Natalee Case Discussion #794 1/18/09 - 1/23/09

[billb's daughter]

Since we are coming back around to the use of Koen's dads boat....some posts from mar 08 come to mind....

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Quote from: Bladerunner on March 06, 2008, 08:59:06 PM
The trap still intrigues me. It is possible that the one found could have been the one that was stolen, but based on what we know thus far, it likely did not contain remains related to this case. However, I think its possible it COULD have contained other items of evidence.

Then again, if that is true, one has to ask the question why go through so much trouble to dispose of clothes, shoes, etc., in such a manner.

THe bottom lines is I don't think the cage we are looking for has been found yet.

Quote from: billb on March 06, 2008, 09:23:54 PM
Bladerunner...what you say makes sense, but I can't stop thinking the knife/machete rope, etc and maybe other evidence (tennis shoe(s) any other evidence) may have been hastily disposed of in the trap and taken out that night. Natalee may have also been buried near the fish hut and later moved (landfill, water, incinerated??). I guess in this order: they buried Natalee first, then realized they needed to dispose of evidence-thats where the trap comes into play. They probably wouldn't think to take it too far out that night, thus the 90 ft depth. JMO

Quote from: Dayhiker on March 06, 2008, 09:44:07 PM
I'm liking it. But have to wonder why such a large trap for such a few items. Why not bury them, too? Just playing the devil's advocate here, Billb, anything is possible in this case.

Quote from: billb: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 -
« Reply #597 on: March 06, 2008, 10:20:17 PM »
Burying evidence is also plausible, but I think they were in panic mode when "something bad happened" They buried Natalee in haste, then thought of evidence. The trap was there (and a fishing boat), maybe called for help (koen, K2, SC??) to handle trap. I have heard alot about possible Koen and his boat used for disposal, and that may have been the case. But if Koen's boat was too small, they more than likely use the fishing boat moored, since it was probably better suited to handle the trap. They used the boat to move the trap, then placed it back at its mooring. The purpose of using the trap for the evidence is to distance the evidence from the body. Could have been Paulus idea to do that initially, with Paulus then planning to move her body later, with or without letting the others know of his plan.

Moving forward to what Kermit and the FBs have exposed...it is very likely that Natalee was placed in the cage from the fisherman's hut the second/third night....it would be interesting to know the cage contents wrt whether there were other items missing from the fisherman's hut in the cage. (evidence such as clothes/machette/etc could even have been placed in the cage later by a scuba diver - urine's bothe valentine was a scuba diver) .
If Koen's boat was used, or the fisherman's boat....maybe paulass atm withdrawals paid for fuel for either, and/or payoff for helpers (Geoffrey vc/Steve croes....

Hi billb!  Good to see you.  Thanks for bring the posts forward.  I agree, very likely scenario. 
Now, that the Gottenbos' are here in the states; maybe the FBI will be the ones to get to question them.  I don't believe they were ever subjected to proper questioning in Aruba.

I can always hope! 

TM....
My hope also......I sent an email to our State Department and Condi Rice last Nov hoping for a reply on the comment Rice made after talking with Beth about getting the FBI on the case...no reply 
Not a big bho or hc fan....but if they get involved and get Justice for Natalee....I may become a believer
Red's and Kemit's comments asking us to be patient keeps my hopes up....
One way or the other...there will be Justice for Natalee!!
I stand wit SM (Red, Klaas, the wonderful and dedicated moderators-you know who you are  )  and the green legged frog, with her sidekick Freebirds......
And, I stand with the girl
Kermit.....any of this possible? Did the get  rid of evidence in the cage, then dispose of Natalee in the landfill...then incinerator? Leaving other evidence in the cage? Or do you believe there is human remains (Natalee's) in the cage?
Just wondering...either way...revealing the contents of the cage would be damaging to Aruba/Dutch authorities.....

[billb's daughter]

Since we are coming back around to the use of Koen's dads boat....some posts from mar 08 come to mind....

Posts: 267

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Quote from: Bladerunner on March 06, 2008, 08:59:06 PM
The trap still intrigues me. It is possible that the one found could have been the one that was stolen, but based on what we know thus far, it likely did not contain remains related to this case. However, I think its possible it COULD have contained other items of evidence.

Then again, if that is true, one has to ask the question why go through so much trouble to dispose of clothes, shoes, etc., in such a manner.

THe bottom lines is I don't think the cage we are looking for has been found yet.

