Natalee Case Discussion #803 2/25/09 - 3/1/09

[jen3560]

Correct - Dec 29th there were NO people in the water.

ROV only dive.

First time people dove was Dec 30th (according to Kyle).

[Anna]

Hi monkeys. Long time lurker... this is my first post. I've never had anything to add. I still don't, but I do have some questions. Do you think maybe there was no "vision" from the detective/brother? That always seemed weird. And if ALE and the crew became "partners".... why aren't the detective/brother found with hands in there pockets for causing this trouble? I'm wondering if maybe a deal was struck prior to arriving in Aruba. Or at least "we think we know where she's at. If you find her, we'll give you XXXXX". I think the cage was found VERY quick. One of the first targets looked at. It seems like someone knew they would find it.

Probably way off here, but I wanted to get some reactions to this.

Keep up the good work.

kls,
Welcome to the cage!

I don't know the answers to your questions but have never personally believed any of that information came from any vision.

.

[Tamikosmom]

Does anybody know if Tim Trahan was one of the divers on the December 29th dive.  The ROV images from this dive convinced Kyle Kingman and Tim Miller that Natalee Holloway's remains had been located.

Thank you.

Janet

_______ 


KYLE KINGSMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS.

Kyle: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.  John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

BUMPED

I don't know, Janet.  I always thought the 29th was the ROV-only dive.

Thank you for responding Lifesong.

According to Kyle Kingman's own words in the above quotes there was a dive on December 29, 2007 and another one on December 30, 2007 (Dateline).  Then there was a meeting on board the Persistence with the Arubans prior to December 30, 2007.

Janet

[texasmom]

I don't know if this helps but Kyle does say in this response to me that the dive on the 29th was the first "ROV" dive on the trap.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Does anybody know if Tim Trahan was one of the divers on the December 29th dive.  The ROV images from this dive convinced Kyle Kingman and Tim Miller that Natalee Holloway's remains had been located.

Thank you.

Janet

_______ 


KYLE KINGSMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS.

Kyle: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.  John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

BUMPED

I don't know, Janet.  I always thought the 29th was the ROV-only dive.

Thank you for responding Lifesong.

According to Kyle Kingman's own words in the above quotes there was a dive on December 29, 2007 and another one on December 30, 2007 (Dateline).  Then there was a meeting on board the Persistence with the Arubans prior to December 30, 2007.

Janet

Janet, I do understand what you are saying.  Kyle mentions diver sampling then John's arranging the next dive on the 30th. 

[Tamikosmom]

I don't know if this helps but Kyle does say in this response to me that the dive on the 29th was the first "ROV" dive on the trap.

Thank you texasmom

This quote of Kyle Kingman does imply that it was one an "ROV" dive on the December 29th.

Janet

[Lifesong]

Here's the post of Kyle's that I have linked to 12/30/07...



http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

oceanexploration
   Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.  Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks. 
 
 
 

[Tamikosmom]

Does anybody know if Tim Trahan was one of the divers on the December 29th dive.  The ROV images from this dive convinced Kyle Kingman and Tim Miller that Natalee Holloway's remains had been located.

Thank you.

Janet

_______ 


KYLE KINGSMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS.

Kyle: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.  John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

BUMPED

I don't know, Janet.  I always thought the 29th was the ROV-only dive.

Thank you for responding Lifesong.

According to Kyle Kingman's own words in the above quotes there was a dive on December 29, 2007 and another one on December 30, 2007 (Dateline).  Then there was a meeting on board the Persistence with the Arubans prior to December 30, 2007.

Janet

Janet, I do understand what you are saying.  Kyle mentions diver sampling then John's arranging the next dive on the 30th. 

Thank you 2NJSons_Mom

When you consider Kyle Kingman's words in the quote below that texasmom provided ... it appears that it was only an ROV dive that took place on December 29th.  The sampling by the Aruban divers must have been done on December 30th ... the day that Dateline viewers were led to believe that there was nothing case related in the cage/trap ... the day that Tim Miller notified Natalee's parents that there was nothing case related in the cage/trap ... the day that Tim Trahan could not stay down long enough to let the silt settle from a passing skate prior to determining if there was anything case related in the cage/trap.

 

I am soooo angry.

