Natalee Case Discussion #795 1/23/09 - 1/27/09

[wreck]

Nice discussion this evening. I just feel you can't get the REAL picture until you take EVERYTHING posted in it's proper timing and context. Janet has done a great job in giving us recaps and quotes, but; I wish it could all be thoroughly chronicled from about Summer '07 until the present in regards to The Persistence and it's aftermath. Who interjected themselves and WHEN. WHEN and exactly WHAT the family were informed of.   From what I see, I have to agree with the Freebirds and their position. It is the only clear and concise account that has been given. They are not putting "faith" in anyone -- only giving us actual statements from the players. -JMO

[Blue Moon]

This is worth rereading.  Some questions here for Jossy----WHAT HAPPENED TO ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AND WHAT WAS THE IDENTIFIED ITEMS IN THAT POND AND WHO FROM THE PERSISTENCE TOLD JOSSY ALL THIS INFORMATION?

Here is the link:  http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3363.msg455841#msg455841
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Re: Natalee Case Discussion #769 9/15/08 through
« Reply #264 on: September 16, 2008, 03:05:24 PM »
   
Quote from: johan555 on September 16, 2008, 02:40:01 PM



Quote from: angelalala on September 16, 2008, 02:25:46 PM
From Jossy...

Key witness reveals what happened 4:05 am at Monserat

Paulus and Joran were “looking” for something on the side of the road

ORANJESTAD(AAN):  Last week, DIARIO published the latest information regarding the key witness, who came forward to disclose everything he witnessed on May 2005 from his house, which is situated in the neighborhood of the Nacional Soccer field, close to the Monserat pond.

However the witness was afraid to come forward to the Police and local Prosecutor, because of the prejudice in the Prosecutor Office, which is alive and growing each day.
He did give a statement to the Prosecutor, but to certain extent. The more important and key details he revealed to the American investigators.

The American investigators listened very carefully to his story and immediately felt that he was telling the truth. They then asked him if he was willing to go to the States and pass a polygraph test.

The witness was tested by John S. Swartz, a renowned professional in this field, and the test revealed that he was telling the truth! Finally shedding some light on the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in 2005.

Last week, after months of following the new developments, DIARIO published the first part of the witness’ statement. This statement that was already in Prosecutor Mos’s hands.

DIARIO opted to wait until after the FBI sent the results of the polygraph test and their investigation to Holland, before publishing the second part of the statement, considering that Holland would send a copy to Aruba.

THE WITNESS’ STATEMENT

On May 30th, 2005 he was sleeping in his room; when he was awaken by the alarming sound of barking dogs. He opened his eyes and checked his alarm clock; it was 4:05 am.

He got up and listening to where the barking was coming from, he went in the living room and peeked thru the window to find out why the dogs sounded so alarmed.

Under the streetlight, he saw someone walking towards his house, from the Nacional Soccer field, close to the Monserat pond and hotel area.

While the person was walking under another streetlight, he could clearly see the person. It was undoubtedly a man, notably tall, slim, Caucasian, with short and dark hair, relatively young and he looked like a Dutch citizen.

He could see his profile and one side of his face.

He was wearing a red t-shirt and light colored pants. The witness noticed by the way the person was limping, that he was missing his right sneaker or shoe. He also noted that the person was breathing extremely hard, as if he just had been running very hard for a long time. His chest was heaving.

WET AND MUDDY CLOTHES

The witness stated (and probably also in the lie-detector test), that the person clothes were wet and that he also saw a muddy stripe on his chest, more or less about 5 centimeters above his chest.

The muddy stripe on his chest clearly showed that he was completely wet.

At first glance, the witness though that the person maybe had been in a fight with someone, and he was running not to get beat up. But his face showed no bruises or blood.

But because he didn’t look back not even to check if someone might be following him and just kept walking fast with his head down, the witness thought he did something other that fighting.

The person walked past his house, and kept walking, until he was out of sight, and he never raised his head or looked back, and just kept walking in the hotel’s direction.

This happened in about one minute.

NEW INFORMATION

After the witness saw the person walk past his house and was out of sight, he sat down in his living room for about 5 minutes.

