Haleigh Cummings #4 3/04/09 - 3/08/09

[Wyks]

For Wyks, IM, Luckyday  - and anyone else who thinks that dissecting words is a useful tool, here are a couple of links.

If psych research, dissecting words and calls etc are not credible subjects in some others' opinions, I'd appreciate it if you just skipped it - and not read it - rather than tell me again that it's "bull" or "trash talk." ThanxK?

"Applications of Psychological Research on Deception" (RE Police Statements)

Thre are also forensic psych and crime psych links etc. - same page.

LINK
http://deception.crimepsychblog.com/?p=106

(below) This is the same article by Susan H. Adams that I posted from the CI Centre, but here you don't have all the annoying scrolling with this format in this one from the FBI publication. (Easier to navigate than the other one)

It begins with Susan Smith and her words. This is a must read if you're of the "past tense" school of thought.... and some others. Again, not "proof" -- just a tool.... and a way to use norms.

LINK
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/oct964.txt

This is one smart lady, I enjoy reading her work and have learned a lot!  Thanks Rana! 

[oldiebutgoodie]

LilyMarie - yes it is on Youtube, let me get it for you 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FziScjyf4Ic&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/FziScjyf4Ic&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

I never get tired of watching this....now we just need to put Jose Baez next to him and we will have a piggy romp to watch.

Back in the old 60 Minutes days of ambush journalism, I used to think Geraldo was pretty cool and later, when he had his own show, I respected him for bashing that Nazi who threatened him. Geraldo isn't afraid to mix it up with his fists and he wasn't taking crap off of any Nazi.

Then I read an excerpt from Bette Midler's autobiography. At least, I'm pretty sure it was her (it's been a long time). She described an unpleasant encounter with Geraldo in a bathroom (the details don't need to be written here but it's exactly what you're thinking) and after that, Geraldo fell on my Respect Scale. If it wasn't Bette Midler, it was some other female celebrity.

Then came the war in Iraq and Geraldo, the embedded journalist, got down in the sand and drew a freakin' map to their position!!!! WTF was he thinking? No wonder the DoD threw him out.

And there was his oh-so-brave report live from Afghanistan as they were under enemy sniper fire and Geraldo was yelling back at the enemy and he turned to someone and said something like, "Who's got a gun? Give me a gun." as if he's going to shoot down all comers. Geraldo the hero. Hmm... you don't suppose they just might have had a military escort, do you? Or did Geraldo have special leave to walk right up to Osama's Tora Bora cave and yell, "Helloooo... anybody home?"

I agree with some of his points on some subjects but there's too much history that I can't ignore so now if he reports something, I want to hear it confirmed before I'll believe it.

[rana]

"Yes, I do have a message for whoever has taken Haleigh. I would ask that you please, please bring my daughter home. She's not yours, not your property. She's not something that you just take and say, 'It's mine.' This is my daughter, this is blood and I would like to have my daughter back please. Please bring my daughter home," he pleaded.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:X46CKk9Ww5cJ:www.wftv.com/news/18752473/detail.html+Ronald+cummings+shes+not+property&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Thanks for that link, Heart.  This is one of Ron's pleas.  The one I heard was on tv, and sounded similiar to this one, yet different. 

Thank you, Heart. Yes, this is very, very similar, but not the same one/s I heard.

[rana]

This is hearbreaking and I hope it's not so. I think Ron knows Haleigh is deceased. Like anyone I can be wrong and hope I am here. (I was stuck on Natalee Holloway alive when she first went missing)

Ron has referred to Haleigh in the past tense.  "I'd give my life for my child's life back" (not my CHILD BACK) (day one)

And Misty did as well; "I loved her like she was my own")

Also he seems to have appeared to move on - or at best, he's thinking only of himself. "No one will leave me alone to do what I want to do. There's always a camera in my face"

IMO, shades of Casey Anthony..... "Everything has been taken from me." Why is that, Casey?

His pleas for Haleigh sound like they are an after-thought and being recited.... in my opinion.

