Natalee Case Discussion #798 2/1/09 - 2/5/09

[klaasend]

Klaasend, Thank you for reposting the photos. 

Lifesong, I wanted to respond with a little of my reasoning before this got too old.  I have to respectfully disagree with Kyle, Klaasend and the big hammer.  But that is what we do here.  We theorize and discuss till we prove or disprove.  First, I want you to consider a triangle with a 42" hypotenuse.  That would be approximately a triangle 30" x 30" x 42".  Lay it out on your bed or floor and see how much of your body fits in it.  My height is the same as Natalee's and I can't get much more than my head in it.  Now if the trap is a 7' 700 pound trap like the Alaskan crab fishermen use http://www.fishex.com/galleries/king-crab-fishing/photo-gallery.html you can enlarge that triangle in one grid to 42" x 42" x 60".  Even that is not enough space to put most of Natalee's body, you could maybe get head to butt.  Size is important, and no reference is given, so how can anyone say without a doubt, but it doesn't seem practical to me. 

That link to the photo gallery also shows what size vessel and crane would be necessary to move the trap.  The ship would probably have a crew of at least five.  There would have had to have been many phone calls made to arrange for that type of disposal.  Think of the money the captain would want for sacrificing his trap and fuel and paying for the silence of the crew as well.  Most people would want to keep the disposal as simple as possible.  The other possibility would be for divers to take the body down 90' and place it in the trap and they would not go out aimlessly swimming around the ocean floor looking for a lost trap. 

Now on to the ziplock evidence bags.  Here in the states we would expect photos to be taken of the scene before during and after evidence removal.  Something of know size should be placed next to the objects.  All trained divers carry a knife and that would have been convenient to place as comparison.  I need to see those photographs.  Here is an article that speaks to the quality of underwater photograhy.  http://www.seafriends.org.nz/phgraph/water.htm  These photos, we are to assume, were all taken with the ROV.  I would not expect the same sharpness you would get with a well lit digital photograph.  I find it hard to beleive the clarity.       

Thanks Monkey Mia!

Ok consider this.  First, the example KYLE created does indeed show only head to butt fitting in the cage (in a straight line).  Also consider the possibility that the cage was already there, then something place in it instead of the cage actually being transported on a boat with the purpose of disposing of Natalee.

If you are referring to the photo with the plastic zip lock bags and clarity, I couldn't agree with you more.  Something is not right about that photo.

[Monkey Mia]

Please excuse my spelling.  I still have a headache from too much computer time.

[Monkey Mia]

Klaasend, I am considering Kyles superimposed image and with a 42" hypotenuse it does not work.  And like I said, how would they find the trap in 90" of water.  Does Aruba keep the coordinates of every lost trap?  How would they find one?

[Magnolia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

[Monkey Mia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

[klaasend]

Klaasend, I am considering Kyles superimposed image and with a 42" hypotenuse it does not work.  And like I said, how would they find the trap in 90" of water.  Does Aruba keep the coordinates of every lost trap?  How would they find one?

Thanks!  I'm not disagreeing with you just picking your brain.  I don't think the trap itself (that trap) is something the Aruban fishermen would use, more likely it fell off a large fishing vessle passing by.

[Monkey Mia]

Klaasend, I am considering Kyles superimposed image and with a 42" hypotenuse it does not work.  And like I said, how would they find the trap in 90" of water.  Does Aruba keep the coordinates of every lost trap?  How would they find one?

Thanks!  I'm not disagreeing with you just picking your brain.  I don't think the trap itself (that trap) is something the Aruban fishermen would use, more likely it fell off a large fishing vessle passing by.

I'm trying to pick your brain too.  LOL

So if there are no fishing vessels like that in Aruba, how do we get the divers down to that lost trap?

[Monkey Mia]

And don't forget, those traps are linked to each other.  They don't just fall off.

[Magnolia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

[Monkey Mia]

It could have broken loose from the line during a storm, but it still leaves the problem of how divers that presumably were paid off found it and placed NAH there.

[klaasend]

Klaasend, I am considering Kyles superimposed image and with a 42" hypotenuse it does not work.  And like I said, how would they find the trap in 90" of water.  Does Aruba keep the coordinates of every lost trap?  How would they find one?

Thanks!  I'm not disagreeing with you just picking your brain.  I don't think the trap itself (that trap) is something the Aruban fishermen would use, more likely it fell off a large fishing vessle passing by.

I'm trying to pick your brain too.  LOL

So if there are no fishing vessels like that in Aruba, how do we get the divers down to that lost trap?

IF you believe Capslock, the trap has been there for some time and used as a post office of sorts for drug drops.   Is 90 feet all that deep?  In my research it appeared that a good skin diver could do 90 feet.  With scuba gear it wouldnt' be a problem at all. 

[Monkey Mia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

[klaasend]

It could have broken loose from the line during a storm, but it still leaves the problem of how divers that presumably were paid off found it and placed NAH there.

