THE PERSISTENCE - THE TRAP (DOCUMENT)

[Tamikosmom]

SS
Re: To Scared Monkeys...
« Reply #360 on: March 21, 2010, 07:57:01 PM »

Yes Mum, Natalee and her family do deserve much more.  SM doesn't seem to care who they insult.  I think they have lost sight of many very important things.  It's a shame because there was a time when SM was at the top

http://goldmonkey.org/


+++++++++++++

SS

Your words are so self-righteous.  Do you forget that there was a short period in time when you were a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words in regards to a John Silvetti betrayal to Natalee Holloway and her family?  You had it figured out perfectly.

Let me remind you.  You went from unwavering support of CAPS and ... challenging anyone who dared question the actions or the motives of the Persistence endeavor ... to a full comprehension that CAPS was placed on the SM forum to distract from the happenings encompassing the trap/cage.

However ... inquiring minds do want to know what/who persuaded you to backtrack from your new found awareness and return to your orginal positions of support in regards to CAPS and John Silvetti.

Janet

+++++++++


SS - NOVEMBER/DECEMBER, 2008

SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
on: November 17, 2008, 08:32:15 PM  

Monkeys - Kyle said that he discovered the trap on the screen very early Christmas morning.  That's when Tim said  "it looks like a skull".  The contents of the trap were cleaned on January 7th.  Persistence continued to use side scan sonor to map the ocean floor well into February.  Now how could they justify all of those extra weeks of searching for a missing American woman if they had already found her in the beginning of January?  They also needed to get our focus off of Persistence and the ocean search.  Viola!  Caps enters the picture to tell us about Manserat Pond.  The picture of the cage was never supposed to be released and I'm sure that caused big trouble.  All of the evidence disappeared.  The fabric sent to Quantico wasn't Natalee's blouse.  There wasn't anything else in the cage - it was just a coconut or a piece of coral.  Back to the ocean search for Peristence so that they could continue with the grids and their non profit search.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546635#msg546635


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #156 on: December 04, 2008, 02:08:35 AM »

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.

2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.

3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.

4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.

5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.

6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg565794;topicseen#msg565794


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #310 on: November 17, 2008, 11:53:15 PM »

Jossy and John are friends.  John went to Aruba in March to attend a Mansur wedding.

Has anyone thought about the possibility that the Mansurs own the mineral rights on the ocean floor?  They own 80% of the island.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they own the mineral rights under the ocean shelf.  Translated that means whoever owns the mineral rights makes money off of every barrel of oil that is brought to the surface and John Silvetti had just finished the geological survey to determine where to place the off shore wells.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546590#msg546590


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #322 on: November 18, 2008, 12:22:13 AM »

Oil in that area of the Carribbean is touchy because of Chavez.  He owns everything.  The US needs allys with oil.  Is that why they have been easy on Aruba?  They didn't want the world to know that they planning off shore exploration and drilling.  Another factor was probably money.  Geological exploration is expensive.  Silvetti's company was just about bankrupt.  Wouldn't it be nice to have all of those mapping expenses written off because it was done for the purpose of searching for the body of a missing American woman.  Their survey was done for a nonprofit organization.  How magnanimous.  Crappy Island will be a boom town if they drill for oil and find it and the Mansurs will greatly increase their fortune.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.320


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #726 on: December 06, 2008, 04:23:52 PM »

I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569218#msg569218


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #697 on: December 06, 2008, 03:26:15 PM »

Blue Moon - great reference!  I have pretty much been a believer that Natalee was buried on land, but after Kyle's calculations, I don't think so anymore.  Kyle is a trained oceanographer and he has been taught how to make those calculations of objects on the ocean floor.  Kyle's calculations are actually the first piece of scientific data that we have after three and a half years.  I wonder if it would be too much of a stretch to hope that the release of the cage photographs somehow has forced Rudy's hand???  They can't deny any longer that something was in the cage.  There are photographs to prove the lie.  Whether or not they have destroyed the actual cage contents remains to be seen.  If the evidence has been destroyed, Richardson and Mos could also be in trouble along with Paulass and Uncle Jan.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569178#msg569178


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #702 on: December 06, 2008, 03:41:17 PM »

Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569184#msg569184


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #678 on: December 06, 2008, 01:52:46 PM »

I don't think anything would surprise me at this point.  This story is getting sicker by the day.  How could they just hand all of that evidence over to ALE and deny that they had found anything???  And, sit silently by when our FBI was sent a piece of nothing?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569137#msg569137
__________


Dialogue - SS and Tamikosmom:


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #755 on: November 24, 2008, 10:13:44 PM »

I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556201#msg556201
 

Tamikosmom
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #774 on: November 24, 2008, 10:39:01 PM »

I wish Kyle would respond to these allegations.

