Natalee Case Discussion #802 2/21/09 - 2/25/09

[SunnyinTX]

Hey Monkeys,

Spoke with Beth today. Nothing of any pressing news, we just had not chatted in a while and it was great to do some catch up with her.

However, I took the opportunity to ask Beth a couple of questions that she was kind enough to answer.

Question: Beth, this may come as a strange question but in light of some people writing misrepresentations regarding stuff that SM has done ... has Scared Monkeys on the FP or in the forum ever made comments, posts or done anything that would have upset you that you were angered or disagreed with?

Answer: Red, are you kidding. Scared Monkeys has done so much good from the beginning how could you even ask that. Are you crazy!

My own comment ... its also not like the family has specifically asked for help regarding certain things since 2005. Whether it be advice, news updates, research or translations.     

The fact of the matter is folks that there has been so much done for Natalee's family behind the scenes that goes unsaid, that they all know and have a direct line if they want to ask a question. They do not rely on third party discussion. Generally speaking over the years, family members have contacted us, not the other way around. I do not believe in burdening people who have lost so much.

The truth of the matter is that SM, Red personally, has a a relationship with members of Natalee's family and nothing anyone tries to do, say or lie about will change that fact. We have fought in the trenches together and have bonds outside of the internet and this case. There is nothing that internet trouble makers can do to break up friendships that exist in the real world.

Thank you RED...you have no idea how much I needed to read this today!!

[hotping]

Lifesong

Check this out.....I have things to do this morning but I will BBL

Offshore Innovative Solutions

http://www.importgenius.com/importers/offshore-innovative-solutions.html

[Lifesong]

As the Froggy also said!Watch the patterns.....

Without an explanation the patterns do not make sense when it comes to the upholding of CAPS.

Back in May, 2008 ... Mum and I were on the same page in regards to CAPS ... the same page I have been on since CAPS made his initial appearance at the end of January, 2008.

Somewhere along the way Mum jumped back on the CAPS bandwagon.  What changed?   It was not CAPS who changed.

Why do CAPS supporters never offer an explanation as to their reasoning in their decision to follow this guy wherever he may lead.  It is downright scary.

Justice for Natalee Holloway and closure for her family have definitely taken a backseat.

Janet

+++++++

MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1412 on: May 06, 2008, 01:59:31 PM »

SS...I have read that as well...I have also read where he said it was other apartments, Dutch owned and not the Matty apartments. I am not going to go back to the first thread and find Cap's posts as I questioned him more than a couple of times as to why he changed his mind and he never answered!

He also didn't respond as to why he told me no to the Ind/Lion's Den in the first thread.

All that being said...he hasn't backed up his posts...just because Caps said it, doesn't make it so!

 I am sorry I don't mean to upset you, but you can post Caps posts forever and I will just keep telling you what he said previously.

I still want to know why he changed from the other apartments to the Matty and he will not answer!!!!!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379364#msg379364


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1424 on: May 06, 2008, 02:41:59 PM »

SS…let me ask you one question…

If I post the Freddy Zedan owns the Indo/Lion’s Den are you going to just take my word for it?

 Caps posts that the Kalpoes - the father or the stepfather, he never did answer which one, according to a girl there, now own it!

You can certainly take what Caps says without questions, but I will not. So please do not repost Caps post to me....Show me the proof!

 I have read everyone of Cap’s post at least three times…each day I type out an index…you would be very surprised what you see on the third read.

All I am trying to say is what you are posting from Caps is not what he said in January!

I am 99% sure as to why he switched to the Indo apartments…the answer is in one of your last few posts…and I will leave it at that!

And yes Lala’s…I am extremely frustrated…seems we have involved just about everyone on Aruba…new names are dropped every week.…I never see Joran’s name in this thread anymore!!!!!

And everytime Caps appears we have more questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

COLUMBO has a word for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379383#msg379383


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1440 on: May 06, 2008, 06:42:17 PM »

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't have to give him the benefit of the doubt just because he's Caps

All I see is a whole lot of new names and misinformation and very few facts...Giovanni, Deutekom, Bulo, Freddy that doesn't exist, odd-bods living at the kalpoes address, list of names that don't match the phone book...
 
