Natalee Case Discussion #794 1/18/09 - 1/23/09

[bleachedblack]

 

Zoogeepers Tamikos is putting hearts in my mouth!

[2NJSons_Mom]

Check out this link. I thought it was interesting.

http://www.poetry.com/dotnet/P8283799/999/1/display.aspx

Could it be our kyle kingman?

Don't know? It sure has a funny feel to it to me.
The title is "The Courage"

Could be he's working his way out of the Big L club, if it is.  It's copyrighted 2009...

[2NJSons_Mom]

 

Zoogeepers Tamikos is putting hearts in my mouth!

Yes, that is strange...you posted 'hmmmmmm' ....where did that heart come from?   

[klaasend]

Check out this link. I thought it was interesting.

http://www.poetry.com/dotnet/P8283799/999/1/display.aspx

Could it be our kyle kingman?

I'm pretty sure it is.

[Patriot]

Check out this link. I thought it was interesting.

http://www.poetry.com/dotnet/P8283799/999/1/display.aspx

Could it be our kyle kingman?

Don't know? It sure has a funny feel to it to me.
The title is "The Courage"

Could be he's working his way out of the Big L club, if it is.  It's copyrighted 2009...

"The coach once told his pupils: There are two types of
people in life. Winners and winners that know how to
lose. If you honestly in your heart feel that you have
given everything you had to the game, regardless of
the outcome, no matter what the score is, then you are
still a winner."
Kyle Kingman


Wasn't it Private Eye who said "The game was fixed"

[texasmom]

Check out this link. I thought it was interesting.

http://www.poetry.com/dotnet/P8283799/999/1/display.aspx

Could it be our kyle kingman?

Don't know? It sure has a funny feel to it to me.
The title is "The Courage"

Could be he's working his way out of the Big L club, if it is.  It's copyrighted 2009...

"The coach once told his pupils: There are two types of
people in life. Winners and winners that know how to
lose. If you honestly in your heart feel that you have
given everything you had to the game, regardless of
the outcome, no matter what the score is, then you are
still a winner."
Kyle Kingman


Wasn't it Private Eye who said "The game was fixed"

Yes it was.

PRIVATE EYE - SCARED MONKEY SITE

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245

[billb's daughter]

I see we are back to believing Natalee was murdered at the sloots hellhole of a house.
Made sense from day 1.
Natalee was targeted by paulass (casino) and urine procured her for the group paulass had over while anita was out of town. (urine to anita - if you had been home, this would not have happened)  paulass judge friends were there (witt/king?) and that's why they blocked the search of the property. It was a setup sex party although Natalee never had a clue...she was drugged and led into harms way (kidnapped) and raped (urine said they hit the jackpot - Natalee was a virgin). Natalee fought back (guido scratches-heavy battery) and urine probably hit her with a bat (Viet Vet). Freddie knows - he set up the video equipment - took video for uploading - maybe paulass went to Florida to ensure the video was secured). They hastily buried Natalee the first early morning....rigamortise set in and the knife/machete from the fisherman's hut was used to chop Natalee up (the aruba bay rock video) and she was placed in the trap. They took her out the second or third night in Koen's boat, or they used the fisherman's boat (ATM withdrawal to pay for fuel/bribes).
This is a pastime event by some on the island, and it had to be covered up so as not to hurt tourism....paulass called in some favors early on and it snowballed to where ahata/authorities/powers that be made a conscious decision to never let the events of Natalee's demise  be exposed.
paulass is knew deep in sexual perversions and/or drugs and/or human trafficking...his role in govt contracts gave him leverage for favors....
As Minnesota Dad says.......paulass is your perp......
And, in honor of ROBOTS....I HATE THEM ALL...

billb -

Let me first say that this is not far-fetched at all...Well thought out..I, myself, tend to believe something similar to this...A (somewhat) simple crime...A cover-up that has now (3.5 years later) snowballed into a complex, web of deceit, lies, and corruption...