He then noticed a car driving slowly, coming from the hotel area. Behind the wheel was a middle-aged, Caucasian man. Next to him, the witness saw the young man that was walking past his house a few minutes earlier.

The witness said they were driving a red jeep, and that they were driving extremely slow. He stated to the American investigators that was clearly that the driver and the passenger were looking for something on the floor. He said that the car just keep going in the direction of the Monserat pond.

HE RECOGNIZED THE DRIVER

According to the witness, in the following weeks he recognized the young man as Joran van der Sloot, when his pictures started to circulate in the press, and that the disappearance of Natalee Holloway became an international media frenzy.

He also recognized the driver as Paulus van der Sloot, Joran’s father. The witness stated that, that was everything he saw and that nothing more happened.

The question in everyone mind is: What were Paulus and Joran looking for on that road? The fact that the witness passed the polygraph test and is telling the truth is enough to focus the attention on that.

Of course the public wants to know why this witness didn’t come forward in 2005.

The witness was afraid of the consequences of his statement, since he was well aware that Paulus van der Sloot has powerful connections in the Prosecutors Office. Paulus is a lawyer, and he was studying to become a judge.

Knowing that the justice system in Aruba is totally in Dutch hands, he felt compelled to keep his mouth shut. This went on for more than 2 years, and in the end of 2007, he felt the need to reveal what he saw that day from his house.

The witness hired a lawyer to defend him, because in such a complicated case, even the witness has to be prepared for any eventuality, and also for guidance.

Meanwhile American investigators, with the consent from local authorities, did a sonar test at the Monserat pond in the beginning of this year, when the water level was low.

DIARIO was informed that this test discovered 15 objects underwater, and that only 3 could be defined.

A polygraph (popularly referred to as a lie detector) is an instrument that measures and records several physiological responses such as blood pressure, pulse, respiration and skin conductivity while the subject is asked and answers a series of questions, on the theory that false answers will produce distinctive measurements. The polygraph measures physiological changes caused by the sympathetic nervous system during questioning.

The 48 year old witness passed this test with flying colors, indicating that everything he saw that dawn, close to the Monserat pond, is true.

DIARIO presumes that the Prosecutor’s Office received this statement from Holland, and just in case they didn’t, they can read it today for free and begin to do their homework.             



The first part of the article is a recap, but the second part regards Joran and Paulus searching by the pond. That hasn't come out, and we are not waiting on the FBI, we are going forward with what we have found out from this and other witnesses.
 
Joss

[Keepthefaith]

Thanx Kermit!Headed out for a bit...

[Magnolia]

Nice discussion this evening. I just feel you can't get the REAL picture until you take EVERYTHING posted in it's proper timing and context. Janet has done a great job in giving us recaps and quotes, but; I wish it could all be thoroughly chronicled from about Summer '07 until the present in regards to The Persistence and it's aftermath. Who interjected themselves and WHEN. WHEN and exactly WHAT the family were informed of.   From what I see, I have to agree with the Freebirds and their position. It is the only clear and concise account that has been given. They are not putting "faith" in anyone -- only giving us actual statements from the players. -JMO

I agree, Wreck.  It is easy to sit back now and say that Freebirds
coulda, shoulda done whatever.  From all indications they did what
they thought was the right thing to do and have consistently been
here to back up their collective decision.
Kyle and Caps both tucked tail and ran.....never backed up anything
and Caps made some statements that sounded more childish than
anything else.  For instance....Natalee was chopped into little pieces.
There has just been too much to lay it all out line by line.
There are still a few questions out there.  Like who put Silvetti and
Scheaffer in touch with Tim Miller?
I think we know enough to make a logical decision about who is on
the up and up and who is crooked as a dog's hind leg.
Kermit says that Beth knows and that is all that is important to me.

