Natalee Case Discussion #794 1/18/09 - 1/23/09

[texasmom]

Who are all those people?Polis TM?

I'm focusing in on the BIG tan guy just to the upper right of Rudy!

Go to the front page of Awe Mainta, picture there is much larger and easier to see.

http://awemainta.com/home/

[Keepthefaith]

Go to Chicago video 38.There's a picture of the guy painting the Rock at arubasilence.Could it be the same guy?I'll await your opinion?Could they have used trainees to paint those rocks?

[Keepthefaith]

Go to Chicago video 38.There's a picture of the guy painting the Rock at arubasilence.Could it be the same guy?I'll await your opinion?Could they have used trainees to paint those rocks?

The bigger picture is clearer.Don't think there the same!

[texasmom]

Go to Chicago video 38.There's a picture of the guy painting the Rock at arubasilence.Could it be the same guy?I'll await your opinion?Could they have used trainees to paint those rocks?

The bigger picture is clearer.Don't think there the same!

I couldn't see him well enough on the video to decide one way or the other anyway. 

[Keepthefaith]

Go to Chicago video 38.There's a picture of the guy painting the Rock at arubasilence.Could it be the same guy?I'll await your opinion?Could they have used trainees to paint those rocks?

The bigger picture is clearer.Don't think there the same!

I couldn't see him well enough on the video to decide one way or the other anyway. 

I don't think it is!There is a picture on the front page of arubasilence.You just have to scroll down.Heading to bed to get ready for another day..Thanx TM.Goodnight to all the monkey's!

[texasmom]

1/22/2009 Awe Mainta Front Page

http://awemainta.com/home/



Papiamentu translations:

“mi decision is decisivo, i am bandona politica, but will stay yuda”

wednesday, 21 january 2009 21:09

minister of husticia, rudy croes owing to re-afirma yesterday, cu the will not go back on list of candidato of mep for proximo eleccion. consecuentemente the is bandona politica oficialmente, but will stay always dispuesto for stay help. because here is deal of one faction politico cu past owing to help erect. rudy croes owing to go back tell, cu the will percura for one acolyte of family croes lever list y re-emplaz’e. together cu nel oduber, in his calidad of leader of faction together cu rudy croes will busca the acolyte of family here, although cu faction mep do not one faction of family. is for cara of family croes stay in faction mep, y on this will work proximamente. on the question, if the candidato here is one lady or one cabayero, rudy croes owing to prefera of lagu’e t’eynan. at his debido time, people will achieve know that is his susesor, cu can is one primo, or sobrino. come across


curso for polisnan of district yesterday afternoon in cas of cultura, did take lugar entrega of certificado at polisnan cu owing to participa n’e curso of bario-regisseur. the certificadonan here owing to being entrega by of minister of husticia, rudy croes.alto comisario, peter de witte first of bay over at entrega of the certificadonan owing to give of conoce cu cuerpo policial aruban owing to happen in one reorganisacion at 2003, cu the aim for can give one mihor cuido policial. always y cuando cu the aim for police have to is more serca of the people.

according minister rudy croes all cos cu police owing to ask they owing to achieve minister of husticia, rudy croes, el’a reacciona on the ponencia of miss of material cu have in cuerpo policial, as the.o. miguel maduro, chairman of sindicato of police owing to give of conoce recientemente. past owing to menciona cu much material owing to wordo give at cuerpo policial. all cos practicamente they owing to achieve, already cu according his opinion, presencia of police in we people is much important. if is algo sofistica, they're haye also. dirigiendo his self at prensa, rudy croes owing to ask for not witch cu one car cu owing to wordo achieve present for of the netherlands. the car provided that cuestion, cu porcierto owing to leave in prensa recientemente, is one donacion cu alto comisario of police, peter de witte owing to achieve on his self y can tell cu if the can wordo using, the is wordo using.ministerio of husticia is percura for place coin p’e police achieve his materialnan p’asina the can eherce his trabao. “esun cu is complain is because or the is deaf or the is ciego.”

This vehicle is what I believe he is referring to in red above.

1/16/2009 Awe Mainta Page 19

http://awemainta.com/home/

[texasmom]

Go to Chicago video 38.There's a picture of the guy painting the Rock at arubasilence.Could it be the same guy?I'll await your opinion?Could they have used trainees to paint those rocks?

The bigger picture is clearer.Don't think there the same!