In some initial interviews, IIRC, there are few and far between (if any) pleas made for Haleigh's return; Then the regular pleas came later. Some of the initial interviews were laden with where he was (at work or some version of those words - at work - making a living... not home... - doing his best at work - not home from work - just got home from work - right after I got home from work IOW.. NOT there) and she was asleep.... in different places.... before she got up to do.... different things. (per their own words in interview clips) IOW, where he was seemed his focus in the statements.

Head gear in place.

[islandmonkey]

This is hearbreaking and I hope it's not so. I think Ron knows Haleigh is deceased. Like anyone I can be wrong and hope I am here. (I was stuck on Natalee Holloway alive when she first went missing)

Ron has referred to Haleigh in the past tense.  "I'd give my life for my child's life back" (not my CHILD BACK) (day one)

And Misty did as well; "I loved her like she was my own")

Also he seems to have appeared to move on - or at best, he's thinking only of himself. "No one will leave me alone to do what I want to do. There's always a camera in my face"

IMO, shades of Casey Anthony..... "Everything has been taken from me." Why is that, Casey?

His pleas for Haleigh sound like they are an after-thought and being recited.... in my opinion.

In some initial interviews, IIRC, there are few and far between (if any) pleas made for Haleigh's return; Then the regular pleas came later. Some of the initial interviews were laden with where he was (at work or some version of those words - at work - making a living... not home... - doing his best at work - not home from work - just got home from work - right after I got home from work IOW.. NOT there) and she was asleep.... in different places.... before she got up to do.... different things. (per their own words in interview clips) IOW, where he was seemed his focus in the statements.

Head gear in place.

No nanners from me, you know how I feel........but, just to add to your "past tense" issue, I've copy/pasted all the FBI profilers info and one is about using the past tense, they are below.



1) BROOKS: I want to go out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport." Pat, there`s so many different scenarios we`re looking at. What are some of the possible scenarios that may have happened here?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Mike, I think the most important thing is the person had a familiarity with that house. This wasn`t somebody just came in off the street, a trucker going by, seeing a little girl out in the yard and grabbing her. This is somebody who obviously knew that the father was not going to be there, would be able to know what the set-up of the house is like, somebody who`d be willing to open the door, prop it open, somehow get in the house, turn a light on.

This is somebody who would have to be extremely familiar with the house, or it has to be somebody from within the house. So at least the advantage is the police will have a small group of suspects to work with, either somebody was has had -- in the house, somebody who -- a relative, somebody who has had contact, somebody who worked in the house, somebody who was a neighbor. It has to be something -- a very small circle of people that they`re looking at.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2) Clint Van Zandt
Jodi,

I fully believe that the investigators are continuing to look at the father and the teenager.

Best,

CVZ

3) Clint Van Zandt
mlee,

Good questions, especially concerning both Misty's potential involvement and the background of the cousin. As you know, many people troll the internet looking for either friends or victims, again many times by the use of false personal information and photographs that do not present them as they look today. Should the differences you indicate in "Joe's" photograph be so evident, you, and investigators, must wonder what he is up to. As you say, "Why would he want to trick younger people to his site?"...

Be Safe,

CVZ

4) Clint Van Zandt
Ocean,

You speak the truth that few want to hear. As you suggest, Haleigh is only the tip of the iceberg of abused individuals, and, unfortunately, abused individuals can grow up to be abusers themselves. When you look to first parents, and then grandparents without finding someone fit to raise the child, you are left with the State which many times places such a child in a home where they can still become a victim. Life can truly be hell for many, to include the most innocent of us all.

Be Safe!

CVZ

5) Clint Van Zandt
Diane,

The father was very educated on how he was allowd to ue physical punish on his daughter per the Fla Dept of Soc Svs. His own form of "I got you" to the State.

Best,

CVZ

6) Clint Van Zandt
Lynn,

You are right, I believe, in that the key to Haleigh's disappearance rests with Misty and Ronald. They, are some one they know, will ultimately be fould responsible for whatever happened to the little girl, a story that is repeated far too often in this country...

Thanks for your comments!