Thanks SS.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556243#msg556243


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #784 on: November 24, 2008, 10:46:48 PM »

Dinners over... I ate my crow and it didn't very good at all.  I am so sorry for going at you.  I was so convinced that everything and everyone involved with Perisistence were above reproach.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556257;topicseen#msg556257

[Tamikosmom]

A REMINDER

PRIVATE EYE - NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S UNCLE

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #559 on: March 01, 2008, 04:08:07 PM »

I hope that the Persistence has not done all of this work and gone to all of this expense only to have gotten itself into an arrangement whereby Aruban divers are the ones who actually verify the targets and are the first ones to physically retrieve evidence, with no American divers physically with them. If so, all I can say is I just can't believe this has happened. But surely I am wrong.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg358435#msg358435


private eye
Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #686 on: March 13, 2008, 06:38:07 PM »

... But sharing information with people who work for people who are directly orchestrating the cover up, Rudy, or the Dutch, is the most irresponsible investigating I can imagine. What kills this investigation is people having to come into it, wanting to apply basic investigatory protocols into place, and then having those channels sabotage the new evidence that the new players discover. Of course, as is happened everytime in this case, the new people eventually come to a point where the manipulation of the evidence is undeniable, but by then the fruits of their work are gone, and there is simply another member of the believers of the cover up group. What I pray that Kyle and the crew of the Persistence will determine, is that regardless of how hard working the man that they are working with appears to work, his work belongs to Rudy, and Rudy belongs to the local dutch.

We are not hysterical, ignorant, paranoid people. We have seen the cover up in action, in broad daylight, with impunity, and if you disregard our warnings, you will become the next chump in a series of chumps, no matter how sophisticated your equipment, the level of your educational achievement, or the extent of your job skills and work history.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364750#msg364750


private eye (Beth Holloway's Brother)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #690 on: March 13, 2008, 06:56:18 PM »

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364756#msg364756

don't believe that Kyle or anyone else is allowed to review the case documents, according to the policy of the prosecutors office. I thought the beauty of the Persistence is that they were to do a true grid seach mission which depends not on psychics or even tips from the authorities, and as such their work would be independent of the investigation. They were there simply to attempt to search a predefined area for Natalee's remains. So I am not sure why they have been lured into defending the work of the Aruban authorities or a discussion of the validity of the investigation as they are not knowledgeable as to the investigation, other than what they have been told by these Arubans. There are an awful lot of highly educated people who have been chumped by people of far less formal education. A well trained police force is not thwarted by a grieving mother and the media.

And Kyle, I by no means am being disrespectful, I think you are brilliant, sincerely. But I don't think your education or work experience has prepared you for a cover up by these types of people. And I think you may be severely underestimating the education, experience, and wisdom of the monkeys and other coverup believers. Don't let them make a fool of you. We need you.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364756#msg364756


private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #708 12/28
« Reply #897 on: December 30, 2007, 06:30:32 PM » 

They will have dateline onboard and I understand that they were involved in the Titantic so I assume they have the expertise to preserve any remains or artifacts and have a protocol. They can always find and locate it, call for assistance and then retrieve it. But that is my fear that they imediately turn it over to Aruba where her remains can become that of a large crab.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2481.880

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #738 3/1 -
« Reply #459 on: March 02, 2008, 09:14:30 PM »

She was not upset with the Persistence returning home. She was devastated by a signifcant finding, which turned out false, apparently back in December. Two completely separate events I thought.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2664.msg359392;topicseen#msg359392

[Tamikosmom]

DATELINE AND THE PERSISTENCE

SCARED MONKEYS

oceanexploration
Re: Ocean Search - Aruba - December 2007
« Reply #139 on: February 23, 2008, 07:03:29 PM »