I couldn't see him well enough on the video to decide one way or the other anyway. 

I don't think it is!There is a picture on the front page of arubasilence.You just have to scroll down.Heading to bed to get ready for another day..Thanx TM.Goodnight to all the monkey's!

Goodnight KTF!   

[texasmom]

JUSTICE FOR NATALEE!!!!

[2NJSons_Mom]

Good morning.  Just browsing around, it looks like the online version of Diario is now current.  Texasmom and others may have already noted this.....it's still only in papiamento, so I won't even attempt to translate or pull any articles.

 http://www.diarioaruba.com/diahuebs/frontpage/index.html

[BUCKSHOT]

I think Natalee died at the Sloots.  I think Joran and Paulus share more than porn. I believe the early gate theory..that she fell trying to get away. Originally, I think they placed her near the Racquet Club/Mangroves and then made up the Holiday Inn story, to blame a security guard for her demise (they knew she would be found).  When they were confronted with not being on the HI tape, they decided it was best to get rid of the body.  That would have been Monday night.

Reasonable thinking.  I too believe she died at the Sloots.  I also think there wasn't enough time to dispose of her body that night it happened therefore they had to dispose of it the next day as they had prior knowledge the parents were on the way.  I don't know if she was in that cage or not but I am leaning that way more every day.

Picking up a tourist and bringing them back to your place is definitely not far-fetched...
Swimming pool, (drinking) friends, a liberal father, an absent (school teaching) mother...

[BUCKSHOT]

Yes I think so Bucheye.

+++++++++++++

Greta being asked about the sweaty man interview.
E-mail No. 3
Caller
Greta,
Did you get a sense of there being something amiss with this guy, when you interviewed him and his wife? His wife certainly is upset and he seemed agitated and nervous.

ANSWER: He was very upset. What I don't know is if he was upset because of the serious problem or because he knows something... both are explanations for what I observed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160602,00.html#

International scrutiny put him on the hot seat...
This could easily cause him to be 'sweating bullets'...
Aruba probably gave him an Oscar for keeping his composure (somewhat) that day...

[BUCKSHOT]

Was Van der Stratten the one who ask Beth / Jug if Natalee had seizures?  Did Jacobs?  Any other cops ask that?  TIA

Snoopy I remember Beth saying that's one of the first questions asked by the police.  I am leaning towards Jacobs asking that.

Like every other tactic by the corrupted officials (within ALE)...

Round table meetings to create different (false) stories...

Throw the ideas out to the public, with help from press ambiguous releases and disinformant bloggers on popular and well-vested sites....

If people bite on the story, run with it, add more (false) juicy details, make it fit...
If people do not bite on the story, make up new ones...

[Blonde]

Was Van der Stratten the one who ask Beth / Jug if Natalee had seizures?  Did Jacobs?  Any other cops ask that?  TIA

On The Record February 4, 2008
Greta:
Where did the police get that seizure bit if they didn't get it from Joran when they picked him up?
John: I can't imagine any other place, I mean this was right after they had originally interviewed Joran and both Jug and Beth recall at least four (4) investigators asking them whether Natalee had epileptic seizures in the past or any sort of seizure history at all. van der Straaten, Jacobs, Tromp and a female investigator all repeatedly asked both Jug and Beth "does Natalee have any history of this' and they didn't just make that up, they obviously got it from somewhere.

http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:G3pRbzUX29UJ:nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html+kept+asking+Beth+if+Natalee+had+an+epileptic+past&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

[BUCKSHOT]

GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!!  GOOD NIGHT ZOOKEEPERS!!

A game of Scrabble ... 500 Rummy or ... Perquacky ... with hubby is where it is at.

Janet
7:35 PM PT

Goodnight Janet.Trying to swallow the horro that is the Van Der Sloots.Some great possibilities that are close to dead on.To the Persistence we go........

KTF....
I believe in the KISS theory....
The persistence crew members started out believing in finding Natalee...John Silvetti and/or  louis Schafer had ulterior motives. Tim Miller is AN AMERICAN HERO, and was conned/used by schafer (oil man) and silvetti by using TES/Natalee and her family to fund their ulterior motive (mapping the waters around aruba for personal financial gain). When the cage was found with potential remains of Natalee and/or evidence the stakes ratcheted up substantially...mos/richardson/ahata upped the payoff to keep the discovery from public disclosure. Kyle joined the bandwagon (lucrative jobs in Egypt/Norway) along with silvetti/schafer. Kermit and the Freebirds are exposing Kyle's missteps.....at LEAST OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE by kyle/silvetti/schafer.
I sincerely hope JQK and the FBI/State department and/or the Hague can go forward with this info......
Koen and family are in the US...start by interviewing them.....

