Natalee Case Discussion #804 3/1/09 - 3/6/09

[jen3560]

The thing that has always bothered me is why did they wait from December 30 till January 7 to dive
on the site again.
If I were an American citizen looking for another American citizen and had seen the cage/trap
with wat appeared to be a skull in it, there is no way I would have let it sit there for a week
without going down and checking it out.  I would have not waited on Aruban divers.
If Edwardo was on board, fine ...dive with him or without, but check it out.
It does not make sense to just let it sit there.

The reason it was abandonded by Persistence was because of John Silvetti.  He was the only project lead aboard after he gave Tim Miller the boot, and after Tim Trahan left (for parts and reasons unknown to us).

December 30th is the date John took Aruban divers at their word - not case related, go out to deeper waters.

In no uncertain terms, he told Kyle (in the face of Kyle's objections) that there was to be no more discussion about that cage.

[Anna]

I ask this question about once a month:

What happened to Greta's big renewal of interest in the case and Joran??? September - October, she spent big bucks and big air-time on Joran and his sit-down interview about "human trafficking". In November, the big "secret" was that she and Beth were heading back to Aruba -- Caps said "big arrests" were happening too.

Since then (3 months later) ----- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MENTIONED!!!!

 

Didn't you hear?  They are saying it's all our fault.

Actually, San, I didn't hear this one.  How on earth did we do all this?

Mos had already interviewed the pond witness last March and determined the witness not to be credible.  Don't think we had much input into that.

But I never cease to be amazed at the accusations when one doesn't support somebody's pet theory!


.

[jen3560]

Anna, I don't think the Jan. 7th dive had happened yet when Kyle sent the FBI the other pictures, so I don't think he sent some pictures and at the very same time didn't send the others.  If that's the case, then I'm back to asking if they planted the evidence to scam the media for money.  My impression has been he sent the photos more in real time - that day or very soon thereafter.

Hopefully the Freebirds will come back and help us.  I'm concerned that they've left and I hope its not because I have questions.

I also believe that Kyle sent the Dec 29 images to the FBI in somewhat real time.

There is one thing to keep in mind that could answer many, many of the questions raised here yesterday.

John Silvetti followed Aruba's lead on December 30th.  They said the cage was not case related - and he complied with that determination.

From piecing everything together - that is when and why everything from that point forward was halted by Persistence crew (including Kyle) in following through on that cage and its contents.

The one thing that has stuck in my mind to confirm both Kyle and Miller's belief in what they had found - was the first reason Silvetti gave Kyle for having Miller removed from the ship.

"After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability."

Why, if they hadn't found what they were looking for, was Tim Miller no longer necessary after they found that cage? 

Remember - Tim Miller was the person armed with the information from Dave Holloway regarding tips that led them to the ocean in the first place.



And Lifesong - absolutely NOT!!!!!  It's ALWAYS a good thing to ask questions.  Always.

Each and every person has to make up his/her own mind about information - and the only way to do that is to ask questions until a person is satisfied one way or another.

Natalee's Freebirds have always put the facts in front of the reader - and adopted the stance of:

"You Be The Judge"

That hasn't changed.

[nonesuche]

I just viewed the first advertisement I have seen as I was scrolling channels for the Lifetime movie for Natalee Holloway. The date for the premiere is Sunday, April 19th.

Can anyone answer this question for me please. When Debbie at BFN posted her solicitation for donations to be made to the Persistence search effort, did she then post that request at SM? Or was that post just brought over here by other SM posters?

TIA !

[jen3560]

Thanks Magnolia and Anna.

The quotes were all on the SM Site or Kyle's blogs ... it was just a matter of compiling Kyle's own words in an order that told of the deception of the Persistence.

To tell the truth ... I had worked very hard to day articulating introductions to each part.  However ... DIL was a little leary when you consider there are those "out there" who would twist my words and ... claim I defamed John Silvetti.

Well ... I will be gone tomorrow.  Seven year old grandaughter is in an inter-school public speaking contest tomorrow.  I will be watching her do her thing while Papa is teacher on call (TOC) for home schooled older brother.  Mom will be attending a field trip with younger brother.  While Dad is away (pilot) ... Mom sometimes gets somewhat overwhelmed.

It's crazy!

Janet
8:25 PM PT

Great Job janet!!

And your DIL was correct in her thoughts and feelings. 

[jen3560]

"genuous" isn't a word  --is it!?! 

I understood what you were aiming at when I read it.   

[Anna]

   

Wakey, wakey!
Eggs and Bakey!