Quote from: billb on March 06, 2008, 09:23:54 PM
Bladerunner...what you say makes sense, but I can't stop thinking the knife/machete rope, etc and maybe other evidence (tennis shoe(s) any other evidence) may have been hastily disposed of in the trap and taken out that night. Natalee may have also been buried near the fish hut and later moved (landfill, water, incinerated??). I guess in this order: they buried Natalee first, then realized they needed to dispose of evidence-thats where the trap comes into play. They probably wouldn't think to take it too far out that night, thus the 90 ft depth. JMO

Quote from: Dayhiker on March 06, 2008, 09:44:07 PM
I'm liking it. But have to wonder why such a large trap for such a few items. Why not bury them, too? Just playing the devil's advocate here, Billb, anything is possible in this case.

Quote from: billb: Re: Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 -
« Reply #597 on: March 06, 2008, 10:20:17 PM »
Burying evidence is also plausible, but I think they were in panic mode when "something bad happened" They buried Natalee in haste, then thought of evidence. The trap was there (and a fishing boat), maybe called for help (koen, K2, SC??) to handle trap. I have heard alot about possible Koen and his boat used for disposal, and that may have been the case. But if Koen's boat was too small, they more than likely use the fishing boat moored, since it was probably better suited to handle the trap. They used the boat to move the trap, then placed it back at its mooring. The purpose of using the trap for the evidence is to distance the evidence from the body. Could have been Paulus idea to do that initially, with Paulus then planning to move her body later, with or without letting the others know of his plan.

Moving forward to what Kermit and the FBs have exposed...it is very likely that Natalee was placed in the cage from the fisherman's hut the second/third night....it would be interesting to know the cage contents wrt whether there were other items missing from the fisherman's hut in the cage. (evidence such as clothes/machette/etc could even have been placed in the cage later by a scuba diver - urine's bothe valentine was a scuba diver) .
If Koen's boat was used, or the fisherman's boat....maybe paulass atm withdrawals paid for fuel for either, and/or payoff for helpers (Geoffrey vc/Steve croes....

Hi billb!  Good to see you.  Thanks for bring the posts forward.  I agree, very likely scenario. 
Now, that the Gottenbos' are here in the states; maybe the FBI will be the ones to get to question them.  I don't believe they were ever subjected to proper questioning in Aruba.

I can always hope! 

TM....
My hope also......I sent an email to our State Department and Condi Rice last Nov hoping for a reply on the comment Rice made after talking with Beth about getting the FBI on the case...no reply 
Not a big bho or hc fan....but if they get involved and get Justice for Natalee....I may become a believer
Red's and Kemit's comments asking us to be patient keeps my hopes up....
One way or the other...there will be Justice for Natalee!!
I stand wit SM (Red, Klaas, the wonderful and dedicated moderators-you know who you are  )  and the green legged frog, with her sidekick Freebirds......
And, I stand with the girl
Kermit.....any of this possible? Did the get  rid of evidence in the cage, then dispose of Natalee in the landfill...then incinerator? Leaving other evidence in the cage? Or do you believe there is human remains (Natalee's) in the cage?
Just wondering...either way...revealing the contents of the cage would be damaging to Aruba/Dutch authorities.....

Kermit.....any of this possible? Did the get  rid of evidence in the cage, then dispose of Natalee in the landfill...then incinerator? Leaving other evidence in the cage? Or do you believe there is human remains (Natalee's) in the cage?
Just wondering...either way...revealing the contents of the cage would be damaging to Aruba/Dutch authorities..

[crazybabyborg]

I'm headed for the Monkey Bunkey. I just wanted to echo the sentiments that it's all about Natalee, and ultimately, that's all that matters! Waving to all on my way out!!! Goodnight and God Bless!!

[Lifesong]

Goodnight CBB and 5 guests.

God Bless.

[Buckeye]

translation of Amigoe article as promised, Amigoe didn't publish this article in English:

Justice Minister must stay silent about `Holloway'
16 Jan, 2009, 14:24 (GMT -04:00)


Oranjestad - The recently appointed Procureur-General (PG), Rob Pietersz requested of Justice Minister Rudy Croes to 'for the time being' not make more statements about the Natalee Holloway-case. The highest boss of the Public Prosecution Service told this in a speech to the Aruban Parliament.

A day after minister Croes at the end of last year voiced criticism about the beginning phase of the investigation due to alleged 'cronyism' at the OM Pietersz visited him. 'I heard the next day on the radio what he had said and I went immediately to him to have a talk', said the PG. 'There I made clear what my opinion was: it was unfortunate that he (Croes) has said it. This only stirs things up again and it puts doubts behind the integrity of people who can't defend themselves'.

