Caylee Marie Anthony #93 1/16/09 - 1/19/09

[no rose colored glasses]

  WELCOME ncbelle54 

[perriwinkle]

Perriwinkle.. How awful, I too wander what happened to that kid. My husband and I were talking about kids in school the other night. He's 58 and I'm 53 and there were kids that misbehaved for sure, but nothing like the example you gave. I don't ever recall anything beyond talking to much, being the class clown, homework not being done, teasing of other kids, the more I think about it maybe the two of us were on Leave It To Beaver. I just can't imagine teachers having to deal with this from some kids.

Well, it is due to the change in the way children with special needs are being taught.  In the past kids like him would have been institutionalized or kept at home.  There is a huge move to get these kids in the regular classrooms, hoping they will get positive role modeling from other children. Unfortunately, he was more disruptive to others.  The idea is to put kids in the Least restrictive environments possible to let them learn.  He should have been in a diferent placement in my opinion, but I was "just the teacher"  and not the administrator, who didn't want to pay for his needs to be met.  Ultimately it is about money. This child was not being helped by the system at all.

I don't have the answers to why KC is the way she is but I cannot believe that things werent noticed prior to where we pick up the story.  I am just not sure who dropped the ball.  Then again, it is easy to judge in hindsight that others should have seen...  I just don't know.  I do know that KC and only KC is responsible for her actions.  And others, theirs. 

[joesamas mama]

It makes perfect sense to me. I watched my nephew change my family in exactly this way. He isn't a psychopath, but he had ODD, which mimics psychopathy in a lot of ways.

I feel very bad for such families.  Many times the mother asks herslef, "What did I do wrong?  If only I had done ______"  It becomes very overwhelming and raining.  I think many of these parents become depressed because of the hopelessness of their situation.  It is so important to have support from family and professionals IMO.  Also getting involved in a respite care program can allow parents to have a break to re-charge and re-group. 

I wonder if KC's grandparents helped out much with her when she was younger.

Not likely.  Why would they?

Because that's what grandparents usually do.

[GramaMonkey]

I wonder if George or Cindy have ever uttered this sentence?

"WHAT HAVE I DONE?"
   It is hard to imagine any parent of a psychopath who has not asked the question, almost certainly with a sense of desperation, "WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG AS A PARENT TO BRING THIS ABOUT IN MY CHILD?"
   The answer is, possibly nothing. To summarize our sparse data, we do not know why people become psychopaths, but current evidence leads us away from the commonly held idea that the behavior of parents bears sole or even primary responsibilty for the disorder. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT PARENTS AND THE ENVIRONMENT ARE COMPLETELY OFF THE HOOK.  Parenting behavior may not be responsible for the essential ingredients of the disorder, BUT IT MAY HAVE A GREAT DEAL TO DO WITH HOW THE SYNDROME DEVELOPS AND IS EXPRESSED. There is little doubt that poor parenting and unfavorable social and physical environments can greatly exacerbate potential problems and that they play a powerful role in molding the behavioral patterns of children.

I would bet you a dollar to a donut, that CASEY'S ACTIONS...were discussed many many times between George and Cindy.  This I am sure would result in arguments, and could possibly be the main reason that Cindy and George split, as to their difference of opinions.

George came up against the brick wall....Cindy had the last word(s).  George SHUT UP.

[joesamas mama]

Perriwinkle.. How awful, I too wander what happened to that kid. My husband and I were talking about kids in school the other night. He's 58 and I'm 53 and there were kids that misbehaved for sure, but nothing like the example you gave. I don't ever recall anything beyond talking to much, being the class clown, homework not being done, teasing of other kids, the more I think about it maybe the two of us were on Leave It To Beaver. I just can't imagine teachers having to deal with this from some kids.

