Natalee Case Discussion #800 2/11 - 2/18/09

[ldstlou]

Lisa,

First of all - the main point you repeatedly miss.

These are KYLE'S words - not mine, not kermit's, not anyone else's but KYLE'S.

Therefore, the story of Silvetti's actions came from Kyle himself.

They are borne out as truth with the actions (and lack thereof) that we have all seen.

There is no "conspiracy theory" fabricated out of thin air.  The facts are the facts.

Perhaps it is YOU who should "give it a rest", Lisa.  With all of your backward, half-assed interpretations of the facts, and your inappropriate (alleged) forwarding of those incorrect interpretation to the family in obscenely irresponsible "reporting".

Perhaps you would like to digest these words of both Kyle AND John Silvetti regarding WHO dove on that fish cage?

Perhaps you might also question WHY the little fact that UE personnel dove on it needed to be lied about?  (Remember, Kyle tried valiantly to explain away his little slip of "we dove")

Perhaps, after consideration of these FACTS, you could come up with a reasonable explaination as to WHY UE personnel made "several" dives on it - and the dates of those dives, when the cage was "empty" as per Silvetti?



Special Notice:
By John Silvetti-

The original search area surveyed by the R/V Persistence was selected based on numerous pieces of information provided by Dave Holloway, Tim Miller, investigations, interrogations, depositions and other information from local authorities. After compiling and reviewing the information, the search area was selected by Louis Schaefer and John Silvetti. Upon completion of the sonar runs in this area, 65 ROV dives were performed by Offshore Innovative Solutions (OIS) on targets identified by sonar. Divers from the Aruban Police Diving Division and Underwater Expeditions made several dives and retrieved samples which were delivered for analysis. Several targets in this first survey grid yet remain to be investigated by ROV which will occur in approximately one week when ROV dive operations recommence.

snipped
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/

Kyle Kingman:  07-Jan we dove on the trap with Aruban divers and our ROV recording the dive. They found the piece of blue tarp and blue denim-like fabric, and other things I can't identify.

Perhaps Lisa you could explain why the FBI claimed there WERE HUMAN REMAINS FOUND, and yet SILVETTI stated the cage was "empty"?

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI says there were human remains (this is aside from the fabrics). - this is a big lurking question in the forums, whether or not there were human remains. To my understanding, there were indeed remains.

Then Lisa - after actually reading and absorbing the FACTS, you just might start to question just what, exactly, transpired between Christmas morning and January 7th.

I will say it again. Kyle posted in the Freebirds forum his CONCERNS, based on his FEELINGS about what he saw and didn't see happen on the Persistence based on his LIMITED role. They were not FACTS, they were CONCERNS and FEELINGS. He repeatedly stated they were his CONCERNS and FEELINGS. You took his CONCERNS and FEELINGS and turned then into your "FACTS", with nothing to substantiate the "FACTS" except Kyle's observations, which he has admitted were limited and therefore not complete, definately not valid as "factual".

The family has been given all of your research and theories, and still they trust John Silvetti and Tim Miller to do another search. I am positive the FBI, Natalee's family, and Tim Miller know much more about what transpired during their last search, more than Kyle in his limited role, and therefore more than you know....your information is based on Kyle's feelings and concerns. The family and Tim Miller have once again chosen John Silvetti to help them search for Natalee, don't you think the best way to support the family is to back them in this endeavor?

As far as "truth with the actions (and lack thereof) that we have all seen", I would say the actions of John Silvetti speak much louder than your words. What I see is a man who is still standing beside Tim Miller and Dave Holloway and again ready to search for Natalee at great personal sacrifice. Those actions speak for themselves...again..jmho. John Silvetti is a hero to many, myself included and you are doing no service to justice for Natalee nor service to Natalee's family by continuing your attack on John. I will stand behind the family on this one thank you.

[jen3560]

Lisa,

There just is no reasoning with you.  You are unable to discern fact from your convoluted interpretation of events.

To each their own.

[ldstlou]

Lisa,

There just is no reasoning with you.  You are unable to discern fact from your convoluted interpretation of events.

To each their own.

Whose "facts" Jen?

As I stated, the family, the FBI and Tim Miller know much more than you do, that I know for a fact. They choose to trust John Silvetti and once again John Silvetti is stepping up to the plate for Natalee and her family. THAT is enough "fact" for me.

