Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09 - 1/18/09

[Kermit]

The test trap is no where near the actual size of the trap that was actually found.
jmho

Blonde.. That family photo does not include a picture of Luis in it that I can see.
I have a picture of Luis here I will find it and post it.

I would beg to differ - it is approx 2 feet smaller than the one found.  According to Kyle's estimation of measurements on the cage found.

I am just looking at the divers around the trap found and they are small compared to the trap..
But what ever works for ya.

I beleive there's a post somewhere from Kyle to PI explaining the distortion from the camera lens.

The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360072#msg360072

[jen3560]

Doesn't appear to be the Panter. Looked more like a cargo type boat.

My miskate - and my apologies.

I think I may have been confusing that pic with another one that people were posting about being the Panter here.

[Kermit]

.
And Julia has never been known to lie, lol. . . . . . .

Must be why Mos would take her word for something.  She may well be his source for that little tidbit.


.
 

That is exactly what I was thinking Anna.

[Kermit]

Kyle said originally that they were searching where they were based on the confession of one of the suspects, who we now presume to be Joran.

Kyle said: "Here's a shocker: the confession from one of the former suspects I was refering to was NOT Joran.

Kyle said: "FYI, we're not stupid. We wouldn't do anything involving forensics even if we had to. Whatever we do will be under the blessing and cooperation of Aruban authorities and the proper people at every stage of this project.

[Kermit]

CAGE
#691 on: March 18, 2008, 10:21:41 AM
We've internally discussed the possibility of a "post office" of sorts while awaiting forensic testing results. 
The problems with this theory include: 
-little or no evident anchor scars from a boat or boats at or anywhere near the site which would support diving ops.
-The trap shows no apparent evidence of human tampering one would expect from in situ placement and removal of objects inside the trap. The sand inside the trap shows no disruption.  The soft growth on the trap shows no obvious scars, where something scrapes or slides on the trap during a placement or withdrawal
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366270#msg366270


#682 on: March 18, 2008, 09:28:45 AM
Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366260#msg366260

Kyle said: "The trap in question is significantly larger than Dr. Hodges reported dimensions from the fishermen huts owner. http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about13702.html

[Tamikosmom]

I find it highly suspicious that no other target was explored following the retrieval of the contents of the trap/cage.  The Persistence packed and left Aruba ....

Janet

++++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #713 on: March 01, 2008, 07:07:54 PM »

It would be rotten of me to lurk and not comment about our departure.  I agree, it feels absolutely awkward leaving.  I know it seems there are more questions now than before the search even began.  The only comfort and comment I can affort is knowing that many questions will be answered in time. 

As for the remaining targets:
There are between 100-200 targets yet to be explored.  Remember, we are searching for anything that could contain human remains, not just a fish trap. It's likely most of these remaining targets are simply debris or unimportant seabed features.  However, we originally set out to leave no stone unturned.  The plan is (as of today-plans do often change) to return to these targets once we've secured adequate funding with a dedicated ROV team on a different boat.  A different boat would be more efficient at running ROV operations both in terms of maneuvering and cost. 

-The Aruban authorities do not know our target list, nor have the capability to investigate most of the targets. 
-AF2 is on the Island.  To me this indicates Cheney is on the island, but I can't confirm this nor comment on the reason for the visit.
-The trap in question is significantly larger than Dr. Hodges reported dimensions from the fishermen huts owner.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg358604;topicseen#msg358604


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2008, 06:35:58 PM »

The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360072#msg360072

[jen3560]

Kyle said originally that they were searching where they were based on the confession of one of the suspects, who we now presume to be Joran.

Kyle said: "Here's a shocker: the confession from one of the former suspects I was refering to was NOT Joran.

Kyle said: "FYI, we're not stupid. We wouldn't do anything involving forensics even if we had to. Whatever we do will be under the blessing and cooperation of Aruban authorities and the proper people at every stage of this project.

Makes you wonder who the other 'confessor' was, and Why that was given zero credence by Mos, in conjunction with Joran's confession to Patrick.