GOOD MORNING, ALL MONKEYS!

We are going to need a big breakfast with lots of protein today.

No fruit and toast for us today.


.

[jen3560]

Buckshot - I think you are pretty darned close!!

Anna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   How did you know I am starving?!?!?!?

 

[Anna]

And for Wreck:

[Anna]

Buckshot - I think you are pretty darned close!!

Anna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   How did you know I am starving?!?!?!?

 



Hard working monkeys always need a good breakfast!


.

[Anna]

I just viewed the first advertisement I have seen as I was scrolling channels for the Lifetime movie for Natalee Holloway. The date for the premiere is Sunday, April 19th.

Can anyone answer this question for me please. When Debbie at BFN posted her solicitation for donations to be made to the Persistence search effort, did she then post that request at SM? Or was that post just brought over here by other SM posters?

TIA !

Nonesuche,

That's the best news I have heard in a very long time!

This is going to be some of the best publicity ever for this tragedy and will certainly let Aruba know that Natalee has NOT been forgotten as they have so hoped would happen.

[jen3560]

Buckshot - I think you are pretty darned close!!

Anna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   How did you know I am starving?!?!?!?

 



Hard working monkeys always need a good breakfast!


.

Unfortunately I'm sitting here with the flu, munching on saltines and sipping 7-Up. 

Anything else simply makes my stomach revolt.  But looking at that pic of the eggs and bakey made me smile and look forward to upcoming days/hours when I can eat real food again. 

[Anna]

Jen,

You haven't been in the Musings Thread, have you?

They all have that over there as well.

[Lifesong]

Anna, I don't think the Jan. 7th dive had happened yet when Kyle sent the FBI the other pictures, so I don't think he sent some pictures and at the very same time didn't send the others.  If that's the case, then I'm back to asking if they planted the evidence to scam the media for money.  My impression has been he sent the photos more in real time - that day or very soon thereafter.

Hopefully the Freebirds will come back and help us.  I'm concerned that they've left and I hope its not because I have questions.

I also believe that Kyle sent the Dec 29 images to the FBI in somewhat real time.

There is one thing to keep in mind that could answer many, many of the questions raised here yesterday.

John Silvetti followed Aruba's lead on December 30th.  They said the cage was not case related - and he complied with that determination.

From piecing everything together - that is when and why everything from that point forward was halted by Persistence crew (including Kyle) in following through on that cage and its contents.

The one thing that has stuck in my mind to confirm both Kyle and Miller's belief in what they had found - was the first reason Silvetti gave Kyle for having Miller removed from the ship.

"After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability."

Why, if they hadn't found what they were looking for, was Tim Miller no longer necessary after they found that cage? 

Remember - Tim Miller was the person armed with the information from Dave Holloway regarding tips that led them to the ocean in the first place.



And Lifesong - absolutely NOT!!!!!  It's ALWAYS a good thing to ask questions.  Always.

Each and every person has to make up his/her own mind about information - and the only way to do that is to ask questions until a person is satisfied one way or another.

Natalee's Freebirds have always put the facts in front of the reader - and adopted the stance of:

"You Be The Judge"

That hasn't changed.

Thank you, Jen!  I'm very relieved.  I so hope that Red is able to get some clarificaton of the Silvett-Tim Miller issue from Tim, though it wouldn't surprise me if Tim would rather not comment on it.

Did Kyle ever give any indication of what the Aruban divers said they saw other than "not case related"?  I have a feeling that maybe they didn't speak in English in front of the Persistence crew?  It to have been quite a scene when the visual descriptions didn't support the pictures and ALE/MOS changed their opinions outright.

[jen3560]

Jen,

You haven't been in the Musings Thread, have you?

They all have that over there as well.

No - I haven't.  So that's not where I caught it from 

Poor Monkeys!!  The flu is never fun...........and this is the first time I've had it in probably 11 years or so.

[jen3560]

There were questions yesterday about the FBI and how/when Kyle had a channel with them.

My presumption is that channel was opened up thru Dave Holloway, possibly via Tim Miller.

A discussion between Kyle and myself on March 21 2008:

Kyle wrote:

The FBI told me they could not send a representative down to us in Aruba unless they were specifically invited to do so by the Aruban authorities. They were simply uninvited.

I wrote:

You're KIDDING me?!?!?!?!

So the FBI wanted to send someone - but no one on Aruba said "ok"?

Or was the FBI merely waiting for an invitation that never came?