I tend to agree in terms of why cover for the Lil' ol' Sporter.I know this has been gone over a million times.Would the Aruban govt protect J2k if they were the only players.I don't think so.To protect just Paulus.If i was a part of the ALE,and or judicial Paulus would have been thrown under the bus long ago.Unless.There is something way more sinister with many more players which i think you touched on with the potential for Vocking and Witte being there!

Yep...initially we heard paulass had peers over for a poker game that night. I believe witte/vocking/other govt/police were there for a gang rape of a drugged tourist (in this case - Natalee) procured by urine (it happened 20 times before without incident). But in this case, something bad happened......

A poker game, hosted by Paulus (with government official peers), at his house???
I have never heard of this before...Any source for this??? Has anyone else ever seen this???

Not trying to discredit...Just never seen it before...

[wreck]

GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!!  GOOD NIGHT ZOOKEEPERS!!

A game of Scrabble ... 500 Rummy or ... Perquacky ... with hubby is where it is at.

Janet
7:35 PM PT

Goodnight Janet.Trying to swallow the horro that is the Van Der Sloots.Some great possibilities that are close to dead on.To the Persistence we go........

KTF....
I believe in the KISS theory....
The persistence crew members started out believing in finding Natalee...John Silvetti and/or  louis Schafer had ulterior motives. Tim Miller is AN AMERICAN HERO, and was conned/used by schafer (oil man) and silvetti by using TES/Natalee and her family to fund their ulterior motive (mapping the waters around aruba for personal financial gain). When the cage was found with potential remains of Natalee and/or evidence the stakes ratcheted up substantially...mos/richardson/ahata upped the payoff to keep the discovery from public disclosure. Kyle joined the bandwagon (lucrative jobs in Egypt/Norway) along with silvetti/schafer. Kermit and the Freebirds are exposing Kyle's missteps.....at LEAST OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE by kyle/silvetti/schafer.
I sincerely hope JQK and the FBI/State department and/or the Hague can go forward with this info......
Koen and family are in the US...start by interviewing them.....

I tend to agree in terms of why cover for the Lil' ol' Sporter.I know this has been gone over a million times.Would the Aruban govt protect J2k if they were the only players.I don't think so.To protect just Paulus.If i was a part of the ALE,and or judicial Paulus would have been thrown under the bus long ago.Unless.There is something way more sinister with many more players which i think you touched on with the potential for Vocking and Witte being there!

Yep...initially we heard paulass had peers over for a poker game that night. I believe witte/vocking/other govt/police were there for a gang rape of a drugged tourist (in this case - Natalee) procured by urine (it happened 20 times before without incident). But in this case, something bad happened......

A poker game, hosted by Paulus (with government official peers), at his house???
I have never heard of this before...Any source for this??? Has anyone else ever seen this???

Not trying to discredit...Just never seen it before...

I certainly remember it being discussed, but do not recall the source. I THINK it was taken from a post on a local Aruban forum.

[Anna]

Like every other tactic by the corrupted officials (within ALE)...

Round table meetings to create different (false) stories...

Throw the ideas out to the public, with help from press ambiguous releases and disinformant bloggers on popular and well-vested sites....

If people bite on the story, run with it, add more (false) juicy details, make it fit...
If people do not bite on the story, make up new ones...

I agree, Buckeye.  And sometimes if the rumor fails, blame Beth for starting it in the first place, lol.

We have seen this over and over and over.

Unfortunately, along the way, some of the rumors did stick to further obfuscate what little we did know.

.

[Anna]

Wreck, I remember the ppker game discussion as well but don't know if it was stated as fact or speculation at the time.

Don't recall the source. 

