Natalee Case Discussion #794 1/18/09 - 1/23/09

[jen3560]

A lot of people appear to "go native" when they go to Aruba, both American and Dutch people.  They seem to lose touch with reality and take on the local mindset, etc.  Become completely bonkers in some case but think of all the people who underwent a personality change before our very eyes.  Hans Mos comes to mind first.  I really thought he was going to do something.  Pfffft!

Must be some sort of island fever that overtakes them or something.  Our Dept of State says one in four uses cocaine.  Who knows.

But many seem to subscribe to that us against them/the world/reality mentality once there.

Sort of strange to me.  Or maybe they were just crackpots to begin with and that is why they found such a place attractive?  Dunno. . . .



.

   That's the one I'm going with!

[Tamikosmom]

KOEN GOTTENBOS

CORRUPTION IN PARADISE - DAVE HOLLOWAY

Page 118 - Sometime in early July 2005, Robin and I saw Deputy Police Comissioner Gerold Dompig's son and another young man who appeared to have similar descriptive features of Steve Croes, the Tattoo party boat disc jockey who had been arrested and released, trying to pick up a girl in the Holiday Inn lobby hallway and get her to go to Carlos and Charlie's. The girl was offering resistance and trying to distance herself from these two. As the guys were walking by, young Dompig noticed me and immediately discontinued his activity. The other kid realized he was getting nowhere with the girl and started in on another set of women. I walked up to Dompig, and he seemed a little embarrassed that we had witnessed his actions. He then started talking about the case, and during this conversation he mentioned that he had heard that Paulus van der Sloot had borrowed a friend's boat on either the night of Natalee's disappearance or the next day and that he was allegedly involved with Natalee's murder. That brought to mind one of Joran's statements. He referred to a friend by the name of Koen Gottenbos. Apparently, this friend's father owned a boat. The message was that this boat was used to take Natalee out to sea. Another boat that was also mentioned by him was the Pair A Dice, which is a local boat from Aruba.

Page 181 - Art and I talked to Ms. Flanagan about all the red flags that we were seeing and that we thought Koen, Joran, and Deepak took Natalee out in the boat. She agreed with that theory. She added that the reason she had left the case was because she thought Koen was lying, and when she asked the police to reinterview him, they refused. We told her that we were going to talk to the prime minister the next day to lay it all out.

Page 177 - After Dompig heard we had found the boat, he indicated that he was going to bring Koen in for questioning in a day or so. I told him that if they interviewed Koen, they might solve the case.

Page 181 - She added that the reason she had left the case was because she though Koen was lying, and when she asked the police to reinterview him, they refused.

Page 182 - I asked Dompig to do the interview of Koen instead of having Jacobs do it. I became concerned because he said he would have to discuss it with Jacobs first. Several weeks later, I heard that Koens father had been interviewed, but Koen had not been questioned yet.

++++++++

Hope for the Holloways?
Thursday, November 17, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: And are you satisfied that this assistant prosecutor was as candid as could be with you?

DAVE HOLLOWAY: She was very candid. And in fact, I made sure that the prime minister understood our position. You know, I had been holding off on this boycott as long as I could, and I told him, I said, you know, The big wave is coming, and if you guys are not going to listen, I can't help you anymore.

Well, I left the prime minister's office. I even gave them the name of the witness that they needed to interview. And I said, you know, If you don't do anything about it, I can't help you anymore.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175925,00.html


'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for December 1
updated 7:37 a.m. PT, Fri., Dec. 2, 2005

ART WOOD: ... Dave Holloway and I begged the police down there to bring him Coon in and question him. And they haven't done it yet. And he lied the first time that he talked to the police. To solve these cases, just follow the lies, Rita.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/


SANDER GOTTENBOS
Witness Statement
June 17, 2005

On your question if I had contact with Joran on May 29, 2005, I tell you the following;
 
I had telephone contact with Joran on May 29, 2005, this was around 11.00.