Yes, something is going on at that pond, and we are still dealing with Aruba. I'm in total agreement with Lala's on this one, nothing will come of the pond.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379502#msg379502


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1450 on: May 06, 2008, 07:32:02 PM »

SS...A simple question as to if Deutekom was a Judge should have been answered 150 pages ago....so should the reason for him going back to the Indo/Lion's Den after he told me no to there. these are simple questions and both merit an answer!

I can't buy Cap's Dirty Hand Deutekom, because how he got to him was flawed. If he is not a Judge he wouldn't have been on that list. It is as simple as that!

There are more questions now than when Caps first started posting!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379518#msg379518


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1456 on: May 06, 2008, 11:11:21 PM »

Well I guess we are all frustrated today!

I attempted to explain to Caps at least 3 times the Judges list, and as one who tries to answer other poster’s questions, and acknowledge their posts I expected an answer on at least one of those occasions! If you have read my posts you would know that I have acknowledged that Deutekom may be a ‘Dirty Hand’ , just questioning the way he got there.

You can check my posts for this morning and see that I try to ‘share’ what I know! Have a look and see if my answer to another poster was even acknowledged!

I guess in your opinion it is OK for Caps to fire of all these questions at us, but he is not obligated to answer ours. Most of my questions to him have been about posts he has made and names like Bulo’s that we have never heard of. I have asked very few about things I am researching.

I have not asked any more from Caps than I would have asked from any other poster…back up your posts! BS on putting him in any sort of position! Not to the questions I have asked anyways.

Yes there are other theories on this thread, and I for one am sick and tired of having only one jammed down my throat.

I have read Caps posts many times and it is up to me if I go along with everything or anything he says.  Maybe it might help some if you let Caps know that it is creating problems by him dropping names with no other info….it would help a lot and certainly save some of us a lot of time….

JMHO

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379582#msg379582


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1459 on: May 06, 2008, 11:33:41 PM »

... as you said this is a discussion forum and I have reason to question things in Caps posts! Most times when I have done so I do not receive an answer or if I do it is the post of Caps I am referring to posted back to me. Sorry … to me that is not discussion.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379591#msg379591


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1467 on: May 07, 2008, 08:06:50 AM »

SS...Caps started posting in the NAH thread around mid-January. Klaas explained at the time that he had been posting on the front page previously. After 4 or 5 days Caps started posting in the Shango thread. This would have been way back in the first thread.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379694#msg379694


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1468 on: May 07, 2008, 09:28:28 AM »

SS… You are right. I think Caps has information that has nothing to do with Shango as well. Caps does know the corruption and the ‘dark’ side of Aruba. He knows some of the players, probably a lot.

When Caps first started posting in the forum he knew very little about the case, or so it appears from his early posts. He asked us about the family, the friends, the private plane and the pimps. He asked about the suspects and about the people such as Julia and others that continually misinformed us. He needed our help and knowledge with these pieces of the puzzle. There is nothing wrong with that, I personally have spent a lot of time and posts sharing any information I had or could find.

A lot of time it seems to me that Caps has a piece that he feels fits into a Shango/Simian/Merian post, and just makes it fit. He has the player, the corrupt official, so that is the answer to that part of the riddle.

An example of this would be ‘the yellowhammer’. We started with a yellow hummer way back in the first thread, and most disagreed back then. When it was revisited recently and many posted that they thought it was the bird, Caps said OK, we’ll go with the bird, we’ll refine and correct any errors in his interpretations. The next day, Caps posts that he doesn’t think it is the bird. Our interpretation of ‘the yellowhammer’ doesn’t fit into Cap’s deciphering of the riddle.

I find this very frustrating. To me it is not that difficult.

Thanks everyone for the input on Bulo yesterday. Pita sorry for the confusion I may have caused on the Benz site. Somehow I confused myself…Vms…sounds like a good idea…maybe clear up some loose ends like Giovanni and Bulo…

 I think I need to go and sit in the grandstand with Lala’s and the other grannies for a day or two and go back to my own research.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379700#msg379700


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1493 on: May 08, 2008, 09:33:46 AM »

This is a previous discussion about Ben VocKing. Below are 2 of Caps older posts regarding VocKing. So in February and March Caps knew who VocKing was, but not on April 25th.

Somewhere back around page 40 Caps posted a key in which he includes a pic of VocKing. You will notice that Caps refers to a picture of Voking in his response above.

Around pages 45 and 46 there is much discussion about the photo of VocKing and which is the correct one. The photo of VocKing that Caps included in his key and showed to the man who knew him very well is not of the person we determined to be VocKing.

