Natalee Case Discussion #804 3/1/09 - 3/6/09

[Rob]

Good Morning Monks and Monkettes -

This is kinda in response to Lifesong's post a few pages back.

I, too, have NO idea who was in the trap. I am sure there was someone. I'm sure there were human remains and agreed with wreck over a year ago when he saw something hinky at the time. We were probably the only two at the time that thought it COULD BE Natalee. There might have been others, but we were kinda steadfast and took a heaping load of crap from some.

Who could be in the trap?

Well, it could be literally anyone.

It could be an Aruban - after-all the ocean is big and Arubans have probably been dumping other Arubans, Colombians, Venezuelans, and God only knows who else out there. When you live on an island - the ocean is a prime locale for dumping bodies. The are undoubtedly other Americans out there too. We would have to be incredibly stoopid to think that there was not someone in that trap and some of the most gullible people on the planet to think that Arubans are not dumping bodies.

It could be Gary Makings. I doubt it was him cause he was wearing scuba equipment when last seen and not denim. (That's all according to Travis Makings who told me personally).

Maybe it's Buddy Larson. This would be the most logical of the missing Americans as he was not even in the water and last seen at a windsurfing  / watersports location and then was seen no more. I doubt he was wearing denim as he was looking to get in the water. We all know that the windsurfing shop had a few boats and access to others with larger boats.

It's almost certainly not Max DeVries - David Stacey Sr. was located 6 miles out and 6 miles down in the general area of Savaneta when picked up by the police with the jet -skis. So, it's probably not Max.

It could be a missing Aruban or a person from SA. It really could be. And normally I would put the odds at it actually being Natalee at about 50/50 except Kyle made his "cosmic WTF" statement. So, I put the odds at a good bit higher and as Janet initially said - the chance was most likely lost forever.

+++

Anna - I know you are still very interested in those tapes that TJ gave to Greta. He called the other day and I wasn't feeling all that well, and didn't ask him about it again and just spoke briefly with him. I understand he is doing something with Dave and he seems to be traveling to Mississippi to do a video installment with him, if I recall correctly from my conversation with him. I really don't know what's up here or I would tell you - I just didn't ask.

In the tapes he has told me that one of the informants goes by the name - Jaguar. That person passed the Layered Voice Analysis and he is one of four informants that have worked with the FBI, TJ and Harold Copus.

In those tapes - Jaguar or one of the other informants (I'm not sure which one) said the boat came from an area called Mojito and that's where they returned. I had never of that location until speaking with TJ.

TJ did say that he doesn't think Natalee was in a trap but was taken way way out to sea and just let drift away and she will not be found. I don't know what happened - that's TJ explanation.

When he calls next - I will ask him what's going on with the tapes and Greta. I'll try not to forget.

I hope everyone has a great day, and Janet - I love LOVE love your new doc - thanks for putting so much time and effort into it.. you're one of the bestest!!! 

[Tamikosmom]

Buckshot - I think you are pretty darned close!!

Anna!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   How did you know I am starving?!?!?!?

 



Hard working monkeys always need a good breakfast!


.

Unfortunately I'm sitting here with the flu, munching on saltines and sipping 7-Up. 

Anything else simply makes my stomach revolt.  But looking at that pic of the eggs and bakey made me smile and look forward to upcoming days/hours when I can eat real food again. 

I hope you are feeling better soon jen.

Hugs

Janet

[Nut44x4]

[Tamikosmom]

I also believe that Kyle sent the Dec 29 images to the FBI in somewhat real time.

There is one thing to keep in mind that could answer many, many of the questions raised here yesterday.

John Silvetti followed Aruba's lead on December 30th.  They said the cage was not case related - and he complied with that determination.

From piecing everything together - that is when and why everything from that point forward was halted by Persistence crew (including Kyle) in following through on that cage and its contents.

The one thing that has stuck in my mind to confirm both Kyle and Miller's belief in what they had found - was the first reason Silvetti gave Kyle for having Miller removed from the ship.

"After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability."

Why, if they hadn't found what they were looking for, was Tim Miller no longer necessary after they found that cage?  

Remember - Tim Miller was the person armed with the information from Dave Holloway regarding tips that led them to the ocean in the first place.



And Lifesong - absolutely NOT!!!!!  It's ALWAYS a good thing to ask questions.  Always.

Each and every person has to make up his/her own mind about information - and the only way to do that is to ask questions until a person is satisfied one way or another.

Natalee's Freebirds have always put the facts in front of the reader - and adopted the stance of:

"You Be The Judge"

That hasn't changed.

Jen ... I agree.

Janet

_____

The following words of Kyle Kingman tells me that John Silvetti was not deceived by the Arubans.  I contend he one with them.