On your question about how the conversation went, I will tell you the following;
 
The conversation went that I asked him if he wanted to go out on my fathers boat.

He said that he could not go because he was going to play poker at the Holiday Inn. There is tournament each Sunday in aforementioned hotel and Joran participates almost each week in that tournament.

On your question what kind of boat my father has, I will explain to you the following:
It is a speedboat, of the make "Sea Pro".

On your question if Joran had been on our boat before, I will explain to you the following:
Joran has never been on our boat and has also never with our dangers. (?)

[jen3560]

Good afternoon, Monkeys,

Michael Dompig told Dave that PAULUS took out the Gottenbos boat on the Monday of Natalee's disappearance.  It is in Dave's book but I don't have the exact page at hand.

Just FYI.

Your memory is correct, Anna.

From Dave's book:

I walked up to Dompig, and he seemed a little embarrassed

that we had witnessed his actions.  He then started talking about the

case, and during this conversation he mentioned that he had

heard that Paulus Van der Sloot had borrowed a friend's boat

on either the night of Natalie's disappearance or the next day and

that he was allegedly involved with Natalie's murder.   That brought

to mind one of Jurons statements.  He had referred to a friend

by the name of Koen Gottenbos.  Apparently, this friend's father

owned a boat.  The message was that this boat was used to take

Natalie out to sea.  Another boat that was also mentioned by him

was the Pair a Dice,, which is a local boat from Aruba

Aruba by Dave Holloway - pages 118 and 119
-----------------

Art and I talked to Ms. Flanagan about all of the red flags
that we were seeing and that we thought Koen, Juran, and Deepak
took Natalie out in the boat.  She agreed with that theory.
She added that the reason she had left the case was because she thought
Koen was lying, and when she asked the police to re-interview him,
they refused.

Dave Holloway    Aruba   page 181

[jen3560]

   Janet!!!

Your memory and archives are fabulous!

[Blonde]

Good afternoon, Monkeys,

Michael Dompig told Dave that PAULUS took out the Gottenbos boat on the Monday of Natalee's disappearance.  It is in Dave's book but I don't have the exact page at hand.

Just FYI.

KOEN GOTTENBOS

In October, 2005 Aruban authorities approached Dave Holloway and informed him that Koen Gottenbos could possibly be the key to solving the case. Nevertheless, Koen was never interrogated again in spite of the promises of Gerold Dompig. The assistant prosecutor, Amalin Flanegin, quit because she believed that Koen lied when he was interrogated in the initial stages of the investigation, and Dompig refused bring him in again. A meeting that took place between Koen's father and the investigators could possibly reveal an explanation

 MICHAEL DOMPIG

Michael Dompig, son of Gerold Dompig, was detained regarding information he claimed to have that pertained to Geoffrey van Cromvoirt involvement with Natalee Holloway. Michael also made Dave Holloway aware of possible activity on the Gottenbos boat at the time Natalee disappeared.

[texasmom]

Excellent.   We've had quite a few boats over the years, and I thought it would fit.  It was the weight that I wondered about 2 or 3 men being able to lift up on the boat with a lifeless body in it.  There's one thing about it.  There is no way they pulled this off without leaving evidence on that boat.  No way at all.  Whether it be scratches in the paint / fiberglass / metal, or decomposing body.

Now weren't we told that Julia bought the boat?  I wonder if that is true. Am I remembering that right?

I don't think the weight would have been an issue - provided there was more than one person on the boat (which I believe there was)

OE posted here:
 #682 on: March 18, 2008, 09:28:45 AM I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigginghttp://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366260#msg366260
-------------

And it was Rosalie Klein aka scubajap and her (now) ex husband who bought the boat from the Gottenbos.

I agree with you - there would have been something on that boat to indicate its use in this disposal.  Natalee's family could never ascertain whether or not it was searched - and from the case file documents we've seen, there was no forensic testing of it.

jen,
If you can say, was a determination ever made on where the trap most likely came from?  TIA

[texasmom]

  Janet!!!

