Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09 - 1/18/09

[2NJSons_Mom]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

And that's the nice way to say it, Truthseeker2.   

[KYcat]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

That's not what they say where I am from......LOL

"Opinions are like a$$holes..........everybody has one."

 

[Tamikosmom]

<snipped>

I believe there are many sides to any coin...

<snipped>

Whiskeygirl ... there are only two sides to a coin.  Either you believe Kyle Kingman's own words or ... you believe Kyle Kingman is a liar.

Which is it?

Respectfully, Janet

[Blue Moon]

I found the discussion on the sale of the Valero refinery--it was in November 2007 (just before the ship sailed to Aruba). That is interesting to me:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2305.msg297979#msg297979

    
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #688 11/2 -
« Reply #883 on: November 12, 2007, 11:39:36 AM »
   
Quote from: Anna on November 12, 2007, 11:36:47 AM
Quote from: ldstlou on November 12, 2007, 11:19:56 AM
Quote from: Anna on November 12, 2007, 10:27:25 AM
Quote from: ldstlou on November 12, 2007, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: Anna on November 12, 2007, 09:53:58 AM
I wonder if we wrote to Valero in El Paso, TX, state where Tim Miller is very respected and asked them to close the refinery and let it sit idle and just take the tax write off until they can sell it if that would have any effect on them.

That might apply as much pressure as the boycott.  They are obviously wanting to get rid of it for a reason and I suspect it is not profitable or they would be keeping it.  47% pay hike is pretty large.

.

I think the problem is Oduber? says aruba is not getting any taxes on the earnings for 10 years, am I remembering that correctly I bet they would get a bundle in taxes over the sale of the refinery though!! I think the government is once again looking for a way to rape the island to put $$ in their pockets.
What bother me is, if the government is not making money via taxes on the refinery...the only people who would be hurt by shutting it down would be those who work there for a living...I can't see the sense or the justice in that. I wonder how many people they employ? I bet the MEP would like the sale of the refinery, so they can get their piece!!


I don't think they would get much from the sale of the refinery since it belongs to Valero.  They did give tax exemptions for them to come to Aruba but those are going to run out soon.  I think 2011 is the date given.

Valero will sell it for sure by then but sitting idle would effect the economy the same as a boycott.  I much prefer to see that investment in U.S. refineries giving jobs to Americans from American investment than giving jobs to Arubans so many of whom dislike Americans so much in the first place.

I would like to see American dollars providing jobs for Americans first rather than Arubans who make our citizens disappear and don't give a flip about it.

In fact, I'd like to see all American investment pulled out of there before Hugo takes over and nationalizes it if that's what he has in mind.

Or ODUBER nationalizes it.  I would not want to be holding anything to do with oil anywhere in that region as Chavez has already set the example just taking oil related industry for himself and his corrupt government.

JMO

.

oops..I got booted!! lol

I guess I have not researched the refinery at all. So it is American owned? I had no idea. So why does aruba and oduber care whether it is making a profit or not??!! If it is exempt from taxes until 2011 and aruba doesn't get a piece of the profits, why the big deal about profits being down? Something is up!! Oduber would not stick his big nose into it unless he was looking for financial gains. I wonder if they would get a piece of the capital gains if it is sold? they must get something out of a sale or they wouldn't be complaining about the loss of profits.


I don't know but suspect that Valero will want to unload that place long before the tax exempt status runs out.  This is commonly done to lure new businesses to come to a place.  Alabama gave tax exemption to a car manufacturing plant so it would locate here, creating jobs, etc. on which the government does receive taxes so I suspect it is in that vein that the tax revenues are down the income tax and money from spending their paychecks that he may mean.  They also may get a small tax per gallon or barrel of oil processed there.

I'd like to see all those Americans who have invested money in Aruba bring that money home and rebuild our own Gulf Coast from Katrina.