[SS]

Just about any way except the way that it was made public.  It was made public by Kermit posting pictures with clues that we guessed about until she reappeared to tell us if we were correct or not.  It was a very long time before the rest of the Freebirds group came forward to support Kermit.  The issue with the Persistence is huge, with many far reaching implications.  It isn't a cryptic guessing game.  What was wrong with Freebirds simply writing a complete statement as they have done about many other things and posting it here for all of us to read?  All of the facts presented at once.  Why a need for the guessing a game?  And why a need for so many people to lose friendships and relationships?  I would also have appreciated an opportunity to read a statement from the group of Freebirds that were in opposition.  I personally would have liked to look at the facts and the opinions without the fighting and bashing that resulted

A. Kyle Kingman was threatening the Freebirds and that is why the document was withheld.
B. Beth gave her permission for the document that was sent to her to expose the Aruba cover-up.
C. I wasn't trying to give you a guessing game, and in fact, the freebirds gave you information no one but us were privy too and of course the Executive producers that Kyle showed the footage too and Louis Schafer and Tim Tehran had knowlege of that footage and chose to try to sell it.
D. I have continually been here and so have many of the freebirds to answer your questions with the utmost civility. I can't say that about the people who oppose what was posted. That is something you need to address with those posters as to why they are so rude and attack me and the Freebirds, rather then present their evidence that is contrary. None of them have done that.

Remember, the information being posted is not our opinions, but facts of evidence that you nor Beth, nor Dave, nor anyone would have known about except the ROV was filming them. Those are facts. And to which was shared rather then covered-up.

Kermit - I am not attacking you.  I have no reason to do so.  I am disappointed in the way the Freebirds handled the exposure of what took place on Persistence.  It was presented as a guessing game over a period of several weeks. I appreciate that Beth gave her permission to expose the coverup, but if there was a coverup involving fraud, public trust, and public finances, it was not up to Beth to determine when and if the questionable activities on the Persistence should be exposed.  If what you have told is correct, it should have been exposed immediately as an issue of public trust and because it was an attempt to defraud the public. 

I am concerned that the Freebirds feud became the larger SM feud and I don't feel that the resulting casualties were necessary.  I happen to agree that the activities on the Persistence were deplorable.  The way it was dragged through this forum was not necessary. 

I am concerned that both sides of this Freebird issues claim to be speaking for Beth and Dave, yet Beth and Dave have remained silent.  I don't want to be told what Beth and Dave said.  I have heard too many people claiming to be speaking for Beth and Dave, and Jug.   I want to see or hear for myself what Beth and Dave think about the activities of the Persistence in relation to Natalee and her possible remains being in that cage.  There are people on this forum who have given years of their time in an effort to find justice for Natalee.  They deserve more than this.  As far as the financial aspects and money raising activities of the Persistence voyage, that actually has nothing to do with Dave and Beth.  That is a legal issue involving Silvetti, Schafer, and unfortunately Tim Miller with TES.  I want to know what is being done through legal actions.  If nothing is being done, then why not?  The issue with Kyle and the photographs is an additional issue with Kyle and the FBI, if he was in fact withholding evidence from a crime investigation and attempting to make financial gains.  What has been done and if nothing, why not?

I am very weary of hearing that the FBI thinks this, Beth says this, Dave says that, Jug said this, Silvetti said that.  Everything that we have heard (from all sides of this issue) about what these people have said is nothing more than hearsay.  None of us have yet to see or hear an official statement one way or the other from the FBI, Beth, Dave, or Tim Miller.  Nothing has come directly to us.  Yes, the Freebirds have come to SM and made every attempt to answer all questions.  The bottom line remains that they are not the principles in this scenario and anything coming from them is still hearsay or their own interpretation of what took place.

I personally believe that this issue remains an issue because the issue has yet to be resolved.  We have all been asked to believe the words of various people.  The accusations which the Freebirds have brought forward are huge issues.  They are issues beyond this forum or any other forum.  I want to know what is being done with the legalities of these issues and if it isn't enough for Dave and Beth to take action or speak out, then maybe it isn't enough for us to even be concerned about.  We have seen Beth and Dave go to the mat over issues over Natalee, why are they silent now?

 

[Kermit]

The scurrilous and unwarranted attacks and those who are engaging in those attacks would  better serve their agendas by bringing a higher standard to this forum and other forums wherever they participate with their proof that supports their viewpoint or evidence.

To do otherwise serves no purpose. After all, the goal is justice for Miss Natalee Holloway.