Your memory and archives are fabulous!

I agree!   

[Tamikosmom]

  Janet!!!

Your memory and archives are fabulous!

My memory is going.

I put Brandi ... our 15 year old Golden Retriever ... out to do her thing last night (10:00 PM) and ... at 1:00 AM I woke up and suddenly remembered.   BRANDI!!!!  I had forgot to call her in.

 

I am fortunate that Brandi loves me unconditionally.

Janet

[jen3560]

tx mom,

I think that Kyle was being fed some bad information at that point.  That is just my personal opinion though.

And no - he never did share with us who this "one person" might have been - or if he ever received any further information about it.

If I look at the progression of the missing fish cage, combined with what Kyle shared with us, and what Hodges found out - I can see a pattern.

First - the fish cage was stolen, but not reported to ALE (fear?) and had been there since March 2005, and was gone the day of May 30/May 31.

Then (3 years later)- the fish cage was never stolen, the fisherman had it at his house (fear and a payoff?)

Sizing.....

When it hit the media that a fish cage had been stolen - it was noted to be a "large" cage.

By the time Hodges and the Persistence arrived, it had gone from a "large" cage to something roughly 5'x4'.

Yet - if you look at the graphic overlay that was done of the dimensions of the cage found, inside the cut away brush at the fisherman's huts where the cage had sat from March thru the end of May - it would have fit there perfectly.

[texasmom]

tx mom,

I think that Kyle was being fed some bad information at that point.  That is just my personal opinion though.

And no - he never did share with us who this "one person" might have been - or if he ever received any further information about it.

If I look at the progression of the missing fish cage, combined with what Kyle shared with us, and what Hodges found out - I can see a pattern.

First - the fish cage was stolen, but not reported to ALE (fear?) and had been there since March 2005, and was gone the day of May 30/May 31.

Then (3 years later)- the fish cage was never stolen, the fisherman had it at his house (fear and a payoff?)

Sizing.....

When it hit the media that a fish cage had been stolen - it was noted to be a "large" cage.

By the time Hodges and the Persistence arrived, it had gone from a "large" cage to something roughly 5'x4'.

Yet - if you look at the graphic overlay that was done of the dimensions of the cage found, inside the cut away brush at the fisherman's huts where the cage had sat from March thru the end of May - it would have fit there perfectly.

Thanks jen!   

[Tamikosmom]

THE DIMENSIONS

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle:  The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360072;topicseen#msg360072


Kyle:  The trap in question is significantly larger than Dr. Hodges reported dimensions from the fishermen huts owner.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg358604;topicseen#msg358604

[hotping]

Good Afternoon Monkeys!

Just wondering...Has anyone heard anything more about where Joran is suppose to be?...Laos...Thailand....Netherlands...???

[snoopy]

Howdy hotping.  I haven't heard where Joran is.  I think we heard last week that he was in The Netherlands, but I don't know if that was confirmed. 

[WhiskeyGirl]

I wonder if Joran is in Den Dolder?  I hope I spelled that right.  That seems to be the one place he's supposed to be over time, and perhaps he really went.

Alternatively, follow the money.  Where would JVDS go for easy money?  What after Thailand?  Australia?  U.S.?  Fiji?

[Tamikosmom]

KYLE KINGMAN - EMAIL TO KERMIT

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 -
« Reply #540 on: December 19, 2008, 06:15:18 PM »

Kyle sent me this today

Kermit,
 
You and the others agreed to a statement of confidentiality and nondisclosure at FB.  Before I posted any information, I posted a copyright notice at the very start which disallowed ANY and ALL of my posts, intellectual property, or pictures to leave the spot they were posted.  Everyone, including yourself, acknowledged this affirmatively. A lawyer said that ownership of that posted material cannot be transferred by a general claim of copyright such as a claim made on the front page of a website, or even by verbal consent. Written agreement, meaning a signed agreement, is required for the post to be owned by the site owner. Without a signed agreement, the poster owns the post. I did not give you permission, which I have stated many times when you were in violation. While the rest agreed, you violated this legal agreement repeatedly. You have taken many of my posts, snipped what you wanted to put them into your context, and then shared them in a public forum.  The "public domain" notion only applies where someone has copyright ownership over the work in the first case and that ownership has lapsed. In that case, all posts can be freely reproduced by anyone, anywhere, without violating copyright law. However, this is clearly not the case.
 
