Lively Case Discussion #535 10/22 - 10/23/2006

[Anna]

Even if it does not bring those authorities to look into it, hopefully it will be the start of making the entire kingdom aware of what the Slootys have done, thus warning their public of them. Pariahs in their own backyard.[/quote]

Aruba and the Netherlands and to some extent this country as well promote what some call "A Culture of Rape" and have set advances made for women back too many years.  Maybe taken it into even another category for prostitution was brought back legally in the Netherlands around the time of the fall of the Soviet Union so they could take advantage of the impoverished women coming from that region.

This blame the victim mentality is barbaric at the least and yet we see parents teaching it to their children.  Anita saying Natalee should not have gotten in that car is the same as teaching Joran that if he can get Natalee in the car he can do whatever he wants for that is what she is saying to some extent.  This is wrong.  No matter what a person does, it does not give another person the right to take advantage of poor judgment to rape or assault them in any way.  If that kind of thinking applies to rape it can be applied to other crimes as well and the victims blamed every time.

This is wrong.  Women have the same rights as men and should be able to live their lives without unwanted contact and by live their lives this means they are as entitled to sexual expression as any other living being.  No one has the right to even touch another person against their will.  And I am speaking of touch in a sexual nature.  There are no conditions on earth that make that acceptable behavior.  None!

[San]

.
San,
Joran was wearing black pants so I wonder if anything would show until they were put in the laundry?  Do you think the "sand" in Deepak's car that he had to remove was also talking about blood instead of sand?

Also, Ernie Rizzo was involved in this inveatigation at one point working on behalf of the Sloots but I have forgotten who hired him to do so.   Anyone remember?  Was it Joe T?



.

Anna yes I do believe the sand was really blood in Deepak's car.  Where ever they mention sand it is really Blood.  Who would be worried about a little sand in the car.  They used the excuse that Deepak was meticulous with his car as a reason for someone seeing him washing it during the middle of the night.  These three kids are all lazy and if it was sand they would have waited until morning.  There was an urgency that night and the urgency was to get rid of the blood as best he could.

[San]

Good morning friends....

Been reading back....some things come to mind....

Grande's quote...

"Deepak clearly remembers the exchange between Natalee and the other MB'ers after leaving. He even went as far as saying he suggested that Natalee get out and 'go with her friends' after being summoned by the male MB student. To me this suggests guilt, and also suggests Deepak knew of the impending crimes that would be committed"

I realize now that the threesome did not need to wait for the family to arrive on the island to develop an alibi...they knew immediately that they would be fingered by at least one MB student for whatever they did.....only a fool would continue....if anything happened to Natalee...kidnapping, rape, ???....here were American witnesses......someone with an IQ of 10 would have taken her right to the HI.....

I think Sunfreak's idea re the way the injury occurred is right on....at some point she was mortally injured....and I think the three of them were there....
Sunfreak's quote...

"I still think Natalee tried to run at the lighthouse, but her legs were wobbly and she only got as far as the rocks before she tripped or someone tackled her. She was terribly cut and bleeding. They packed her back in the car, drove to the pond to wash up a bit and decide what to do with her. Either they dropped her at the huts with joran, or they dropped them at Joran's apt. I think she was alive for hours after the head injury. She was able to walk with assistance and talk. I think she was bleeding slowly in her head and between the booze, the drugs slipped her and the increasing pressure in her brain, she slipped in unconciousness and then she stopped breathing."


and blah.....I live on Maui for some time and you can hear the waves from a distance....especially at night.....

Mere

Mere I agree with you.  All three were present when Natalee was injured.  Satish's statement proves that when he asked Deepak how the girl was.

[San]

.
San,
Joran was wearing black pants so I wonder if anything would show until they were put in the laundry?  Do you think the "sand" in Deepak's car that he had to remove was also talking about blood instead of sand?

Also, Ernie Rizzo was involved in this inveatigation at one point working on behalf of the Sloots but I have forgotten who hired him to do so.   Anyone remember?  Was it Joe T?



