Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09 - 1/18/09

[Anna]

MINUS -12 degrees BELOWwwwwwww Zerooooooo at 6am 

Today
Jan 16

Details Clear
Hi: 22° Lo: 13°


 
 

[Tamikosmom]

There may not be a clear cut answer to this question, but here goes:

Why would Aruba wait 2.5 years before addressing a body (in a cage) in the ocean?

(1) Was it just sloppy on their end?
(2) Did they feel it was safe there, but needed to move it upon an announced search?

I do not know the answer. Just a thought (out loud) ....

I contend that the John Silvetti/ALE plan was that upon discovery of the trap/cage which held Natalee Holloway remains ... only the Arubans would take over the sampling and recovery process.  Aruba would then be in the position of claiming that the contents were not case related.  In return John Silvetti would be compensated one way or another.

However ... according to Kyle Kingman's own wordsTim Miller became a liability.  He saw the ROV images ... contacted Dave Holloway and ... excitedly shared that Natalee's remains had been found.

Dateline became an issue.  The ROV images that revealed more than a trap/cage on the bottom of the ocean floor became an issue.  Then Kyle Kingman's own words regarding concerns encompassing the chain of custody ... the John Silvetti Aruban conflict of interest has become an issue.

IMO

Janet

++++++++


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed

Kyle:  This program was originally pitched by NBC to Tim Miller to be a docuentary about TES and turned into a documenary about the Search for Natalee Holloway's body.  It seems NBC shamelessly used Tim Miller to get on board the Persistence during the search.

Kyle:  John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability.

Kyle:  Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle:   John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship

Kyle:  He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that.


THE DATELINE SPECIAL

The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

Tim Miller: I stepped on the boat and said “Natalee we're coming to get you.” Now we're finally coming to get you. And I still believe that from the bottom of my heart. She's out here and now we're on our way.

Over the holiday season, the crew of the persistence worked day and night to survey the ocean floor and look for targets that could hold the key to finding Natalee.

On Christmas Eve sonar pictures revealed what looked like a large trap, almost exactly where Tim Miller theorized it would be.

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.  ... In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


The search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure."  He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--"he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/

[Keepthefaith]

You're being way to logical again Janet!

[Tamikosmom]

You're being way to logical again Janet!

LOGIC DICTATES!!!

 

Good Morning Keepthefaith.

Janet

[Keepthefaith]

You're being way to logical again Janet!

LOGIC DICTATES!!!

 

Good Morning Keepthefaith.

Janet

Good Morning to you!Just sitting here thinking what great people the Holloway's are.What they've done down in those water's is reprehensible.We have poster's that come on here and defend them which is their right but i find the SILENCE from Kyle(OE),as well as the rest of the pirates VERY TELLING regarding what transpired out in those waters!It's just my opinion but it seems the only one's that would defend such actions are either family member's,and or crew!Remember this is just my opinion...

[2NJSons_Mom]

Anna,

You asked a question about the lenth of the Persistence search having been extended.

The time extenstion and larger grid area was due to Richardson saying they needed to search further out, in deeper waters.

This was right after they found the trap.

Silvetti had already turned his back on the trap by this point, and did what Richardson suggested - left the originally planned search area - and extended their grid into deeper waters further out.

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle:  I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me. After the Jan 7th Dive I got off the boat for R&R from the 9th-14th at the Holiday Inn. Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean". Meanwhile I'm standing on the beach watching the Dutch Coast Guard at the trap site for 42 and 45 minutes respectively over two days (11-12th). When I got back to the Hotel on the 11th and 12th after seeing the coasties out there I told John. He didn't want to hear it and didn't believe it. However, a couple weeks later he told me he looked into it by talking to Richardson who said "...not to worry, the Coast Guard doesn't have dive capabilities.
GOOD MORNING MONKEYS!  GOOD MORNING ZOOKEEPERS!

Janet
8:30 AM PT

I'm having difficulty with these Richardson quotes.  When did he learn of this revelation that Natalee is in the deep ocean?  WTH

USCG has dive units.  I find it absurd that a tourist island has a coast guard without dive capabilities. 

Again, logic dictates.

[Tamikosmom]

"THE BEST-LAID PLANS OF MICE AND MEN OFTEN GO AWRY."
Robert Burns

John Silvetti and the ALE never counted on Tim Miller observation as well as his call to Dave Holloway.  John Silvetti and the ALE never counted on Kyle Kingman professional analysis of the ROV image as being the catalyst that would expose the Persistence hoax.