Random thoughts come to mind, of unanswered questions...Please feel free to comment on anything...

(1) VanderSloot home. Definitely plays a role in the crime scene...The search was blocked for a reason - it potentially holds many clues. Furniture truck, concrete work, maids, shoes, phones..
(a) Joran and friends, after lowering a (last-night on the island) tourist's inhibitions (drug in the drink) brought her back to his home for an after-hours swim/alcohol (try to score) party with friends.  Drive around, or not, for awhile as the drug's effects set in...Paulus was home sleeping soundly or not...Last days of school to follow - exams - for an above average student...Anita (a school teacher) may have been more strict about this and broke the party up...J2K invite (key) friends over along the way - Freddy, Guido, Koen ?? Freddy lives close and seems to represent a camera...Kalpoes may or may not have stuck around...Maybe just one of the Kalpoes stuck around and the other was dropped off along the way home...Something bad happened... OR(b) Joran, with knowledge of a Paulus party and knowing Anita will not be home, tries to secure a blonde for them. This scenario - b - assumes that it was pre-meditated to secure a blonde before arriving at CnC. It also assumes a sex-party sub-culture in Aruba (I realize that this element has been discovered through extensive digging around at SM of Aruba over the years) that was pre-planned to occur at the Sloot house that evening.  This would also (possibly) imply Freddy videotaping older men in sex acts?? I just can not see Joran and Freddy behind a camera filming Ben Vocking having sex with Natalee Holloway...This scenario would also have Paulus and/or others involved in the ultimate demise of NH - the final blow (if you will)...OR (c) Not at the Sloot house but at an impromtu rave party or secluded location - Lorenzo house (clothing of NH at his house). I have never seen this sourced to lend accuracy to this theory, only suggestive thinking. OR A Matty Apartments or Lion's Den type place. - c - implies a crime scene, not at Sloot compound...
 I go with -b- at least paulass is filmed with Natalee - disgusting as that is..
(2) Rock scene. Has always boggled my mind. Is it fact or fiction? Was it really cleansed of evidence by professionals or was it photographed in broad daylight as a distractor?? I just do not know and would love to hear thoughts on its relevance...Part of me says that rigamortis may have set in and, in order to make NH's body smaller, an out-of-the-way spot may have been used/needed to do the gruesome dirty work - a la rocks...While part of me says that it was just the distraction needed to explain head injuries (from rocks), seeing sharks story (as invented? by suspects), etc... Either way, their explanation of painting them so that tourists will not drive their cars into them is just plain non-sensical in my opinion. Laughable...
 I agree with either way - non-sensical - but intriguing if rigamortise set in...and the breakin at the fish huts and missing knief/machete is believed...
(3) Crab trap. Discovered by Persistence crew. Seems there was a two-fold purpose - oil mapping and Natalee searching. If you are mapping, while searching, no big deal..What ensued seems awful fishy and unexplained, to date. Tim Miller being brought off the boat for liability reasons?? Especially after suspecting corruption, evidence tampering. Without beating a dead horse, if a trap was found, why would one not turn it over to reputable authorities - FBI? Hell, let Dateline take pictures of it to be broadcast to the world? My biggest question, in regards to the trap is this: Why would Aruba wait for an American search team to come to their waters to search for a missing tourists body, in a highly publicized case? Why would they not have visited the site years ago? Then, there would be nothing to be discovered by the Persistence crew 2.5 years later. This does not make sense to me. I just can not understand that if they had knowledge of a possible disposal site, and being that they went to such great lengths to cover every other aspect of evidence in this case, why would they allow the body of this internationally famous girl sit in a trap just off of their island in the waters? Why would they not have dove the site, cleaned the area long before the Persistence arrived? Thoughts and opinions are definitely welcome on this question...
 fair assumptions and questions....I still believe paulass/urine did not know of the actual disposal site....and the arrogant pos in charge of the investigation never really asked specifics of paulass/urine and never believed the persistence search would happen, and/or they figured the "fix was in" and the trap would either not be found, or would be turned over to aruban authorities....

