in warm water.  Could be wrong about that, but think they some how started calling it a crab trap when it really isn't.

Not sure why that happened. 

[jen3560]

As to a Colombian fisherman.

OE posted at SM:

March 18, 2008, 10:21:41 AM
The potential issues of a Venezuelan fishing vessel passing through:
- The location of the trap is significantly out of the way for passing through vessels. 
- The location of the trap is not in an area where fishermen fish with commercial traps 

March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM

Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements

[bleachedblack]

Why is everybody talking about crabs?  Isn't that a FISH trap?  It was my understanding that it was for fish only and not crabs.

And I do think someone with a trap that size would use something much thinner than denim for a bait bag.

The only Crabs found around Aruba are way too small to be caught in any trap...unless it is the sticky like fly catcher trap hang up thingy...hehe...those buggars would stick to those. 

 

[Tamikosmom]

Why is everybody talking about crabs?  Isn't that a FISH trap?  It was my understanding that it was for fish only and not crabs.

And I do think someone with a trap that size would use something much thinner than denim for a bait bag.

The only Crabs found around Aruba are way too small to be caught in any trap...unless it is the sticky like fly catcher trap hang up thingy...hehe...those buggars would stick to those. 

 

I have not seen a "fly catcher trap hang up thingy" for years.  Can they still be purchased?  We have a couple of battery operated fly swatters.  No more smashing flies up against your wall ... you just zap them.

 

Janet



Na

[Anna]

Yes, they still make the fly trap sticky paper.  I use it around puppies where nothing else is safe.  However now there is a parasite thingy that you put out every month and it destroys the flies in the larvae stage.  Comes in a package with wood shavings and you dump out near source of flies such as a barn.

Works well, too.

Ah, science and technology.


 

[Kermit]

Here is more from Hodges about the missing trap, and what they used to make their mock up:

http://forensicthoughtprints.com/aruba/default.html

The Cage
The fisherman also noticed that a large fishing cage stored behind the first of the three Fisherman's Huts at the southern-most corner was missing. The cage had been there approximately a month since about Good Friday, March 25, 2005. The cage belonged to another fisherman who kept his boat next to these four huts. The boat was still there. But the cage was missing.

The fisherman described the cage as made of 3/8-inch iron (such as that used in concrete reinforcing—"rebar") with a frame size approximately 5 ½ feet by 4 feet by 17 inches. He described it as a large fishing cage with its frame wrapped in chicken wire with its familiar hexagonal openings but with an opening in one panel which allowed them to trap fish. He believed that, given its size and weight, it would take two men to manage the cage. Once aboard, it would lay low on the floor of the nearby fishing boat.

 

there was no cage missing
H.Mos told that in his last press conference.
the cage was at the FM's house

Ain't it interesting how Hans Mos repeats Julia Renfro's post. Note the date, well after the evidence was retrieved from Jan. 7th dive to the cage/trap

Glenda Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:48 pm
Kyle is FOS
Dear Kyle,

Your efforts to recover Natalee are applauded, but I'm sorry to tell you that there was never a Crab/Fish Trap stolen. There is no indication that Natalee is in a Crab/Fish Trap or her remains could possibly be found off the coast of Aruba. Moss said you are looking for a needle in a haystack.

Feel free to search... But DON'T SAY THAT ARUBA DOESN'T HAVE the capabilities to search for Natalee. 10s of Millions have been spent searching for Natalee. Where was the Persistence when the Dutch was asked for their expertise in your home port Louisiana after Katrina?

Don't compare your misinformed efforts to what the Dutch is more than capable of doing if there were valid indications.

Regards from Aruba


Hans Mos now states: "The cage that they said that was found is not the cage that was taken from the hut. since the owner of the Cage at the Hut had his cage at his house for repair"

[Anna]

.
And Julia has never been known to lie, lol. . . . . . .

Must be why Mos would take her word for something.  She may well be his source for that little tidbit.


.
 

[Kermit]

CAGE
#691 on: March 18, 2008, 10:21:41 AM
We've internally discussed the possibility of a "post office" of sorts while awaiting forensic testing results. 
The problems with this theory include: 
-little or no evident anchor scars from a boat or boats at or anywhere near the site which would support diving ops.
-The trap shows no apparent evidence of human tampering one would expect from in situ placement and removal of objects inside the trap. The sand inside the trap shows no disruption.  The soft growth on the trap shows no obvious scars, where something scrapes or slides on the trap during a placement or withdrawal
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366270#msg366270


#682 on: March 18, 2008, 09:28:45 AM
Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366260#msg366260

Kyle said: "The trap in question is significantly larger than Dr. Hodges reported dimensions from the fishermen huts owner. http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about13702.html

Jan 27, 2008 - The Aruba Coast Guard boarded the Persistence for a friendly visit at 0810 hrs this morning.
 Sun 27-Jan 2355 hrs. "The possibility exists that they revisited the cage and did a site sweep, sampling more items including human remains around the 12th of Jan when I witnessed the Dutch Coast Guard on the site two days in a row.



Kyle said: "This is a picture taken right next to the fisherman's hut that was allegedly broken into.  The picture shows the cut-away spot in the brush where we believe the trap was stored.  There are branches cut off and rub marks on other branches indicating a trap of at least 6-7' wide may have been in the spot.  The cut-away was symmetrical.   The trap we found was too large to fit inside the fish hut door (see attached picture of the fish hut door that was replaced after the break-in).

[jen3560]

Thanks Kerm!

That was precisely why I was questioning the validity of the dimensions given to hodges by that fisherman.

Because of that picture and what Kyle said about it.

Kyle said: "This is a picture taken right next to the fisherman's hut that was allegedly broken into.  The picture shows the cut-away spot in the brush where we believe the trap was stored.  There are branches cut off and rub marks on other branches indicating a trap of at least 6-7' wide may have been in the spot.  The cut-away was symmetrical.   The trap we found was too large to fit inside the fish hut door (see attached picture of the fish hut door that was replaced after the break-in).