The trap wasn't that far out.  All of the area around Aruba is scuba area, there are sunken ships that are tourist attractions for scuba tours.  It wouldn't surprise me that people knew of the trap being there.

[klaasend]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

Monkey Mia - say you are correct, then how do you explain what Kyle was attempting to do with his superimposed photo?  What was Kyle's motives?  Was this a scam by Kyle?  If so how many of them on the ship were in on it?

[Monkey Mia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

Monkey Mia - say you are correct, then how do you explain what Kyle was attempting to do with his superimposed photo?  What was Kyle's motives?  Was this a scam by Kyle?  If so how many of them on the ship were in on it?

I can't explain what Kyle was attempting to do, only he can.  I have many questions of my own that are not answered by Kyle's photographs.  I would never presume to say that is NAH on the information that has been provided. 

I also don't accept Capslockwizard's word as fact.  It may be a well know spot.  I haven't seen a refutable source to back it up. 

A 90' dive is a dive for advanced divers.  Wetsuit is required and possibly decompression time.  The amount of air you use depends on the individual diver but you have to consider the time to get down to the bottom, the amount of exertion, and the time to get back to the surface and any decompression time you need before you get to the surface.  A prudent diver would take that all into consideration before making such a dive.  We might assume drug dealers don't care about that though. 

[Magnolia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

I just got out the measuring tape and measured from the top of my
head to my knees...42".  As I said, I am tall and have long legs and still
have a little meat on my bones.

[Monkey Mia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

I just got out the measuring tape and measured from the top of my
head to my knees...42".  As I said, I am tall and have long legs and still
have a little meat on my bones.

Magnolia, it isn't just a matter of length.  Kyle has placed NAH's body into half of a grid of a much larger cage.  That grid , we are assuming has a diagonal of 42".  That means the triangle that is the half of the grid is approximately 30" x 30" x 42".  Mark that out on your floor or bed and see how much of you fits it when lying down.

[Magnolia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

I just got out the measuring tape and measured from the top of my
head to my knees...42".  As I said, I am tall and have long legs and still
have a little meat on my bones.

Magnolia, it isn't just a matter of length.  Kyle has placed NAH's body into half of a grid of a much larger cage.  That grid , we are assuming has a diagonal of 42".  That means the triangle that is the half of the grid is approximately 30" x 30" x 42".  Mark that out on your floor or bed and see how much of you fits it when lying down.

I fit beautifully on the diagonal and I am three inches taller than Natalee.

[Monkey Mia]

Monkey Mia....your reasoning is all off.
These pictures were analyzed by some very smart monkeys.
You sound a bit like Words of Wisdom at RU, who thinks
Natalee never really existed and was just photoshopped into
all pictures.

Please explain why my reasoning is off.

I am 5'7" and I would fit into the area with my knees bent.
Kyle said: If it wasn't her it was one of the biggest cosmic
WTF moments of my life.

The trap was big enough to lay a body out, but the portion that would have to fit in that triangle does not.

I just got out the measuring tape and measured from the top of my
head to my knees...42".  As I said, I am tall and have long legs and still
have a little meat on my bones.

Magnolia, it isn't just a matter of length.  Kyle has placed NAH's body into half of a grid of a much larger cage.  That grid , we are assuming has a diagonal of 42".  That means the triangle that is the half of the grid is approximately 30" x 30" x 42".  Mark that out on your floor or bed and see how much of you fits it when lying down.

I fit beautifully on the diagonal and I am three inches taller than Natalee.

He doesn't have her on the diagonal.  The supposed remains to not run directly down the middle of the diagonal.  He has her mostly in one half of the grid.

[hotping]

This Discussion this morning brought this to mind..Could this be why She fit in the trap...Just a Thought...

Monkeys, I tried to go to sleep, because i waana get up tomorrow and see what we hear. Something kept me awake though. It was a post on the internet From March 2006. I know we discussed it here long ago, and I also brought it back here to the forum On December 9th. But now I really DO believe that someone who knew what happened was trying to tell us . I wonder if this is what we will hear tommorow?    I give you the post again....Left on a blog called    Joranvandersloot.com, in the comments........................

8:41 pm  anonymous said...
It was high tide and sea water covering the beach slope, Koen's boat stayed out at a distance in the water and he didn't want the boat got stuck in the beach sand dunes. Joran didn't want his shoes get wet and he took them off. He and Deepak together carried Natalee's body and walking through the water towards Koen's boat where Koen kept the boat's motor running and positioning, it was high tide and high wind, the sea waves were strong and rough. For some unknown reasons Joran got some blood into his shoes when the suspects were trying to fit Natalee's body into the
crap cage. They might have to do some cuttings of the body in order to get all the body parts into the cage. The cage was not a coffin shape, it was square in shape, not long enough to fit a body of 5'4. So Joran put his bloody shoes into the square crab cage as well. Together the suspects dropped cage to the deepsea bottom and got rid of the forensic evidence.[b/] If Tim Miller can locate the crab cage, Joran's shoes are there. Joran is the murderer.