Just as an idea of the grandiose mindset of some Arubans, one posted once on the Front Page that Aruba processed some huge percentage of oil for the U.S.  They have that exactly backward.  A huge amount of the oil the process goes to the U.S. and it is evidently lost on them what a drop in the bucket Aruba refines as Katrina wiped out 35 refineries.  They are but one.  But note how they exaggerate their own importance in the big picture.  We would not even notice if that refinery were open or closed in our total oil supply.  They certainly would if we refused to buy oil refined there, being is major customer.

But I seriously doubt the average Aruban realizes that and goes about thinking they are processing most of our oil and are totally vital to our survival instead of the other way around.  Perhaps this explains some of their cockiness and rudeness to Americans.

Bring all American investment dollars home and rebuild the resort areas in our own Gulf Coast and provide jobs for Americans first.

What may have been profitable in the past may not be so in the future given Aruban fondness for Chavez and other Latin American despots.  Let them buy it and try to run it without power, strikes and all the headaches.  It is one of Valero's least desirable locations which surely means low profit, high cost of operation and many oil companies have had their operations seized by governments and nationalized into government ownership.  Oduber acts like a dictator and might try the same sort of thing.

American dollars should be investing in America not corrupt little islands that spit in our faces.

JMO
.



Looks like they are already bailing!!!!

I found this article;

Nov 07, 2007

Valero Puts Aruba Refinery Up for Grabs; Q3 Net Income Falls 21%


Joanna Franco
Editor

San Antonio-based Valero Energy yesterday announced that its Aruba refinery is up for possible sale, while net income for the third quarter of 2007 tumbled 21% compared to the third quarter of 2006.


Net income for the third quarter of 2007, which ended Sept. 30, was $1.3 billion, compared to 2006’s third quarter net income of $1.6 billion. However, net income for the first nine months of 2007 was $4.7 billion, a 7% increase from $4.3 billion during the same period a year ago.


Valero executives blamed an increase in feedstock costs and the seasonal drop in gasoline as partly contributing to the reduced margins.


To read the rest of this article from the newsletter World Refining & Fuels Today, or to purchase a single article or request a trial subscription, please contact Karen Wilson at kwilson@hartenergy.com or 1-703-891-4803.

[texasmom]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

And that's the nice way to say it, Truthseeker2.   

I thought so too!  

[Blue Moon]

bastibro or Johan555,

Can you back up your negative posts toward Kermit with something that is worthy of thinking about?   

Yes! I think its time for her to stop bashing Kyle the whole time.
Kyle has chose to not defend himself here at SM and thats his right.
Everything here seems to be about the Kyle and the Persistence issue, thats what irritates me.
I`m convinced this will lead to . . nothing!
I`m sorry, that`s my opinion

Kyle planted his ass at Chat and Grumble with a few other former SM posters.  I guess it is ok for him to discuss it over there.

We understand your opinion and how this might frustrate you and this is why I say skip the posts.  We cannot be forced not to discuss a subject just because someone doesn't agree with it.  There are other people who think otherwise.

Just how many boards has Kyle been on spouting his garbage?

1.  Blogs for Natalee (members only)
2.  Scaredmonkeys (open for all to read)
3.  Refugeesunleashed (open for all to read)
4.  BringNataleeHome (members only)
5.  Freebirds (members only - invite only)
6.  ChatnGrumble (members only - invite only)

And that's just the ones I am 100% positive of. 

Sounds like Kyle was working for AHATA.  Bet he was told to keep the blogs in line.  If so he failed.

[hotping]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

That's not what they say where I am from......LOL

"Opinions are like a$$holes..........everybody has one."

 

KYCat....That's the way I've always heard it in My neck of the woods....

[texasmom]

bastibro or Johan555,

Can you back up your negative posts toward Kermit with something that is worthy of thinking about?   