Janet

++++++++


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #777 11/21/08 thru
« Reply #707 on: November 23, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »

I found the trap sonar target at 1:42 am on Christmas morning.  I was asked if I had any targets to investigate with the ROV on Dev 29th.  I did.  We then performed the 1st ROV dive and confirmed the sonar target was the trap.  This was the first ROV dive performed.  No other dives were performed prior to this.  I kept the sonar target list very confidential.  I didn't need people knowing about it and people on board knew well enough not even to ask.  When it was time to dive I have the target location. Until then, it was kept confidential.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.msg554268;topicseen#msg554268

[Lifesong]

11/21/07 - Re-arrests based on "new evidence" resulting from Dutch 'cold-case' investigators

11/29/07 - Lazlo @ RU posts:  "No one from the OM has claimed the new evidence was Joran talking to Kalpoes, but Joran talking to a friend. IMO"

11/30/07 - Persistence leaves Louisiana
12/01/07 - Kalpoes released, no charges, no new evidence
12/07/07 - Joran ordered released, no charges, no new evidence
12/15/07 - Persistence arrives late; was delayed by storm
12/20/07 - Caplocks registers
12/??/07 - "Shortly before Christmas" - ALE Detective/brother meet with Persistence crew
12/22/07 - Persistence crew builds a 'local material trap' to test the sensing equipment
12/25/07 - TRAP FOUND
12/29/07 - ROV dive
12/30/07 - Meeting on the Persistence
12/30/07 - Trahan dive (we've only seen the one done for the Dateline camera)
01/07/08 - TRAP CLEANED OUT BY ONLY ALE DIVERS
01/10/08 - 1st day of taping the Range Rover confessions w/Patrick

<snip>

Edit to add 11-29 hinkiness

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, I do understand what you are saying.  Kyle mentions diver sampling then John's arranging the next dive on the 30th. 

Thank you 2NJSons_Mom

When you consider Kyle Kingman's words in the quote below that texasmom provided ... it appears that it was only an ROV dive that took place on December 29th.  The sampling by the Aruban divers must have been done on December 30th ... the day that Dateline viewers were led to believe that there was nothing case related in the cage/trap ... the day that Tim Miller notified Natalee's parents that there was nothing case related in the cage/trap ... the day that Tim Trahan could not stay down long enough to let the silt settle from a passing skate prior to determining if there was anything case related in the cage/trap.

 

I am soooo angry.

Janet

++++++++


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #777 11/21/08 thru
« Reply #707 on: November 23, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »

I found the trap sonar target at 1:42 am on Christmas morning.  I was asked if I had any targets to investigate with the ROV on Dev 29th.  I did.  We then performed the 1st ROV dive and confirmed the sonar target was the trap.  This was the first ROV dive performed.  No other dives were performed prior to this.  I kept the sonar target list very confidential.  I didn't need people knowing about it and people on board knew well enough not even to ask.  When it was time to dive I have the target location. Until then, it was kept confidential.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.msg554268;topicseen#msg554268

KYLE KINGSMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS.

Kyle: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.  John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Janet,

In Lifesong's post above, OE's quoted post only mentions sampling on Video 3 on January 7, 2008.         

[Tamikosmom]

11/21/07 - Re-arrests based on "new evidence" resulting from Dutch 'cold-case' investigators

11/29/07 - Lazlo @ RU posts:  "No one from the OM has claimed the new evidence was Joran talking to Kalpoes, but Joran talking to a friend. IMO"

11/30/07 - Persistence leaves Louisiana
12/01/07 - Kalpoes released, no charges, no new evidence
12/07/07 - Joran ordered released, no charges, no new evidence
12/15/07 - Persistence arrives late; was delayed by storm
12/20/07 - Caplocks registers
12/??/07 - "Shortly before Christmas" - ALE Detective/brother meet with Persistence crew
12/22/07 - Persistence crew builds a 'local material trap' to test the sensing equipment
12/25/07 - TRAP FOUND
12/29/07 - ROV dive
12/30/07 - Meeting on the Persistence
12/30/07 - Trahan dive (we've only seen the one done for the Dateline camera)
01/07/08 - TRAP CLEANED OUT BY ONLY ALE DIVERS
01/10/08 - 1st day of taping the Range Rover confessions w/Patrick

<snip>

Edit to add 11-29 hinkiness

Looking good Lifesong!  Your timeline is a Godsend to me.

Janet
______

Ockham's Razor
You must never fail to adopt the simplest idea as your working hypothesis. If necessity demands, you can dump it later when you have more data, but only because it is no longer the simplest idea" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity

[Tamikosmom]

Janet,

In Lifesong's post above, OE's quoted post only mentions sampling on Video 3 on January 7, 2008.         

.... and I thought that I finally got it!

 

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

2NJSons_Mom ... have a wonderful "warm" vacation.  I will miss ya.

Monkeys ... I got some packing to do myself.  Eight of us are climbing into our church's mini bus (seats 12) mid morning tomorrow and headed south to the Seattle for the weekend.  The Lion King production on Saturday evening will be the highlight.  We will be back on Sunday evening.

Have a great weekend all.

Janet
3:45 PM PT

[2NJSons_Mom]

Janet,

In Lifesong's post above, OE's quoted post only mentions sampling on Video 3 on January 7, 2008.         

.... and I thought that I finally got it!

 

Janet

The 7th was the date we all have known to be the ALE sampling/collection from the cage.  I do agree that Kyle's words speaking of the 29th & 30th, then incorporating diver's sampling verbiage can be confusing and possibly misinterpreted. 

[2NJSons_Mom]

2NJSons_Mom ... have a wonderful "warm" vacation.  I will miss ya.

