Natalee Case Discussion #794 1/18/09 - 1/23/09

[Keepthefaith]

Bastibro.Do you understand i'm not saying Paulus uses drugs?I'm saying that he may be involved in cleaning the drug money.

LOL Yes, i did read your post before i reacted. I just know that isn t the case.
And evidence . . do you have any? i'm telling you the man has a sexual deviation

I have no evidence.It's my opinion.How do you know that isn't the case?Please do enlighten me as to what evidence you have that Paulus has sexual deviant behaviour,as well as the source!That is very interesting.

[Buckeye]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

I'm still catching up but I saw this post after I made mine.

Buckeye I agree with everything you said except I believe what VietVet said that Joran hit her with a bat.

I'm open to that idea.  I'm also open to including Guido somewhere due to the "heavy battery" charge.

[bleachedblack]

Tamikosmom asked?

What was the real Joran/Paulus/Posner connection?

Gambling/ porn/ dare I add prostitution. (wonder if Posner or Brough was the mentoring type
as Joran also latched on to Patrick in a casino)

[bleachedblack]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

I'm still catching up but I saw this post after I made mine.

Buckeye I agree with everything you said except I believe what VietVet said that Joran hit her with a bat.

I'm open to that idea.  I'm also open to including Guido somewhere due to the "heavy battery" charge.

That heavy battery charge has always had me stumped. I wonder what constitutes 'heavy battery' under Dutch law? I think as little as pulling on the sleeve of a person trying to flee a situation in the US can constitute heavy battery.

No statement from Guido-that we have seen.

wonder if the rumors were true that he wore that makeup to school to cover scratches?

[San]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

I'm still catching up but I saw this post after I made mine.

Buckeye I agree with everything you said except I believe what VietVet said that Joran hit her with a bat.

I'm open to that idea.  I'm also open to including Guido somewhere due to the "heavy battery" charge.

I am too.

[Keepthefaith]

bastibro

I speculate that Paulus' is connected the industries encompassing Aruba's underground economy and ... it does appear he had already introduced his son to some of the aspects of the business.

Dispicable!!

The Island of Aruba did not anticipate the strength and determination of a mother by the name of Beth Holloway Twitty. By the time that Aruba realized that this amazing woman was not about to be silenced until her quest for answers regarding her precious daughter were answered … it was too late to turn back. It was no longer just about protecting Paulus and Joran in regards to their role in the events that encompass that fateful morning.  It was now about protecting those at all levels of the Aruban/Dutch administrations who were involved in the coverup … it was now about protecting the sons of the elite … it was now about protecting the judiciary and … it was now about the implications of exposing Michael Posner's little secrets in regards to organized crime … drugs … gambling … prostitution … pornography … money laundering.

What was the real Joran/Paulus/Posner connection?

Why was underage Joran permitted entry to the Excelsior Casino?

Why was underage Joran permitted to drink alcohol and gambling at the Excelsior Casino?

Why was underage Joran afforded a line of credit at the Excelsior Casino?

Why did Michael Posner hire American attorney Joe Tacopina to represent Joran?

Why did Michael Posner hire a private investigator to search for Natalee Holloway?

Why did Paulus not face any consequences for accompanying his underage son to a casino for the purpose of gambling and drinking?

Janet

+++++++++

Aruban casino boss had ties to Chicago mob
Thursday, February 23, 2006 | 6:07 PM
Missing Alabama teen last seen at casino
By Chuck Goudie

February 23, 2006 (WLS) -- Authorities on the island of Aruba have not been able to solve the mystery of what happened to Alabama teenager Natalie Holloway. She disappeared while on a high school trip last spring. The ABC7 I-Team has learned new details about the casino where Holloway was last seen, an Aruba casino run by a convicted high-ranking Chicago mobster.

The unsolved disappearance of 18-year-old Natalie Holloway has commanded worldwide attention. It has been widely reported that the last place Holloway was known to be alive was the Excelsior casino connected to the Holiday Inn where she and her classmates were staying.
 
The I-Team has learned that the casino where Holloway was last seen is operated by Chicagoan Michael Posner. The intelligence report on Posner lists him as a prominent member of the Chicago outfit for more than 40 years.

According to federal law enforcement, Michael Posner's most recent mob assignment was boss of illegal rackets in the north suburbs. Posner was convicted in 1987 of threatening wayward gamblers with death and running prostitutes out of this Lake County strip club.

Through his Chicago lawyer, Posner maintains that he has been clean for 15 years and since 1998 has operated the Excelsior casino on the Caribbean resort on the island of Aruba.
 