My main regret with the broadcast is John Silvetti not getting the credit he was due.  John's the owner of the Persistence, owner of Marine Surveys LLC, and the field project manager of the search. 
Regardless how good of a production it was - Generally speaking, there should never be a broadcast giving details about an active investigation.  When the investigation is complete and no longer potentially sensitive to either the case, victims family, or suspect (s), then sure... why not broadcast it.  It is irresponsible and potentially damaging to do what they did (broadcasting the show while the search is still active) and they broke their agreement with Tim and John to make this production.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2438.msg354749#msg354749
 

oceanexploration
Re: Ocean Search - Aruba - December 2007
« Reply #134 on: February 23, 2008, 12:09:04 PM »

Greetings,

Thank you all for your kind words, support, and prayers.  We're all bracing for the fall-out of the Dateline broadcast.  We'll provide an update soon.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2438.msg354544;topicseen#msg354544


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« on: February 29, 2008, 09:27:19 AM »

Red,

Let me make myself perfectly clear.  Your bitterness towards me is neither my fault nor my concern.  If what you said is true and Tim Miller said something making you feel entitled to be on board this boat at some point, he was mistaken.  It was not his decision, nor mine.  He is not the project manager.  Don't take your frustrations out on me or retaliate against us or turn people against us because of your hurt feelings.  This was not personal which you're making it.

I have never made accusations towards you or SM.  I have been a strong supporter of SM since the beginning of this search.  Otherwise I wouldn't have put a link from our Blog.
 
The email I sent you was in confidence (which you violated) which simply asked where the pics came from and how they came to SM, where I first saw them posted.

You say how dare me?   How DARE YOU for questioning me and demand appology about those pics when you were mistaken.  I am the one who made those screen captures from live ROV footage. You foolishly thought they were taken from the footage on Dateline! Who are you to question us about our work?  Who are you to compare your search efforts to ours as if it were a contest of "who loves Natalee more"?  Newsflash: We are working on the same side, to bring justice.  Do you think we don't respect SM and your efforts since the beginning?  How wrong you are and how arrogant!

My apologies to all Monkeys.  You all know I love and respect all that you've done since the beginning, despite what Red would like you to think from his emotional rants.  It is probable that this search would not have happened if SM hasn't pushed the issues since the beginning.  I'm sorry for Red and his arrogance.  He's stepped on my toes for the last time.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2660.msg357379;topicseen#msg357379


ocean exploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #80 on: February 29, 2008, 08:34:30 PM »

Fair enough and well put.  However, we never mislead anyone and here's why:  We never said a word about finding anything so that we purposefully wouldn't mislead anyone and that others wouldn't mislead more...and so on and so on. The only mention by us about finding anything other than shipwrecks was buried in one posting on our blog where we said samples were recovered and sent for analysis.  This came after a local paper was chattering about some sort of samples, yet knew nothing of their nature, origin, or destination (Mos made some short statement).  The ones chatting about it is the media (Dateline,  via Tim Miller, Greta, etc).  They'll mislead you (not intentionally), not us. 

It works like this and you can take this to the bank:  As far as this case goes and others... the more someone says about anything the more you will be mislead by them.  If what they say contains even slight inaccuracies, those errors accumulate and propogate through the media like a game of telephone.  Ever play the game, telephone?  It's fascinating to watch when you're the one who sends the first message and watches it while it gets twisted and transformed person to person.  Now imagine when you have something given to the press and it's translated into Papiamento... then to Dutch... then to English (or any combination of the three).  They do the best they can and most mean well. 

Now ask yourself the question:  Why is there so much variety and discord among theories floating around on the net about this case? A majority of the source material was made available by... the media.  Also, it's a very complicated case.  Of course this is all just my opinion.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg357890;topicseen#msg357890


ocean exploration
Re: Ocean Search - Aruba - December 2007
« Reply #139 on: February 23, 2008, 07:03:29 PM »

My main regret with the broadcast is John Silvetti not getting the credit he was due.  John's the owner of the Persistence, owner of Marine Surveys LLC, and the field project manager of the search.
 
Regardless how good of a production it was - Generally speaking, there should never be a broadcast giving details about an active investigation.  When the investigation is complete and no longer potentially sensitive to either the case, victims family, or suspect (s), then sure... why not broadcast it.  It is irresponsible and potentially damaging to do what they did (broadcasting the show while the search is still active) and they broke their agreement with Tim and John to make this production.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2438.msg354749;topicseen#msg354749


ocean exploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM »
 
There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.

Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap.  (very small clip of this video on Dateline).  Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor.  The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.

Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

What you all really didn't know (nor Tim Miller when he said his statements to the press, neither Dateline NBC when they broadcasted their lovely special):

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap.  The trap was not recovered.  Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis.  Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

The trap in Video 1-3 was found from the first conducted ROV dive.  I found the target at 1:46 am on Christmas morning.  It was my #1 ranked priority target and therefore the first of the ROV dive series. 

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets.  None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047;topicseen#msg360047


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #284 on: March 03, 2008, 07:34:25 PM »

To clarify the thumb down issue:

-It was agreed immediately before the 30-Dec dive that 2 thumbs up (by Tim Trahan) meant positive ID on Natalee from something conclusive.

-One thumb up was to indicate human remains

There was no set signal pre-dive for anything but the above scenarios.
 
By Tim's own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive. His signal indicated an inconclusive observation referring to the object said by some to be a skull, a hardened sponge by others...

What you can't see is immediately before Tim approached the trap opening, a large skate stirred up sediment reducing visibility.

The quick signal came because the dive time was nearly up.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360282#msg360282


Oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #298 on: March 03, 2008, 07:52:45 PM »

I appreciate the offer, I accept.  I will not talk about what I shouldn't, let alone what I can't.  However, I believe what is already out in the open is better off made clear and accurate, rather than thrown out in the open and left for passionate people to decifer (based on 6 screen shots, a few comments by people who weren't present the entire time, and some fuzzy Dateline footage).   

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360296;topicseen#msg360296


oceanexploration
Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -
« Reply #732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM »
 
Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January

Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.

Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312;topicseen#msg366312


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -
« Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM »

The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


NATALEE’S FREEBIRDS

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec.

Kyle Kingman:  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti.

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline already began scripting a story that we found Natalee on the 29th of Dec. Obviously this was halted on Dec 30th."

Kyle Kingman: The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat.

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline already began scripting a story that we found Natalee on the 29th of Dec. Obviously this was halted on Dec 30th."

Kyle Kingman:  Present for the Jan 7th dive were:  Persistence crew, 3 Aruban divers.  Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan

I know Richardson for a fact knew about the samples. Mos, I don't know if he ever saw anything for certain. I have no way to confirm or deny his involvement.
 
I'll try to get a list of all people that were ever on the boat and when they were there. This included the meeting on the morning of Dec 30th which is briefly shown on Dateline, where everyone is hovering around my shoulder including Mos and Richardson. This is when they're viewing the 1st ROV video from the 29th dive.

Kyle Kingman:  Right before the Dateline special aired Tim and Louis asked if I could go to ABC to try to sell the footage in an attempt to recoup some of the money invested in the search efforts. ABC was very interested, but decided to wait until the Dateline special aired. After the show they came back to me and declined to purchase it because they felt too much of the story was already told by Dateline. That ended any communication with ABC. About 6 executive producers saw the footage, but none were allowed copies or any pictures. Everything remained in my possesion.

Kyle Kingman:  On the contrary, neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge.  Oh, no one has possession of any footage except Tim Trahan, an archived copy on the Persistence, and myself.

Kyle Kingman:   I would really like to know how that got out on the [JAN] 23rd.  I know for a fact the following cast of characters knew about the trap and sampling. This is not a complete list, just who I know who knew:  Dateline NBC, Tim Miller, Dave and Robin H., Beth, Persistence crew, Aruban police dive division, Tim Trahan, Louis Schafer (sp), Mos, Richardson, Eduardo Mansur

Kermit - Scared Monkeys


BLOGS FOR NATALEE

oceanexploration
February 25, 2008, 01:20:33 PM
 
When the search is concluded and the investigation completed I will perhaps be able to comment in greater detail about targets.  For now, mum's the word.  Dateline should have followed the same protocol

/blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8381.0


THE DATELINE PRODUCTION

The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.
 
The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

More:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

thx

[Tamikosmom]

THE NICARAGUA HOAX

Maybe it was Monday, December 31, 2007 ... the day following the visual dive on the trap ... the day that Tim Miller and Dateline left the Persistence ... that the Nicaragua lead entered the scenario.  There must have been a good reason that Tim Miller left the ship.  Think about it.  On the previous day ... Kyle and Tim had been discussing a recovery dive on the trap.

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.


The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

For the Holloways, though, another wild ride began.