According to Pietersz minister Croes didn't like it that his phone was red-hot because of the press calling him. 'I said to the minister: refer them to me'.

According to Pietersz he told Croes: "What must be done is the following: there has to be an investigation. Also the minister said it has to be an investigation with the Americans, the Dutch and Arubans involved. I said then: no, that's not what we are going to do". Then the PG said he wanted to deploy the Bureau of Internal Affairs (Landsrecherche). "One mechanisms as a whole". That moreover falls directly under the PG. "That way it will be exempt political interference from anywhere, as there won't be any instruction from someone else".

After Pietersz returned to his office from the conversation with Croes, he rang immediately the head of the Landsrecherche and the Dutch OM. "Because at that moment I knew that at some moment also part of the investigation will take place in the Netherlands. Among other things also the person who was at the time chief public prosecutor (Karin Janssen), who was closely involved, of course has to answer a number of questions". In the Netherlands Pietersz requested through the OM also support from the Rijksrecherche for the part of the investigation in the Netherlands.

The PG also mentioned in the speech the NLAT-treaty (Neutral Legal Assistance Treaty) between the Kingdom and the US. "This has to go on request and with approval of the other parties. I got this approval, therefore at some moment when it is necessary to extend the investigation to the Netherlands a couple of people will go to the Netherlands. Probably also with presence of the Rijksrecherche without them asking questions.

On Aruba Pietersz said the Landsrecherche would start a fact finding mission into the beginning phase of the investigation  in the Holloway-case. "This is no investigation that is joined to a possible criminal offence, because we do not know what happened. We must first know what the facts are. From that investigation it could become clear that there is a 'offence on duty' or a criminal offence, and in that case we will act on that. It is also just as possible that it will become clear from the analysis of fact finding mission that there is nothing wrong". The Landsrecherche has already started with hearing people.

Croes said in the beginning of December that Police Chief Jan van der Straten in 2005 seriously impeded the investigation at the beginning stage. Van der Straten allegedly wanted to help his friend Paul van der Sloot with protecting his son Joran, who was suspected to have been involved with the disappearance of the American.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_51581.php

He said no then included the Arubans and the Dutch...but no Americans on the investigative team.  Now, I know they are not investigating Americans, but it is sad, that once again Aruba wants complete control.  That is what he says??  What is wrong with something being a joint en devour? sheesh..

[Buckeye]

Matt Henry comes home
posted by emaupin on Jan 19, 2009 11:33:19 AM
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Good news about juggler Matt Henry, who was hit by a car in Aruba a couple of weeks ago and was in very bad condition there. He's now back in Orlando and in considerably better shape.

(Contrary to the strange rumors that claimed he was dead. Really. Not true. Really.)

In fact, Matt has been recovering at Orlando Regional Medical Center, where he underwent another surgery to repair his broken arm.

He's been eating pizza and watching football with his father and today is moving to a rehabilitation facility to begin working his way back to good health.

David Lee says Matt will have quite a story to tell in his next Fringe show. Sounds like it. In the meantime, send your good thoughts his way.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_stage_theat/2009/01/matt-henry-come.html

[blah]

When is this investigation of the investigation Brinkman has been calling for supposed to start?  Is this another one of those secret investigations where they say nothing for 6 months and then come back and say they didnt find anything?

[sharon]

(snipped)

Hotshot said: "Speaking about the Freebirds, theres yet another time you all took for granted you knew what was going on when you saw the picture of me and Croes."

The Freebirds did not write about your association with Steve Croes. That was this article.
I SMELL A RAT...COMMENTARY BY MERI

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html


Hotshot said: "Yes, at one point I too was a FreeBird, was asked to go to the meeting in Alabama."

Hotshot, you have never been a part of the Freebirds. EVER! That means NEVER!

Thanks for getting to this first, kerm 

I'm repeating a few of your comments -- I just want to make sure Monkeys see the truth. 


Wasn't there another ?forum? for awhile who tried to use a name similar to ours??

[sharon]

Matt Henry comes home
posted by emaupin on Jan 19, 2009 11:33:19 AM
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Good news about juggler Matt Henry, who was hit by a car in Aruba a couple of weeks ago and was in very bad condition there. He's now back in Orlando and in considerably better shape.

(Contrary to the strange rumors that claimed he was dead. Really. Not true. Really.)

In fact, Matt has been recovering at Orlando Regional Medical Center, where he underwent another surgery to repair his broken arm.

He's been eating pizza and watching football with his father and today is moving to a rehabilitation facility to begin working his way back to good health.