This is why I ask questions…

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379920#msg379920


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1494 on: May 08, 2008, 09:41:12 AM »

These posts of Caps have been etched in mind since March. Another reason I ask questions.

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379922#msg379922


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1495 on: May 08, 2008, 10:12:11 AM »

Here is Cap's picture of Vocking.

Hotping...Thanks for the prayer. After the posts from last night, for the sake of harmony I have decided to refrain from posting in this thread any more.

Enjoy the Tango!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379926#msg379926


MumInOhio
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #3
« Reply #1500 on: May 08, 2008, 11:55:52 AM »

Vms…I have suspected from very early on from Cap’s posts who Caps really is. I did not come to this conclusion from any mailing list from ‘our friend in Aruba’. Posts over the last 24 hours have confirmed my suspicions. Not everyone is whom they appear to be…I need to walk away!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2787.msg379938#msg379938


MumInOhio
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #750 5/2 -
« Reply #936 on: May 08, 2008, 08:30:49 PM »

SS…since you bought this over from the Shango thread….there is no group attack on Caps. I have asked him to answer questions about his posts. He has not done so, on most occasions IMO. I said this morning that I would walk away. I have.

Many of my questions regarding Caps surround Ben Vocking. I posted on that this morning. Please go back and read from page 39 to page 46 of the thread. Open the links. Read Caps response very carefully and then read what I posted this morning.

I am not going to respond any further on the subject.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2819.msg380072#msg380072


++++++++


MumInOhio
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #789 1/1/09 -
« Reply #454 on: January 02, 2009, 11:06:23 PM »

Janet...You are like a pitbull...LOL

Nobody knows my position on this at this time...I am not ready to elaborate any more...I am Sorry.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4340.msg609545;topicseen#msg609545

Janet - I meant to thank you on Saturday for posting this.  It is puzzling, to be sure.  Though I also found it encouraging in some way to see that Mum wasn't buying it.  I wish she would explain to us what changed.

I've been reading in Finngirl's thread We Forgot We Knew.  Interesting stuff there too.

[Lifesong]

Lifesong

Check this out.....I have things to do this morning but I will BBL

Offshore Innovative Solutions

http://www.importgenius.com/importers/offshore-innovative-solutions.html

Heh heh heh heh!!

You did not just pull that out of your back pocket!  Love it...wow.  Shipping an ROV on 2-28-08 from LA to UK.

What else ya got?      

Good luck today!

[jen3560]

Good Morning, Monkeys!

I've been in the old threads from a year ago, 2-26-08 to 3-02-08.  It's heartbreaking to read back through, really.

But, I need some help this morning...here's a quote from Silvetti posted at BFN:  "Louis Schaefer committed a very generous amount of money towards the survey and the rest of us absorbed what we could.  However, that was all based on the initial survey grid.  Once the grid tripled, obviously so did our committments."

I've not yet found any "official" explanation as to why the initial survey grid was tripled. 

Can anyone help me out with this?

Lifesong - I'm just now trying to catch up with this thread, so if this has been answered - please ignore.

Kyle told us that Richardson wanted them searching out in deeper waters.  This was right after they dove on the trap.

THAT is the reason the search grid tripled - Silvetti did what Richardson said.

Perhaps Kermit has that quote of Kyle's.

What we have learned since then - any boat going out further than 2 miles would have been picked up on Aruba's radar.

Deeper water/out past 2miles = drawing attention to themselves.

Not a likely thing for Paulus to do, IMO.

[jen3560]

This is from Lifesong's timeline:

01/23/2008
An Aruban journalist posts at RU:  “The Persistence might have found "something" The prosecutor's Office has just been informed recently that the Persistence crew might have found something and currently forensic testings are under way. If it has to do with the Natalee Holloway case or any way related or crucial to the investigation, has yet to be determined.

I reckon that was Renfro that posted at RU.

Not Renfro - it was "MF".

Interesting, no?  The prosecutor's office was just recently informed on/about Jan 23rd?  Yet - the items were collected on Jan 7th....

[jen3560]

Good Morning!


Kermit -

Can you put a date with this?

Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday.
 Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

TIA!

I'm not kermit.........but that was September 11, 2008

[jen3560]

RED - thank you for making the time to catch up with Beth, and for relaying some of her words here.

[Lifesong]

Good Morning!