I have and always will stand by the family, not a frog, not a conspiracy theory, but Natalee's family. If Natalee's family trusts John, then I trust him. If Tim Miller trusts John, then I trust him. If the FBI trusts John, then I trust him. I will back Natalee's family, the new search, Tim Miller and John Silvetti. My prayers go out to all of them.

[jen3560]

Lisa,

There just is no reasoning with you.  You are unable to discern fact from your convoluted interpretation of events.

To each their own.

Whose "facts" Jen?

As I stated, the family, the FBI and Tim Miller know much more than you do, that I know for a fact. They choose to trust John Silvetti and once again John Silvetti is stepping up to the plate for Natalee and her family. THAT is enough "fact" for me.

I have and always will stand by the family, not a frog, not a conspiracy theory, but Natalee's family. If Natalee's family trusts John, then I trust him. If Tim Miller trusts John, then I trust him. If the FBI trusts John, then I trust him. I will back Natalee's family, the new search, Tim Miller and John Silvetti. My prayers go out to all of them.

THE facts Lisa.  There is only one set of those, the rest is interpretation.

Good for you and your convictions.  Hold onto them tightly.

Oh - and I'm through discussing with you, as I said above - there is no reasoning with you.

Have a good day.

[johan555]

I am not sure but if i read this :

Dave with Natalee Holloway, six days before her disappearance in Aruba.
A 80 meter long ship, equipped with modern diving equipment is ready to leave for Aruba. A sloppy 5 million dollar cost for 150 items on diving in the Caribbean Sea and a pond to dig to find a trace of Natalee.

My conlusion is that Dave trust Miller and Silvetti or is there another theory?

[jen3560]

caesu,

can you tell us what you know about this reporter?  I believe it is a woman, and the only things I can find from her aside from a couple of articles on this case - are celebrity news/gossip reports she has contributed to People magazine.

Are you familiar with her and any other types of articles/reports she writes?

TIA

also:

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/3007001/Vader_Natalee_Holloway_wil_nieuwe_zoektocht_in_Aruba.html

Dave has a team ready to start searching again in the pond and of the coast of Aruba.
a 80 meter long ship with diving equipment is ready to sail to Aruba.
the team has 5 million dollar to spend.
but Hans Mos won't give approval. so the team can't sail off for Aruba.

also comments form John Silvetti and Tim Miller (TexasEquuSearch).


i wait for an English article. else i am going to translate both articles.

i haven't been following this Kyle-situation because i find it too confusing.
but i might give in another try.

[wingnut]

Lisa,

First of all - the main point you repeatedly miss.

These are KYLE'S words - not mine, not kermit's, not anyone else's but KYLE'S.

Therefore, the story of Silvetti's actions came from Kyle himself.

They are borne out as truth with the actions (and lack thereof) that we have all seen.

There is no "conspiracy theory" fabricated out of thin air.  The facts are the facts.

Perhaps it is YOU who should "give it a rest", Lisa.  With all of your backward, half-assed interpretations of the facts, and your inappropriate (alleged) forwarding of those incorrect interpretation to the family in obscenely irresponsible "reporting".

Perhaps you would like to digest these words of both Kyle AND John Silvetti regarding WHO dove on that fish cage?

Perhaps you might also question WHY the little fact that UE personnel dove on it needed to be lied about?  (Remember, Kyle tried valiantly to explain away his little slip of "we dove")

Perhaps, after consideration of these FACTS, you could come up with a reasonable explaination as to WHY UE personnel made "several" dives on it - and the dates of those dives, when the cage was "empty" as per Silvetti?



Special Notice:
By John Silvetti-

The original search area surveyed by the R/V Persistence was selected based on numerous pieces of information provided by Dave Holloway, Tim Miller, investigations, interrogations, depositions and other information from local authorities. After compiling and reviewing the information, the search area was selected by Louis Schaefer and John Silvetti. Upon completion of the sonar runs in this area, 65 ROV dives were performed by Offshore Innovative Solutions (OIS) on targets identified by sonar. Divers from the Aruban Police Diving Division and Underwater Expeditions made several dives and retrieved samples which were delivered for analysis. Several targets in this first survey grid yet remain to be investigated by ROV which will occur in approximately one week when ROV dive operations recommence.

snipped
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/

Kyle Kingman:  07-Jan we dove on the trap with Aruban divers and our ROV recording the dive. They found the piece of blue tarp and blue denim-like fabric, and other things I can't identify.