[BUCKSHOT]

I see we are back to believing Natalee was murdered at the sloots hellhole of a house.
Made sense from day 1.
Natalee was targeted by paulass (casino) and urine procured her for the group paulass had over while anita was out of town. (urine to anita - if you had been home, this would not have happened)  paulass judge friends were there (witt/king?) and that's why they blocked the search of the property. It was a setup sex party although Natalee never had a clue...she was drugged and led into harms way (kidnapped) and raped (urine said they hit the jackpot - Natalee was a virgin). Natalee fought back (guido scratches-heavy battery) and urine probably hit her with a bat (Viet Vet). Freddie knows - he set up the video equipment - took video for uploading - maybe paulass went to Florida to ensure the video was secured). They hastily buried Natalee the first early morning....rigamortise set in and the knife/machete from the fisherman's hut was used to chop Natalee up (the aruba bay rock video) and she was placed in the trap. They took her out the second or third night in Koen's boat, or they used the fisherman's boat (ATM withdrawal to pay for fuel/bribes).
This is a pastime event by some on the island, and it had to be covered up so as not to hurt tourism....paulass called in some favors early on and it snowballed to where ahata/authorities/powers that be made a conscious decision to never let the events of Natalee's demise  be exposed.
paulass is knew deep in sexual perversions and/or drugs and/or human trafficking...his role in govt contracts gave him leverage for favors....
As Minnesota Dad says.......paulass is your perp......
And, in honor of ROBOTS....I HATE THEM ALL...

billb -

Let me first say that this is not far-fetched at all...Well thought out..I, myself, tend to believe something similar to this...A (somewhat) simple crime...A cover-up that has now (3.5 years later) snowballed into a complex, web of deceit, lies, and corruption...

Random thoughts come to mind, of unanswered questions...Please feel free to comment on anything...

(1) VanderSloot home. Definitely plays a role in the crime scene...The search was blocked for a reason - it potentially holds many clues. Furniture truck, concrete work, maids, shoes, phones..
(a) Joran and friends, after lowering a (last-night on the island) tourist's inhibitions (drug in the drink) brought her back to his home for an after-hours swim/alcohol (try to score) party with friends.  Drive around, or not, for awhile as the drug's effects set in...Paulus was home sleeping soundly or not...Last days of school to follow - exams - for an above average student...Anita (a school teacher) may have been more strict about this and broke the party up...J2K invite (key) friends over along the way - Freddy, Guido, Koen ?? Freddy lives close and seems to represent a camera...Kalpoes may or may not have stuck around...Maybe just one of the Kalpoes stuck around and the other was dropped off along the way home...Something bad happened... OR(b) Joran, with knowledge of a Paulus party and knowing Anita will not be home, tries to secure a blonde for them. This scenario - b - assumes that it was pre-meditated to secure a blonde before arriving at CnC. It also assumes a sex-party sub-culture in Aruba (I realize that this element has been discovered through extensive digging around at SM of Aruba over the years) that was pre-planned to occur at the Sloot house that evening.  This would also (possibly) imply Freddy videotaping older men in sex acts?? I just can not see Joran and Freddy behind a camera filming Ben Vocking having sex with Natalee Holloway...This scenario would also have Paulus and/or others involved in the ultimate demise of NH - the final blow (if you will)...OR (c) Not at the Sloot house but at an impromtu rave party or secluded location - Lorenzo house (clothing of NH at his house). I have never seen this sourced to lend accuracy to this theory, only suggestive thinking. OR A Matty Apartments or Lion's Den type place. - c - implies a crime scene, not at Sloot compound...

(2) Rock scene. Has always boggled my mind. Is it fact or fiction? Was it really cleansed of evidence by professionals or was it photographed in broad daylight as a distractor?? I just do not know and would love to hear thoughts on its relevance...Part of me says that rigamortis may have set in and, in order to make NH's body smaller, an out-of-the-way spot may have been used/needed to do the gruesome dirty work - a la rocks...While part of me says that it was just the distraction needed to explain head injuries (from rocks), seeing sharks story (as invented? by suspects), etc... Either way, their explanation of painting them so that tourists will not drive their cars into them is just plain non-sensical in my opinion. Laughable...

(3) Crab trap. Discovered by Persistence crew. Seems there was a two-fold purpose - oil mapping and Natalee searching. If you are mapping, while searching, no big deal..What ensued seems awful fishy and unexplained, to date. Tim Miller being brought off the boat for liability reasons?? Especially after suspecting corruption, evidence tampering. Without beating a dead horse, if a trap was found, why would one not turn it over to reputable authorities - FBI? Hell, let Dateline take pictures of it to be broadcast to the world? My biggest question, in regards to the trap is this: Why would Aruba wait for an American search team to come to their waters to search for a missing tourists body, in a highly publicized case? Why would they not have visited the site years ago? Then, there would be nothing to be discovered by the Persistence crew 2.5 years later. This does not make sense to me. I just can not understand that if they had knowledge of a possible disposal site, and being that they went to such great lengths to cover every other aspect of evidence in this case, why would they allow the body of this internationally famous girl sit in a trap just off of their island in the waters? Why would they not have dove the site, cleaned the area long before the Persistence arrived? Thoughts and opinions are definitely welcome on this question...