Not to mention Mos having been on board Persistence for (at least) Dec 29 dive.

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle said originally that they were searching where they were based on the confession of one of the suspects, who we now presume to be Joran.

Kyle said: "Here's a shocker: the confession from one of the former suspects I was refering to was NOT Joran.

Kyle said: "FYI, we're not stupid. We wouldn't do anything involving forensics even if we had to. Whatever we do will be under the blessing and cooperation of Aruban authorities and the proper people at every stage of this project.

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245


private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #686 on: March 13, 2008, 06:38:07 PM »

But sharing information with people who work for people who are directly orchestrating the cover up, Rudy, or the Dutch, is the most irresponsible investigating I can imagine. What kills this investigation is people having to come into it, wanting to apply basic investigatory protocols into place, and then having those channels sabotage the new evidence that the new players discover. Of course, as is happened everytime in this case, the new people eventually come to a point where the manipulation of the evidence is undeniable, but by then the fruits of their work are gone, and there is simply another member of the believers of the cover up group. What I pray that Kyle and the crew of the Persistence will determine, is that  regardless of how hard working the man that they are working with appears to work, his work belongs to Rudy, and Rudy belongs to the local dutch.

We are not hysterical, ignorant, paranoid people. We have seen the cover up in action, in broad daylight, with impunity, and if you disregard our warnings, you will become the next chump in a series of chumps, no matter how sophisticated your equipment, the level of your educational achievement, or the extent of your job skills and work history.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364750#msg364750

[Kermit]

Since December 15th, an oil exploration crew from south Louisiana has used sonar equipment to scour Aruba's ocean floor looking for Natalee.Tuesday, Jan 01, 2008 - 11:19 PM Updated: 11:34 PMBy Jennifer Hale

January 7 the ROV dives down to the cage and evidence is gathered

January 17 CAPS puts his first post at SM
January 22, 2008, 01:32:49 AM - Caps posted his theory about what he thinks happened
January 26 Kyle puts a post on his blog about how the Aruba dive team are so trustworthy and have become good friends
January 27 The Aruba Coast Guard boarded the Persistence for a friendly visit at 0810 hrs this morning. For an hour we shared coffee, traded T-shirts, swapped stories, and showed them our progress.

Jan. 21 - 10 days before the Ranger Rover confession Kyle met downtown in public with Mos
(date tapes were released, Jan. 31 st is when Beth saw them with DeVries)

Jan 27, 2008 - The Aruba Coast Guard boarded the Persistence for a friendly visit at 0810 hrs this morning.  Sun 27-Jan 2355 hrs. "The possibility exists that they revisited the cage and did a site sweep, sampling more items including human remains around the 12th of Jan when I witnessed the Dutch Coast Guard on the site two days in a row.

January 31, 2008 - CAPS emails Dave Holloway

February 01, 2008, 09:52:13 PM CAPS posts:
Montana Apartments
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.1620

February 01, 2008, 10:26:49 PM
CAPS POSTS: The Montana Park Apartment is where all started..The Sex etc...
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.1620

February 9, 2008 - Jossy Mansur: A man claims he found a telephone behind the lighthouse in 2005; it was broken; he fixed it and dialed a person with the phone, so his story goes. The person apparently answered and said that that number belonged to Paulus Van der Sloot. The man is now giving testimony to the police. Late, but still important enough to be taken into consideration.

Caps emails Dave: I have spoken to John and he is in contact with MOS.

