Caylee Marie Anthony #92 1/15/09 - 1/17/09

[Fuzzball]

*Snipped*

Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D., wrote a book called "On Death and Dying."  In this book, she says that there are 5 stages of grief that most everyone goes through when either dying themselves or grieving the loss of a loved one.  (you can also bounce back a stage or two - so it isn't always linear.)  The stages are:

   1. Denial:  "Caylee isn't dead.  She's fine.  She'll come home soon."
   2. Anger:  "Why isn't LE doing their jobs?  Why are they persecuting KC instead of finding our living Caylee, who is definitely not dead?"  (I imagine this anger will turn toward KC soon)
   3. Bargaining:  "Just give us some info, honey."; "Just help us find Caylee alive.";  "I would trade places with you if I could, honey, we just want Caylee home."
   4. Depression:  "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "We'll never see Caylee again."
   5. Acceptance:  "It's going to be OK."; "She's gone and now we must deal with it."

So, considering this, I have to say that even though we do not understand CA and GA's behavior and we all feel we would behave differently, let's remember that we just don't know how we react in this situation.  I can only imagine the torment they feel.  I also noted that GA is trying to get KC to come clean to everyone and this would end the big mess.  At this point, I feel they know something bad happened, but because they can't comprehend the idea that their granddaughter has possibly been MURDERED and even worse that their own flesh and blood did it, they (specifically GA) think that it was probably an accident and KC can clear everything up if she just tells the truth.

I think it's going to be a long time before we see CA and GA make it to the "acceptance" stage of grief.  It takes many people MANY years to get to this point, if they make it at all.

Hi Iron Cowgirl,

You make some excellent observations about the grief process and how it specifically relates to Casey's mind and thought process. I agree with you, I believe at this point they know something. It is easy to see their mistakes in parenting while watching this video but in all honesty, they probably didn't have much of a chance against Casey. Someone asked me in another post if I thought there was any way to get Casey to talk. No, I don't believe there is. Casey has used lies and manipulation her entire life, it's all she knows. There is no way she is going to fess up. There is nothing they can offer (or anyone for that matter) that will override her propensity toward lying.

There are several things going on here.
Casey
1. Casey is a master manipulator-She will threaten to hang up the phone when she feels boxed in, scrutinized, questioned, not believed, etc. And interestingly enough, it works. You can see how both G & C placate her, walk on eggshells, do whatever it takes to keep her from leaving. She will use guilt, anger, threats to get her way. 

2. Casey has to feel the control-The feeling of control is her security. There are many psychological reasons why she must exhibit this to the extent of manipulation. People who have to feel control of this level are most certainly out of control with their internal psyche. She will go to her room, slam the door and make them sorry they ever made her angry.

3. Casey wants to be rescued-She has created an underlying fantasy/fairy tale that most girls grow out of (though some never do) of being the princess in the castle awaiting their prince. She has the classic signs of this fantasy. Cindy-The evil witch (Sleeping Beauty), George-The loving father (Cinderella), Lee (Modern Day fairy tale-Star Wars), Tony, Jesse, Ricardo (princes in many fairy tales), Caylee-(Cinderella's evil step-sisters), Herself-The beautiful princess (almost every fairy tale).

4. Casey rarely puts any thought into her answers-I noticed this in her initial interview with the detectives at Universal. She only responds to what is being stated at that moment. I have not heard her answer in layers. She did this with G & C. This is why she sounds so contradictory. Are you in the out of the loop? Or does Jose keep you informed? Is she getting support from the outside? Or is she only getting the brunt of the anger and accusations? Is she sleeping or not sleeping?

5. Casey is extremely jealous-She never says, I miss her, I miss my Caylee, I miss my baby girl, I miss her laugh, etc. She only says she 'wants' her back but only after she has said, I know you guys want her back. Caylee to her was a possession, one to keep or destroy based on how she was feeling at any given moment. This is indicative of her emotional maturity.

6. Casey is a victim-She plays this role because she wants something. She wants attention. She wants us all to understand that she is in pain, her life has been taken away and that she is suffering. Suffering because she can't be with her mom, dad, lee. She doesn't have access to her community, her house. She doesn't have her phone or her PC. Not once did she say that she was suffering because of Caylee. Based on what we know now, once she got out of jail, she did nothing to find Caylee. This further reinforces how she uses her words to get what she wants but she didn't live up to her promises.

