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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #805 3/6/09 - 3/9/09  (Read 148636 times)
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nimrod
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« Reply #880 on: March 09, 2009, 04:54:11 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.
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Kermit
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« Reply #881 on: March 09, 2009, 04:58:08 PM »

To RED from KYLE:


Tim Miller wasn't in a position to offer anyone access. He was/is not the project manager. Tim Trahan and John Silvetti make those decisions. Here's an apology: I'm sorry you were mislead by Tim Miller which obviously left you highly embittered. This had nothing to do with us. You are in no position to cast judgment or insult the search team. How dare you say that we have no clue. Red, frankly your arrogance astounds me.

--
Kyle
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jen3560
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« Reply #882 on: March 09, 2009, 04:58:53 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

He was operating the ROV. 

The inference I got from his "speeding away" was that not one person from the Aruban boat set foot on, or spoke with anyone onboard the Persistence.

That by the time Kyle got back topside after finishing with the ROV recording that dive, their boat was already taking off.
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #883 on: March 09, 2009, 04:59:12 PM »

BUMP!!

This flies in the face of information we were given by someone here (I forget who?) who told us Jossy said Eduardo was on board the Persistence for the whole time.

FYI - I do remember some folks were asking about Eduardo, and if he was present for the Jan 7th dive.

From the same March 21 post, Kyle said this:

"For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan."


Jen ... it was Jossy who claimed that Eduardo was not on the January 7, 2008 dive but ... had been on the Persistence the entire time.

When it is considered that Jossy Mansur and John Silvetti are one in the contention that there was nothing case related in the trap/cage ... my thought process turns to questioning what was the actual purpose of Eduardo Mansur's continuing presence on board the Persistence.  Could the “powers that be” have taken advantage of the trusted relationship that existed between Jossy Mansur and the family of Natalee Holloway?   Could the “powers that be” had assumed the motives of Eduard Mansur would not be questioned  or undermine?

One member of the crew, who held a professional position on board the Persistence, had his suspicions.  His name was Kyle Kingman.

IMO

Janet
________

JOSSY MANSUR

Jossy Mansur:
  No, my son was not on the dive team, but he was on board the ship every day. What he told me is that the cage is of an industrial type and not similar to the one that went missing the same morning Natalee disappeared. The ship did map a vast area and was able to pinpoint close to 100 items of interest on the bottom of the ocean along the coast. Just when they were about to examine them, they ran out of money because it is an expensive venture.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman
:  We're close to finding the Dirty Hand and a major leak plaguing the investigation. I believe they're linked. I'm assuming Caps isn't deep inside ALE, but do we know that he isn't? We need to figure out who Cap's source is and what he does. Can we confirm Destiny's source is a Dairio reporter? If so, do we know who this would be? Could it be Eduardo Mansur???
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Kermit
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« Reply #884 on: March 09, 2009, 05:01:34 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

I do not recall Kyle stating what his location on the ship was during the Aruba only divers on Jan. 7th.
I recall Kyle stating they did not know the ROV unit was filming them.
I recall Kyle stating he had the screenshots from that dive on his computer.

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jen3560
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« Reply #885 on: March 09, 2009, 05:02:25 PM »

Janet,

Since that was reported to us via HotShot (thanks Blue Moon!), I have to question its validity.  Did that info really come from Jossy?

I still don't know what to think about Jossy and Eduardo's position with all of this. 
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #886 on: March 09, 2009, 05:02:25 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

He was operating the ROV. 

The inference I got from his "speeding away" was that not one person from the Aruban boat set foot on, or spoke with anyone onboard the Persistence.

That by the time Kyle got back topside after finishing with the ROV recording that dive, their boat was already taking off.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:
I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Kermit
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« Reply #887 on: March 09, 2009, 05:03:12 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

IF the trap is of no importance, then why did he, Tim Trahan, Louis Schaerfer try to sell the footage?

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wreck
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« Reply #888 on: March 09, 2009, 05:08:51 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

IF the trap is of no importance, then why did he, Tim Trahan, Louis Schaerfer try to sell the footage?


That is what sticks with me as well!
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Magnolia
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« Reply #889 on: March 09, 2009, 05:09:04 PM »

Kyle said: Can we confirm Destiny's source is a Dairio reporter? If so, do we know who this would be? Could it be Eduardo Mansur???


Destiny asks OE (Kyle) if the pictures are of the same pond:
“OE, Did you see the 3 new photos we got today?   Is it the same pond you scanned?....please let me know....it's driving me crazy.... TIA...Destiny”

OE (Kyle) confirms that it is:
“Yes, it is certainly the same pond that we searched in February.”


Jossy Mansur's employee at his newspaper Helen is talking to Destiny
Helen Werleman


  La Cabana Beach & Racquet Club
Helen Werleman & Manager of the Year,
http://bb.visitaruba.com/f61/maureen-martinez-helen-werleman-walter-kelly-recognized-la-cabana-10976/

Wasn't Werleman the name of Caps witness?  Jossy said it on Greta.
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The will of heaven be done in this and all things.
Tamikosmom
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« Reply #890 on: March 09, 2009, 05:10:27 PM »

Janet,

Since that was reported to us via HotShot (thanks Blue Moon!), I have to question its validity.  Did that info really come from Jossy?

I still don't know what to think about Jossy and Eduardo's position with all of this. 