I used to babysit a kid who'd chase me and his sisters with his father's shotgun, or a baseball bat. I was about 13. The parents kept the house well-stocked with weapons and the 7-year-old son knew where all of them were. I'm just lucky he never actually shot me or his sisters. One of the nights he smeared excrement all over the washing machine. I told the parents, but they acted like this was normal and I was a big wimp for being upset about it. They never had me babysit again. boohoo.

I can't tell if nowadays more kids beat or threaten other kids, than when we were young, or if perhaps people just take it more seriously. My nephew was sent home from school with a police escort dozens of times for threats on other kids or the teacher, or for violent behavior. But I remember kids doing horrible things to me or other kids when I was in school, and the teachers just kind of "didn't notice." Maybe it's not that there are more violent kids now, but that teachers can't ignore them like they used to? I don't know.

Wow, I just didn't know any kids like this, sure some were bullys but nothing like this. I went to Catholic school, grade and high school, I guess we were just afraid of the nuns.

JSM was afraid of nuns too!

[perriwinkle]

I think  we hear about school violence more because of the Columbine stories.  When I was in HS I had to get a restraining order against an EX BF.  He wrote a threatening note to me that he would kill me for seeing another boy.  He wasnt even expelled and the school didn't take him out of my classes or anything. He later killed himself.  I wonder now how serious his threats could have been. 

 This was before columbine.  Now, this behavior would be taken VERy seriously and dealt with in a more harsh manner. 

Wow, this is like, get to know perri day!

 

[peanut]

I wonder if George or Cindy have ever uttered this sentence?

"WHAT HAVE I DONE?"
   It is hard to imagine any parent of a psychopath who has not asked the question, almost certainly with a sense of desperation, "WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG AS A PARENT TO BRING THIS ABOUT IN MY CHILD?"
   The answer is, possibly nothing. To summarize our sparse data, we do not know why people become psychopaths, but current evidence leads us away from the commonly held idea that the behavior of parents bears sole or even primary responsibilty for the disorder. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT PARENTS AND THE ENVIRONMENT ARE COMPLETELY OFF THE HOOK.  Parenting behavior may not be responsible for the essential ingredients of the disorder, BUT IT MAY HAVE A GREAT DEAL TO DO WITH HOW THE SYNDROME DEVELOPS AND IS EXPRESSED. There is little doubt that poor parenting and unfavorable social and physical environments can greatly exacerbate potential problems and that they play a powerful role in molding the behavioral patterns of children.

I would bet you a dollar to a donut, that CASEY'S ACTIONS...were discussed many many times between George and Cindy.  This I am sure would result in arguments, and could possibly be the main reason that Cindy and George split, as to their difference of opinions.

George came up against the brick wall....Cindy had the last word(s).  George SHUT UP.

yep. he talks about it with le...that when she gets going noone can stop her. and that it gets worse the harder you try. i dont know about anyone else but having listened to all the interviews done in this case i can totally see how noone can get her to shut that yappy mouth of hers...not even le or any of the lawyers theyve had. its no coincidence to me that she chose to be the 'media' person.

[no rose colored glasses]

Perriwinkle.. How awful, I too wander what happened to that kid. My husband and I were talking about kids in school the other night. He's 58 and I'm 53 and there were kids that misbehaved for sure, but nothing like the example you gave. I don't ever recall anything beyond talking to much, being the class clown, homework not being done, teasing of other kids, the more I think about it maybe the two of us were on Leave It To Beaver. I just can't imagine teachers having to deal with this from some kids.

I used to babysit a kid who'd chase me and his sisters with his father's shotgun, or a baseball bat. I was about 13. The parents kept the house well-stocked with weapons and the 7-year-old son knew where all of them were. I'm just lucky he never actually shot me or his sisters. One of the nights he smeared excrement all over the washing machine. I told the parents, but they acted like this was normal and I was a big wimp for being upset about it. They never had me babysit again. boohoo.