7. Casey is the only one allowed to be upset-She uses her situation of being in jail as the justification for minimalizing how G & C are feeling. She is very selfish.

8. Casey admits guilt-She says, When this goes to trial. At this point she hasn't been indicted yet. She is admitting her involvement without ever saying it. She knows shes guilty. She knows where it is headed. She expects people to hate her. This is just another tactic she will use to gain sympathy, poor me, every one hates me, they want to see me suffer. The money in her account is her reinforcement that people do feel sorry for her, that people sympathize with her, that not everyone wants her to suffer, not everyone hates her.

Cindy
1. Cindy cannot look her in the eye-Her signs point to frustration, distrust, betrayal and lies all previously told prior to the disappearance. Years and years of deceit are culminating in Cindy.

2. Cindy has lost hope-She is seeking a crumb of information to lead her to the discovery or confession.

3. Cindy is in turmoil-She hears reports of a drowning, the mounting evidence and she starts to loose faith in Casey.

4. Cindy is gullible-Since this video we have seen her come out fighting for Casey as if she is the victim in all of this. Unfortunately when she told the media that Casey was a victim, it crucified her in our eyes. We've heard Cindy plea for help on her 911 calls, we see her here about to crumble, and now, as recent as this email to Lois, emerge as a full on Casey supporter. Why? Cindy believes who is in front of her at that moment. When George told her it was pizza, she believed it was pizza. When Casey told her she was in the hospital helping Zanny after the accident, she believed it. When Casey told her she wasn't pregnant, she believed it. When Casey told her that it wasn't her fault she was in jail, Cindy believed that too. And because of this belief, we see her support Casey as if Caylee is a mere after thought. We often can't see how we really are because we are too close to the situation. Given time and space away from Casey, maybe Cindy will start to break away from the evil spell of manipulation.

George
1. George is complimentary -Hi Beautiful! This makes her smile and giggle. She has all of his attention and she likes it. This only reinforces how she already feels about herself.
2. George is a non confrontationist-He uses analogies rather than cold hard facts. He tells her she is the CEO. This is extreme coddling. She is an adult, age 22. He should not be using any analogies on her. Especially in light of why she is in jail to begin with: a missing daughter. This tells us that logic and reasoning, fact and truth do not work on Casey.

3. George is the negotiator-I can make it happen, you just tell me what you want. Because he is not doing what she wants, she starts throwing another fit. She wants out of jail, not a measly personal visit!!! This also reinforces her selfish attitude. She will keep everyone at a distance until she gets what she wants.

4. George has lost all control-Casey is now in Jose's control. She likes it there. He is the only one she can talk to. He is the only one who understands. Casey makes this known loud and clear because she knows G & C dislike Jose. George tries to hint to Casey that Jose might not have her best interest at heart but Casey denies it. This disrupts her fairy tale. Now Jose is her prince. Over time though, she will remain in her castle, locked up, still awaiting the return of Jose to get an appeal. Jose however will never fight for her best interest, otherwise he would have pushed her to take a plea deal when it was offered. Jose will be off doing book signings and making the media circuit he now criticizes. It's too bad she can't see what her parent's see in Jose. And it's too bad her parents can't see what we see in Casey.............

To Luckycharmsprincess, Do you think if George and Cindy gave Casey a strict good upbringing from the get go it would have made some kind of difference in how she is now? If they had made her accountable, punished her, etc growing up instead of looking the other way all her life? Surely she might have turned out differently? If even just a little? PS Cute doggie.

I can't speak for Luckycharms, but I can say that honestly Casey's problem isn't a lack of discipline, it's a lack of conscience. Stricter punishments would have made her a meaner person towards others, and stricter towards her daughter, but they would not have instilled a conscience in her.

Everyone is assuming that because Casey's parents didn't punish her much as an adult, that they didn't punish her as a child, but that doesn't follow at all.  If there hadn't been some pretty stiff and certain punishments in the beginning, Casey would never have learned to lie at all. 