Kermit -

Can you put a date with this?

Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday.
 Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

TIA!

I'm not kermit.........but that was September 11, 2008

Thanks, Jen.

[jen3560]

klaas and lifesong - this might be of interest to you both, in light of the conversations earlier in this thread.

This addresses both the increased grid size, and Tim Miller being removed from Persistence.

Just so nothing is accused of being taken out of context, before Kyle's informative post - I also included MY OWN to him with some questions.  If Tim approached Silvetti with this action plan Tim and Kyle discussed, that may have been the final catalyst that had Tim ejected from the Persistence by Silvetti:

posted by me:

Hey Kyle, I have a question.

I know you've never told us the reason that Tim Miller was no longer welcome onboard the Persistence.

I'm just wondering if that timing coincided with Silvetti's sudden lack of interest in that trap and its contents?

The timing seems about right, from what we've been able to piece together.

Did John and Tim have the same difference of opinion that you and John had?

Haven't seen you here for a bit Kyle - hope everything is going well for you. 



kyle wrote:

You're correct. This occurred on Dec 30th when the Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present). After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee. Although likely true, it was premature and should have been replaced with action- seeing that the evidence was collected and handled properly.

I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.

On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it. I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me. After the Jan 7th Dive I got off the boat for R&R from the 9th-14th at the Holiday Inn.

Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean". Meanwhile I'm standing on the beach watching the Dutch Coast Guard at the trap site for 42 and 45 minutes respectively over two days (11-12th). When I got back to the Hotel on the 11th and 12th after seeing the coasties out there I told John. He didn't want to hear it and didn't believe it. However, a couple weeks later he told me he looked into it by talking to Richardson who said "...not to worry, the Coast Guard doesn't have dive capabilities".

[bastibro]

Janet - that's why I want Tim Miller to answer if he was on board or not.  I want verification from Tim.

Thanks Klaas, that`ll take away some questions 

[Tamikosmom]

klaas and lifesong - this might be of interest to you both, in light of the conversations earlier in this thread.

This addresses both the increased grid size, and Tim Miller being removed from Persistence.

Just so nothing is accused of being taken out of context, before Kyle's informative post - I also included MY OWN to him with some questions.  If Tim approached Silvetti with this action plan Tim and Kyle discussed, that may have been the final catalyst that had Tim ejected from the Persistence by Silvetti:

posted by me:

Hey Kyle, I have a question.

I know you've never told us the reason that Tim Miller was no longer welcome onboard the Persistence.

I'm just wondering if that timing coincided with Silvetti's sudden lack of interest in that trap and its contents?

The timing seems about right, from what we've been able to piece together.

Did John and Tim have the same difference of opinion that you and John had?

Haven't seen you here for a bit Kyle - hope everything is going well for you. 



kyle wrote:

You're correct. This occurred on Dec 30th when the Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present). After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee. Although likely true, it was premature and should have been replaced with action- seeing that the evidence was collected and handled properly.

I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.

On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it. I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me. After the Jan 7th Dive I got off the boat for R&R from the 9th-14th at the Holiday Inn.

Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean". Meanwhile I'm standing on the beach watching the Dutch Coast Guard at the trap site for 42 and 45 minutes respectively over two days (11-12th). When I got back to the Hotel on the 11th and 12th after seeing the coasties out there I told John. He didn't want to hear it and didn't believe it. However, a couple weeks later he told me he looked into it by talking to Richardson who said "...not to worry, the Coast Guard doesn't have dive capabilities".

Jen ... Thanks.

I realize that Tim Trahan was on the December 30th dive ... that thumbs down dive but ... was he a participant in the the December 29th dive?

I believe that Tim Trahan is the the catalyst to what actually was in that trap/cage ... he observed it first hand.

I cannot comprehend what bait Kyle Kingsman, Louis Shaefer and Tim Trahan were dangling to the major networds and Peter Devries ... IF the ROV images did not reveal something case related,  Obviously ... Tim Trahan must have observed more than "NOTHING" as he claimed following the December 30th dive.  The major networks are not interested in "NOTHING".