(4) Evidence. Statements. I often wonder if statements were even given by the suspects, other than to ascertain the truth for their own knowledge, rather than for purposes of solving the crime.  Someone on the cover-up team probably just wrote them for the suspects so as to fit the story line.  The evidence, at every turn, was destroyed, hidden, and confiscated.  Items that were reported as having been tested were switched. They spent more time and effort cleansing crime scenes than investigating and collecting evidence from them.  

(5) Cover-up. The death of a tourist occurred at the hands of Joran VanderSloot and comapny (whoever that may be). I think this is a given.  Paulus, a figure in Aruban government and/or politics did not want the negative stigma attached to him or family, that was to be associated with a homicide, nor accidental death.  I feel that his very first point of contact was JanVanderStraaten. It is reported that he was a godfather? and definitely a close friend.  He conveniently happened to be the chief of polis. What a good place to start. Jan VanderStraaten, having been in the business for many years, probably had colleagues that would do as he said, without question. One of them being Jacobs.  It is also known that Vocking and Paulus have had a working relationship in the past with the Matthews case. Paulus first straightened out stories among the kids with emphasis on NoBodyNoCrime. This was his main theme.  Never say a word to anyone. They invented the Holiday Inn story for the family. A frame job on two security guards would suffice to the family. The family would watch those damn murdering security guards go to jail for a long time. End of story. Little did anyone on the island realize, The Holloways were already en route to Aruba. Enter the big whammy for Aruba - hte international media.  The story was just not adding up TO ANYONE. Paulus, the orchestrator, could not shake the unwanted stigma. Luckily for him , though, his close friend Jan and Denny would be able to control evidence and statements. One step further, everyone would wonder about the impact on tourism.  The media was relentless all the while. Aruba went into defense mode instead of joining justice and doing the right thing so easily.  Disinformants got involved, the AHATA got involved, and before you know it, things spiralled way out of control. There was no turning back. It became an us VS them mentality. Everyone on the island clammed up so as not to be the whistleblower out of fear. Here we are...Almost four years later...No closer to the truth, unfortunately...

I am now done rambling...Please share your thoughts...
I, like many others, have a general theory as to what happened. The particulars are not so clear, though...Would love to know them...

[Anna]

I would tend to give Paulus a pass on the sweating had it not stopped a bit later.  Even Tito made a comment that Paulus sweating had stopped.

Paulus had had fifteen years to adjust to that climate.  None of the others in the room, all fair-skinned Caucasians just like Paulus had anything like that problem.

And then next thing we know, problem all gone.  I think he was drying out cold turkey in fear of jail and blood test.

As for his being sexual deviant, well any parent giving his minor child porn to go with his new laptop is at the least twisted.  Most of us want our kids to do well at school and do things like study.  Porn would be the last thing I would have given to mine.  They all got instead a set of reference books for writing papers. 

I hate porn.  It degrades women, children and other vulnerable people.  Primitive thinking involved in its creation, etc.  While I agree with Taco that Paulus is a simpleton, apparently that is called an intellectual by some on the island.  Guess everything is relative. 

All that lavish investment in the 80's seemed to go straight to their heads and I do think Aruba came to think themselves really something special.  Rude awakening in store for them there.  There are many more attractive islands and the oil they refine wouldn't run a major U.S. city for a day.

[Anna]

Oduber went on TV and announced that they couldn't have a tourist come to harm at the hands of the locals and so everyone closed ranks and marched in lock step to see that they didn't regardless of the facts.

I also recall some smirking face on TV, maybe Dompig, saying we wouldn't boycott because so many of the hotels are American owned.  That it would be hurting our own investment.  They didn't seem to have any concept or understanding of what a consumer boycott was and even went so far as to suggest it is illegal.  Another rude awakening as it is a form of peaceful protest.  It is not the same as hacking their national bank, etc. to destroy an economy but a form of free speech.  Freedom of choice.