I can't tell if nowadays more kids beat or threaten other kids, than when we were young, or if perhaps people just take it more seriously. My nephew was sent home from school with a police escort dozens of times for threats on other kids or the teacher, or for violent behavior. But I remember kids doing horrible things to me or other kids when I was in school, and the teachers just kind of "didn't notice." Maybe it's not that there are more violent kids now, but that teachers can't ignore them like they used to? I don't know.

Wow, I just didn't know any kids like this, sure some were bullys but nothing like this. I went to Catholic school, grade and high school, I guess we were just afraid of the nuns.

JSM was afraid of nuns too!

It could get quite scary at times.

[Lovinlife]

ITA perri...KC is legally an adult.  Forget that she was immature at the time, she was/is still an adult.  Shoulda, woulda, coulda does not change the fact that a precious 2yr old was murdered.  Just maybe something can be learned from all this heinousness.

[Bearlyhere]

I LOVE listening to Dana's show and reading Red's blogs.  Scared Monkey's Rocks.  How did we get so lucky?

 

[Ms Sam]

Hi Ms Sam, welcome to the cage! 

hello all!!!im new to the post.i enjoy reading all the post here,all very good ones!!!

Welcome ncbelle54 

Greetings All Monkeys!

Has anyone had any new word about this??

Quote:
Breaking: Court documents just handed over to the defense in the Caylee murder case will be released any moment now.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/nancy.grace/

[Fuzzball]

It makes perfect sense to me. I watched my nephew change my family in exactly this way. He isn't a psychopath, but he had ODD, which mimics psychopathy in a lot of ways.

I feel very bad for such families.  Many times the mother asks herslef, "What did I do wrong?  If only I had done ______"  It becomes very overwhelming and raining.  I think many of these parents become depressed because of the hopelessness of their situation.  It is so important to have support from family and professionals IMO.  Also getting involved in a respite care program can allow parents to have a break to re-charge and re-group. 

I wonder if KC's grandparents helped out much with her when she was younger.

Not likely.  Why would they?

I don't know if Casey's grandparents lived close enough to be involved when she was young, but my mother's parents lived around the corner from us, and esp my grandma was and always will be one of the most important people to me. They were very involved with my life.

That's really nice. I wish everyone had that kind of situation. Mine lived a couple hours away, and I saw them twice a year, if that often. They met once at my parents' wedding, didn't even go to each others' funerals.

I'm looking to find where the Pleseas lived before they went to the nursing home. They would have been in their sixties when Casey was little, and I think I remember reading that they were one town over.

[Wyks]

I also want to add: There is no way that George & Cindy could not have known that something was "wrong" with their daughter. Unfortunately, there is little that could be done about it; even if they had wanted to.

   Many people feel uncomfortable applying the term PSYCHOPATH to children. They cite ethical and practical problems with pinning what amounts to a perjorative label on a youngster. But clinical experience and empirical research clearly indicate that the raw materials of the disorder can and do exist in children. PSYCHOPATHY DOES NOT SUDDENLY SPRING, UNANNOUNCED, INTO EXISTENCE IN ADULTHOOD. The precursors of the profile first reveal themselves early in life.
   Clinical and anecdotal evidence indicates that MOST PARENTS OF CHILDREN LATER DIAGNOSED AS PSYCHOPATHS WERE PAINFULLY AWARE THAT SOMETHING WAS SERIOUSLY WRONG EVEN BEFORE THE CHILD STARTED SCHOOL. Although all children begin their development unrestrained by social boundaries, certain children remain stubbornly immune to socializing pressures. They are inexplicably "DIFFERENT" from other normal children--MORE DIFFICULT, WILLFUL, AGGRESIVE, AND DECEITFUL; harder to "relate to" or get close to; less susceptible to influence and instruction and always testing the limits of social tolerance. 

