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Author Topic: Obama & Abortion, a discussion  (Read 1642 times)
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WhiskeyGirl
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« on: March 02, 2009, 07:59:03 AM »

I was in the car over the weekend and had the opportunity to catch Obama giving an interview that was played on NPR.  Not sure where it came from, I couldn't find it on the NPR site to comment.

I've never involved myself in the abortion debate.  No one can do everything, everyone can do something.  It was a thought provoking interview and made me really think about my views on abortion.

There were some comments that continue to come to mind, and while I have avoided the issue for most of my life, here are my comments.  I am curious to find out what others think as well. 
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WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 08:42:22 AM »

Obama (my paraphrase from memory) repeated several times that he (Obama) didn't want the abortion issue to be defined by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, and other conservatives.  He gave a number of reasons and examples.

I consider myself an independent.  I watch some religious programming and am not a follower of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, they do not speak for me.  To use either of these gentlemen to represent the conservative/fundamental values for a public discussion of the Christian masses would be like using Willie Horton as an example of an African/Black American during Black History Month.  Just plain wrong.

From memory, Mr. Obama also said he would not accept answers related to religious beliefs or the Bible to be included in the debate.  As an example, he used a speech by Martin Luther King.  Dr. King used language that did not include the Bible, and everyone 'got' the message.  Apples to oranges comparison for the topic at hand - abortion.

What did Dr. King say, in his own words -

Quote
“The Negro cannot win if he is willing to sacrifice the futures of his children for immediate personal comfort and safety.”

“I say today that we as Christians must press on, in the conviction that we are ‘a colony of heaven,’ called to obey God rather than man. Small in number, we must remain big in commitment. We must be too God intoxicated to be ‘astronomically intimidated.’ By our effort and example may God use us, as imperfect vessels that we are, to bring an end to such ancient evils as infanticide, abortion, racism, and oppression.”


Quote
This conclusion leads me to remind my readers that I too have a dream. It’s in my genes. How can the dream survive if we murder the children? - Dr. Alveda C. King

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=32330

I cannot speak for all Christians, I can only speak for myself.  God gave man, ten really big commandments.  Included in that list - "You shall not murder." 

The discussion about what is murder, killing, and destruction in all cases is a discussion for another board, so I'll be brief.

When does life begin?   Does it begin at birth?  Does it begin with just an egg or a sperm, separate, never to mingle?  Or, does it begin at conception?

A partial definition of 'conception' from the http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conception

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a. Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization.
b. The entity formed by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; an embryo or zygote.

A partial definition of 'life' from the same site -

Quote
a. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Can we (human and science) distinguish the entity created by sperm and egg from the vessel in which it resides?  Yes, we can.  In some instances, the planned, or unplanned separation or other disturbances may cause harm and death to the vessel. 

Do human beings invest time and resources to prevent, repair, or maintain the 'life' or 'physical entity' when something goes wrong?  Yes, we do.  From memory, this in my experience has included bed rest, maternal monitors, chemical treatments, in-vitro surgery, external surger, all to protect that special entity within the out vessel.  The greater culture has invested a lot of resources to help the union of sperm and egg, and to prevent that same union.

Are there special considerations for the vessel when it contains the new fusion entity within?  Yes, there are.  From the perspective on a non-lawyer, I seem to recall that it is illegal in some places to discriminate against a pregnant person with regards to housing, employment, and many other things.  Anyone, jump right in a correct me please. 

Has science been able to pinpoint a time when 'life' begins for legal purposes?  A solution to this age old problem?  I haven't found a single one, other than conception. 

In our society, individuals may continue to struggle to obey the laws of God, or their inner convictions about when life begins, and when removing a unique individual is the ending of a life, murder, or killing.

my opinions
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All my posts are just my humble opinions.  Please take with a grain of salt.  Smile

It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
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WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 08:56:24 AM »

I have a few other comments in mind, and will post them later.  Everyone, please jump in.

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oldiebutgoodie
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 02:42:53 AM »

I am a political independent. I enjoy listening to George Will AND sometimes I enjoy listening to liberal pundits. However, when I want to listen to the news, I just want facts. I find Fox News to be distorted and at times, downright dishonest. I do know other cable and broadcast networks are selective in what news gets reported and how it gets reported so no one is pure in the bias department but Fox is just exceedingly dishonest. I can't respect that.