David Lee says Matt will have quite a story to tell in his next Fringe show. Sounds like it. In the meantime, send your good thoughts his way.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_stage_theat/2009/01/matt-henry-come.html

Can we believe ANYTHING that island reports?? 

Thanks Buckeye 

[jen3560]

I have no idea what in the world you are talking about here - but you were never a part of our group.  Not ever.

I don't know you from Adam - and therefore I know you were never issued an invitation to join Natalee's Freebirds.

I am aware there was another message board out there (still is?) with the name "Freebird" in it - so perhaps that is what you are referring to?

For people who are out for the good of other people, I think you should all take a look at the way you have been acting.  Not just the stuff you have been talking about me, but the whole scenario last night was very hurtful, and hateful.  To call one "crazy", in itself is degrading.  Stop bringing up things that happened in the past that degrades people.  You don't know the whole story, you were not there, so don't speak of it as being actual.  You hear it from one person and hold that to being true?  No, there are 3 sides.  Mine, yours, and the truth.  Even if I were to talk about what happened, would you believe me?  "NO".  So why even try, I know it's not worth the time.  But to state some of the other things like my website has "who evers" name in the chat box is just ludicrist.  I had not even been there for the last few weeks, so to think I put "who evers" name in there is just plain silly.  I personally am not here for any of you, I am here for Natalee, to help get to the bottom of things.  If it means going back to do things I needed to do, then so be it.  Don't make fun of it, at least I was doing something.  Yes, I am one of those people who truely do think she was in that trap.  Why are you poking at that?  I never said I didn't think it to be true.  I also believe in CAPS, even though you want to burn him at the stakes.  NO Klaas, I don't want to be the "show", nor do I want to MAKE you believe what I believe.  To be at SM used to be something to strive for to be with others in the know, and help to find Natalee.  Recently, it has become a repeatative source of info about Kyle/Silvetti/Schafer.  Kermit, if you have something to say, SAY IT.  You always have more coming, well SPIT IT OUT!  You all poke fun at that when someone else states something like that, what makes her so different?  People are clinging on to your every word, like your some kind of God, so tell them what you know.  You all (4) quit the Freebirds to come here, do something.  Speaking about the Freebirds, theres yet another time you all took for granted you knew what was going on when you saw the picture of me and Croes.  You didn't even ask of why I was there, just stuck me down from out of no-where. Threw me out!  But Thanks to that I have met one of the finest people I could ever meet, Stephanie Good.  She is still a dear friend to me today.   Dave knew why I was there, thats all that counts.  Beth knew all that happened also, after the fact, and still applauds it.  They needed new faces down there and still do.  I had been talking to some of the perps since day 3.  To get just one piece of info was of the utmost importance.  Did you all take that into consideration?  You talk about how I have the Kalpoes on my site, and how they took over my identity, yes not only did they do that on Zorpia, but one of them did it to me right here on SM one night.  Go ahead and call me "crazy" again.  But they had my name, my sign in, we were both on at the same time, however he was one step ahead of me.  Talking about Venezuela, and chasing the car.  How would I even know anything about that?  It was being talked about as it was happening.  No-one here chose to believe that, and thats fine.  I know what happened, again I don't have to explain.  Yes, at one point I too was a FreeBird, was asked to go to the meeting in Alabama.  I chose not to go.  I chose to stay with SM and do my part here.  Go to the Boycotts, and help where ever I could.  Again don't poke fun at that, I was out there doing something.  The Boston (5) didn't come from No where, and we are the ones who originated them.  No Klaas I don't want to be the first person to come up with things.  It's nice to know that I did though.  Did those week-ends help?  Yes they did.

[jen3560]

Thanks kerm and sharon! 

[jen3560]

Klaas,

You were always an honorary Freebird.  We considered you one of us.  You posting our documents here, and the Youtube's you did of some of them.....not to mention the dedication you have given to Natalee and her family here at SM.........well, we know where your heart is.