CVZ

7) Clint Van Zandt
Kimm,

And Misty, the current girlfriend of the father, is but one of a string of 17 year old girlfriends he's allegedly had... Social Services really has its hands full in so many areas.

CVZ

Clint Van Zandt
MomOf3,

From a dad of 3, I also find the whole story fishy. While not appearing to be the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, Misty, as you suggest, appears to have delayed calling 911 for reasons yet explained. We hear of drug usage by both and could assume that she had to hide the drugs before calling the cops...

For the father not to know his daughter's birthday is just unbelieveable and could speak volumes about his possible relationship with his daughter. Where is the test of truth by fire when we need it?

Best,

CVZ

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You have to listen carefully Joe Navarro, but she said, I loved that little girl like she was my own. Do we make anything of the past tense? Or is that just a figure of speech?

JOE NAVARRO, FORMER FBI AGENT AND PROFILER: No, we do make something of that past tense. And we shouldn`t let that slip by.In fact, we had a case here in Tampa, Florida, not that far about seven years ago where the same thing happened. The mother had actually taken the baby, put it in a garbage bag, and put it in a dumpster.

But I`ve got to tell you, Jane --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say, before we go any further, --

NAVARRO: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- we don`t have any idea that that`s the same thing. I mean, this woman hasn`t been charged with anything, she`s not considered a suspect. And she may very well have simply been asleep when this child was abducted in the same room with her. But go ahead, finish your thought.

NAVARRO: Well, that may be so, but we still have to pay attention to that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, sure.

NAVARRO: The grandfather said something very significant. In essence, he was saying, this case does not pass the stink test.

He`s been to the house, he knows the family, he knows the situation, he knows how they sleep, he knows what noises are made when you walk in, he knows how the doors work, he knows everything about that. And in his own mind he`s saying, this does not pass the stink test.

9) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Let me ask you this question, Joe Navarro. We also hear that they originally thought little Haleigh was wearing a pink shirt and now we`re hearing she was not wearing a pink shirt. They have found the pink shirt they thought she was wearing.

Does that dovetail with the idea that perhaps somebody wasn`t there watching the kids, because if you were there you would know exactly what the child was wearing when the child went to sleep?

JOE NAVARRO, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, you know, that`s a good question. And a lot of times parents will because they`re nervous, the tension and so forth may not remember exactly what they were wearing.

But, you know, I go back to that interview you did a few days ago of the grandfather who said -- basically, he said, you know, this doesn`t pass the stink test. There`s so many things that are weird here.

Why are we getting information that, you know, that doesn`t match up? There were -- everybody seemed to have been in that room, and yet somehow this child was magically abducted, and nobody heard it. The doors were locked. Nobody seems to know the complete story. There are so many things here that are irregular which really makes you wonder, what is the true story? Why is it constantly being changed?

And why is it being parsed out? It seems like it`s being parsed out on a daily basis. Usually, when you get a complete and truthful story, it all comes out together at once. You don`t get it in these small packets.

10) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Jordan, you`re the criminal profiler, does that make sense?

JORDAN: I`m not going to at all rule out the idea of an abduction, but taking a sleeping child from the same bed as her caregiver if indeed Misty was sleeping in the same bed with little Haleigh --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the story has changed a number of times.

JORDAN: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now we hear that she was in sort of a blow-up bed four feet away in the same room.

JORDAN: Wow, and the more the story changes, the less credibility the last witness has. That is -- it just doesn`t happen. I mean, that the closest thing we`ve ever had is the Elizabeth Smart case where Elizabeth was taken from the same bedroom with her sister.

But her sister was 9 years old, and she wasn`t a caregiver. That is so high-risk. It`s virtually unknown







Sorry, I think I screwed up the number~I also didn't include the questions to CVZ's answers because they were quite inflammatory, or at least most of them were.

[Wyks]

It's frustrating because not only is it possible that Haleigh was abducted .. but it's also possible that Ron/Misty either knows what happened and is lying, or one/both had a part in whatever happened.  I go back and forth on these possibilities. 

And then we have LE being very tight-lipped and not giving up whatever they may know or suspect.  One thing is for sure, if they did not suspect something about Ron/Misty and/or the family members, they would have been cleared ASAP, and LE would have moved on to the next possibilities. 