I could never be a radical partisan of any political stripe because that would mean assigning all my independent thought processes over to the mouthpieces of that particular political stripe and to their talking points. Somebody else's talking points does not rule my world. I think for myself.

I piss off both my liberal friends and my conservative friends. I am a staunch supporter of ALL the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment but that does not mean I turn a deaf ear to law enforcement and the voices of our heroes who fight a very real war on the streets of America's cities. They don't want criminals to have unfettered access to assault weapons and especially deadly bullets that pierce police vests. I can see their point. But, that doesn't make me an enemy of the NRA. The NRA are idiots for not following the movie industry's example in taking the lead in policing their own industry rather than have Big Brother do it for them. It will come to that. Eventually.

So my liberal friends get angry with me for supporting the Second Amendment and my conservative friends think I don't support it enough and they don't care for my opinion that the NRA is just one big opportunistic political ho.

I really drive both sides nuts with my stand on abortion. When I was of "child-bearing years" and even at one point when I thought I was pregnant (I was about 20, cerca 1970), I knew I could never EVER have an abortion for convenience sake. So... speaking on a strictly personal individual level, I am anti-abortion. I could never do that (unless I was saving my own life).

One of the saddest encounters I had regarding the abortion issue was at a Women's Health Clinic in downtown Los Angeles where I'd gone for basic female health care. I was planning on getting married and we'd hoped to start a family. As I waited in line to check in for my exam, the lady in front of me in line hollered in a bitchy manner at the girl behind the counter, "Can we hurry this up? I have an appointment to get my hair done this afternoon and I want to get this abortion over with."

It hit me hard. There was a life growing inside her that she was dismissing as casually as if she was flicking off a booger.

Still, I am made exceedingly uncomfortable by the notion of the government crawling up inside of women's vaginas and legally mandating what's allowed to go on there.

I am made exceedingly uncomfortable by anyone attempting to impose their religious view on others and that would include bringing pressure to bear on legislators to pass anti-abortion laws because that meets their extremist religious view of things. They need to keep their religious opinions out of women's vaginas and other body parts. They are NOT the boss of my body or anyone else's body.

I CHOOSE to be anti-abortion AND pro-choice and I don't give a rat's patootie if that pisses off every friend I have. That's just how I feel.
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WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 04:26:44 AM »

Obama commented, from memory, that the unborn are "potential life", not life itself - my paraphrase.  There is no guarantee of life to any unborn child, sometimes nature ends a pregnancy before birth.

I remember things like the 'one child' policy of China, and the no birth control policies of Romania.

I do believe that medical people should have their moral and ethical values regarding abortion and the termination of life respected.

Respect for life can be a slippery slope.  When does the protection begin?  When does it end?  Is a child any less precious or valuable because it is unborn, two, or ninety?  Who cries for yesterdays babies? 

Obama spent his volunteer day at a shelter for young people and pointed out to the media that their potential was being wasted.  Did someone make a decision about the value of their lives and potential?  How much 'potential' is being wasted when children, born and unborn are tossed aside?

IMO - Some will always look to abortion as a solution.  Why not make life a viable solution?  Don't tomorrows children have the same value as yesterdays?

jmho
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It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
they'll end up in your family anyway...
LouiseVargas
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2009, 11:54:06 PM »

I am pro choice. However when I got pregnant at 17 in high school in 1961, I went to a Salvation Army home for unwed mothers and had the baby. A social worker from a Jewish adoption agency came to visit me weekly and I gave them my baby. I signed papers. I lived in that home for five months and went through labor alone. He was adopted by a fabulously wealthy family and he became an MD, PhD. He could never have achieved those goals had I kept him. He found me in 1996. I am ever so grateful I made the choice to NOT have an abortion. Five years later I was married and gave birth to my daughter IN WEDLOCK.
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Tater
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2009, 07:45:23 AM »

Pro-life believer here...

Jeremiah 1:5

 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


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Proverbs 3:5
  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
         and lean not unto thine own understanding.
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