Janet

++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle Kingman:   I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kyle Kingman: We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap.

[Anna]

Rob,

Thanks for this information.

And don't be such a stanger!

We need the moral support some days.

{{hugs}}

.

[Tamikosmom]

Also ... the following quote makes me very suspicious that a plan ...  unknown to Kyle ... may have been in the works prior to the December 30, 2007 meeting on board the Persistence ... a plan to betray Natalee Holloway and her family.

Janet

+++++

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

[Tamikosmom]

Thanks Magnolia and Anna.

The quotes were all on the SM Site or Kyle's blogs ... it was just a matter of compiling Kyle's own words in an order that told of the deception of the Persistence.

To tell the truth ... I had worked very hard to day articulating introductions to each part.  However ... DIL was a little leary when you consider there are those "out there" who would twist my words and ... claim I defamed John Silvetti.

Well ... I will be gone tomorrow.  Seven year old grandaughter is in an inter-school public speaking contest tomorrow.  I will be watching her do her thing while Papa is teacher on call (TOC) for home schooled older brother.  Mom will be attending a field trip with younger brother.  While Dad is away (pilot) ... Mom sometimes gets somewhat overwhelmed.

It's crazy!

Janet
8:25 PM PT

Great Job janet!!

And your DIL was correct in her thoughts and feelings. 

Thank jen.

I think DIL reasoning was valid but ... I had worked soooo hard putting in my two bits worth.

 

Have a good day all!

I am off.

Janet
7:35 AM PT

[Rob]

Rob,

Thanks for this information.

And don't be such a stanger!

We need the moral support some days.

{{hugs}}

.

Anna {{{hugs backatcha}} - juss logged back on for a second and then I havta get goin'...

I've juss been going thru some stuff and just haven't had the desire to post - I do still read from time to time and try to keep up. God seems to be testing me  but I'm ok.. and thanks sooo much for all the kind thoughts - you all mean so much to me. ((And don't worry - I'm fine, I really am))..

I'll try to drop by more often in the future - and I will certainly remember to as TJ when I speak to him next.

Again Monks and Monkettes - have a really good day - I'll be thinking of all of you - God Bless ya all... hang in there!!!

[jen3560]

Thanks Magnolia and Anna.

The quotes were all on the SM Site or Kyle's blogs ... it was just a matter of compiling Kyle's own words in an order that told of the deception of the Persistence.

To tell the truth ... I had worked very hard to day articulating introductions to each part.  However ... DIL was a little leary when you consider there are those "out there" who would twist my words and ... claim I defamed John Silvetti.

Well ... I will be gone tomorrow.  Seven year old grandaughter is in an inter-school public speaking contest tomorrow.  I will be watching her do her thing while Papa is teacher on call (TOC) for home schooled older brother.  Mom will be attending a field trip with younger brother.  While Dad is away (pilot) ... Mom sometimes gets somewhat overwhelmed.

It's crazy!

Janet
8:25 PM PT

Great Job janet!!

And your DIL was correct in her thoughts and feelings. 

Thank jen.

I think DIL reasoning was valid but ... I had worked soooo hard putting in my two bits worth.

 

Have a good day all!

I am off.

Janet
7:35 AM PT

   I have no doubt it was great!!

And now you know precisely what Natalee's Freebirds went thru after creating our doc regarding the cage find, only to not be able to publish it.

It's a miserable feeling, isn't it?

[Tamikosmom]

There were questions yesterday about the FBI and how/when Kyle had a channel with them.

My presumption is that channel was opened up thru Dave Holloway, possibly via Tim Miller.

A discussion between Kyle and myself on March 21 2008:

Kyle wrote:

The FBI told me they could not send a representative down to us in Aruba unless they were specifically invited to do so by the Aruban authorities. They were simply uninvited.

I wrote:

You're KIDDING me?!?!?!?!

So the FBI wanted to send someone - but no one on Aruba said "ok"?

Or was the FBI merely waiting for an invitation that never came?


Kyle wrote:

The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.
-------------

I don't know when (or with whom) this conversation with the FBI took place.  I would presume that was something Dave Holloway ascertained prior to the Persistence ever leaving for Aruba.

When it is considered that a corrupt Aruban investigation have prevented justice from prevailing since May 30, 2007 ... why was the issue of an "Aruban invitation" not taken care of in the planning stages of the Persistence undertaking?

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Thanks Magnolia and Anna.

The quotes were all on the SM Site or Kyle's blogs ... it was just a matter of compiling Kyle's own words in an order that told of the deception of the Persistence.

To tell the truth ... I had worked very hard to day articulating introductions to each part.  However ... DIL was a little leary when you consider there are those "out there" who would twist my words and ... claim I defamed John Silvetti.