Perhaps Lisa you could explain why the FBI claimed there WERE HUMAN REMAINS FOUND, and yet SILVETTI stated the cage was "empty"?

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI says there were human remains (this is aside from the fabrics). - this is a big lurking question in the forums, whether or not there were human remains. To my understanding, there were indeed remains.

Then Lisa - after actually reading and absorbing the FACTS, you just might start to question just what, exactly, transpired between Christmas morning and January 7th.

I will say it again. Kyle posted in the Freebirds forum his CONCERNS, based on his FEELINGS about what he saw and didn't see happen on the Persistence based on his LIMITED role. They were not FACTS, they were CONCERNS and FEELINGS. He repeatedly stated they were his CONCERNS and FEELINGS. You took his CONCERNS and FEELINGS and turned then into your "FACTS", with nothing to substantiate the "FACTS" except Kyle's observations, which he has admitted were limited and therefore not complete, definately not valid as "factual".

The family has been given all of your research and theories, and still they trust John Silvetti and Tim Miller to do another search. I am positive the FBI, Natalee's family, and Tim Miller know much more about what transpired during their last search, more than Kyle in his limited role, and therefore more than you know....your information is based on Kyle's feelings and concerns. The family and Tim Miller have once again chosen John Silvetti to help them search for Natalee, don't you think the best way to support the family is to back them in this endeavor?

As far as "truth with the actions (and lack thereof) that we have all seen", I would say the actions of John Silvetti speak much louder than your words. What I see is a man who is still standing beside Tim Miller and Dave Holloway and again ready to search for Natalee at great personal sacrifice. Those actions speak for themselves...again..jmho. John Silvetti is a hero to many, myself included and you are doing no service to justice for Natalee nor service to Natalee's family by continuing your attack on John. I will stand behind the family on this one thank you.

The FBI says there were human remains

How can you interpret this to be Kyle's feelings 

[johan555]

mos zei dit
Van mij mogen ze hun gang gaan, als ze het maar even laten weten,’’ zegt hij. ,,Ik werk ze niet tegen.

Mos said this : they can do the search(go their own way) ,if they inform me .I don't work against them.

[ldstlou]

Lisa,

First of all - the main point you repeatedly miss.

These are KYLE'S words - not mine, not kermit's, not anyone else's but KYLE'S.

Therefore, the story of Silvetti's actions came from Kyle himself.

They are borne out as truth with the actions (and lack thereof) that we have all seen.

There is no "conspiracy theory" fabricated out of thin air.  The facts are the facts.

Perhaps it is YOU who should "give it a rest", Lisa.  With all of your backward, half-assed interpretations of the facts, and your inappropriate (alleged) forwarding of those incorrect interpretation to the family in obscenely irresponsible "reporting".

Perhaps you would like to digest these words of both Kyle AND John Silvetti regarding WHO dove on that fish cage?

Perhaps you might also question WHY the little fact that UE personnel dove on it needed to be lied about?  (Remember, Kyle tried valiantly to explain away his little slip of "we dove")

Perhaps, after consideration of these FACTS, you could come up with a reasonable explaination as to WHY UE personnel made "several" dives on it - and the dates of those dives, when the cage was "empty" as per Silvetti?



Special Notice:
By John Silvetti-

The original search area surveyed by the R/V Persistence was selected based on numerous pieces of information provided by Dave Holloway, Tim Miller, investigations, interrogations, depositions and other information from local authorities. After compiling and reviewing the information, the search area was selected by Louis Schaefer and John Silvetti. Upon completion of the sonar runs in this area, 65 ROV dives were performed by Offshore Innovative Solutions (OIS) on targets identified by sonar. Divers from the Aruban Police Diving Division and Underwater Expeditions made several dives and retrieved samples which were delivered for analysis. Several targets in this first survey grid yet remain to be investigated by ROV which will occur in approximately one week when ROV dive operations recommence.

snipped
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/

Kyle Kingman:  07-Jan we dove on the trap with Aruban divers and our ROV recording the dive. They found the piece of blue tarp and blue denim-like fabric, and other things I can't identify.

Perhaps Lisa you could explain why the FBI claimed there WERE HUMAN REMAINS FOUND, and yet SILVETTI stated the cage was "empty"?