Janet

+++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat

Kyle: I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal

Kyle:  I will soon propose a meeting with Beth and other family members, myself, Tim Trahan, Peter DeVries, and whomever else necessary to go over the ROV video, contents, and case status. I would like a couple people very familiar with the case documents also present to help connect dots during the meeting. I would prefer meeting towards the end of April or mid-May to allow adequate time for things to shake themselves out if is going to. If necessary, I have an ABC (20/20) and CBS (early show) film crew ready and willing to take part in such a meeting should it require press coverage. I've already had a meeting with ABC about this and they are "definitely interested" at the executive level. We met in mid-Feb about this already. The question becomes timing, who needs to be there, and whether or not it's covered by the press. I prefer not, but it may be useful. DeVries doesn't need to be there in my opinion but he's good for ratings and helps ABC be cooperative if needed.

[Keepthefaith]

klaas and lifesong - this might be of interest to you both, in light of the conversations earlier in this thread.

This addresses both the increased grid size, and Tim Miller being removed from Persistence.

Just so nothing is accused of being taken out of context, before Kyle's informative post - I also included MY OWN to him with some questions.  If Tim approached Silvetti with this action plan Tim and Kyle discussed, that may have been the final catalyst that had Tim ejected from the Persistence by Silvetti:

posted by me:

Hey Kyle, I have a question.

I know you've never told us the reason that Tim Miller was no longer welcome onboard the Persistence.

I'm just wondering if that timing coincided with Silvetti's sudden lack of interest in that trap and its contents?

The timing seems about right, from what we've been able to piece together.

Did John and Tim have the same difference of opinion that you and John had?

Haven't seen you here for a bit Kyle - hope everything is going well for you. 



kyle wrote:

You're correct. This occurred on Dec 30th when the Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present). After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee. Although likely true, it was premature and should have been replaced with action- seeing that the evidence was collected and handled properly.

I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.

On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it. I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me. After the Jan 7th Dive I got off the boat for R&R from the 9th-14th at the Holiday Inn.

Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean". Meanwhile I'm standing on the beach watching the Dutch Coast Guard at the trap site for 42 and 45 minutes respectively over two days (11-12th). When I got back to the Hotel on the 11th and 12th after seeing the coasties out there I told John. He didn't want to hear it and didn't believe it. However, a couple weeks later he told me he looked into it by talking to Richardson who said "...not to worry, the Coast Guard doesn't have dive capabilities".

Jen ... Thanks.

I realize that Tim Trahan was on the December 30th dive ... that thumbs down dive but ... was he a participant in the the December 29th dive?

I believe that Tim Trahan is the the catalyst to what actually was in that trap/cage ... he observed it first hand.

I cannot comprehend what bait Kyle Kingsman, Louis Shaefer and Tim Trahan were dangling to the major networds and Peter Devries ... IF the ROV images did not reveal something case related,  Obviously ... Tim Trahan must have observed more than "NOTHING" as he claimed following the December 30th dive.  The major networks are not interested in "NOTHING".

Janet

+++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat

Kyle: I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal

Kyle:  I will soon propose a meeting with Beth and other family members, myself, Tim Trahan, Peter DeVries, and whomever else necessary to go over the ROV video, contents, and case status. I would like a couple people very familiar with the case documents also present to help connect dots during the meeting. I would prefer meeting towards the end of April or mid-May to allow adequate time for things to shake themselves out if is going to. If necessary, I have an ABC (20/20) and CBS (early show) film crew ready and willing to take part in such a meeting should it require press coverage. I've already had a meeting with ABC about this and they are "definitely interested" at the executive level. We met in mid-Feb about this already. The question becomes timing, who needs to be there, and whether or not it's covered by the press. I prefer not, but it may be useful. DeVries doesn't need to be there in my opinion but he's good for ratings and helps ABC be cooperative if needed.

LOGIC DICTATES JANET!

[Tamikosmom]

Good Morning!


Kermit -

Can you put a date with this?

Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday.
 Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

TIA!

I'm not kermit.........but that was September 11, 2008

Again ... what does Tim Trahan have to offer if there was "NOTHING" related to the Natalee Holloway case inside that trap/cage.

 

Janet

[jen3560]

Janet - On Dec 29th, there were no divers in the water - only the ROV went down.  And yes, Tim Miller was aboard for that.  As was Dateline.

[Keepthefaith]

Good Morning to you Monkey's!What a beautiful morning!Keep Rolling..

[jen3560]

Good Morning!


Kermit -

Can you put a date with this?

Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday.
 Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

TIA!

I'm not kermit.........but that was September 11, 2008

Again ... what does Tim Trahan have to offer if there was "NOTHING" related to the Natalee Holloway case inside that trap/cage.