Kids lie to escape punishment. If there's no punishment, then they'll just say "yes, I broke that glass." or whatever. Casey learned to lie to get out being punished. She may also have learned to imitate Cindy's way of lying to protect the family.

[joesamas mama]

Hi JSM 
 

I see there is something about a video released.  Looks like I need to do some catch up reading and check for new developments...

Hi Muffy, If you are not well, I would recommend NOT watching the video.  It made my blood boil last night.

[MuffyBee]

http://www.harryc.com/australian-slang.htm

I found it....LOLOLOL

    Not appropriate for this thread.

[perriwinkle]

Monken thanks for the Sociopath stuff.  Good to think about.

[CasuallyCool]

Thanks for the comic rellief this morning Casual!

You're welcome.  Happy Friday and have a great weekend.

[Sea Searcher]

I wanted to know what a dunny is also.  Lucinda needs to give us an Aussie - English dictionary! 

A dunny is the same as a loo I believe...hope that helps 

[perriwinkle]

Monken thanks for the Sociopath stuff.  Good to think about.

Also Iron Cowgirl and Luck Charms Princess

[anothermonkey]

Muffy Bee, you've caused a heck of a lot of concern on the forum lately    Glad to see you!!

I've been out with a bout of pneumonia.  It's good to see you, anothermonkey.

I'm glad you're feeling well enough to post. 

[klaasend]

JMO.....seems to me that when CA tells KC that "people are saying Caylee is dead, that she drowned in the pool", it was to get a reaction out of KC since she wasn't telling them anything.  KC then says something like, "that figures" and then realizes that's probably not what she should've said and then goes on about other stuff that is being said in the media, etc.  I stopped watching it right after that.........couldn't stand to keep hearing her sorry a$$. 

Welcome Texanne - it's hard to listen to her isn't it.  Actually hard to listen to all of them, especially now.

[Iron Cowgirl]

Okay Guys, if anyone has ANY doubt that Casey Anthony is a SOCIOPATH at this point; Please read the following! She is absolutely textbook! All of these defining terms are interchangeable: sociopath/psychopath/anti-social personality. if you have not read the book: "The Sociopath Nextdoor" & want to completely understand the mind of a sociopath; PLEASE DO SO! PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From page 107. After listening for almost 25 years to the stories my patients tell me about sociopaths who have invaded and injured their lives, when I am asked, "How can I tell whom not to trust?" the answer I give usually surprises people. The natural expectation is that I will describe some sinister-sounding detail of behavior or snippet of body language or threatening use of language that is the subtle give-away. Instead, I take people aback by assuring them that the tip-off is none of these things, for none of these things is reliably present. Rather, the best clue is, of all things, THE PITY PLAY. The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, PERVERSELY, an appeal to our sympathy.



She goes on to talk about a sociopath she interviewed, asking "What is important in your life?" "What do you want more than anything else?" He told her without a moment's hesitation, "Oh, that's easy. What I like better than anything else is when people feel sorry for me. The thing I really want more than anything else out of life is people's pity."
She was astonished & mystified; Why would this man--why would anyone--wish to be pitied, let alone wish to be pitied ABOVE ALL OTHER AMBITIONS? She came to this conclusion:

From page 108. I realize there is an excellent reason for the sociopathic fondness for PITY. As obvious as the nose on one's face, and just as difficult to see without the help of a mirror, the explanation is THAT GOOD PEOPLE WILL LET PATHETIC INDIVIDUALS GETBY WITH MURDER, so to speak, and therefore any ETsociopath wishing to continue with his game, whatever it happens to be, should play repeatedly for none other than PITY.

More than admiration--more even than fear--pity from good people is carte blanche. When we pity, we are, at least for the moment, defenseless, and like so many of the other essentially positive human characteristics that bind us together in groups--social and professional roles, sexual bonds, regard for the compassionate and the creative, respect for our leaders--our emotional vunerability when we pity is USED AGAINST US BY THOSE WHO HAVE NO CONSCIENCE.
Pity and sympathy are forces for good when they are reactions to deserving people who have fallen on misfortune. But when these sentiments are wrested out of us by the undeserving, by people whose behavior is consistently anti-social, this is a sure sign that something is wrong, a potentially useful DANGER SIGNAL THAT WE OFTEN OVERLOOK.