.

Anna, is it confirmed that Joran had black pants on.  Also, if they are black you can still see blood.  Especially if they were washed a few times and were faded a little.  These kids today wear all kinds of black pants especially the ones that are faded a little.

[Anna]

.
Oh, my!  What great posts we have going this morning!!

And I have ot leave but will read them all when I get back.  I see tremendous thought behind each post this morning and the shades of truth that are coming out with these statements.

I wonder if the person who leaked them anticipated that we would see them this way or if it was a member of ALE who thought we might think they did a good job and there was just no evidence.  Did ALE compare one statement with the previous the way we have?  Did they question the truthfulness of the answers?  Or just take them at face value as the truth?  I don't see how when each witness is a mass of contradiction.


Joran's hobby was criminal law.  I believe they had in place now to make an alibi just in case someone brought charges, etc.  I think the use of some date rape drug was part of the routine so the girl could not remember what happened exactly and so could not press charges.  I think the fake phone calls and emails were preplanned things to do in case of trouble.  Twenty times is a lot of rehearsal.  Time to work out any kinks and account for anything really.

Be back later, taters.  Keep up the good work as there is a tremendous amount of information just on this thread alone.

.

[Grande]

Consent VS Kidnapping

Grande writes: "Deepak clearly remembers the exchange between Natalee and the other MB'ers after leaving. He even went as far as saying he suggested that Natalee get out and 'go with her friends' after being summoned by the male MB student. To me this suggests guilt, and also suggests Deepak knew of the impending crimes that would be committed"

I realize now that the threesome did not need to wait for the family to arrive on the island to develop an alibi...they knew immediately that they would be fingered by at least one MB student for whatever they did.....only a fool would continue....if anything happened to Natalee...kidnapping, rape, ???....here were American  witnesses......someone with an IQ of 10 would have taken her right to the HI.....

This is a great post, and an important insight.

IMO, the meeting exchange w/ MB male student when Natalee was in car and leaving the C&C scene, was highlighted by deepak in statements to avoid a kidnapping/abduction rap.  By testifying that Natalee was "willingly" in the car, the chances of "proving" kidnapping are lowered significantly.  Deepak is trying to insulate himself, and by extension, the other two, from these serious charges.

HOWEVER, as you point out, deepak and his car are now fingered and likely positively ID'd as last to be seen w/ Natalee.  The MB student saw them.  With this knowledge available to all 3, why would they proceed with a criminal plan?

Deepak, as more experienced and older perp, claims to stop the car and further claims to invite Natalee to leave the vehicle (both in statement and e-mail) -- why?  Because since he has been ID'd, there's significantly less chance that the nite's festivities proceed unhindered.  BUT, Natalee did not exit the vehicle, as we know.

SO YES!!  They knew they needed an alibi, even before they left Orangstead right after C&C's closed.  

But given this, and as noted above, why do you think they proceeded w/ a criminal plan after being ID'd?  Just stupid and gassed up?  Or some other reason:  other factors compelled them to proceed?

Kidnapping without a doubt.  

Natalee likely suspected this when the surinamese brothers offered a glimpse into their minds by displaying a porno video.  At that point I suspect the atmosphere changed dramatically.  This all before arriving at Arashi where Deepak had to relieve himself only an hour after doing so at CnC's.  I am highly suspicious of this stop and statement by Deepak.   If we agree Natalee was aware of the imminent danger shortly after the porno's then certainly she would have made an attempt to escape when Deepak stopped.  Or could this have been a stop necessary to subdue Natalee?

[mrs. red]

OFF TOPIC ALERT>>> RANT ALERT>>>


 Easywriter, KISS MY A{{edit}}!  You came on this blog, threatened me, Red, Dana and other posters time and time again and yet we continued to allow your self absorbed posting of your picture over and over and over because some people felt sorry for you.... so we gave you the benefit of the doubt.  Then you bring your arguments with other blogs on this site and we were supposed to tolerate that as well....but this time he has gone too far... REd sent him the book that he bought at the auction and now I have sent at MY OWN PERSONAL COST OF OVER $20 another copy via UPS.... if I need to go to his level and publish the damn tracking number with his information, I will do it.