 

Janet

Kyle explained that "thumbs down" signal given by Tim Trahan.

He states there was no pre-determined signal, if Tim simply couldn't tell by a visual only inspection.

Tim simply couldn't tell.  Thus the thumbs down signal.

[Tamikosmom]

I realize that Tim Trahan was on the December 30th dive ... that thumbs down dive but ... was he a participant in the the December 29th dive?

I believe that Tim Trahan is the the catalyst to what actually was in that trap/cage ... he observed it first hand.

I cannot comprehend what bait Kyle Kingsman, Louis Shaefer and Tim Trahan were dangling to the major networds and Peter Devries ... IF the ROV images did not reveal something case related,  Obviously ... Tim Trahan must have observed more than "NOTHING" as he claimed following the December 30th dive.  The major networks are not interested in "NOTHING".

Janet

+++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat

Kyle: I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal

Kyle:  I will soon propose a meeting with Beth and other family members, myself, Tim Trahan, Peter DeVries, and whomever else necessary to go over the ROV video, contents, and case status. I would like a couple people very familiar with the case documents also present to help connect dots during the meeting. I would prefer meeting towards the end of April or mid-May to allow adequate time for things to shake themselves out if is going to. If necessary, I have an ABC (20/20) and CBS (early show) film crew ready and willing to take part in such a meeting should it require press coverage. I've already had a meeting with ABC about this and they are "definitely interested" at the executive level. We met in mid-Feb about this already. The question becomes timing, who needs to be there, and whether or not it's covered by the press. I prefer not, but it may be useful. DeVries doesn't need to be there in my opinion but he's good for ratings and helps ABC be cooperative if needed.

LOGIC DICTATES JANET!

Good Morning Keepthefaith.

I believe that logic dictates but ... I am also in a twilight zone.  Maybe I need a real strong cuppa Tim Horton's coffee.

Think about it.  If logic dictates and ... Dave Holloway is aware of Kyle Kingman's own words ... why is Natalee Holloway's father still involved with John Silvetti?  If logic dictates and ... Tim Miller is aware of Kyle Kingman's own words ... why is he still professionally  associated with John Silvetti?

 

Janet

Janet

++++++ 

[Lifesong]

klaas and lifesong - this might be of interest to you both, in light of the conversations earlier in this thread.

This addresses both the increased grid size, and Tim Miller being removed from Persistence.

Just so nothing is accused of being taken out of context, before Kyle's informative post - I also included MY OWN to him with some questions.  If Tim approached Silvetti with this action plan Tim and Kyle discussed, that may have been the final catalyst that had Tim ejected from the Persistence by Silvetti:

posted by me:

Hey Kyle, I have a question.

I know you've never told us the reason that Tim Miller was no longer welcome onboard the Persistence.

I'm just wondering if that timing coincided with Silvetti's sudden lack of interest in that trap and its contents?

The timing seems about right, from what we've been able to piece together.

Did John and Tim have the same difference of opinion that you and John had?

Haven't seen you here for a bit Kyle - hope everything is going well for you. 



kyle wrote:

You're correct. This occurred on Dec 30th when the Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present). After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee. Although likely true, it was premature and should have been replaced with action- seeing that the evidence was collected and handled properly.

I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.

On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it. I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me. After the Jan 7th Dive I got off the boat for R&R from the 9th-14th at the Holiday Inn.

Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean". Meanwhile I'm standing on the beach watching the Dutch Coast Guard at the trap site for 42 and 45 minutes respectively over two days (11-12th). When I got back to the Hotel on the 11th and 12th after seeing the coasties out there I told John. He didn't want to hear it and didn't believe it. However, a couple weeks later he told me he looked into it by talking to Richardson who said "...not to worry, the Coast Guard doesn't have dive capabilities".

Jen, thank you so much.  It's even more powerful to see it put together by Kyle this way.

Btw, if you all have a preference as to how all of these statements from Kyle could or should be sourced it would put me at ease.  Since Kyle has made threats of legal action over confidentiality agreements and perhaps copyrights, I don't want to overstep, or put you in a more vulnerable position, if that makes sense.

I think right now I have a mix of no links, just the statements posted, and some random links to posts here in the forum by Kermit, Wingnut and yourself.  I'm not sure if it even matters, but would rather you guys get to decide that.