She gives examples: The violent husband who batters his wife & then moans & cries that he is a poor wretch & cannot control himself & needs her forgiveness. From the Nazi death camps, some guards wanted sympathy for having to endure the "smell" and had difficulty eating their lunch! One man wanted sympathy because he was forced to "break someone's arm"
A good CASEY related ex.: A woman in prison, complained society was preventing her from taking proper care of her children; she was executed for the grisly murder of an elderly woman.

From page 109. In retrospect, sociopathic appeals for pity are preposterous and chilling. Sociopaths have no regard whatsoever for the social contract, but they do know how to use it to their advantage. AND ALL IN ALL, I AM SURE THAT IF THE DEVIL EXISTED, HEWOULD WANT US TO FEEL VERY SORRY FOR HIM.HE

Absolutely chilling.  Makes me think of Ted Bundy.  He would often use crutches and seem defenseless, because most good people are compelled to help someone in need.  It just seems so crazy that such a girl-next-door looking woman like Casey could be homicidal, but everyone thought Ted Bundy was a very attractive and charming man, he just had that unsightly homicidal urge problem...

[anothermonkey]

JMO.....seems to me that when CA tells KC that "people are saying Caylee is dead, that she drowned in the pool", it was to get a reaction out of KC since she wasn't telling them anything.  KC then says something like, "that figures" and then realizes that's probably not what she should've said and then goes on about other stuff that is being said in the media, etc.  I stopped watching it right after that.........couldn't stand to keep hearing her sorry a$$. 

I totally thought the same thing.  And all she got was "that figures".   Casey should have said something like "Mom, we know that isn't true. Don't let comments like that get you down. Caylee is alive!"

[perriwinkle]

Ok.  So if it means truth may come out, do we vote that Lee gets immunity or not.  Now really think about this...  TRUTH.   Coming out.  ???  ANd do we think it really will come out?  Will he throw casey under the bus?

[Sassycat]

Does anyone have the date when the media was reporting that George Anthony left his house early in the morning with an unidentified male in the car.  Could this the the person that 'had dinner' with the Anthony's on Caylee's birthday?

GP - I know what you're talking about, but I'm not sure when it happened.    My first thought is that it was right before Tim got there the first time to help.  But, I'm not sure what that date is, either.    Wish I could help more.

[klaasend]

((edit - Aussie slang is not the topic here))

I found it....LOLOLOL

    Not appropriate for this thread.

Muffy is right.  Aussie slang should not be the topic here.  We could start a thread in the Monkey Lounge for Aussie slang, that might be fun!

[Sassycat]

Monken - Luckycharm -   Your posts are really great and informative.

Also, many of you monkeys have given insightful opinions and facts.   Thanks!

Gotta go make a roast for my dear old parents (in their 80s), BBL.    Stay Warm!   

[Today]

 texanne

[OriginalKat]

Ok.  So if it means truth may come out, do we vote that Lee gets immunity or not.  Now really think about this...  TRUTH.   Coming out.  ???  ANd do we think it really will come out?  Will he throw casey under the bus?

I read the NG scripts this am and there was an expert on there who said LE should really think if the want Lee to have immunity. He said the problem if he does is he could get on the stand and say he killed Caylee and there would be nothing they could do about it. There goes the Casey did it. I don't think Lee would sacrifice his future though (job wise mainly) to do that but he brought up a good point.

I say "no" to all of them. Evdience will speak volumes no matter how many experts they have.

[Golden Oldie]

Hi JSM 
 

I see there is something about a video released.  Looks like I need to do some catch up reading and check for new developments...

Muffy, I'm so glad to see you back and to hear that you're feeling better.  YOU WERE MISSED!   

[Golden Oldie]

Hi JSM 
 

I see there is something about a video released.  Looks like I need to do some catch up reading and check for new developments...

Muffy, I'm so glad to see you're back and to hear that you're feeling better.  YOU WERE MISSED!   

   (Self-edited.  Guess that the breakfast hasn't kicked-in, yet.)

[crazybabyborg]

MUFFY!!!!! It is SO good to see you!! I sent you a message along with my sigh of relief! 

The video will only confirm everything you feel about Casey. I'm not sure it's good therapy for a recovering monkey!!