Last May, honor student Natalie Holloway was staying at the resort on her high school graduation trip when she disappeared. One of the last places she was seen alive was in Posner's Excelsior casino.
 
In security tape obtained by ABC News, Holloway is seen at a table seated next to Joran van der Sloot, a local who is the prime suspect in the case.

Van der Slout admits having had a romantic encounter with Holloway, but in an exclusive interview to air Thursday night on Primetime, he says he is no criminal.

"I think I've been portrayed unfairly. I've been portrayed as a murderer and a rapist and everything that I'm not," van der Sloot said.

Casino boss Michael Posner denies that he knows van der Sloot and denies ever extending him casino credit.

Posner's lawyer Allan Ackerman says Posner was in Chicago when Holloway vanished and returned to Aruba the day after.
 
Now 64 years old, here's the intelligence report on Michael William Posner:

* aka Michael Rubins and Irving Goldstein.

* his family still resides in Riverwoods.
 
* his criminal profile lists involvement in illegal gambling, strip clubs and vending machines.

* criminal history dates to 1960 includes numerous arrests and successful tax and racketeering prosecutions.
 
Posner says it was he who voluntarily turned over this casino surveillance tape to Aruban authorities and that he is furious they have allowed ABC News to broadcast it.

Posner says he has paid the expenses for private investigators to come here and assist in the search for Holloway and according to his lawyer: "He has nothin' to do with nothing" in the murder case.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=investigative&id=3936339


DANA PRETZER
July 23, 2007

Dana: One thing that makes my listeners scratch their heads so to speak and wonder, myself included and we'll talk about it again, is the fact of the underage drinking and gambling that had been going on admittedly by young van der Sloot.  Was there ever any discussion or has there ever been any discussion at least of filing some charges as far as that goes?

Jossy:  No, there hasn't been any of that. The authorities have just (inaudible) it aside, they haven't paid any attention to it then and they're not paying any attention to it now and over the past 26 months.   I haven't seen anything in the direction of trying to make some kind of statement that this is not (inaudiable) at least make some sort of a statement that this is not (inaubible) because it is a known fact that as an underage he wasn't supposed to be in the casino, much less in the company of his father. He was there, there are video tapes to prove that and still the authorities haven't done anything with regard to that specific case.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/07/23/the-dana-pretzer-show-monday-july-23rd-2007-special-guests-larry-sinclair-jossy-mansur-ladonna-meredith-attorney-jay-paul-deratany/


'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Sept. 19th
updated 6:33 a.m. PT, Tues., Sept. 20, 2005

COPUS:  Well this guy has that casino.  He‘s alleged to have organized crime ties back to Chicago.  And you can say alleged, he‘s actually served time.  He‘s been convicted.  So he comes up into Aruba and is able to get a gambling casino.  At the same time, we‘re told that Joran and his dad both are gambling there.  It really makes you wonder how that‘s happening and how they got this line of credit. 

COSBY:  Yes.  And a big, big line of credit.  Beth, I know you‘ve actually been to the casino, right?  And Michael Posner threatened you, is that correct? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, there was a phone call made.  And it was just really having me refer to—you know, I‘d only mentioned the fact I had gotten from prosecuting attorney as far as the open line of credit, and that Joran is in his casino gambling, and I don‘t think there was ever a question that Joran and Paulus Van Der Sloot had been in that Excelsior Casino, and, particularly, on the night of the 29th where he and his father met Natalee. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9407728/


'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for April 3
updated 8:24 a.m. PT, Tues., April. 4, 2006

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, if you look at the surveillance video footage, it appears that he’s the one sitting directly next to her and tries to engage her in conversation a couple of times.  And it’s sort of ironic that it’s his father who brought his underage son to a casino and left him there after he left, with access to his line of credit, to put this unfortunate chain of events in process.

You know, if Joran had never been there, not been allowed in there, because he’s underage and wasn’t accompanied by his father, the whole rest of the night wouldn’t have happened.

COSBY: You know, and, John, also, why would that be a significant—why is that in conflict to something else we’ve heard maybe from Paulus before?