[Anna]

Who exactly are these "American Investigators" that Jossy refers to?  Silvetti and the crew of the Persistence?  Is this witness why Silvetti lost interst in the trap or what?

[Keepthefaith]

O/T Kermit.Are you familiar with the President Carter years?

[Icehawk]

Justice For Natalee [/b]

[Keepthefaith]

O/T Kermit.Are you familiar with the President Carter years?

Seriously.My Father went to school with a gentleman that carried the briefcase for President Carter.Around May or June of 1980!Was just curious if you happen to know him?Know your busy but just answer whenever!

[Blue Moon]

Who exactly are these "American Investigators" that Jossy refers to?  Silvetti and the crew of the Persistence?  Is this witness why Silvetti lost interst in the trap or what?

That is my question.  I don't remember reading this before.  Maybe I did but it didn't click what was being said.  American investigators HAD to have meant the ones from the Persistence who did the sonar scan.  JMO

[Blue Moon]

Another thing:

Meanwhile American investigators, with the consent from local authorities, did a sonar test at the Monserat pond in the beginning of this year, when the water level was low.

DIARIO was informed that this test discovered 15 objects underwater, and that only 3 could be defined.


What was the 3 objects that could be defined?  Was there anymore articles after this one from Jossy? 

[texasmom]

The scurrilous and unwarranted attacks and those who are engaging in those attacks would  better serve their agendas by bringing a higher standard to this forum and other forums wherever they participate with their proof that supports their viewpoint or evidence.

To do otherwise serves no purpose. After all, the goal is justice for Miss Natalee Holloway.

AMEN!  JUSTICE FOR NATALEE!!!!!

[Kermit]

Kermit - I am not attacking you.  I have no reason to do so.  I am disappointed in the way the Freebirds handled the exposure of what took place on Persistence.  It was presented as a guessing game over a period of several weeks.

Our group was being lied too and also threatened.
So if it seemed like a guessing game; it was not intentional.
I know for a fact, many of the monkeys are really good and figured out many times exactly what was cryptically being said. You and wreck and magnolia and Janet and keepingtheFaith were/are sharp.
So are many of the monkeys, just not naming all of them at this time is all. So don't anyone take offense.
I think I have always pointed out when someone was correct.

I appreciate that Beth gave her permission to expose the coverup, but if there was a coverup involving fraud, public trust, and public finances, it was not up to Beth to determine when and if the questionable activities on the Persistence should be exposed.  If what you have told is correct, it should have been exposed immediately as an issue of public trust and because it was an attempt to defraud the public.

Yeah, that IS and WAS my statement to good ol Kyle. To which he continued threats.
 

I am concerned that the Freebirds feud became the larger SM feud and I don't feel that the resulting casualties were necessary. 

We do not feel that way. We/I knew who was doing what and when and all that. Not necessary to go into it.

I happen to agree that the activities on the Persistence were deplorable.  The way it was dragged through this forum was not necessary.

I believe I gave Kyle the opportunity to stop lying. He chose another path.
Because I was bringing the message a few didn't want to believe, I was called a number of names, insulted, lied about and it continues. Behavior is truth.
 

I am concerned that both sides of this Freebird issues claim to be speaking for Beth and Dave, yet Beth and Dave have remained silent.  I don't want to be told what Beth and Dave said. 

As I have said, the proof of whether or not Beth gave her permission is and has been given to the proper people.

I have heard too many people claiming to be speaking for Beth and Dave, and Jug.   I want to see or hear for myself what Beth and Dave think about the activities of the Persistence in relation to Natalee and her possible remains being in that cage.  There are people on this forum who have given years of their time in an effort to find justice for Natalee.  They deserve more than this. 

Here's my thinking on this. The grieving parents don't owe anyone anything. They have a great loss.
If anyone can help in anyway to bring their daughter home where she belongs in the USA, then that
is the goal I am involved in. Those who cause distrust, call or email the grieving parents with their petty
stuff are insenstive. I got the yes response, freebirds were informed and that is all that is needed. I don't need for them to say it again and again and again and then oh please go get my back for me at Scared Monkeys because a couple of posters are being outright difficult and slandering me.