Jen

I am inclined to believe that Eduardo must have spent a lot of time on board the Persistence when you consider Kyle Kingman's words.  Why would he include Eduardo in the following quote if he had not been a mainstay along with Tim Miller and Tim Trahan.

Hotshot's email from Jossy and ... Kyle Kingman's words in his post to the Natalee's Freebirds' site appear to confirm/support each other.

IMO

Janet

+++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.


JOSSY MANSUR

Jossy Mansur:
  No, my son was not on the dive team, but he was on board the ship every day. What he told me is that the cage is of an industrial type and not similar to the one that went missing the same morning Natalee disappeared. The ship did map a vast area and was able to pinpoint close to 100 items of interest on the bottom of the ocean along the coast. Just when they were about to examine them, they ran out of money because it is an expensive venture.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman
:  We're close to finding the Dirty Hand and a major leak plaguing the investigation. I believe they're linked. I'm assuming Caps isn't deep inside ALE, but do we know that he isn't? We need to figure out who Cap's source is and what he does. Can we confirm Destiny's source is a Dairio reporter? If so, do we know who this would be? Could it be Eduardo Mansur???
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
San
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« Reply #891 on: March 09, 2009, 05:10:36 PM »

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jen3560
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« Reply #892 on: March 09, 2009, 05:10:57 PM »

Nimrod,

I want to ask you to think about something.  I know you missed a lot due to the horrible things you and yours were going thru, and I know how hard it is to try and catch up after so long a time away.

I know you don't believe what Kyle told us.

Here's the question I'd like you to entertain.

Why would Kyle lie to us, when he knew that a member of Natalee's family was with us?  That this family member would be reading/seeing everything he was about to share with us?

We all knew he wasn't just some anonymous internet poster with a "story" to tell.

This information was/is of such importance to her family, he HAD to know they would do something about it?

He had to know that his recounting of the facts could be/would be checked with others, reported to our law enforcement, etc.

He was very familiar with our blog (remember from emails long before he joined us about our disposal timeline/location for May 30th) - so he knew what we stood for, and what we could do with this information.

So - knowing those things, why would he lie directly to Natalee's family, and to us?
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nimrod
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« Reply #893 on: March 09, 2009, 05:12:31 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

I do not recall Kyle stating what his location on the ship was during the Aruba only divers on Jan. 7th.
I recall Kyle stating they did not know the ROV unit was filming them.
I recall Kyle stating he had the screenshots from that dive on his computer.



Kerm, I definitely recall Kyle saying that and I will look for it.....somewhere?
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #894 on: March 09, 2009, 05:14:26 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

IF the trap is of no importance, then why did he, Tim Trahan, Louis Schaerfer try to sell the footage?


Exactly!!

Janet
 
++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman 06/16/2008:
On the other hand, those differences has also caused a rift between Tim Trahan/Louis and myself with John (although John and I remain close friends and colleagues). The result is Tim, Louis and I are moving forward and John [Silvetti] is left out of the loop. Tim Trahan has allied himself with me. What John's doing in Aruba, I am not entirely sure now although I know it's got to do with the pond search and some business relations. loathe the thought of going around John with the trap info but that's Tim's decision, not mine. It was Tim who wanted me involved in where we are going now.
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
jen3560
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« Reply #895 on: March 09, 2009, 05:14:43 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

I do not recall Kyle stating what his location on the ship was during the Aruba only divers on Jan. 7th.
I recall Kyle stating they did not know the ROV unit was filming them.
I recall Kyle stating he had the screenshots from that dive on his computer.



Kerm, I definitely recall Kyle saying that and I will look for it.....somewhere?

Janet re-posted it above:

Tamikosmom link=topic=4633.msg711337#msg711337 date=1236632545]

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:

I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.
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Kermit
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« Reply #896 on: March 09, 2009, 05:21:49 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

I do not recall Kyle stating what his location on the ship was during the Aruba only divers on Jan. 7th.
I recall Kyle stating they did not know the ROV unit was filming them.
I recall Kyle stating he had the screenshots from that dive on his computer.



Kerm, I definitely recall Kyle saying that and I will look for it.....somewhere?


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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #897 on: March 09, 2009, 05:22:47 PM »

And another thing about Kyle: If finding out about what was in the cage was so important to him, why was he below deck on the Persistence all the time the Aruban divers were retrieving it's contents and was "speeding"  away, as he so dramatically said, when he finally came topsides? All boats "speed away" when they are heading back home. I've always been curious about that.

I do not recall Kyle stating what his location on the ship was during the Aruba only divers on Jan. 7th.
I recall Kyle stating they did not know the ROV unit was filming them.
I recall Kyle stating he had the screenshots from that dive on his computer.



Kerm, I definitely recall Kyle saying that and I will look for it.....somewhere?

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast.  John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.  (March 11, 2008)

Kyle Kingman: They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th. (March 11, 2008)
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Kermit
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« Reply #898 on: March 09, 2009, 05:25:24 PM »

Kyle said: I trust Jossy and Eduardo, but only because their agenda overlaps ours and Eduardo was a wonderful help. Although it seems complicated why, they do want the case solved.

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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #899 on: March 09, 2009, 05:28:44 PM »

Kyle said: I trust Jossy and Eduardo, but only because their agenda overlaps ours and Eduardo was a wonderful help. Although it seems complicated why, they do want the case solved.



 
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
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