Am thinking because they haven't been cleared yet, after an entire month, this speaks volumes, and a very good reason for us to continue looking at whatever clues we can ferret out. 

[Dolce]

I think that you are over thinking this Dolce . Talking about some idiot perv that saw a chance. the Satuma bunch will nevermake an episode of CSI

I take it you are not one that likes those in Satuma.  If it was a crime of possibility, then quite possibly a train came through as they often do.  Just throwing things out there for discussion, just as I am sure you are doing.

[Dolce]

If it is medication or medical equipment, bio mom,aunts,uncles and grand,great grand parents would all know

Teachers, school nurses, father, ex-girlfriends of father, current girlfriends of father, ex-boyfriends of mother, current boyfriends of mother, any family member with 2 ears and a telephone, neighbors who they visit with frequently, a person watching the house and the family..........anyone observant.....

I did not put father and gf because she lived with him, I was just thinking of other who would know other then whom she resided with. sorry...

I was not singling them out, I was adding to your list as you had requested.
(There are a lot of "hot" people on this thread)

[Dolce]

Ron could not hurt a flea  If he Tried he would get his punk-ass wannabe ass kicked Big-time

Alagary may I ask where your hostility comes from towards the members of Haleighs family?

[islandmonkey]

It's frustrating because not only is it possible that Haleigh was abducted .. but it's also possible that Ron/Misty either knows what happened and is lying, or one/both had a part in whatever happened.  I go back and forth on these possibilities. 

And then we have LE being very tight-lipped and not giving up whatever they may know or suspect.  One thing is for sure, if they did not suspect something about Ron/Misty and/or the family members, they would have been cleared ASAP, and LE would have moved on to the next possibilities. 

Am thinking because they haven't been cleared yet, after an entire month, this speaks volumes, and a very good reason for us to continue looking at whatever clues we can ferret out. 

Very well put Wkys~even the most seemingly insignificant clue could be the one that leads LE to Haleigh. I can't remember who stated this about 2 weeks in, but they said the LE was running a dual investigation due to this very fact.

[Wyks]

This is hearbreaking and I hope it's not so. I think Ron knows Haleigh is deceased. Like anyone I can be wrong and hope I am here. (I was stuck on Natalee Holloway alive when she first went missing)

Ron has referred to Haleigh in the past tense.  "I'd give my life for my child's life back" (not my CHILD BACK) (day one)

And Misty did as well; "I loved her like she was my own")

Also he seems to have appeared to move on - or at best, he's thinking only of himself. "No one will leave me alone to do what I want to do. There's always a camera in my face"

IMO, shades of Casey Anthony..... "Everything has been taken from me." Why is that, Casey?

His pleas for Haleigh sound like they are an after-thought and being recited.... in my opinion.

In some initial interviews, IIRC, there are few and far between (if any) pleas made for Haleigh's return; Then the regular pleas came later. Some of the initial interviews were laden with where he was (at work or some version of those words - at work - making a living... not home... - doing his best at work - not home from work - just got home from work - right after I got home from work IOW.. NOT there) and she was asleep.... in different places.... before she got up to do.... different things. (per their own words in interview clips) IOW, where he was seemed his focus in the statements.

Head gear in place.

Yep!  And add to this, the timing of getting the tatoo could have been 'in honor' of Haleigh... or it may have been 'in memory of' Haleigh.  Only time will tell which it was.  IMO

[Dolce]

"Yes, I do have a message for whoever has taken Haleigh. I would ask that you please, please bring my daughter home. She's not yours, not your property. She's not something that you just take and say, 'It's mine.' This is my daughter, this is blood and I would like to have my daughter back please. Please bring my daughter home," he pleaded.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:X46CKk9Ww5cJ:www.wftv.com/news/18752473/detail.html+Ronald+cummings+shes+not+property&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

That is quite a change from his first rants.  Very interesting that he goes at it from a posession perspective....