KELLY: Well, he’s just claiming that, you know, he’s kept an eye on his son, you know, he’s kept him on a short leash, and, you know, his son is very well-behaved. And it turns out that he’s, you know, got him at casinos. If you’re under 18, you’re not legally even allowed in casinos, so his son was breaking the law with him enabling it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12150698/


Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE

Page 39:  Following our brief conversation, we all walk immediately to the fron desk to ask about someone named Joran who is staying in the hotel and plays in the casino here.  The Holiday Inn night manager, Brenda, knows him by name.  "Oh! yes ... yes ... Joran.  He gambles in the Excelsior Casino here.  He likes to prey on young female tourists.  Especially the blonds.   He is tall.  Good-looking boy.  Like a Dutch marine."   My mouth drops wide open.  "Where is he from?" I ask her.  She replies.  "He lives in Aruba."  I stutter.  "He's ... he's not a tourist just here for the summer?"  "Non, non," she says.

It takes a few moments to absorb this information.  The supposed tourist who befriended some of Natalee's classmates and who told them he was staying at their hotel lied to them.  He isn't a tourist.  He isn't staying here.


Katherine (Madison) Whatley
FBI Statement
July 12, 2005

After swimming at the hotel on Sunday, WHATLEY and other classmates, including HOLLOWAY, ate dinner at a restaurant next to the hotel. After dinner they went to the casino at the hotel. A few classmates were gambling at a card table along with an "older man" and YURON VAN DER SLOOT. (Whatley 302)

Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER
December 14, 2006

DANA: When you look at this case, a question keeps coming up. I am looking at the picture on my PC. It is the alleged picture of a person in the casino with Natalee that looks a lot like Paul. Has there been any update on this issue?

JOSSY: There have not been any change of opinion. People, including people in the casino say that is Paul.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2006/12/14/the-dana-pretzer-show-december-14th-2006-jossy-mansur/


Deepak Kalpoe
Suspect Statement
June 10, 2005

To your question as to what role Joran plays in our circle of friends, I can state the following. He has no real role. We are all the same.

To your question as to where we take the girls we pick up, I can state the following. Sometimes the girls stay at "Carlos & Charlies" or sometimes we take them to their hotel.

To your question was to what exactly happens when we have picked up the girls, I can state the following. Just kissing and dancing.

To your question whether sexual intercourse has happened, I can state the following. Yes, it has happened.

To your question whether it ever happened that all of us, so in one room, had sexual intercourse, I can state the following. It has happened.


Deepak Kalpoe
Suspect Statement
June 13, 2005

Andre asked me to come inside. I did go inside. I did not play, but did look at the cards of Joran and Guido.

At some given moment in time a tourist who was sitting at Joran's table got angry. The tourist thought that we were looking at the cards of other players and signaling/deciding for Joran when he should play or not. It lead to a disagreement between Joran and the tourist. The manager of the Radisson Casino came over and everything calmed down. I drank about four "whisky coke" gedronken in the Radisson Casino.  I now that Joran drank more because the waiters were constantly bringing him drinks.   I am not sure .what he was drinking. His drinks were of a yellow colour. I think it was “whisky soda" or 'Whisky water".

Wow Janet.Thanx.You're much more organized than i! I think Bastibro understands all to well!

[Buckeye]

Paulus very well could have a sexual deviation.  Many times, those people also have a drug problem.  Even though KTF didn't say or imply Paulus was a drug user, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.  He definitely looked like he needed a fix during his meeting at the house. That kind of sweat is more than just nerves IMO.

[Tamikosmom]

Help me out here--didn't someone provide documentation that the radar was turned off the night Natalee disappeared?

Still drinking my coffee this morning as it is bitterly cold today and I can't recall where we read that but it was fairly well established to be truth.

Anyone?

YES I'm looking for proof.

I think this article answers some of our questions:

Gerold Dompig during his CBS 48 Hours interview stated that experiments were done with dummies being thrown over board in the water; every time they drifted back to shore. The only way this would not occur was if a boat sailed more than two miles off shore. Dompig then stated, “a trip that would have turned up on police radar and been captured on tape. Police have accounted for every boat in the water the night Natalee vanished“.


---------

So their radar will only capture boats who go out farther than two miles (could answer our question about having chosen the location the trap was found in)

If we believe Dompig - every boat that was out past those two miles was accounted for, at least on the night of May 29/early morning May 30th

To cloud the issue of the radar even more,

I believe it was Jossy who recently stated in an interview, maybe with Greta, that the police had turned off the radar on the night Natalee disappeared.

Good day monkeys!

Aha!  Now that is also something we will recall.  The radar actually being turned off.  Could Jossy have said this on Dana?  Maybe if it was Greta we can locate a transcript.  Wish we had transcripts for all Dana programs as well.  Dana needs to learn to type real fast, lol.