Well ... I will be gone tomorrow.  Seven year old grandaughter is in an inter-school public speaking contest tomorrow.  I will be watching her do her thing while Papa is teacher on call (TOC) for home schooled older brother.  Mom will be attending a field trip with younger brother.  While Dad is away (pilot) ... Mom sometimes gets somewhat overwhelmed.

It's crazy!

Janet
8:25 PM PT

Great Job janet!!

And your DIL was correct in her thoughts and feelings. 

Thank jen.

I think DIL reasoning was valid but ... I had worked soooo hard putting in my two bits worth.

 

Have a good day all!

I am off.

Janet
7:35 AM PT

   I have no doubt it was great!!

And now you know precisely what Natalee's Freebirds went thru after creating our doc regarding the cage find, only to not be able to publish it.

It's a miserable feeling, isn't it?

[jen3560]

There were questions yesterday about the FBI and how/when Kyle had a channel with them.

My presumption is that channel was opened up thru Dave Holloway, possibly via Tim Miller.

A discussion between Kyle and myself on March 21 2008:

Kyle wrote:

The FBI told me they could not send a representative down to us in Aruba unless they were specifically invited to do so by the Aruban authorities. They were simply uninvited.

I wrote:

You're KIDDING me?!?!?!?!

So the FBI wanted to send someone - but no one on Aruba said "ok"?

Or was the FBI merely waiting for an invitation that never came?


Kyle wrote:

The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.
-------------

I don't know when (or with whom) this conversation with the FBI took place.  I would presume that was something Dave Holloway ascertained prior to the Persistence ever leaving for Aruba.

When it is considered that a corrupt Aruban investigation have prevented justice from prevailing since May 30, 2007 ... why was the issue of an "Aruban invitation" not taken care of in the planning stages of the Persistence undertaking?

Janet

Precisely!  And protocol for when/if remains were found was the VERY first question I asked Kyle when he first reached out to us prior to the Persistence arriving in Aruba.

No known plan that he was aware of at that time.

With all of the cooperation talks and warm fuzzies Kyle posted publicly about that took place between Persistence and Aruba - why was that never brought to the forefront at that time?

If it were me - there would have been a representative from the FBI on board before Persistence ever docked in Aruba.  To hell with the consequences, should that ever have become an issue.

Instead..................they brought Dateline. 

[Anna]

Maybe some had "visions" about the latitude because some of ALE are the ones who put remains or caused remains to be put in the trap in the first place.

Just saying. . . . . .

[wreck]

Good Morning Monks and Monkettes -

This is kinda in response to Lifesong's post a few pages back.

I, too, have NO idea who was in the trap. I am sure there was someone. I'm sure there were human remains and agreed with wreck over a year ago when he saw something hinky at the time. We were probably the only two at the time that thought it COULD BE Natalee. There might have been others, but we were kinda steadfast and took a heaping load of crap from some.

Who could be in the trap?

Well, it could be literally anyone.

It could be an Aruban - after-all the ocean is big and Arubans have probably been dumping other Arubans, Colombians, Venezuelans, and God only knows who else out there. When you live on an island - the ocean is a prime locale for dumping bodies. The are undoubtedly other Americans out there too. We would have to be incredibly stoopid to think that there was not someone in that trap and some of the most gullible people on the planet to think that Arubans are not dumping bodies.

It could be Gary Makings. I doubt it was him cause he was wearing scuba equipment when last seen and not denim. (That's all according to Travis Makings who told me personally).

Maybe it's Buddy Larson. This would be the most logical of the missing Americans as he was not even in the water and last seen at a windsurfing  / watersports location and then was seen no more. I doubt he was wearing denim as he was looking to get in the water. We all know that the windsurfing shop had a few boats and access to others with larger boats.

It's almost certainly not Max DeVries - David Stacey Sr. was located 6 miles out and 6 miles down in the general area of Savaneta when picked up by the police with the jet -skis. So, it's probably not Max.

It could be a missing Aruban or a person from SA. It really could be. And normally I would put the odds at it actually being Natalee at about 50/50 except Kyle made his "cosmic WTF" statement. So, I put the odds at a good bit higher and as Janet initially said - the chance was most likely lost forever.

+++

Anna - I know you are still very interested in those tapes that TJ gave to Greta. He called the other day and I wasn't feeling all that well, and didn't ask him about it again and just spoke briefly with him. I understand he is doing something with Dave and he seems to be traveling to Mississippi to do a video installment with him, if I recall correctly from my conversation with him. I really don't know what's up here or I would tell you - I just didn't ask.

In the tapes he has told me that one of the informants goes by the name - Jaguar. That person passed the Layered Voice Analysis and he is one of four informants that have worked with the FBI, TJ and Harold Copus.