[alagary]

I think that you are over thinking this Dolce . Talking about some idiot perv that saw a chance. the Satuma bunch will nevermake an episode of CSI

I take it you are not one that likes those in Satuma.  If it was a crime of possibility, then quite possibly a train came through as they often do.  Just throwing things out there for discussion, just as I am sure you are doing.

You get it Dolce. thats really all I am doing ,putting out questions and trying to get folks thinking .
  What about the super door lock ?
  What is the item missing ?
 

[Dolce]

Back in the old 60 Minutes days of ambush journalism, I used to think Geraldo was pretty cool and later, when he had his own show, I respected him for bashing that Nazi who threatened him. Geraldo isn't afraid to mix it up with his fists and he wasn't taking crap off of any Nazi.

Then I read an excerpt from Bette Midler's autobiography. At least, I'm pretty sure it was her (it's been a long time). She described an unpleasant encounter with Geraldo in a bathroom (the details don't need to be written here but it's exactly what you're thinking) and after that, Geraldo fell on my Respect Scale. If it wasn't Bette Midler, it was some other female celebrity.

Then came the war in Iraq and Geraldo, the embedded journalist, got down in the sand and drew a freakin' map to their position!!!! WTF was he thinking? No wonder the DoD threw him out.

And there was his oh-so-brave report live from Afghanistan as they were under enemy sniper fire and Geraldo was yelling back at the enemy and he turned to someone and said something like, "Who's got a gun? Give me a gun." as if he's going to shoot down all comers. Geraldo the hero. Hmm... you don't suppose they just might have had a military escort, do you? Or did Geraldo have special leave to walk right up to Osama's Tora Bora cave and yell, "Helloooo... anybody home?"

I agree with some of his points on some subjects but there's too much history that I can't ignore so now if he reports something, I want to hear it confirmed before I'll believe it.

So what you are saying is that the phrase "Older and wiser" does not apply to him?

[islandmonkey]

"Yes, I do have a message for whoever has taken Haleigh. I would ask that you please, please bring my daughter home. She's not yours, not your property. She's not something that you just take and say, 'It's mine.' This is my daughter, this is blood and I would like to have my daughter back please. Please bring my daughter home," he pleaded.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:X46CKk9Ww5cJ:www.wftv.com/news/18752473/detail.html+Ronald+cummings+shes+not+property&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

That is quite a change from his first rants.  Very interesting that he goes at it from a posession perspective....

Yes it is~and the first words after "I just got home from work", were my child was STOLEN..........that is an odd choice of words to me, as is the line I highlighted in red above.

[Jerseygirl345]

Has anyone seen this????  Kinda interesting. Or Not.

http://www.examiner.com/x-1168-Crime-Examiner~y2009m3d7-Video--Woman-dreams-Haleigh-Cummings-is-in-Adison-Missouri

I think it's interesting Luckyday.

(For the Dial up folks:)

(About the video) This is a link to a video about woman (looks 20-ish) who said that she dreamed that Haleigh was found in “Adison,” Missouri.  There is no place in Missouri called Adison, but there is a town called Madison.

She said that she had had dreams that turned out to be true in the past FWIW, but she doesn't call herself "gifted." She's not a "famous" psychic - not that I know of. She seems very sincere, but there are many who dream about Haleigh - but how many dreams are dreamed by people who've had experiences of their dreams "coming true" more thatn once or twice

She said that she did call the tip line b/c the dream was so vivid and disturbing and she was very upset that the Haleigh of her "dream" was deceased and found in a field with a note. (finish - about the video) 
_______________________________________________________

Something about this girl, young woman in the video, seems familiar to me, but I cant recall exactly. She sort of looks like one girl who was on "Kid Psychics" and this girl (from the kid show) was quite amazing and seemed gifted and legit; but that was a couple of years ago and I can't memmer (TM George Lopez - heh) her name.