(4) Evidence. Statements. I often wonder if statements were even given by the suspects, other than to ascertain the truth for their own knowledge, rather than for purposes of solving the crime.  Someone on the cover-up team probably just wrote them for the suspects so as to fit the story line.  The evidence, at every turn, was destroyed, hidden, and confiscated.  Items that were reported as having been tested were switched. They spent more time and effort cleansing crime scenes than investigating and collecting evidence from them.  
agree wholeheartedly
(5) Cover-up. The death of a tourist occurred at the hands of Joran VanderSloot and comapny (whoever that may be). I think this is a given.  Paulus, a figure in Aruban government and/or politics did not want the negative stigma attached to him or family, that was to be associated with a homicide, nor accidental death.  I feel that his very first point of contact was JanVanderStraaten. It is reported that he was a godfather? and definitely a close friend.  He conveniently happened to be the chief of polis. What a good place to start. Jan VanderStraaten, having been in the business for many years, probably had colleagues that would do as he said, without question. One of them being Jacobs.  It is also known that Vocking and Paulus have had a working relationship in the past with the Matthews case. Paulus first straightened out stories among the kids with emphasis on NoBodyNoCrime. This was his main theme.  Never say a word to anyone. They invented the Holiday Inn story for the family. A frame job on two security guards would suffice to the family. The family would watch those damn murdering security guards go to jail for a long time. End of story. Little did anyone on the island realize, The Holloways were already en route to Aruba. Enter the big whammy for Aruba - hte international media.  The story was just not adding up TO ANYONE. Paulus, the orchestrator, could not shake the unwanted stigma. Luckily for him , though, his close friend Jan and Denny would be able to control evidence and statements. One step further, everyone would wonder about the impact on tourism.  The media was relentless all the while. Aruba went into defense mode instead of joining justice and doing the right thing so easily.  Disinformants got involved, the AHATA got involved, and before you know it, things spiralled way out of control. There was no turning back. It became an us VS them mentality. Everyone on the island clammed up so as not to be the whistleblower out of fear. Here we are...Almost four years later...No closer to the truth, unfortunately...
 agree wholeheartedly again.....
I am now done rambling...Please share your thoughts...
I, like many others, have a general theory as to what happened. The particulars are not so clear, though...Would love to know them...

Buckshot....good rambling....I made some comments in red above....like you, I'd love to know what actually happened and most important that Natalee and her family get justice, AND the preps get due justice here on earth...and then ROT IN HELL....mhoo

[Patriot]

Good Night Monkeys!

[nonesuche]

I'd counter that I don't know who looks slimier, Paulus or Joe.

Hi, None,

Well, it's close.  That's for sure.  I think in that particular photo I will vote for Paulus because of the zipper effect.       Normally, it would be Joe but this time I will vote for Paulus.


 

  reminds me of some of the sharks I work with too but you're right, the zipper man wins this round !!

thinking of Paulus anatomy is soooo wrong on so many levels to begin with and with Joe the oil slick it would be tough to get any traction on him 

I need to sleep, stress at work is making me punchy 

NJSons_Mom

  You made me laugh hard tonight, thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.

Actually I don't think slimier is a word anyway, it was just the only thing that seemed to fit in the moment. 

The phantom heart made me bust too 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Good Night Monkeys!

G'nite, Patriot.  Thanks for that link.

[texasmom]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

[hotping]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

Well Said TM! I Agree! I think that alot of those workers on the Persistence got duped....Just liike We did! 

[texasmom]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

Well Said TM! I Agree! I think that alot of those workers on the Persistence got duped....Just liike We did! 

Thanks Hotping, yes I believe some truly believed they were only there to bring Natalee home.  Knowing how I feel, I can only imagine how they must feel.

 

[hotping]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

Well Said TM! I Agree! I think that alot of those workers on the Persistence got duped....Just liike We did! 