Yes! I think its time for her to stop bashing Kyle the whole time.
Kyle has chose to not defend himself here at SM and thats his right.
Everything here seems to be about the Kyle and the Persistence issue, thats what irritates me.
I`m convinced this will lead to . . nothing!
I`m sorry, that`s my opinion

Kyle planted his ass at Chat and Grumble with a few other former SM posters.  I guess it is ok for him to discuss it over there.

We understand your opinion and how this might frustrate you and this is why I say skip the posts.  We cannot be forced not to discuss a subject just because someone doesn't agree with it.  There are other people who think otherwise.

Just how many boards has Kyle been on spouting his garbage?

1.  Blogs for Natalee (members only)
2.  Scaredmonkeys (open for all to read)
3.  Refugeesunleashed (open for all to read)
4.  BringNataleeHome (members only)
5.  Freebirds (members only - invite only)
6.  ChatnGrumble (members only - invite only)

And that's just the ones I am 100% positive of. 

Sounds like Kyle was working for AHATA.  Bet he was told to keep the blogs in line.  If so he failed.

Nothing would really surprise me at this point.  And it has been stated that on the fundraising effort...AHATA was working on raising a large sum for the search.  Search for what is the question I have now?  Don't think it was about Natalee. 

  

[2NJSons_Mom]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

That's not what they say where I am from......LOL

"Opinions are like a$$holes..........everybody has one."

 

KYCat....That's the way I've always heard it in My neck of the woods....

Here, too, but that's why I told Truthseeker2 it's the nice way to say it....and there is always a nicer way to say something. 

[truthseeker2]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

That's not what they say where I am from......LOL

"Opinions are like a$$holes..........everybody has one."

 

LOL.  I was trying to keep it 'family oriented'.

[texasmom]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

That's not what they say where I am from......LOL

"Opinions are like a$$holes..........everybody has one."

 

Yep, I've heard that one too...   

[Anna]

I found the discussion on the sale of the Valero refinery--it was in November 2007 (just before the ship sailed to Aruba). That is interesting to me:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2305.msg297979#msg297979

    
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #688 11/2 -
« Reply #883 on: November 12, 2007, 11:39:36 AM »
   
Quote from: Anna on November 12, 2007, 11:36:47 AM
Quote from: ldstlou on November 12, 2007, 11:19:56 AM
Quote from: Anna on November 12, 2007, 10:27:25 AM
Quote from: ldstlou on November 12, 2007, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: Anna on November 12, 2007, 09:53:58 AM
I wonder if we wrote to Valero in El Paso, TX, state where Tim Miller is very respected and asked them to close the refinery and let it sit idle and just take the tax write off until they can sell it if that would have any effect on them.

That might apply as much pressure as the boycott.  They are obviously wanting to get rid of it for a reason and I suspect it is not profitable or they would be keeping it.  47% pay hike is pretty large.

.

I think the problem is Oduber? says aruba is not getting any taxes on the earnings for 10 years, am I remembering that correctly I bet they would get a bundle in taxes over the sale of the refinery though!! I think the government is once again looking for a way to rape the island to put $$ in their pockets.
What bother me is, if the government is not making money via taxes on the refinery...the only people who would be hurt by shutting it down would be those who work there for a living...I can't see the sense or the justice in that. I wonder how many people they employ? I bet the MEP would like the sale of the refinery, so they can get their piece!!


I don't think they would get much from the sale of the refinery since it belongs to Valero.  They did give tax exemptions for them to come to Aruba but those are going to run out soon.  I think 2011 is the date given.

Valero will sell it for sure by then but sitting idle would effect the economy the same as a boycott.  I much prefer to see that investment in U.S. refineries giving jobs to Americans from American investment than giving jobs to Arubans so many of whom dislike Americans so much in the first place.

I would like to see American dollars providing jobs for Americans first rather than Arubans who make our citizens disappear and don't give a flip about it.

In fact, I'd like to see all American investment pulled out of there before Hugo takes over and nationalizes it if that's what he has in mind.