IMO.

Janet

++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle:  I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further.

After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.


Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:
 
Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464

[Keepthefaith]

Kyle Kingman

"After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

LOGIC DICTATES

[sharon]

I'm having difficulty with these Richardson quotes.  When did he learn of this revelation that Natalee is in the deep ocean?  WTH

USCG has dive units.  I find it absurd that a tourist island has a coast guard without dive capabilities. 

Again, logic dictates.

Dirty Dolfi. 

Right. I guess their coast guard only guards the coast ABOVE the water. 

Our coast guard randomly checks the bottom of cruise & cargo ships before they arrive and depart the Port of Miami

Guess not in Aruba.

Yet one more reason to...

AVOID ARUBA AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT...IT DOES!!!

[klaasend]

http://www.hyped.nl/details/20090116_online_poker_speler_krijgt_belastingformulier

Online poker player receives tax form online poker less lucrative tax
 
Think your safe money with poker via the Internet, shows that the Dutch tax authorities in possession of all your data, including user and gains. Online poker players receive a tax form sent home, where they serve their extra income to give, so that tax could be levied. The Inland Revenue is "very accommodating": only the real income tax paid to do, so less additional revenue.


De Telegraaf reports that the measure should yield millions. Some professional pokeraars would sometimes even millions of barrels and to generate additional income without having to comply with the tax. The Tax and sends an initial hundred brochures and letters, part of the so-called control strategy of the service.
In the Netherlands, hundreds of people were pleasant life of poker. It is in our country is immensely popular poker and there are relatively many professional pokeraars as "courageous beginners on" quick money can make. Interestingly enough, even Joran van der Sloot (known from Peter R. de Vries) as a successful pokeraar said. Whether he gets a form is not clear.

Lawyer Duynstee represents forty poker professionals. He claims that they are first confronted with the poker tax. He advises clients not without more pay. According to De Telegraaf, there is great anxiety among pokeraars. They want to know how their name and address of the Tax it.

 

[Tamikosmom]

I understand Kyle Kingman's silence concerning his concerns while on board the Persistence ... not condone the silence ... but I understand.

However ... upon setting foot on American soil ... his first stop should have been the FBI.  All the words Kyle posted on the Natalee's Freebird site and the Scared Monkey's site regarding his concerns regarding a possible coverup in regards to the remains of an American citizen who when missing on Aruban soil ... all the ROV footage ... should have be share with U.S. authorities.

The next stop.  The family of Natalee Holloway.

If doing right was Kyle Kingman's focus ... he could have emerged as a hero by exposing John Silvetti's participation in the finale' to the great Aruban coverup.  Instead ... Kyle Kingman became a participant himself in the finale' to the great Aruban coverup and ... this makes me so angry ... it makes me so sad.

Kyle ... one year later ... it may be late in the game but ... I am pleading that you do the right thing and ... let the chips fall where they may.  Put yourself in the place of Natalee Holloway's family.  Imagine that that the remains of your beloved could have been in that cage/trap and ... please respond accordingly.

Janet

[Edward]

What difference can a day make ????? .....well in this case it meant a lot as they quickly got him on a plane to NL and off Aruba.  You read what was wrote and you see the Judge did not follow his own words.  For the police to release the 3 on 9/3 obviously means there was no 9/4 which had been "known" since July per the article.

The judge and police worked together to manipulate the publicity and any outcry that came.  They used corruption even in this incident of release date.  MO  When did the judge do the "review"?

 "The review of the suspect’s detention was planned by the judge for September 4th, 2005 and date has been public knowledge since July, 2005"........"three suspects in the disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway were released from police custody in Aruba on September 3, 2005."

YES!!  I remember THIS as if it was YESTERDAY!!  It took me about a week to pick my JAW up off the Floor!!

I didn't really need any more "data" to know the DECK WAS STACKED against the Holloways and FOR the VD Sloots/J2K...BUT...if I HAD needed more "data", this would have been IT!!

CORRECTAMUNDO.

[Edward]

Above from BFN

[caesu]

PG Pietersz: Justice Minister (Croes) should stay silent about 'Holloway'

16 Jan, 2009, 14:24 (GMT -04:00)

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_51581.php

this is a very interesting article about the Landsrecherche investigation with possible cooperation from the US and Dutch Rijksrecherche.

full English translation will appear on the Amigoe site tomorrow, if not i will attempt to translate, but it is difficult stuff and i don't want to get it wrong.