I will state this with absolute clarity so there is no misunderstanding:
I have confirmed with the FBI on multiple instances that they have had possession of the ROV videos since very early on. I personally didn't send the ROV footage to them because another project lead had already at the first opportunity while we were still in Aruba. I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.  I also got confirmation back in February by Tim Trahan who was in constant contact with Beth during the search that she indeed had all the information including the statements and has seen the ROV videos. I personally confirmed all of this with the senior FBI agent in charge of the investigation as well as given him my personal account of all that I witnessed and knew. They have this on record.  Birmingham is not the office in charge.
 
The information you have been spreading is not only inaccurate and a violation of a non-disclosure, it is slanderous and spreading misinformation. The damage it has done to my professional relationship with J. Silvetti is incalculable which has a direct effect on my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter named after Natalee.
 
I have neither publicly responded to your provocative antics, or retaliated with personal attacks in response to yours. I also have never threatened you as you publicly claimed.
 
I recently asked the senior FBI agent in charge how I should handle this situation which you have incited.  I thought his response was terrific. He replied: "Just sit back and keep quiet.  Kermit doesn't matter".
So this is exactly what I've done. I wrote this letter to you as a gesture of courtesy in hopes it would save you from further embarrassment from those who actually know something about this case.  I'm not referring to myself, rather the family and lead investigators who are out legitimately investigating this case in pursuit of justice right to the top.
 
Sincerely,
 Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4246.msg592482;topicseen#msg592482


TAMIKOSMOM - RESPONSE

Kyle ... I understand perfectly why Kermit's postings would have an effect on your personal and professional relationship with John Silvetti.  However ... you are forgetting that the words in those posts submitted by Kermit to SM site are your own.

What I fail to understand is why you would want a personal or professional relationship with someone who is not trustworthy ... somebody who put his own self-interests above those who he is morally and financially accountable to?

Think about it Kyle.  Your own words imply that Natalee Holloway's remains could have been in that trap.  A family who was waiting in American had a right to know.

Kyle ... please answer honestly.  Would you desire a continued personal or professional relationship with John Silvetti if you believed there was a strong possibility that the remains of your beloved was in that trap/cage. 

Sincerely, Janet

++++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle:  I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle:   John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship.

Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days. (05/08/08)

Kyle: He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that. (06/10/08)

[Keepthefaith]

For you klaas!

"It's elementary, my dear Watson.”

[jen3560]

Janet,

I asked Kyle the same question.

But you worded it much more civilly and politely than I did. 

Oh - he never did answer me either......at least not with anything significant that I can remember.

[Tamikosmom]

KYLE KINGMAN - EMAIL TO KERMIT

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 -
« Reply #540 on: December 19, 2008, 06:15:18 PM »

Kyle sent me this today

Kermit,
 
You and the others agreed to a statement of confidentiality and nondisclosure at FB.  Before I posted any information, I posted a copyright notice at the very start which disallowed ANY and ALL of my posts, intellectual property, or pictures to leave the spot they were posted.  Everyone, including yourself, acknowledged this affirmatively. A lawyer said that ownership of that posted material cannot be transferred by a general claim of copyright such as a claim made on the front page of a website, or even by verbal consent. Written agreement, meaning a signed agreement, is required for the post to be owned by the site owner. Without a signed agreement, the poster owns the post. I did not give you permission, which I have stated many times when you were in violation. While the rest agreed, you violated this legal agreement repeatedly. You have taken many of my posts, snipped what you wanted to put them into your context, and then shared them in a public forum.  The "public domain" notion only applies where someone has copyright ownership over the work in the first case and that ownership has lapsed. In that case, all posts can be freely reproduced by anyone, anywhere, without violating copyright law. However, this is clearly not the case.
 