Or ODUBER nationalizes it.  I would not want to be holding anything to do with oil anywhere in that region as Chavez has already set the example just taking oil related industry for himself and his corrupt government.

JMO

.

oops..I got booted!! lol

I guess I have not researched the refinery at all. So it is American owned? I had no idea. So why does aruba and oduber care whether it is making a profit or not??!! If it is exempt from taxes until 2011 and aruba doesn't get a piece of the profits, why the big deal about profits being down? Something is up!! Oduber would not stick his big nose into it unless he was looking for financial gains. I wonder if they would get a piece of the capital gains if it is sold? they must get something out of a sale or they wouldn't be complaining about the loss of profits.


I don't know but suspect that Valero will want to unload that place long before the tax exempt status runs out.  This is commonly done to lure new businesses to come to a place.  Alabama gave tax exemption to a car manufacturing plant so it would locate here, creating jobs, etc. on which the government does receive taxes so I suspect it is in that vein that the tax revenues are down the income tax and money from spending their paychecks that he may mean.  They also may get a small tax per gallon or barrel of oil processed there.

I'd like to see all those Americans who have invested money in Aruba bring that money home and rebuild our own Gulf Coast from Katrina.

Just as an idea of the grandiose mindset of some Arubans, one posted once on the Front Page that Aruba processed some huge percentage of oil for the U.S.  They have that exactly backward.  A huge amount of the oil the process goes to the U.S. and it is evidently lost on them what a drop in the bucket Aruba refines as Katrina wiped out 35 refineries.  They are but one.  But note how they exaggerate their own importance in the big picture.  We would not even notice if that refinery were open or closed in our total oil supply.  They certainly would if we refused to buy oil refined there, being is major customer.

But I seriously doubt the average Aruban realizes that and goes about thinking they are processing most of our oil and are totally vital to our survival instead of the other way around.  Perhaps this explains some of their cockiness and rudeness to Americans.

Bring all American investment dollars home and rebuild the resort areas in our own Gulf Coast and provide jobs for Americans first.

What may have been profitable in the past may not be so in the future given Aruban fondness for Chavez and other Latin American despots.  Let them buy it and try to run it without power, strikes and all the headaches.  It is one of Valero's least desirable locations which surely means low profit, high cost of operation and many oil companies have had their operations seized by governments and nationalized into government ownership.  Oduber acts like a dictator and might try the same sort of thing.

American dollars should be investing in America not corrupt little islands that spit in our faces.

JMO
.



Looks like they are already bailing!!!!

I found this article;

Nov 07, 2007

Valero Puts Aruba Refinery Up for Grabs; Q3 Net Income Falls 21%


Joanna Franco
Editor

San Antonio-based Valero Energy yesterday announced that its Aruba refinery is up for possible sale, while net income for the third quarter of 2007 tumbled 21% compared to the third quarter of 2006.


Net income for the third quarter of 2007, which ended Sept. 30, was $1.3 billion, compared to 2006’s third quarter net income of $1.6 billion. However, net income for the first nine months of 2007 was $4.7 billion, a 7% increase from $4.3 billion during the same period a year ago.


Valero executives blamed an increase in feedstock costs and the seasonal drop in gasoline as partly contributing to the reduced margins.


To read the rest of this article from the newsletter World Refining & Fuels Today, or to purchase a single article or request a trial subscription, please contact Karen Wilson at kwilson@hartenergy.com or 1-703-891-4803.

I agree completely with this poster Anna.  She seems very wise.   

Divest U.S.  $ in places like Aruba now more than ever.

Bring all U.S. $ home where it is needed especially at this time.


But all of this oil is very interesting to say the least.  I believe a government company from Brazil ended up buying it, didn't they?

Again, S. American connection.


.

[hotping]

WhiskeyGirl,

All I know abou opinions is what we have always said around my little part of the world:

"Opinions are like noses....everybody has one."

That's not what they say where I am from......LOL

"Opinions are like a$$holes..........everybody has one."