From a psych perspective, I was intrigued. I'm not great with maps like some here are (ask Fatcatlurker about the infamous "figure man" fiasco of a few nights ago when folks were trying to (or "tryna" as the kids say) trying to desperately help me work the zoom feature on Google maps. *snort*

Anyway, there is an "Addison" Florida. As for the Missouri.. I don't know. Our minds can play tricks on us in dreams, and my SWAG estimate (SWAG = Scientific Wild A$$ Guess)  (Sorry, little levity there) but "Swagging" it -- Missouri could maybe be an alternate, related sounding word. I don't know... like "Missouri" "misery" or that could be a big stretch of big fat nothing.

FWIW, thee's an Addison Fl near Fort Lauderdale. There are Addison Apts in "Brandon" Fl near Tampa. Before I get side tracked and on a wild goose chase ('fraid that ship has sailed) I wish I knew the girl's last name and if she were the same girl in that kid show b/c that girl was... wow.....

There are some long standing legit psychics who've helped solve some cases, but I can't think of any names right now. Not saying this girl is not legit. I don't know -- and in her defense she didn't claim that she is "psychic."

hey rana

I did some map searching  a street name  Madison Ave in Satsuma - The street has a field surrounding the area south of  Lake Myra off of highway 17 .. i

[Dolce]

Very well put Wkys~even the most seemingly insignificant clue could be the one that leads LE to Haleigh. I can't remember who stated this about 2 weeks in, but they said the LE was running a dual investigation due to this very fact.

Same thing that CCSO is doing in the search for Adji.  Looking at the most simplest of explanations and possibilities and having a parallel search of the more complex.  Unfortunately when you are left with nothing to go on you start with nothing, work with nothing, until you have a bit of something and hope it turns into the solution.....ugh I am so glad I do design and not crime.

[Dolce]

"Yes, I do have a message for whoever has taken Haleigh. I would ask that you please, please bring my daughter home. She's not yours, not your property. She's not something that you just take and say, 'It's mine.' This is my daughter, this is blood and I would like to have my daughter back please. Please bring my daughter home," he pleaded.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:X46CKk9Ww5cJ:www.wftv.com/news/18752473/detail.html+Ronald+cummings+shes+not+property&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

That is quite a change from his first rants.  Very interesting that he goes at it from a posession perspective....

Yes it is~and the first words after "I just got home from work", were my child was STOLEN..........that is an odd choice of words to me, as is the line I highlighted in red above.

Yes stolen indicated that he considered her a posession.  Then again he could just be one of those guys who sometimes tarts talking gangster as a defense mechanism.  I thought that bringing up how he has a gun was rather "ghetto" (no offense to anyone).

[islandmonkey]

Very well put Wkys~even the most seemingly insignificant clue could be the one that leads LE to Haleigh. I can't remember who stated this about 2 weeks in, but they said the LE was running a dual investigation due to this very fact.

Same thing that CCSO is doing in the search for Adji.  Looking at the most simplest of explanations and possibilities and having a parallel search of the more complex.  Unfortunately when you are left with nothing to go on you start with nothing, work with nothing, until you have a bit of something and hope it turns into the solution.....ugh I am so glad I do design and not crime.

So d@mn frustrating~all the time that has gone by and absolutely nothing!!!! But, Caylee wasn't found until 6 months later, so it's possible she's been missed somehow, maybe in the river, same with Adji IIRC wasn't he last seen walking towards water? I still pray we are wrong on both accounts, but statistically it doesn't look good.

[theboyzmom]

These may be helpful in someone's research. Just putting it out there if it's not already posted.

"FDLE has also established a toll-free number
(1-888-FL-PREDATOR) or (1-888-357-7332)
that allows the public to request information 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, about Sexual Predators living in cities and around the state."

"Sexual Offneders and Predators: Who Is a Sexual Offender - Who Is a Sexual Predator
http://www.bartowpd.org/sexoffenderd/sexoffender.htm

(There are also neighborhood search links at the bottom of the above link)

"Examine the Definition of 'Juevenile Sexual Defender' "
http://www.flsenate.gov/data/Publications/2007/Senate/reports/interim_reports/pdf/2007-108cj.pdf

WOW - if you offend as a juvenile you do not have to register? In Michigan you register immediately but you do not show up on the public search option until you are 18. If you do not have to register in FL I wonder how many under 18 people there are around the home that are predictors?