[bastibro]

No I shouldn't; however, sadly some need to see the truth rather than the bs fabrications and misrepresentations that some wish to put out there.

SM was the very first blog discussing this case for obvious reasons. Namely my past associations with Aruba and people in Aruba.

I was the first to go to Aruba and search for Natalee, digging side by side Dave Holloway in the landfill. Long before it became en vogue for going to Aruba, playing Sam Spade to get reward money for finding NH, there was SM. Long before deals were made with Date Line, there was Red discussing the daily landfill search on Court TV.

Long before there was a water search, there was a land search that was done with all the persistence in the world trying to find Natalee on Aruba. I would love to paint a rosy, cheery picture that everyone felt good after the search like what was done when the Persistence left Aruba ... but I cannot and will not.

Frankly, after nearly 2 weeks of searching for Natalee with the pond searches, digging in the landfill and scouring Aruba with no traces of Natalee and leaving Aruba ... I personally felt terrible. I thought so many times we had found her, like when we searched the VDS's neighbors property. There is nothing worse in the world than not accomplishing one's goal. There is no amount of trying your best or putting your best effort forward that rids one of that feeling. Just trying in my book does not cut it, success is defined by meeting one's goals, not just making an effort, That is why there is still unfinished business when it come to Natalee.

The goal has always been to bring Natalee home and provide Justice for Natalee. Not just make an effort. Not do things because you make yourself feel better. Or do things because it brings attention upon yourself and say look at me.

For all the stupid and ignorant comments I have read since May 2005 in that respect, those that make such uninformed comments have not a clue. You people have no idea what makes me tick and what makes the many good hearted people at SM tick. So you should really stop trying to think you do.

For those of you that continue with the ignorance of Red writing a book ... grow up. Maybe you can provide me with a title as well. Some of the jealousy and haters on the internet are really old and tired. We have dealt with this from near the beginning of this case when Aruba actually paid people to cause havoc.

The point in many respects was to also get out the message to people who did not follow the case that Natalee was still missing and that Aruba has still done nothing. It was not to selfishly preach to the choir or have info on private or member only sites. What the hell is the point in that? What purpose does that serve?

There is a reason why SM posts on numerous stories other than just crime or missing persons. That is so that people who do not normally follow such stories also can read about these cases. Its called getting the story out to eyes that are not familiar with the facts at hand. There is a reason why SM has over at present almost 16.5 million visitors and 49.5 million page views since 2005.  There is a reason why we have a separate Missing Persons site, Radio Show and now True Crime blog.

The vision of SM is to have important stories seen and heard by as many people as possible. We believe in developing relationships with victims of crime, Law Enforcement and Search Teams. The vision of SM to to help victims of crime by overtly by communication and behind the scenes.

One would think that if people really were for Natalee Holloway and Natalee's family that the petty jealousies would be put aside for the sake of the family. People really need to look in the mirror and look internally at their souls and ask themselves why they are doing things.

Personally, I could care less what other blogs do ... they have their own site owners. Barring certain internet courtesy's, they do as they wish as that is their right. No one has to read at them if you do not like what they have to say. The same holds true here. It fascinates me that people actually read a site that they cannot stand and then post about it elsewhere. We know what goes on other sites and what is said. At the so-called private sites. Please, there is nothing private on the web. Frankly, who has time for hate when the point is to provide help.

There are few complete truths in life; however, one of them is that no one will agree on everything. That is why there is a little thing called free speech. Some where, some place out there, water will find its own level and everyone on the internet will find there own home. There is freedom of speech; however, there is no freedom that people have to listen or agree with you.

Scared Monkeys always has been a victims rights blog/forum and dedicated to making a difference. People's hate and petty jealousies are not going to stop that. The site has been read by millions and will continue to be read by millions more.

Very few places exist where individuals comments are read by so many.

We have had Natalee's family support from the beginning and will continue to do so. No one knows loss more than Beth Holloway and very few people have had the opportunity to see that sadness up close and person as I have. When it occurs its nearly brings me to tears; however, then it makes me even stronger to finish the job and continue fighting for the family.

That's what this is about to all the misguided individuals out there. Getting results for victims. Those that would want to stop such an effort may want to question why they claim to be for the family.

Sorry for the rant, but felt it was needed.

Thanks for the wonderful words Red! Touching also.

May God Bless You and let nobody forget what it`s all about . . Justice for Natalee

Just non selfish Truth and Justice