Feb 26CAPS posted: Reply #2727 on: February 26, 2008, 09:29:40 AM
The pond in question (MOKO) is right out near the Whitehouse Apartment.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2720

CAPS posted: Reply #2729 on: February 26, 2008, 10:36:09 AM
Look for Noord and look for Moko.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2720

Find Aruba. Look for Noord. Look for Montaña. Look for Moko
CAPS posted:  Reply #7 on: April 15, 2008, 09:24:02 AM »
they where located in Moko and where in the massages bussines
now lets look at the addess to the Dutch Apartmnts

Posted 2nd week of FEB: KYLE:  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.700

Feb 17th through the 23  - Kyle Kingman based on his agreement with Tim Tehran and Louis Schafer flew to the east coast to meet with Executives of the networks.
                            for the purpose of selling the ROV/VIDEOS of the trap/cage.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357222#msg357222

Kyle said: "The producer from 20/20 asked me if I saw the badges or credentials of the police officers. I had a total DEAR LORD moment, but recalled seeing the three divers several times with other police in uniform. Also the leader of the three I later saw with a badge.

Kyle said: "Dave was involved with the search until the 30th of Dec from an information-only level. I don't know if he knows anything about the blue denim-like fabric and have no reason to suspect that he does. I would say he knows as much as Beth, perhaps slightly more. It's time Beth knows what the truth is about that trap"

Kyle said: "Right before the Dateline special aired Tim and Louis asked if I could go to ABC to try to sell the footage in an attempt to recoup some of the money invested in the search efforts"
Everything remained in my possesion.

The ROV/Video images, never given to the family or FBI.

Feb. 22, 2008Kyle posted at BFN: This program was originally pitched by NBC to Tim Miller to be a docuentary about TES and turned into a documenary about the Search for Natalee Holloway's body.  It seems NBC shamelessly used Tim Miller to get on board the Persistence during the search

Feb. 22, 2008 = NBC Dateline special.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23261368/

Reply #494 on: February 26, 2008, 08:55:26 PM »
Bad news on the search.  Persistence has completed the underwater survey/grid.  Have identified 100+ objects and trying to narrow the list.  However, they are totally out of money.  If they can't come up with donations within a week or 10 days they will have to go home.
Dave Holloway has been talking to various officials to help chip in.

Without contributions Persistence is coming home.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.480

KYLE posts that when the crew from Persistence was searching the pond, AMIGO took pictures, they didn't call the press and the polis knew and Amigo knew prior to the pond search. Someone leaked.

Kyle: "This is what I'm trying to figure out now. I need to know the leak! I believe Caps is only one step away from DirtyHand."

Caps said: "my uncle is a Lawyer and He always talk abaout to have Roll duty."
Caps said his brother told him what Mos was upset about before Mos made any statements publically

FEB 28th -  the Persistence sudden departure and asking for money to continue the search.

February 29KYLE TO RED: "Let me make myself perfectly clear.  Your bitterness towards me is neither my fault nor my concern.  If what you said is true and Tim Miller said something making you feel entitled to be on board this boat at some point, he was mistaken.  It was not his decision, nor mine"

March 1 - RV Persistence announced it is leaving Aruba http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8398.0
March 3 - John meets with Caps
March 3 - Kyle learns that the screenshots he sent to the FBI - the FBI sent to Dave and Dave's wife, Robin posted them on the internet.
March 3 - LegalLEx posts at BFN: "I think an immediate agenda many of us have taken on is... to continue... trying to find significant funding/donations... to finish the search... at least of those 150 (or so) targets that may yield Natalee and... maybe... evidence.
<snip>
Since John does not deal with the financing portion, (TES and Louis do),


April 7 KYle said: I'm uncertain as to whom Caps has been talking about. This witness wouldn't talk to police and would only talk to us at first through his lawyer.

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle said originally that they were searching where they were based on the confession of one of the suspects, who we now presume to be Joran.

Kyle said: "Here's a shocker: the confession from one of the former suspects I was refering to was NOT Joran.

Kyle said: "FYI, we're not stupid. We wouldn't do anything involving forensics even if we had to. Whatever we do will be under the blessing and cooperation of Aruban authorities and the proper people at every stage of this project.

Makes you wonder who the other 'confessor' was, and Why that was given zero credence by Mos, in conjunction with Joran's confession to Patrick.

Not to mention Mos having been on board Persistence for (at least) Dec 29 dive.

The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."