[klaasend]

Caesu - I think this is the same article

http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/277738/Minister-Aruba-moet-zwijgen-over-Holloway-zaak.html

[caesu]

Caesu - I think this is the same article

http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/277738/Minister-Aruba-moet-zwijgen-over-Holloway-zaak.html

yes, that seems a ANP article with a little less information.
http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/1900978/minister-aruba-moet-zwijgen-over-holloway-zaak-.html

it is interesting because it mentions involvement of the Rijksrecherche (this was a demand by Brinkman).
also it mentions that Karin Janssen might have to answer questions.

[klaasend]

Caesu - Thanks!  Please let us know if you see anything else on this. 

[truthseeker2]

Caesu,

Thanks for posting the articles.  It is good to see that Janssen's name is being mentioned.  I am anxious to see an English version of the longer article to see if they allude to a cooperative joint investigation of the 'investigation' that could include some U. S. involvement.

[Tamikosmom]

BETH TWITTY: It was a PR dream for the Dutch government to take advantage of such a catastrophic event (Katrina) in the United States in order to release these suspects.
At Large w/Geraldo Rivera - September 12, 2005


1.  08/29/05 - While Joran is still detained ... Deepak and Satish are rearrested.
2.  09/01/05 - Judge rules that Joran is held for another 30 days.
3.  09/01/05 - Judge reverses the ruling.
4.  09/04/05 - Judge rules that Joran, Deepk and Satish are to be released with restrictions.
5.  09/17/05 - A panel of judges rules that restrictions are to be lifted.

+++++++++++++++++

'The Abrams Report' for August 26
updated 11:37 a.m. PT, Mon., Aug. 29, 2005

Statement from the Prosecutor's Office

In the early morning hours of Friday, the 26th of August, 2005, police once more arrested the brothers, Satish Kalpoe and Deepak Kalpoe. They are in custody based on the same suspicions as before. They are suspected of the primary criminal act of together with other people committing premeditated murder, alternately together with other people murdering somebody, more alternately rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences and even more alternately, raping somebody.

Aside from these suspicions against the two brothers, there are new suspicions, which at this point the prosecutor is not commenting on. To arrest S.K. and D.K. again, there had to be new facts and circumstances. That is the case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9118769/


Kalpoe Brothers Re-Arrested
Tuesday, August 30, 2005

ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, I think it's a big moment, Greta. You know, the prosecution and the investigation is moving very carefully. They don't want to make more mistakes, and they are very careful. So they must have had some real, real evidence and new facts that they felt confident enough to haul them back in.   

... Well, it means that the investigation is moving forward and there's hope that we might go towards a trial because, at first, I was doubting whether we were even facing a trial. It shows that the police have done some good work and apparently gathered evidence, new evidence enough for to bring them back in custody.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167372,00.html


Aruba suspect’s father says son to be released
Elder van der Sloot: Judge rules teen no longer Holloway murder suspect
updated 5:08 p.m. PT, Thurs., Sept. 1, 2005

The judge in the case issued two rulings: In the first, he agreed with prosecutors' request to extend the period of van der Sloot's pretrial detention by 30 more days.

But later Thursday, the judge issued another ruling that sided with the defense — an order to immediately suspend the execution of his earlier pretrial detention order.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9163292/


Aruba Suspects Released From Jail
Sunday, September 04, 2005

SAINT NICOLAAS, Aruba - All three suspects in the disappearance of an Alabama teenager were released from jail Saturday in a setback for the prosecution and the biggest blow yet to Natalee Holloway’s family.

Joran van der Sloot, an 18-year-old Dutchman, and two Surinamese brothers, Satish Kalpoe, 18 and Deepak Kalpoe, 21, were released on condition they remain in Dutch territory and be available to police for questioning.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168442,00.html


Aruba court lifts curbs on three suspects in missing teen case
Updated: Sep 17, 2005 12:52 AM PDT

An Aruban court has ruled that three suspects in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway can remain free without conditions.

Wednesday's ruling overturned an earlier decision that restricted the suspects' travel and required them to remain available to investigators. The appeals court said there was a --quote-- "lack of sufficient grounds and serious suspicions" to keep the restrictions on the three men. Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers -- Deepak and Satish Kalpoe -- are suspects in the May 30 disappearance of the Alabama teen. They were released from jail on September 3rd on the condition they remain available for questioning.

http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3857796&nav=0RdEeaxB

[jen3560]

caesu and klaas,

thank you very much for that information!

Encouraging news, including that Janssen would be expected to answer some questions.