 

LOL.  I was trying to keep it 'family oriented'.

Truthseeker2...You did Good! 

[truthseeker2]

Thanks, hotping.

[Blue Moon]

I agree that Anna is one smart Monkey. 

I find it interesting that the sale/problems were around the same time as the ship making it's trip.  Also the South American connection.

[Tamikosmom]

I believe there are many sides to any coin...

I also recall reading an email Kermit posted from Kyle, indicating that some of Kyles posts may have been taken out of context.  Since I was not involved in the secret forum, I don't know what the actual flow of conversation was...

What is an 'opinion'?  Educated guess?  Uneducated guess?  Best guess?  100% accurate 100% of the time?

jmho

If i;m readin this right.You believe Kermit has taken some of Kyle's words out of context?Correct me if i'm wrong.

Hey ... th Natalee's Freebirds' would not be in contact with Beth Holloway in regards to Kyle Kingman's own words if those words could not be backed up in a factual way ... backed up through an IP number.

Janet

++++++


klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

Please feel free (if you'd like) to post this at your board.
 
During the journey of the Persistence to Aruba, Kyle reached out and emailed with us.  During that time, one of the questions posed to him was regarding protocol if/when Natalee's remains were found.
 
Kyle's response was that he was unsure, but felt that would be settled before the search began.
 
The cautions were given to him about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba's law enforcement, prosecutor's office, and its judiciary.
 
Contact with Kyle continued throughout the duration of the search by the Persistence.
 
Once back home, Kyle asked us for our help.  He was very concerned about the activities that transpired during their search - specifically surrounding the find of the fishing cage and its contents.  Kyle wanted our help in presenting this information in a factual way, to then be given to Natalee's family. 
 
This was March 18, 2008.  At that time, Kyle assured us he had just recently sent the images from the Dec 30th and Jan 7th dives to the FBI, but had never received a response from them.
 
We later found that to be false.
 
Also at that time, Beth's brother saw the images Kyle had shared with us - but none of the detail he shared later.

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage.  Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.
 
We later found out that never happened.

At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.
 
This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.
 
Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.

At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.
 
The next step was to publish this information at our blog.
 
One of our members felt we were betraying Kyle in doing so, contacted him, and he re-surfaced at our site with threats of litigation against us - stating this was his "intellectual property" and we could not use it.
 
That of course concerned us greatly - as none of us could afford to be sued.
 
He also stated at that time, Luis Shaefer had just recently sold the rights of the video of these images to a broadcast company for the purposes of a documentary.
 
We contacted legal counsel and were advised to keep our distance from any Persistence crew member, in the face of potential obstruction/accessory charges.
 
At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.
 
Kyle did tell us human remains were found in that fish cage.
 
Kyle did tell us about John Silvetti's intent to open an office on the island of Aruba, to enable him ease in conducting business in South America, and Aruba.
 
Kyle also told us of John's absolute refusal to give that fish cage and its contents any credence - before even it was inspected on Jan 7th.
 
Kyle told us in no uncertain terms that Tim Miller and Dateline were abruptly removed from the Persistence on Dec 30, resulting in only Persistence crew being aboard between that date and the Jan 7 dive of the Arubans.
 
Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.
 
Regards,
 
Former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator

Natalee and her family deserve justice - and we will not let up until they have it!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349

[Anna]

Tim Miller was just on Dana but I didn't hear him say anything about Natalee.  Just Caylee investigation.

[hotping]

Thanks, hotping.

YW! 

[SuzieQ]

I thought Kyle didn't want the latest pictures out there. What was all the fuss about Kermit bringing them to SM?  Has anyone seen Hotshot's site lately?

[Blue Moon]

I thought Kyle didn't want the latest pictures out there. What was all the fuss about Kermit bringing them to SM?  Has anyone seen Hotshot's site lately?

I haven't seen Hotshots site lately?  Do you have a link?