Chris Hansen: Did you think that was it?

Dave Holloway: I did.

And the Holloways weren't alone. The next day Aruban authorities, including chief prosecutor Hans Mos, came on board to see for themselves.

Tim Miller: We showed them what we had. I think they got real interested, too. We all thought we had something.

The Aruban authorities agreed the find looked promising. And finally, divers from the Persistence and the Aruban police set out to get an up-close look.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/

[Kermit]

I know that Caps emailed Dave, but because Dave didn't understand what Caps was saying, he didn't
respond to him.

So that is when lalasmom emailed Dave.

Then they  got the permission to search Monserat pond based on Caps & a witness.

The witness contacted Helen Lejuez (who is Dave's attorney in Aruba).

Helen then contacted Aruba Polis.

The witness gave a statement and that is why they allowed the Persistence to search the pond with the side sonar.

Kyle mentioned he saw tires and some other targets on the pictures from that sonar search.
Then all the posts about how they were going to drain that pond and search it further only to find out it was dry.

[Kermit]

Kyle said: "I think rocks in the cage are very unusual and indicate amateurs in opposed to fishermen disposed of the cage.




Kyle said: "In my opinion the trap was dropped purposefully where it was. Perhaps the strongest argument I have is it's contents.

[Edward]

At this point what do we hope to do about the trap ?
From what I can see, not much can be done now..

[Kermit]

thank you texasmom, I ate that tasty fly you left for me as my snack today.
ribbit

[Kermit]

At this point what do we hope to do about the trap ?
From what I can see, not much can be done now..

Put pressure on them.
They covered up evidence.

[jen3560]

At this point what do we hope to do about the trap ?
From what I can see, not much can be done now..

Lots can be done, actually.

US officials can subpoena Persistence records, testimony from those on board, and an accounting of personal and business financials.

At that point our State Dept would have to step in, and request cooperation from Aruba/The Hague regarding the findings from step one, and obtaining evidence/testimony from the Aruban side of things.

Satisfactory results, however, may be a different story.

[Blonde]

The Antilla is located on the west coast not far from  Malmok Beach
And there was that cage also (in the same area )

I don't think this is anywhere near where the cage and remains were found.

picture - next to last row from bottom

DSC01316 - The above-water portion of the Antilla - a great Pelican perch
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/aruba

the shallow waters a few hundred yards off the coast of Aruba, the wreckage of the German freighter Antilla can be found. ...
www.coldwarhistory.us/Exhibitions/History/Antilla_in_Aruba/body_antilla_ in_aruba.html  post #2   

arubalisaPlease do not try to swim the .40 mile to the Antilla snorkel for "x" amount of time and then swim back to shore against the wind and current.

The last person who I heard who attempted this was rescued via dinghy by a member of the Jolly Pirates crew who luckily for the snorkeler, happened to be nearby.snipped

http://www.aruba.com/forum/f10/snorkeling-antilla-32925/
------------------

I do believe that the cage was found further than .4 of a mile offshore.  And in none of the video footage can there be seen this "above water" portion of the wreckage.

The above image is a sample side scan sonar image to illustrate the type of imaging and resolution a high quality digital side scan sonar is capable of acquiring. A wreck (~150ft long 3-masted schooner) is laying upright on the seabed. The dark area to the left of the wreck is the acoustic shadow. A crab trap similar in size and character to the one we will be searching for thought to contain the remains is seen near the bow of the wreck, shown by the black arrow.

After the side scan sonar trials, the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team and acoustic positioning personnel moves in on location. We moved to a site with about 100ft water depth, adequate to test the acoustic positioning equipment with the ROV. We deployed and calibrated a compatt (computing and telemetry transponder) and then deployed the SeaEye Falcon 1266 ROV. Once in the water, the ROV was tested for telemetry and video functionality. The ROV performed flawlessly.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.0

[Kermit]

[Kermit]

Excellent Blonde.
I was looking for that!
Thank you.

[Kermit]

Clyde Burke is Caps friend.