THIS site does not take money from ANYONE and not deliver what was promised, hell some people will tell you that it took forever to get their cookbook checks cashed because I wanted to be sure there was delivery before I cashed the check....

so take this rant for what's it worth... I am PISSED!


TO every single one of you that understand why I am so upset I thank you from the bottom of my heart...

rant over... sorry.

[msmarple]

Does anyone have the Jerry Strawberry / Beach assailant comparison photo readily accessible?

Thanks in advance,
Grande

Grande - If no one else has responded (and I know it's Klaas Class time    ), a comparison is here:
http://tinyurl.com/r84vy

Future reference, it's included in the Murder & Crime thread summary, as part of the Tracey Allen incident.

[San]

Good to see you MeMere!

I think Sunfreak's theory about 'how' it happened is spot on.

It's the first thing that came to mind the first few days -- when we heard they took her to the lighthouse before dropping her off. That she got hurt trying to run away from them

I also thought there was a possibility that she 'fell' over an edge into the water since she was not familiar with the area and she was impaired.

I've also thought that some of the 'alibi' stuff was SOP. They did this 20 times before. I feel that they had an 'alibi' package already set in the event any of the previous 20 decided to try to file charges. Remember Deepak's comments -- yada yada yada -- and they can check my phone records. Very rehearsed.

I think a lot of the alibi was preplanned -- but this time was different. Something bad happened.

And I agree -- I live in south Florida (on Biscayne Bay though -- no waves) and I've been a 'beach' person my whole life. Hawaii, Caribbean, New Jersey, Florida, California ..... There's nothing more peaceful than being 'near' the beach, sleeping with the windows open and listening to the waves -- crashing or lapping -- onto the shore. zzzzzzzzzz

I have said this from the beginning and I will stick with this.  If Natalle was in fact severely wounded they brought her back to the Van der Sloots.  They did not help her.  I believe it was Paulus Van der Sloot's decision not to help Natalee.  The boys ran to daddy for help because they knew she was hurt. Daddy did not help because he knew how bad this was for Joran.  Joran's life would be over as he knew it.  Paulus decided it would be better off to make Natalee disappear.  He never figured Beth would be as tough as she was.  He thought it would all blow over because he was dealing with a bunch of stupid Americans.

CHARGES AGAINST PAULUS:  ACCESSORY TO PREMEDITATED MURDER.

[robots]

OFF TOPIC ALERT>>> RANT ALERT>>>


 Easywriter, KISS MY A{{edit}}!  You came on this blog, threatened me, Red, Dana and other posters time and time again and yet we continued to allow your self absorbed posting of your picture over and over and over because some people felt sorry for you.... so we gave you the benefit of the doubt.  Then you bring your arguments with other blogs on this site and we were supposed to tolerate that as well....but this time he has gone too far... REd sent him the book that he bought at the auction and now I have sent at MY OWN PERSONAL COST OF OVER $20 another copy via UPS.... if I need to go to his level and publish the damn tracking number with his information, I will do it.

THIS site does not take money from ANYONE and not deliver what was promised, hell some people will tell you that it took forever to get their cookbook checks cashed because I wanted to be sure there was delivery before I cashed the check....

so take this rant for what's it worth... I am PISSED!


TO every single one of you that understand why I am so upset I thank you from the bottom of my heart...

rant over... sorry.

Mrs. Red
please continue to RANT anytime


anna does all the time





  and we love it

anna - im just teasing - i love the rants    

[Grande]

Does anyone have the Jerry Strawberry / Beach assailant comparison photo readily accessible?

Thanks in advance,
Grande

Grande - If no one else has responded (and I know it's Klaas Class time    ), a comparison is here:
http://tinyurl.com/r84vy

Future reference, it's included in the Murder & Crime thread summary, as part of the Tracey Allen incident.