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI says there were human remains (this is aside from the fabrics). - this is a big lurking question in the forums, whether or not there were human remains. To my understanding, there were indeed remains.

Then Lisa - after actually reading and absorbing the FACTS, you just might start to question just what, exactly, transpired between Christmas morning and January 7th.

I will say it again. Kyle posted in the Freebirds forum his CONCERNS, based on his FEELINGS about what he saw and didn't see happen on the Persistence based on his LIMITED role. They were not FACTS, they were CONCERNS and FEELINGS. He repeatedly stated they were his CONCERNS and FEELINGS. You took his CONCERNS and FEELINGS and turned then into your "FACTS", with nothing to substantiate the "FACTS" except Kyle's observations, which he has admitted were limited and therefore not complete, definately not valid as "factual".

The family has been given all of your research and theories, and still they trust John Silvetti and Tim Miller to do another search. I am positive the FBI, Natalee's family, and Tim Miller know much more about what transpired during their last search, more than Kyle in his limited role, and therefore more than you know....your information is based on Kyle's feelings and concerns. The family and Tim Miller have once again chosen John Silvetti to help them search for Natalee, don't you think the best way to support the family is to back them in this endeavor?

As far as "truth with the actions (and lack thereof) that we have all seen", I would say the actions of John Silvetti speak much louder than your words. What I see is a man who is still standing beside Tim Miller and Dave Holloway and again ready to search for Natalee at great personal sacrifice. Those actions speak for themselves...again..jmho. John Silvetti is a hero to many, myself included and you are doing no service to justice for Natalee nor service to Natalee's family by continuing your attack on John. I will stand behind the family on this one thank you.

The FBI says there were human remains

How can you interpret this to be Kyle's feelings 

Show me where the FBI stated there were human remains? Kyle said that the FBI said there were human remains, that is not fact that the FBI stated those words. I saw no PROOF that the FBI stated there were human remains. Kyle's words are not facts, they are Kyle's words and by his own admission, most of what he interpreted turned out to be false.

I will not argue anymore. The fact remains, the family trusts John Silvetti, Tim Miller trusts John Silvetti, the FBI trusts John Silvetti, therefore so do I. To claim as factual that Kyle knows more than the family, the FBI and Tim Miller is invalid.


I stand by the family, and the family stands by John Silvetti, and once again John Silvetti has stepped up to the plate for Natalee and her family. That is good enough for me.

[jen3560]

The FBI says there were human remains

How can you interpret this to be Kyle's feelings 

I don't know how to get through to her.  Trying to get her to see the facts is completely beyond my discussion capabilities.

All I can do is throw my hands in the air and move on.

Thankies for trying, wingnut!!

[wingnut]

The FBI says there were human remains

How can you interpret this to be Kyle's feelings 

I don't know how to get through to her.  Trying to get her to see the facts is completely beyond my discussion capabilities.

All I can do is throw my hands in the air and move on.

Thankies for trying, wingnut!!

Yeah - sheesh.  Now isa is saying that the FBI got it wrong - according to Kyle.  Oh wait - maybe she is saying that just because Kyle said that the FBI said it doesn't mean that the FBI really said it.  (Is that saying that Kyle lied about it?  The FBI lied about it?  The FBI doesn't know how to identify human remains?)  The possibilities are endless when your reasoning is flawed.

[jen3560]

The FBI says there were human remains

How can you interpret this to be Kyle's feelings 

I don't know how to get through to her.  Trying to get her to see the facts is completely beyond my discussion capabilities.

All I can do is throw my hands in the air and move on.

Thankies for trying, wingnut!!

Yeah - sheesh.  Now isa is saying that the FBI got it wrong - according to Kyle.  Oh wait - maybe she is saying that just because Kyle said that the FBI said it doesn't mean that the FBI really said it.  (Is that saying that Kyle lied about it?  The FBI lied about it?  The FBI doesn't know how to identify human remains?)  The possibilities are endless when your reasoning is flawed.

Precisely!!

And speaking of flawed reasoning..............Neither the FBI, the family, nor Tim Miller were aboard the Persistence on January 7th.

So how could they KNOW what transpired?  Well - only by what they were told by John Silvetti, who WAS on board.