Thanks Hotping, yes I believe some truly believed they were only there to bring Natalee home.  Knowing how I feel, I can only imagine how they must feel.

 

I would think that the Galley personel and the deckhands were not in on the whole scheme of things...to this day They may not even realize that there were other motives behind the search...I know that if I was one of them I'd be pretty pissed to learn the truth....    

[texasmom]

Anybody else having problems posting?  I've noticed especially if I "preview" before I post I'm getting a "timed out" message...."not allowed to post replies in this forum" message.  

 

[texasmom]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

Well Said TM! I Agree! I think that alot of those workers on the Persistence got duped....Just liike We did! 

Thanks Hotping, yes I believe some truly believed they were only there to bring Natalee home.  Knowing how I feel, I can only imagine how they must feel.

 

I would think that the Galley personel and the deckhands were not in on the whole scheme of things...to this day They may not even realize that there were other motives behind the search...I know that if I was one of them I'd be pretty pissed to learn the truth....    

I agree! 

[hotping]

Anybody else having problems posting?  I've noticed especially if I "preview" before I post I'm getting a "timed out" message...."not allowed to post replies in this forum" message.  

 

No problems Here!

[billb's daughter]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

Well Said TM! I Agree! I think that alot of those workers on the Persistence got duped....Just liike We did! 

Thanks Hotping, yes I believe some truly believed they were only there to bring Natalee home.  Knowing how I feel, I can only imagine how they must feel.

 

I would think that the Galley personel and the deckhands were not in on the whole scheme of things...to this day They may not even realize that there were other motives behind the search...I know that if I was one of them I'd be pretty pissed to learn the truth....    

I agree! 

Me too....agree...
I think kyle was caught up in greed, but did come forward with Freebirds......I hope our FBI can engage and get truth from those involved with the deception.....
The persistence was marketed, funds solicited and accepted....in the name of Justice for Natalee...
Our State Department needs to engage....

[hotping]

Hey billb....Good to See You.....

[hotping]

I have to give Kyle credit for having the courage to question what went on aboard the Persistence.  He wouldn't be in the boiling pot now if he'd just kept his doubts to himself and never told anyone about them.  More than likely, we would have never known; or never seen what was bagged up to take from the trap.  Yes, I wish he'd done the right thing and told the family and the FBI right away instead of the route he took.  I wish he hadn't said and done a lot of things that he did to keep the information from coming out.  I wish he'd had the courage to see it through, and not bow to the threats, or the incentives, or WHATEVER made him not follow through.

But I am thankful that he did save the information he had, and shared it with someone....so we do know now to question what happened.  And to question WHO WAS IN THE CAGE?????

I'm also extremely thankful that those that he did share it with, had the courage to come out with the information and take the heat for doing so.

So much more has evolved from that information, so again I'm thankful I know about it.  I'm thankful I won't go through life being awestruck at the selflessness of some that were in charge of that "mission of hope".  I still believe there were some heroes on that mission, just not "all" that were involved.  Right now I still believe some of those men were out there for one purpose; the STATED PURPOSE.....to find Natalee. 

JMO

Well Said TM! I Agree! I think that alot of those workers on the Persistence got duped....Just liike We did! 

Thanks Hotping, yes I believe some truly believed they were only there to bring Natalee home.  Knowing how I feel, I can only imagine how they must feel.

 

I would think that the Galley personel and the deckhands were not in on the whole scheme of things...to this day They may not even realize that there were other motives behind the search...I know that if I was one of them I'd be pretty pissed to learn the truth....    

I agree! 

Me too....agree...
I think kyle was caught up in greed, but did come forward with Freebirds......I hope our FBI can engage and get truth from those involved with the deception.....
The persistence was marketed, funds solicited and accepted....in the name of Justice for Natalee...
Our State Department needs to engage....

I Totally Agree....I Hope and Pray that the FBI or Someone in the US is looking into it!