Ah thank you Msmarple as always.

Cheremy Croes is no relation to Steve.  They are as you know very good friends.  Cheremy has Downs Syndrome.  With regards to the Tracy Allen incident;  Cheremy/Jerry drives a "very very small car" I was told.  Trying to find out what make and model.

[msmarple]

Does anyone have the Jerry Strawberry / Beach assailant comparison photo readily accessible?

Thanks in advance,
Grande

Grande - If no one else has responded (and I know it's Klaas Class time    ), a comparison is here:
http://tinyurl.com/r84vy

Future reference, it's included in the Murder & Crime thread summary, as part of the Tracey Allen incident.

Sorry - had an extra space after the URL; messed it up.

[the big hammer]

The Words of Joran van der Sloot

Grande writes: "...Natalee likely suspected this when the surinamese brothers offered a glimpse into their minds by displaying a porno video. At that point I suspect the atmosphere changed dramatically..."

SO, things may have been fine in the car, until they reached LaCabana and Satish put on the porno DVD.  So even if the MB student saw Natalee in the car a bit earlier -- everything would have "seemed" fine.

But it is when Natalee is alone w/ them and the DVD goes in that she begins to realize she's in danger.

Recall the words of joran when it was time to turn the DVD off: SHE'S HAD ENOUGH...

Why would he use these words, this expression?  "Enough" of what? Viewing a pornographic scene?  Or something else...

The time warp of criminal sexual assault is at work in some aspects of these statements; meaning that while aspects of the stories are relayed and transcripted in certain chronological  fashion, imo, there are instances where that does not accurately reflect what happened and what was said -- AT THE PRECISE TIME WHEN IT REALLY HAPPENED.  Their recollection is fueled by fear and contrivance, and the blood rush of the events they've authored and this reconstructs their memories of what actually happened, which is further warped by devious re-writing of the events for testimony.  And this a case in point: I have always believed that jvds really did say: "SHE'S HAD ENOUGH" -- but I don't think it had anything to do with the porn.

.

[blah]

OFF TOPIC ALERT>>> RANT ALERT>>>


 Easywriter, KISS MY A{{edit}}!  You came on this blog, threatened me, Red, Dana and other posters time and time again and yet we continued to allow your self absorbed posting of your picture over and over and over because some people felt sorry for you.... so we gave you the benefit of the doubt.  Then you bring your arguments with other blogs on this site and we were supposed to tolerate that as well....but this time he has gone too far... REd sent him the book that he bought at the auction and now I have sent at MY OWN PERSONAL COST OF OVER $20 another copy via UPS.... if I need to go to his level and publish the damn tracking number with his information, I will do it.

THIS site does not take money from ANYONE and not deliver what was promised, hell some people will tell you that it took forever to get their cookbook checks cashed because I wanted to be sure there was delivery before I cashed the check....

so take this rant for what's it worth... I am PISSED!


TO every single one of you that understand why I am so upset I thank you from the bottom of my heart...

rant over... sorry.

You call that a rant?  You didnt even use Sumbich one time  

















 

[mrs. red]

OFF TOPIC ALERT>>> RANT ALERT>>>


 Easywriter, KISS MY A{{edit}}!  You came on this blog, threatened me, Red, Dana and other posters time and time again and yet we continued to allow your self absorbed posting of your picture over and over and over because some people felt sorry for you.... so we gave you the benefit of the doubt.  Then you bring your arguments with other blogs on this site and we were supposed to tolerate that as well....but this time he has gone too far... REd sent him the book that he bought at the auction and now I have sent at MY OWN PERSONAL COST OF OVER $20 another copy via UPS.... if I need to go to his level and publish the damn tracking number with his information, I will do it.

THIS site does not take money from ANYONE and not deliver what was promised, hell some people will tell you that it took forever to get their cookbook checks cashed because I wanted to be sure there was delivery before I cashed the check....

so take this rant for what's it worth... I am PISSED!


TO every single one of you that understand why I am so upset I thank you from the bottom of my heart...

rant over... sorry.