I will state this with absolute clarity so there is no misunderstanding:
I have confirmed with the FBI on multiple instances that they have had possession of the ROV videos since very early on. I personally didn't send the ROV footage to them because another project lead had already at the first opportunity while we were still in Aruba. I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.

I also got confirmation back in February by Tim Trahan who was in constant contact with Beth during the search that she indeed had all the information including the statements and has seen the ROV videos. I personally confirmed all of this with the senior FBI agent in charge of the investigation as well as given him my personal account of all that I witnessed and knew. They have this on record.  Birmingham is not the office in charge.
 
The information you have been spreading is not only inaccurate and a violation of a non-disclosure, it is slanderous and spreading misinformation. The damage it has done to my professional relationship with J. Silvetti is incalculable which has a direct effect on my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter named after Natalee.
 
I have neither publicly responded to your provocative antics, or retaliated with personal attacks in response to yours. I also have never threatened you as you publicly claimed.
 
I recently asked the senior FBI agent in charge how I should handle this situation which you have incited.  I thought his response was terrific. He replied: "Just sit back and keep quiet.  Kermit doesn't matter".
So this is exactly what I've done. I wrote this letter to you as a gesture of courtesy in hopes it would save you from further embarrassment from those who actually know something about this case.  I'm not referring to myself, rather the family and lead investigators who are out legitimately investigating this case in pursuit of justice right to the top.
 
Sincerely,
 Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4246.msg592482;topicseen#msg592482


TAMIKOSMOM - RESPONSE #2

Kyle ... according to your own words in posts to the Natalee's Freebirds' site ... as far as you knew Beth Holloway had never received any info regarding the ROV images and ... your perception of the Persistence undertaking.

Logic dictates you would not have posted accordingly if in February you had confirmation that Beth Holloway was in the know.

Nevertheless ... according to Jen ... Former Natalee's Freebirds' Administrator ... Beth Holloway was uninformed.

Sincerely, Janet

+++++++

IN YOUR OWN WORDS

Kyle:  I havn't spoken to Beth and don't plan to personally.

Kyle:  I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th. Remember, 6 of the pics from the 29th I sent to the FBI ended up on the Internet thanks to the FBI leaking them to Dave and therefore Robin H.

Kyle:  Oh, no one has possession of any footage except Tim Trahan, an archived copy on the Persistence, and myself."

Kyle:  Unless the FBI already knew the Dutch were on site doing a sweep.. I doubt they know it was done, if it were. I did not give the information to the FBI and I'm unaware of anyone relaying the possibility to them. I tried to confirm or disprove the Dutch coast guard having been on site twice but I could do neither.

Kyle:  I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th. Remember, 6 of the pics from the 29th I sent to the FBI ended up on the Internet thanks to the FBI leaking them to Dave and therefore Robin H.

Kyle:  On the contrary, neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge.

Kyle:  None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th.


FORMER NATALEE'S FREEBIRDS' ADMINISTRATOR (JEN)

klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

<snipped>

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.

<snipped>

Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.
 
Regards,
 
Former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator

Natalee and her family deserve justice - and we will not let up until they have it!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349


jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #788 12/31/08 -
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2008, 04:36:13 PM  

After we discovered this information had been withheld from US authorities, we contacted legal counsel, and were advised to keep our distance from Persistence crew members and benefactors - that is when and why Kyle was banned.

That occurred the end of September.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4328.msg605250#msg605250

[Tamikosmom]

Jen ... when was Beth Holloway, FBI and John Kelly informed by the Natalee's Freebirds.

Thanks

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

IN KYLE KINGMAN OWN WORDS

Kyle:  No one else has access or copies of the photos or footage. All fingers point back to me when this leaks.