Monkeys ... I got some packing to do myself.  Eight of us are climbing into our church's mini bus (seats 12) mid morning tomorrow and headed south to the Seattle for the weekend.  The Lion King production on Saturday evening will be the highlight.  We will be back on Sunday evening.

Have a great weekend all.

Janet
3:45 PM PT

Thank you, Janet.  Have a wonderful weekend!!  I'll miss you, too....edit, edit.         Just kidding!!

[Tamikosmom]

2NJSons_Mom ... have a wonderful "warm" vacation.  I will miss ya.

Monkeys ... I got some packing to do myself.  Eight of us are climbing into our church's mini bus (seats 12) mid morning tomorrow and headed south to the Seattle for the weekend.  The Lion King production on Saturday evening will be the highlight.  We will be back on Sunday evening.

Have a great weekend all.

Janet
3:45 PM PT

Thank you, Janet.  Have a wonderful weekend!!  I'll miss you, too....edit, edit.         Just kidding!!

 

[Lifesong]

11/21/07 - Re-arrests based on "new evidence" resulting from Dutch 'cold-case' investigators

11/29/07 - Lazlo @ RU posts:  "No one from the OM has claimed the new evidence was Joran talking to Kalpoes, but Joran talking to a friend. IMO"

11/30/07 - Persistence leaves Louisiana
12/01/07 - Kalpoes released, no charges, no new evidence
12/07/07 - Joran ordered released, no charges, no new evidence
12/15/07 - Persistence arrives late; was delayed by storm
12/20/07 - Caplocks registers
12/??/07 - "Shortly before Christmas" - ALE Detective/brother meet with Persistence crew
12/22/07 - Persistence crew builds a 'local material trap' to test the sensing equipment
12/25/07 - TRAP FOUND
12/29/07 - ROV dive
12/30/07 - Meeting on the Persistence
12/30/07 - Trahan dive (we've only seen the one done for the Dateline camera)
01/07/08 - TRAP CLEANED OUT BY ONLY ALE DIVERS
01/10/08 - 1st day of taping the Range Rover confessions w/Patrick

<snip>

Edit to add 11-29 hinkiness

Looking good Lifesong!  Your timeline is a Godsend to me.

Janet
______

Ockham's Razor
You must never fail to adopt the simplest idea as your working hypothesis. If necessity demands, you can dump it later when you have more data, but only because it is no longer the simplest idea" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity

Thanks, Janet, I am familiar with Ockham's Razor.

I apologize if I've upset you, hasn't been my intention.

[Tamikosmom]

11/21/07 - Re-arrests based on "new evidence" resulting from Dutch 'cold-case' investigators

11/29/07 - Lazlo @ RU posts:  "No one from the OM has claimed the new evidence was Joran talking to Kalpoes, but Joran talking to a friend. IMO"

11/30/07 - Persistence leaves Louisiana
12/01/07 - Kalpoes released, no charges, no new evidence
12/07/07 - Joran ordered released, no charges, no new evidence
12/15/07 - Persistence arrives late; was delayed by storm
12/20/07 - Caplocks registers
12/??/07 - "Shortly before Christmas" - ALE Detective/brother meet with Persistence crew
12/22/07 - Persistence crew builds a 'local material trap' to test the sensing equipment
12/25/07 - TRAP FOUND
12/29/07 - ROV dive
12/30/07 - Meeting on the Persistence
12/30/07 - Trahan dive (we've only seen the one done for the Dateline camera)
01/07/08 - TRAP CLEANED OUT BY ONLY ALE DIVERS
01/10/08 - 1st day of taping the Range Rover confessions w/Patrick

<snip>

Edit to add 11-29 hinkiness

Looking good Lifesong!  Your timeline is a Godsend to me.

Janet
______

Ockham's Razor
You must never fail to adopt the simplest idea as your working hypothesis. If necessity demands, you can dump it later when you have more data, but only because it is no longer the simplest idea" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity

Thanks, Janet, I am familiar with Ockham's Razor.

I apologize if I've upset you, hasn't been my intention.

Lifesong ... NOBODY has upset me.

I was just sharing that I was have a difficult time comprehending where all this research is going to fit into the Natalee Holloway case and ... that seem to upset Keepthefaith.  It was never my intention to offend or undermine all his research or the research of others regarding the topic.  I just wanted to understand.  Lifesong ... I wished I had said nothing.

Janet.

[texasmom]

2NJSons_Mom ... have a wonderful "warm" vacation.  I will miss ya.

Monkeys ... I got some packing to do myself.  Eight of us are climbing into our church's mini bus (seats 12) mid morning tomorrow and headed south to the Seattle for the weekend.  The Lion King production on Saturday evening will be the highlight.  We will be back on Sunday evening.

Have a great weekend all.

Janet
3:45 PM PT

Have a wonderful trip Janet, I'm finally back and now you'll be gone!  I will miss you!!!!