In those tapes - Jaguar or one of the other informants (I'm not sure which one) said the boat came from an area called Mojito and that's where they returned. I had never of that location until speaking with TJ.

TJ did say that he doesn't think Natalee was in a trap but was taken way way out to sea and just let drift away and she will not be found. I don't know what happened - that's TJ explanation.

When he calls next - I will ask him what's going on with the tapes and Greta. I'll try not to forget.

I hope everyone has a great day, and Janet - I love LOVE love your new doc - thanks for putting so much time and effort into it.. you're one of the bestest!!! 

Yes, I did think that it was Natalee in that cage -- only at that time, I still had unwavering faith in the Persistence. I thought the FBI and the Persistence were purposely being vague because they were "setting a trap" for the perps.

[Magnolia]

The thing that has always bothered me is why did they wait from December 30 till January 7 to dive
on the site again.
If I were an American citizen looking for another American citizen and had seen the cage/trap
with wat appeared to be a skull in it, there is no way I would have let it sit there for a week
without going down and checking it out.  I would have not waited on Aruban divers.
If Edwardo was on board, fine ...dive with him or without, but check it out.
It does not make sense to just let it sit there.

The reason it was abandonded by Persistence was because of John Silvetti.  He was the only project lead aboard after he gave Tim Miller the boot, and after Tim Trahan left (for parts and reasons unknown to us).

December 30th is the date John took Aruban divers at their word - not case related, go out to deeper waters.

In no uncertain terms, he told Kyle (in the face of Kyle's objections) that there was to be no more discussion about that cage.

Jen, hope that you feel better soon.

According to Kyle, Richardson did not tell the Persistence crew to search in the  deeper water
until after the January 7th dive.  What did the crew do for the week between the December
30th dive and the January 7th dive?

Kyle Kingman:   I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

[jen3560]

Magnolia - good question.  And you're right.  Sorry, I'm a bit fuzzy brained this morning.

Janet brought forward a good post of Kyle's - Silvetti was the only one aboard on the Dec 29th dive who wasn't all excited thinking they had found what they were after.

So Silvetti's stance differed from everyone else's at the first ROV glimpse of the cage.

I don't recall what they were doing for those 8 days in between the Dec 30 personnel dive and the Jan 7 Aruba dive.  Maybe their blog could shed some light?

[jen3560]

ETA:  Just noticed the "keep" in Kyle's post you quoted Mags.  that tells me they were already in deep water after Dec 30th?  And Richardson told them to 'keep' searching there.

Magnolia - good question.  And you're right.  Sorry, I'm a bit fuzzy brained this morning.

Janet brought forward a good post of Kyle's - Silvetti was the only one aboard on the Dec 29th dive who wasn't all excited thinking they had found what they were after.

So Silvetti's stance differed from everyone else's at the first ROV glimpse of the cage.

I don't recall what they were doing for those 8 days in between the Dec 30 personnel dive and the Jan 7 Aruba dive.  Maybe their blog could shed some light?

[jen3560]

Magnolia - this is Kyle referring to right after December 30th as being when they began searching in deep water, at Silvetti's behest.  The "I hadn't slept in 48 hours" was the 30th.



Kyle Kingman:   I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water

[Tylergal]

Rob, I agree with Anna. Don't be such a stranger. 

Hi guys.  Just wanted to know how things are going today and drop by to say hello, and let you know I have not forgotten Natalee or any of you.  Janet, I was just inquiring about you recently.  Good to see you. 

I regret so much that some of our monkeys have gone off on a tangent, gathering confidential information and dispensing it on the internet.  Ah, it's a matter now for the authorities, but I did not want it to come to this as there were some really nice people there who have been sucked into the abyss.  I just so wish they would look before they leap or think before they tank.

[Magnolia]

ETA:  Just noticed the "keep" in Kyle's post you quoted Mags.  that tells me they were already in deep water after Dec 30th?  And Richardson told them to 'keep' searching there.

Magnolia - good question.  And you're right.  Sorry, I'm a bit fuzzy brained this morning.

Janet brought forward a good post of Kyle's - Silvetti was the only one aboard on the Dec 29th dive who wasn't all excited thinking they had found what they were after.

So Silvetti's stance differed from everyone else's at the first ROV glimpse of the cage.

I don't recall what they were doing for those 8 days in between the Dec 30 personnel dive and the Jan 7 Aruba dive.  Maybe their blog could shed some light?

I noticed the "keep" also.
Sometimes I wonder about Kyle's real motives.  I am not really sure when the money and future job
possibilities became formost.  How did Kyle get involved in this project?  Sometimes I think that
Kyle just writes prosey stuff and doesn't really feel in his heart what he writes.  I guess I have lost
all trust in him.