When I was a special education teacher I taught student in K-2 multi-catergorical.  I had many different children (severe autism, CP, Learning diabilities, ADD/ADHD mental handicaps) in my time and only 2 that stand out to me in EXTREME behavior.  They were dignosed with SEVERE Emotional Handicaps.  One in particular frightens me to this day, and makes me wonder where he is now.  At the time he was a second grader.  He was very violent.  Throwing, hitting, tantrums, self abuse, wetting himself and defecating almost on demand.  I was pregnant at the time I was teaching him and one day, I came home with his blood, feces, and urine on my clothing following a long day with his extreme behavior and little support from my administration.  My husband made me go on maternity leave early due to the need for safety for our own unborn child.  I think about his parents and how they were limited in mental ability and also had no way of fully understand how to deal with his behavior.  He controled the home.  They were exhausted from his behavior and his games, but they had no very little support from anyone outside, even though they DID seek the help.  FOr one reason or another medicaid and insurance would only pay for inpatient care for so long and they had no money to get help.

Relating this to Kc, she probably also controled the home from a young age.  She obviously was not like this young man but her behaviour was draining none the less.  Parents of children with strong wills often get tired of the constant battles and choose to give in on things that do not seem to matter, but then the lines get very blurry on what DOES matter.  The child begins to control more and more, knowing their parents will give in.  THe parents feel guilty for this and so they make take the blame for the child's problems and then begin to cover up the problems instead of getting help.  Children like this many times are born and not made, but the behaviors get worse when not dealt with appropriately, many times out of the parents own shame and guilt

Hope this makes sense.       

Monken and Perri, very well written posts, and both are spot on! 

And when a parent of such a child does go for help, very often there are years of confusion as to what exactly IS the problem.  Parents at their wits end, seek the moments of peace while this child is at school.  Teachers at their wits end, seek answers and involvement from the parents.  Doctors try different meds and approaches until finally some answers and relief is found.  With cooperation between the doctor, parents and teacher, and siblings/family, the child's behavior might begin to improve.  Only to go back to 1st base when a new school year begins with a new teacher, and/or the child hits a new developmental phase and matures.  Then it begins all over again.  Sigh. 

As a mother of such a child, who was diagnosed at age 7 with ADHD, conduct disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, life was... lived on the edge, at all times, except when he was asleep.  Parents aren't the only ones who despair, run out of patience, lose control, get to their wits end.  Teachers and staff as well.  At one annual meeting for my oldest, because they couldn't think of anything that would work with my son, it was suggested to me that in the afternoons they place him with the janitor.     As if!!  I told them they needed to rethink that plan. 

When my son was 13, he went into a group home, because he was so wild and out of control I could not deal with him by myself.  While there, he was taken out of therapy because 'it didn't seem to be helping', as I was told.  Very nervously, I explained over and again, that a child with conduct disorder, left untreated, could possibly become as an adult, a sociopath/psychopath/anti-social personality.  Take your pick of labels, they basically mean the same thing.  They weren't listening to me, after all, I was 'just the mom who couldn't control her child'.  And what we have today is a 28 yr old sociopath.   

Relating all this back to Casey?  In part I can sooooooooooo understand how the A's must be feeling helpless, at their wit's end, despairing of what to do next.  Perhaps hoping that the worst case scenario would never happen.  Not sure if they feel any of that.  What it seems to me is that they've turned a blind eye to Casey from very earlier on, perhaps in their denial of what she has become.  That doesn't excuse them.  It's easy for me to say, a bystander with benefit of hindsight, yet IMO, I would have kept a hugely close eye on what was going on with Caylee.  Especially given the fact they seem to have lost control with Casey.  At the very least, IMO, they could have alerted LE at the first sign of anything gone weird with how Caylee was being treated by Casey.  But that's with hindsight and all.  Am thinking the A's simply were hoping for the best.   

[no rose colored glasses]

I wonder if George or Cindy have ever uttered this sentence?