Kyle wrote:

The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.
-------------

I don't know when (or with whom) this conversation with the FBI took place.  I would presume that was something Dave Holloway ascertained prior to the Persistence ever leaving for Aruba.

[jen3560]

Nonesuche,

Here is something I had found way back when about the recovery of human remains at sea.

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/may06/cruise_crime052206.htm

"When a crime does occur at sea, several factors determine whether the U.S. has legal jurisdiction. A complicated weave of international law applies, but as a rule, the FBI leads investigations of the following scenarios:

If the ship is U.S.-owned, regardless of the nationality of the victim or perpetrator;

If the crime occurs in U.S. territorial waters (within 12 miles of the coast);

If the victim or perpetrator is a U.S. national on a ship that departed or is arriving at a U.S. port;

If it's an act of terrorism against the U.S."

When a crime occurs outside U.S. jurisdiction, FBI legal attachés work with local officials and the authorities conducting the investigations. Most countries welcome FBI assistance in collecting evidence, and in some cases they invite our agents and analysts to play a larger role.
---------------

Obviously without confirmation to the contrary (living or deceased at the time in question) the only "crime at sea" in question is disposal of a body.

[jen3560]

Anna, I don't think the Jan. 7th dive had happened yet when Kyle sent the FBI the other pictures, so I don't think he sent some pictures and at the very same time didn't send the others.  If that's the case, then I'm back to asking if they planted the evidence to scam the media for money.  My impression has been he sent the photos more in real time - that day or very soon thereafter.

Hopefully the Freebirds will come back and help us.  I'm concerned that they've left and I hope its not because I have questions.

I also believe that Kyle sent the Dec 29 images to the FBI in somewhat real time.

There is one thing to keep in mind that could answer many, many of the questions raised here yesterday.

John Silvetti followed Aruba's lead on December 30th.  They said the cage was not case related - and he complied with that determination.

From piecing everything together - that is when and why everything from that point forward was halted by Persistence crew (including Kyle) in following through on that cage and its contents.

The one thing that has stuck in my mind to confirm both Kyle and Miller's belief in what they had found - was the first reason Silvetti gave Kyle for having Miller removed from the ship.

"After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability."

Why, if they hadn't found what they were looking for, was Tim Miller no longer necessary after they found that cage? 

Remember - Tim Miller was the person armed with the information from Dave Holloway regarding tips that led them to the ocean in the first place.



And Lifesong - absolutely NOT!!!!!  It's ALWAYS a good thing to ask questions.  Always.

Each and every person has to make up his/her own mind about information - and the only way to do that is to ask questions until a person is satisfied one way or another.

Natalee's Freebirds have always put the facts in front of the reader - and adopted the stance of:

"You Be The Judge"

That hasn't changed.

Thank you, Jen!  I'm very relieved.  I so hope that Red is able to get some clarificaton of the Silvett-Tim Miller issue from Tim, though it wouldn't surprise me if Tim would rather not comment on it.

Did Kyle ever give any indication of what the Aruban divers said they saw other than "not case related"?  I have a feeling that maybe they didn't speak in English in front of the Persistence crew?  It to have been quite a scene when the visual descriptions didn't support the pictures and ALE/MOS changed their opinions outright.

Rocks.  Kyle told us the Aruban divers claimed all the saw were rocks and sponges inside that cage.

[Lifesong]

Thank you, Jen!  I'm very relieved.  I so hope that Red is able to get some clarificaton of the Silvett-Tim Miller issue from Tim, though it wouldn't surprise me if Tim would rather not comment on it.

Did Kyle ever give any indication of what the Aruban divers said they saw other than "not case related"?  I have a feeling that maybe they didn't speak in English in front of the Persistence crew?  It to have been quite a scene when the visual descriptions didn't support the pictures and ALE/MOS changed their opinions outright.

Rocks.  Kyle told us the Aruban divers claimed all the saw were rocks and sponges inside that cage.

Well...that's just infuriating! 

I've got some other business to take care of today, so I'm gonna chew on all this while I do.

Have a great day everyone!  Be back this afternoon...

[Nut44x4]

I just viewed the first advertisement I have seen as I was scrolling channels for the Lifetime movie for Natalee Holloway. The date for the premiere is Sunday, April 19th.

Can anyone answer this question for me please. When Debbie at BFN posted her solicitation for donations to be made to the Persistence search effort, did she then post that request at SM? Or was that post just brought over here by other SM posters?

TIA !

Hi noneee
I scanned Debbie's posts. She did not post it here. I do not know who posted it.