 

I don't have transcripts, but Jossy made this statement on Nov. 18, 2009 OTR with Greta at about 3:00 minutes, credit to Bastibro for posting the link in our media coverage:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=9ErLVCnzZQ0

Probably Janet has this stashed somewhere 

I think this interview of Peter de Vries with Celes deserves more attention.
Joran stated specifically, when they were talking about the dummy s that were throwed in the ocean by ALE, that Natalee Wasn t THERE.
I assume ALE considers Celes as a credible witness.

NOVEMBER, 2008

Natalee Holloway's Mom: Aruba Investigators 'Not Following Up on Any Leads'
Wednesday, November 19, 2008

VAN SUSTEREN: And do you know -- and in terms of boats that night, do you know if any thorough investigation, one that you would have confidence in? Has that been done?

MANSUR: No, it hasn't been done because that night, somebody in the police force told the people handling the radar that controls the boats in the vicinity on the coast of Aruba -- told them to put it off.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454527,00.html


MARCH, 2006
Natalee Holloway: New Clues
Investigator Tells 48 Hours She Probably Died From Excessive Alcohol, Maybe Drugs
March 25, 2006

But Dr. Ruben Cruz, the head of the island’s search and rescue team showed 48 Hours that an unweighted body thrown overboard near the shore would wash up on the beach.

Cruz says he and his team have tossed a dummy overboard many times, but that in every case, it drifted back to shore. The only way that wouldn’t happen is if a boat sailed more than two miles offshore — a trip that would have turned up on police radar and been captured on tape.

Police have accounted for every boat in the water the night Natalee vanished.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page4.shtml

[Keepthefaith]

Bastibro.Do you understand i'm not saying Paulus uses drugs?I'm saying that he may be involved in cleaning the drug money.

LOL Yes, i did read your post before i reacted. I just know that isn t the case.
And evidence . . do you have any? i'm telling you the man has a sexual deviation

I have no evidence.It's my opinion.How do you know that isn't the case?Please do enlighten me as to what evidence you have that Paulus has sexual deviant behaviour,as well as the source!That is very interesting.

I'm Very excited to hear your answer Bastibro!

[Buckeye]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

I'm still catching up but I saw this post after I made mine.

Buckeye I agree with everything you said except I believe what VietVet said that Joran hit her with a bat.

I'm open to that idea.  I'm also open to including Guido somewhere due to the "heavy battery" charge.

That heavy battery charge has always had me stumped. I wonder what constitutes 'heavy battery' under Dutch law? I think as little as pulling on the sleeve of a person trying to flee a situation in the US can constitute heavy battery.

No statement from Guido-that we have seen.

wonder if the rumors were true that he wore that makeup to school to cover scratches?

IIRC when researching, I believe it had to involve a weapon or drugs...not just fists.

[Blue Moon]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

Reasonable thinking.  I too believe she died at the Sloots.  I also think there wasn't enough time to dispose of her body that night it happened therefore they had to dispose of it the next day as they had prior knowledge the parents were on the way.  I don't know if she was in that cage or not but I am leaning that way more every day.

[Blue Moon]

Bastibro.Do you understand i'm not saying Paulus uses drugs?I'm saying that he may be involved in cleaning the drug money.

LOL Yes, i did read your post before i reacted. I just know that isn t the case.
And evidence . . do you have any? i'm telling you the man has a sexual deviation

I believe he does too along with a LOT of Dutch men high up in the government of Aruba. Natalee was targeted by Paulus and Joran and his friends cast the fishing line and lured her in for Paulus and his buddies.  (JMO)

[Keepthefaith]

Paulus very well could have a sexual deviation.  Many times, those people also have a drug problem.  Even though KTF didn't say or imply Paulus was a drug user, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.  He definitely looked like he needed a fix during his meeting at the house. That kind of sweat is more than just nerves IMO.

That is very interesting Buckeye.I keep going back to Paulus and Antonio Carlo's relationship.If Paulus was a Drug user he definitley would have been much quicker to clean the money for Drug-smugglers,and or Posner?Just thoughs...

[bleachedblack]

Maybe Paulus did have a little monkey on his back. Profuse sweating occurs in chronic use of
certain drugs ie xtc....just sayin'

[Keepthefaith]

Maybe Paulus did have a little monkey on his back. Profuse sweating occurs in chronic use of
certain drugs ie xtc....just sayin'

Very plausible BB!What about Heroin,and or Cocaine?