You call that a rant?  You didnt even use Sumbich one time  

 

OK... put that in too!

[robots]

The Words of Joran van der Sloot

Grande writes: "...Natalee likely suspected this when the surinamese brothers offered a glimpse into their minds by displaying a porno video. At that point I suspect the atmosphere changed dramatically..."

SO, things may have been fine in the car, until they reached LaCabana and Satish put on the porno DVD.  So even if the MB student saw Natalee in the car a bit earlier -- everything would have "seemed" fine.

But it is when Natalee is alone w/ them and the DVD goes in that she begins to realize she's in danger.

Recall the words of joran when it was time to turn the DVD off: SHE'S HAD ENOUGH...

Why would he use these words, this expression?  "Enough" of what? Viewing a pornographic scene?  Or something else...

The time warp of criminal sexual assault is at work in some aspects of these statements; meaning that while aspects of the stories are relayed and transcripted in certain chronological  fashion, imo, there are instances where that does not accurately reflect what happened and what was said -- AT THE PRECISE TIME WHEN IT REALLY HAPPENED.  Their recollection is fueled by fear and contrivance, and the blood rush of the events they've authored and this reconstructs their memories of what actually happened, which is further warped by devious re-writing of the events for testimony.  And this a case in point: I have always believed that jvds really did say: "SHE'S HAD ENOUGH" -- but I don't think it had anything to do with the porn.

.

they saw that the DRUGS were taking effect on Natalee that was SLINKED into the Drink.   they figured she did not need any more of the drink or the drug

thus the "SHE'S HAD ENOUGH"


 

[San]

Does anyone have the Jerry Strawberry / Beach assailant comparison photo readily accessible?

Thanks in advance,
Grande

Grande - If no one else has responded (and I know it's Klaas Class time    ), a comparison is here:
http://tinyurl.com/r84vy

Future reference, it's included in the Murder & Crime thread summary, as part of the Tracey Allen incident.

Ah thank you Msmarple as always.

Cheremy Croes is no relation to Steve.  They are as you know very good friends.  Cheremy has Downs Syndrome.  With regards to the Tracy Allen incident;  Cheremy/Jerry drives a "very very small car" I was told.  Trying to find out what make and model.

I'm not klaas but here they are side by side:

[Grande]

Does anyone have the Jerry Strawberry / Beach assailant comparison photo readily accessible?

Thanks in advance,
Grande

Grande - If no one else has responded (and I know it's Klaas Class time    ), a comparison is here:
http://tinyurl.com/r84vy

Future reference, it's included in the Murder & Crime thread summary, as part of the Tracey Allen incident.

Ah thank you Msmarple as always.

Cheremy Croes is no relation to Steve.  They are as you know very good friends.  Cheremy has Downs Syndrome.  With regards to the Tracy Allen incident;  Cheremy/Jerry drives a "very very small car" I was told.  Trying to find out what make and model.

I'm not klaas but here they are side by side:

San thanks, check this one out > http://i13.tinypic.com/339ub11.jpg

WE SHOULD SEND THIS EVERYWHERE!

[blah]

funny hpw a bunch of monkeys thousands of miles away can solve this one over the internet but the dam frosted flake eating pigs on the hellhole rock cant figure it out

[San]

Grande - If no one else has responded (and I know it's Klaas Class time    ), a comparison is here:
http://tinyurl.com/r84vy

Future reference, it's included in the Murder & Crime thread summary, as part of the Tracey Allen incident.

Ah thank you Msmarple as always.

Cheremy Croes is no relation to Steve.  They are as you know very good friends.  Cheremy has Downs Syndrome.  With regards to the Tracy Allen incident;  Cheremy/Jerry drives a "very very small car" I was told.  Trying to find out what make and model.

I'm not klaas but here they are side by side:

San thanks, check this one out > http://i13.tinypic.com/339ub11.jpg

WE SHOULD SEND THIS EVERYWHERE!

WOW they look exactly alike.