[klaasend]

http://www.awe24.com/







come across trahando intensivamente for estrecha lasonan cu merca, end of 2008 leader of faction mr. andin bikker y sr. serge mansur owing to visit washington d.c. for come across cu integrantenan prominente of the faction democrata, y promove the idea for one centro of oncologia for aruba. contactonan valioso on invitacion personal owing to visit the residencia of candidato for governor of the estado of virginia sr. terry mcauliffe http://www.terrymcauliffe.com/home on the night cu ela anuncia in circulo priva his aspiracion for lance his self because; candidato for governor. also owing to sostene combersacionan cu ex candidato for nominacion presidencial democrata sr. dick gephart, y ex senador democratico sr. tom mcmillen. centro of oncologia for aruba more alew owing to rueni also cu representantenan of apco worldwide http://www.apcoworldwide.com/, ex senadornan don riegle y don bonker, for intercambia among another on the idea of pdr for establece cu aid of centronan at merca, one centro of oncologia for aruba for deal patientnan cu cancer, y so help we salubridad publico y concentra on the market of turism medico. much aprecio for aruba have to remarca cu all the personanan influyente cu owing to come across at merca have much aprecio for her island of aruba. leader of pdr owing to haci usage of the oportunidad for regala the personanan here pin of escudo y flag of aruba. economia y bienestar general at previous to lugar the biahe owing to follow for new york caminda owing to atende asamblea of world trade center association for so promove aruba because; centro of comercio for cu latin america y europa. this in cuadro of the idea of pdr cu have to separa the cartera of finansas publico for of esun of economia, for can concentra at atrea comercio internacional via aruba. possible encuentro cu chairman obama in anja 2009 lidernan of pdr is trahando on one biahe breve for encontra cu the chairman electo sr. barack obama. come across

[Blonde]

(snipped)

Hotshot said: "Speaking about the Freebirds, theres yet another time you all took for granted you knew what was going on when you saw the picture of me and Croes."

The Freebirds did not write about your association with Steve Croes. That was this article.
I SMELL A RAT...COMMENTARY BY MERI

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html


Hotshot said: "Yes, at one point I too was a FreeBird, was asked to go to the meeting in Alabama."

Hotshot, you have never been a part of the Freebirds. EVER! That means NEVER!

Thanks for getting to this first, kerm 

I'm repeating a few of your comments -- I just want to make sure Monkeys see the truth. 


Wasn't there another ?forum? for awhile who tried to use a name similar to ours??

Natalee Angels is the team that Hotshot got locked out of.
Because of the picture of her hugging SC's
I think she just made a error saying  it was the Freebirds.IMO
They had a meeting in AL  that we all, Natalee Angels were to meet.
That is when my body in the bag photos were shown. to Beth Art Woods Dave & Robin.
I did not go my Mom was very sick Lisa stood in for Me and she is a wonderful person and we still are very good friends.
I do not know if Natalee Angels are still a team.
I am not in a team.
I am in contact with Beth & Art Woods.

[klaasend]

Klaas,

You were always an honorary Freebird.  We considered you one of us.  You posting our documents here, and the Youtube's you did of some of them.....not to mention the dedication you have given to Natalee and her family here at SM.........well, we know where your heart is.

Jen - thanks.  I'm just shocked when I heard Hothot claim to have been one.  I should have known it wasn't true 

[klaasend]

I was invited to go to that meeting but decided not to go when I discovered some of the people that would be there belonged to RU and now BNH.  Red was also invited to go but declined.  Personally, I believe that meeting was a mistake.

[sharon]

Klaas,

You were always an honorary Freebird.  We considered you one of us.   You posting our documents here, and the Youtube's you did of some of them.....not to mention the dedication you have given to Natalee and her family here at SM.........well, we know where your heart is.

I will VOUCH for that  Mentioned many many times. The honorary Freebird because you do so much to help Natalee -- and you helped us help Natalee. In so many many ways. With no agenda other than 'justice for Natalee'.

Saying we are 'grateful' for you doesn't even begin to scratch the surface 
 
We could not make it official -- which is so ironic in retrospect. 

[jen3560]

Klaas,

You were always an honorary Freebird.  We considered you one of us.  You posting our documents here, and the Youtube's you did of some of them.....not to mention the dedication you have given to Natalee and her family here at SM.........well, we know where your heart is.

Jen - thanks.  I'm just shocked when I heard Hothot claim to have been one.  I should have known it wasn't true 

 

[jen3560]

]


He said no then included the Arubans and the Dutch...but no Americans on the investigative team.  Now, I know they are not investigating Americans, but it is sad, that once again Aruba wants complete control.  That is what he says??  What is wrong with something being a joint en devour? sheesh..

I agree Buckeye - reading that was so disheartening.  I was dearly hoping for American involvement in this investigation.

[crazybabyborg]

How nice, to wake up to some truth. Sharon, Jen, Blonde, Thank you so much.

Klaas, I'm positive that anywhere there are people that have justice for Natalee, a desire for truth, compassion for Nat's family, and place those concerns above themselves, you are honored and held in high esteem.

We're honored you have always been here and love you for it.