"WHAT HAVE I DONE?"
   It is hard to imagine any parent of a psychopath who has not asked the question, almost certainly with a sense of desperation, "WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG AS A PARENT TO BRING THIS ABOUT IN MY CHILD?"
   The answer is, possibly nothing. To summarize our sparse data, we do not know why people become psychopaths, but current evidence leads us away from the commonly held idea that the behavior of parents bears sole or even primary responsibilty for the disorder. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT PARENTS AND THE ENVIRONMENT ARE COMPLETELY OFF THE HOOK.  Parenting behavior may not be responsible for the essential ingredients of the disorder, BUT IT MAY HAVE A GREAT DEAL TO DO WITH HOW THE SYNDROME DEVELOPS AND IS EXPRESSED. There is little doubt that poor parenting and unfavorable social and physical environments can greatly exacerbate potential problems and that they play a powerful role in molding the behavioral patterns of children.

I would bet you a dollar to a donut, that CASEY'S ACTIONS...were discussed many many times between George and Cindy.  This I am sure would result in arguments, and could possibly be the main reason that Cindy and George split, as to their difference of opinions.

George came up against the brick wall....Cindy had the last word(s).  George SHUT UP.

I think you are so right on that, there were many times when we had quite the difference of opinions on raising our two daughters, I can just imagine the discussions btw George and Cindy. The fight btw Cindy and Casey on Father's Day, Cindy might have completely lost it when she supposedly put her hands around Casey's neck, I'm not condoning Cindy's behavior but geez, how much bs can one take, and I'm sure the stealing from Cindy's elderly parents was just about it for her.

[Bearlyhere]

Hi you all Im still in Texas, I havent seen Sea Searcher for two days - anyone know about him???  And Boo???

(Checking for Sea's shoes under my bed) No, A-1, I have not seen him.  Maybe he has the creeping crud that is going around the cage.

Sea, I miss you, darlin'.

 

[no rose colored glasses]

I think  we hear about school violence more because of the Columbine stories.  When I was in HS I had to get a restraining order against an EX BF.  He wrote a threatening note to me that he would kill me for seeing another boy.  He wasnt even expelled and the school didn't take him out of my classes or anything. He later killed himself.  I wonder now how serious his threats could have been. 

 This was before columbine.  Now, this behavior would be taken VERy seriously and dealt with in a more harsh manner. 

Wow, this is like, get to know perri day!

 

I find it very interesting all these stories. I really have lived a boring life, and it was very sheltered growing up.

[Monken]

Thanks for all the insightful responses guys! 

ANOTHER SOBERING THOUGHT

   Virtually all the evidence on the effectiveness of treatment for psychopaths is based on programs for people in prison or psychiatric facilities or in trouble with the law. Many of these programs are intensive, well thought out, and carried out under reasonably good conditions. AND STILL THEY ARE INEFFECTIVE.
   Even if some program were effective in changing the attitudes and behaviors of psychopaths, there would be no way of using it to deal with the millions of psychopaths not in custody or court-mandated to enter treatment. There is little or no chance that any on-the-street psychopaths would even contemplate entering such a program. AND SOCIETY HAS NO MEANS OF FORCING THEM TO DO SO. 

[Mary]

I think it would be cheaper for them to hold the trial in Orlando but to choose
the jury (16) from Jacksonville, they would have to sequester??? them. But I think they would do that anyway. It would be the same Judge I think even if
Move it.

[klaasend]

Hi you all Im still in Texas, I havent seen Sea Searcher for two days - anyone know about him???  And Boo???

(Checking for Sea's shoes under my bed) No, A-1, I have not seen him.  Maybe he has the creeping crud that is going around the cage.

Sea, I miss you, darlin'.

 

Sea Searcher had a number of very sick family members if I remember correctly.  I hope they and he are ok.

[perriwinkle]

Wyks,
I am sorry you have had such a hard time with your child.  Who is now an adult.  Sometimes there just are No answers.  Even when you did and do the right thing.  ((((((((hugs))))))))). 


I think we do not have the whole picture of he A's and therefore we can only see what the media wants us to see.  They very well may be doing one thing in public and another all together in private.  Time will tell.