I never took on this endeavor to find Miss Natalee thinking the parents would have my back.

BUT as I said, the people that needed the information are well aware.

As far as the financial aspects and money raising activities of the Persistence voyage, that actually has nothing to do with Dave and Beth.  That is a legal issue involving Silvetti, Schafer, and unfortunately Tim Miller with TES.  I want to know what is being done through legal actions.  If nothing is being done, then why not?  The issue with Kyle and the photographs is an additional issue with Kyle and the FBI, if he was in fact withholding evidence from a crime investigation and attempting to make financial gains.  What has been done and if nothing, why not?

Well, the FBI and John Q. Kelly have the evidence. Kyle told me in an email that the FBI did contact him AFTER the Freebirds sent the FBI the evidence.

I am very weary of hearing that the FBI thinks this, Beth says this, Dave says that, Jug said this, Silvetti said that.  Everything that we have heard (from all sides of this issue) about what these people have said is nothing more than hearsay. 

Not true. I have emails as proof and evidence and I have posts. It's all documented.

None of us have yet to see or hear an official statement one way or the other from the FBI, Beth, Dave, or Tim Miller.  Nothing has come directly to us.  Yes, the Freebirds have come to SM and made every attempt to answer all questions.  The bottom line remains that they are not the principles in this scenario and anything coming from them is still hearsay or their own interpretation of what took place.

Not true. The Freebirds have the evidence and the proof. Even though, *some* individuals want you to believe we have taken "out of context" the statements/pictures etc. It is untrue.

I personally believe that this issue remains an issue because the issue has yet to be resolved.  We have all been asked to believe the words of various people.  The accusations which the Freebirds have brought forward are huge issues.  They are issues beyond this forum or any other forum.  I want to know what is being done with the legalities of these issues and if it isn't enough for Dave and Beth to take action or speak out, then maybe it isn't enough for us to even be concerned about.  We have seen Beth and Dave go to the mat over issues over Natalee, why are they silent now?

I can only tell you from my own experience, it's not like I knew what Kenneth Starr was going to do next.
But when you see the evidence at some point in time being exposed, then you know. Whatever the families strategies are or not is up to them I guess.

What I hear you saying is you want some concrete proof that the Freebirds are telling you the truth because for you it's a he said she said kind of case for you and if only Beth or Dave would say something that supports what the Freebirds have said, then you'd be a peace.  I'm not sure how to resolve your dilemma, other then to be respectfully respond with the truth of what I know. That's all I can do.

[Magnolia]

The scurrilous and unwarranted attacks and those who are engaging in those attacks would  better serve their agendas by bringing a higher standard to this forum and other forums wherever they participate with their proof that supports their viewpoint or evidence.

To do otherwise serves no purpose. After all, the goal is justice for Miss Natalee Holloway.

AMEN!  JUSTICE FOR NATALEE!!!!!

TM, you were a chicken tonight.

[Kermit]

O/T Kermit.Are you familiar with the President Carter years?

Seriously.My Father went to school with a gentleman that carried the briefcase for President Carter.Around May or June of 1980!Was just curious if you happen to know him?Know your busy but just answer whenever!

Yes I have met him.

[Kermit]

Mike guarded Pat Nixon.
Mostly though, the detail changed from one to another guarding the family.

[Keepthefaith]

O/T Kermit.Are you familiar with the President Carter years?

Seriously.My Father went to school with a gentleman that carried the briefcase for President Carter.Around May or June of 1980!Was just curious if you happen to know him?Know your busy but just answer whenever!

Yes I have met him.

Was a funny story.I was a kid, Mt.St.Helens Blew and President Carter came to the Middle that i later attended.My father wanted to take us to see President Carter and when he was walking by.Lo and behold my dads high school buddy was carrying his President Carter's briefcase.Heard he was quite the Football player in College!

[Keepthefaith]

Mike guarded Pat Nixon.
Mostly though, the detail changed from one to another guarding the family.

The Gentleman i'm talking about is Bob.

[hotping]

Hey Kermit......We have all been concerned for You....It's good to see You!