[Buckeye]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

Reasonable thinking.  I too believe she died at the Sloots.  I also think there wasn't enough time to dispose of her body that night it happened therefore they had to dispose of it the next day as they had prior knowledge the parents were on the way.  I don't know if she was in that cage or not but I am leaning that way more every day.

I don't think they wanted to dispose of her that night.  I think they planned on framing a known perp.  When the family showed up and their story was blown, they got together again and planned the disposal.

At some given moment in time a tourist who was sitting at Joran's table got angry. The tourist thought that we were looking at the cards of other players and signaling/deciding for Joran when he should play or not. It lead to a disagreement between Joran and the tourist. The manager of the Radisson Casino came over and everything calmed down. I drank about four "whisky coke" gedronken in the Radisson Casino.  I now that Joran drank more because the waiters were constantly bringing him drinks.   I am not sure .what he was drinking. His drinks were of a yellow colour. I think it was “whisky soda" or 'Whisky water".

I think all this fuss was on purpose to give them an alibi for Monday night.  Why even bring it up?  Why not just say where you were.  Oh no, it was to alibi Monday night.

[Buckeye]

Maybe Paulus did have a little monkey on his back. Profuse sweating occurs in chronic use of
certain drugs ie xtc....just sayin'

 

[Keepthefaith]

Maybe Paulus did have a little monkey on his back. Profuse sweating occurs in chronic use of
certain drugs ie xtc....just sayin'

 

What are its short-term effects?
Users report that Ecstasy produces intensely pleasurable effects – including an enhanced sense of self-confidence and energy. Effects include feelings of peacefulness, acceptance and empathy. Users say they experience feelings of closeness with others and a desire to touch others. Other effects can include involuntary teeth clenching, a loss of inhibitions, transfixion on sights and sounds, nausea, blurred vision, chills and/or sweating. Increases in heart rate and blood pressure, as well as seizures, are also possible. The stimulant effects of the drug enable users to dance for extended periods, which when combined with the hot crowded conditions usually found at raves, can lead to severe dehydration and hyperthermia or dramatic increases in body temperature. This can lead to muscle breakdown and kidney, liver and cardiovascular failure. Cardiovascular failure has been reported in some of the Ecstasy-related fatalities.

After-effects can include sleep problems, anxiety and depression.
 

[bleachedblack]

Maybe Paulus did have a little monkey on his back. Profuse sweating occurs in chronic use of
certain drugs ie xtc....just sayin'

 

What are its short-term effects?
Users report that Ecstasy produces intensely pleasurable effects – including an enhanced sense of self-confidence and energy. Effects include feelings of peacefulness, acceptance and empathy. Users say they experience feelings of closeness with others and a desire to touch others. Other effects can include involuntary teeth clenching, a loss of inhibitions, transfixion on sights and sounds, nausea, blurred vision, chills and/or sweating. Increases in heart rate and blood pressure, as well as seizures, are also possible. The stimulant effects of the drug enable users to dance for extended periods, which when combined with the hot crowded conditions usually found at raves, can lead to severe dehydration and hyperthermia or dramatic increases in body temperature. This can lead to muscle breakdown and kidney, liver and cardiovascular failure. Cardiovascular failure has been reported in some of the Ecstasy-related fatalities.

After-effects can include sleep problems, anxiety and depression.
 

Cocaine-yes, heroin with withdrawal

[Blue Moon]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

Reasonable thinking.  I too believe she died at the Sloots.  I also think there wasn't enough time to dispose of her body that night it happened therefore they had to dispose of it the next day as they had prior knowledge the parents were on the way.  I don't know if she was in that cage or not but I am leaning that way more every day.

I don't think they wanted to dispose of her that night.  I think they planned on framing a known perp.  When the family showed up and their story was blown, they got together again and planned the disposal.

At some given moment in time a tourist who was sitting at Joran's table got angry. The tourist thought that we were looking at the cards of other players and signaling/deciding for Joran when he should play or not. It lead to a disagreement between Joran and the tourist. The manager of the Radisson Casino came over and everything calmed down. I drank about four "whisky coke" gedronken in the Radisson Casino.  I now that Joran drank more because the waiters were constantly bringing him drinks.   I am not sure .what he was drinking. His drinks were of a yellow colour. I think it was “whisky soda" or 'Whisky water".

I think all this fuss was on purpose to give them an alibi for Monday night.  Why even bring it up?  Why not just say where you were.  Oh no, it was to alibi Monday night.

Wasn't that Monday night the night that Beth said the boys did not look like they were dressed for the casino's that night?