Tim Miller was removed after this:

oceanexploration wrote:

Reply #743 on: March 18, 2008, 12:30:41 PM

Your frustration mirrors my own.  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he [Tim Miller]was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers.  It was a royal mess.  I took a lot of heat for telling Tim Miller anything about the trap that may have prompted him to making the calls to the family.  In my defence, I specifically told Tim not to tell anyone about the trap until the contents are analysed.  He couldn't wait.  He was very emotional, hopeful, and confident.  It was a crushing time for all. Most of all- for Tim Miller, Dave, and Beth.  This was Dec 30th
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366324#msg366324

[jen3560]

The FBI says there were human remains

How can you interpret this to be Kyle's feelings 

I don't know how to get through to her.  Trying to get her to see the facts is completely beyond my discussion capabilities.

All I can do is throw my hands in the air and move on.

Thankies for trying, wingnut!!

Yeah - sheesh.  Now isa is saying that the FBI got it wrong - according to Kyle.  Oh wait - maybe she is saying that just because Kyle said that the FBI said it doesn't mean that the FBI really said it.  (Is that saying that Kyle lied about it?  The FBI lied about it?  The FBI doesn't know how to identify human remains?)  The possibilities are endless when your reasoning is flawed.

Here's another example of flawed reasoning.

If only she would READ what is presented to her.....

I wonder how a person reconciles John Silvetti's own words about that fish cage?

I mean, take Kyle completely out of the equation.  Just go by Silvetti's own words and actions.

Like how he said it was "not case related", was "empty", and was "not what we are looking for" on December 3oth.

But yet.................he had UE make "several dives" on it.

Well..................WHEN were those dives made?  BEFORE Jan7th?  Why?  When the cage was not "case related"?

And what were the "collected samples for analysis" if the cage was empty? 
And for WHOSE analysis were those samples collected?

Or was it AFTER Jan 7th?

After Kyle was ashore for a "much needed break"?

If that is when the "several dives" took place - what happened to those "collected samples", and why was that kept secret from Kyle?

And THIS is the guy whose word we should all trust?

 

[johan555]

So is the reporter wrong jen ?

[jen3560]

So is the reporter wrong jen ?

I have no idea what Silvetti told her.  Or why he chose HER to tell anything to.

This reporter has called natalee "a drunk" and accused her of having "used drugs", thus causing her own demise.

I think I'll take what that reporter says in this instance, and toss it right out the window with her prior attacks against this victim as nothing more than nonsense and pot stirring (at the very least).

[johan555]

So is the reporter wrong jen ?

I have no idea what Silvetti told her.  Or why he chose HER to tell anything to.

This reporter has called natalee "a drunk" and accused her of having "used drugs", thus causing her own demise.

I think I'll take what that reporter says in this instance, and toss it right out the window with her prior attacks against this victim as nothing more than nonsense and pot stirring (at the very least).

This reporter has called natalee "a drunk"
were?  in an artile ? do you have a link ?

[jen3560]

So is the reporter wrong jen ?

What are your opinions of this reporter, johan?  Do you know of her?  Has she written more than the few articles and celebrity gossip that I noted above?

I really can't find anything else on her than that.

[jen3560]

So is the reporter wrong jen ?

I have no idea what Silvetti told her.  Or why he chose HER to tell anything to.

This reporter has called natalee "a drunk" and accused her of having "used drugs", thus causing her own demise.

I think I'll take what that reporter says in this instance, and toss it right out the window with her prior attacks against this victim as nothing more than nonsense and pot stirring (at the very least).

This reporter has called natalee "a drunk"
were?  in an artile ? do you have a link ?

I posted the article on the prior page of this thread.

[jen3560]

Oh - and I found another article of hers posted at RWV where she calls Mickey John a drug dealer.

She appears to be just a swell reporter. 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Does it strike anyone else as odd that this information about another ocean search is in the Dutch media, but not the American media?  Maybe I just haven't come across it yet.  Did Dave Holloway contact the Dutch media, and not local media?

 

   Great minds, Txmom!!!

That is precisely why I looked into this "reporter".

Makes ZERO sense that this would not have been all over the US news first, if everything were on the up and up.

Gee - I wonder if it was GeoLab Netherlands who contacted this reporter. 

I'm glad this came up, because I had the same question when Bastibro first posted the article, yesterday.  I didn't ask why it was only in NL news because I feared I had somehow missed something along the way.  I also wondered about the reputation of the news site the article was posted on. 

Maybe bastibro, johan555 or caesu will shed some light on this.