This bizarre story originated in the central American nation of Nicaragua.

It happened last month, when Natalee’s father Dave received a message from a man who called himself Marcos. He said he had important information about where they could find Natalee's body .....

More:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[Tamikosmom]

WAS DATELINE AWARE?

Was the Dateline crew aware that they were mislead by Tim Trahan when following the visual dive he stated that there was nothing Natalee Holloway case related inside the trap?

Was the Dateline crew aware that it was only the Aruban divers who claimed that there was nothing case significant inside that trip?

++++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. 

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline already began scripting a story that we found Natalee on the 29th of Dec. Obviously this was halted on Dec 30th.

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising.  Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan. We discussed ahead of time 1 thumb up means positively human remains, 2 thumbs up... something conclusively identifying Natalee. When Tim T. gives one thumb down, he said that it was inconclusive

Kyle Kingman: The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

[Tamikosmom]

TIM MILLER AND THE DATELINE CONNECTION

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys


oceanexploration
Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -
« Reply #732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM »
 
Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January

Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.

Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312;topicseen#msg366312

[Tamikosmom]

FBI FOLLOW-UP?

Has the FBI contacted and questioned the members of the Dateline crew in regards to what was observed while on board the Persistence and ... what were insights regarding the happenings encompassing the trap/cage?

+++++++++


klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

<snipped>

During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.

At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349

[Tamikosmom]

http://www.film.com/tv/dateline-nbc/season-17-2007/episode-6-the-search-for-natalee-holloway/21305245


Chris Hansen                 Correspondent
David Corvo                  Executive Producer
Tim Uehlinger             Producer
Sarah M Longden           Booking Producer
Elizabeth W Ruksznis      Producer
Robin Davis                   Associate Producer
Kim Krawitz                   Producer
Falguni Lakhani              Booking Producer
Don Wood                     Producer
Sarah Gregory               Associate Producer

[Tamikosmom]

FBI FOLLOWUP?

Were the members of the Persistence crew contacted and questioned by the FBI following  receipt of the Natalee's Freebirds documentation which appears to reveal a betrayal by the Project lead.

++++++++++

ORIGINAL - NOVEMBER 26, 2007

The Search for Natalee Holloway

Monday, November 26, 2007
I. Mobilization

KKey Personnel:
 
Louis Shaffer - Project Lead and Key Contributor - Responsible for financial support, planning, public relations, and press coordination.
 
Tim Miller - Texas Equusearch http://www.texasequusearch.org/ - Project Management, gathering support, missing persons specialist

Tim Trahan - Underwater Expeditions - Project Management

John Silvetti - Project Lead and Key Contributor- Responsible for overall project planning and development. Owner of Marine Surveys, LLC . Donated the R/V Persistence for the search effort.
http://silvettigroup.com/

Marc Broussard - Project Manager - Responsible for logistics, personnel, and planning.

Kent Bourg- Party Chief - Responsible for the R/V Persistence operations and safety. Kent will also operate the side scan sonar.

Kyle Kingman - Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.

Dr. Rob Floyd - Marine Geologist /Archaeologist - Responsible for analog sonar data interpretation and analysis and quality control.

Anthony Fontenot - Acoustic Positioning Technician - Responsible for navigation, acoustic tracking, and positioning of the side scan sonar and ROV.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/11/mobilization.html


EDITED - SOME PERIOD OF TIME PRIOR TO MARCH 5, 2009

The Search for Natalee Holloway

Monday, November 26, 2007
I. Mobilization

Key Personnel: Bios coming soon! Please check back soon

Louis Schaefer Jr. - Project Lead and Key Contributor

Tim Miller - Project Management -Founder of Texas Equusearch http://www.texasequusearch.org/

Tim Trahan - Underwater Expeditions - Project Management

John Silvetti - Project Lead and Key Contributor- Responsible for overall project planning and development. Owner of Marine Surveys, LLC . Providing the R/V Persistence for the search effort. http://silvettigroup.com/

Marc Broussard - Project Manager

Kent Bourg - Party Chief

Kyle Kingman - Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist

Dr. Rob Floyd - Marine Geologist /Archaeologist

Anthony Fontenot - Acoustic Positioning Technician

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/11/mobilization.html

[Tamikosmom]

January 7, 2008

Needle in a haystack
Information overload still plagues Holloway disappearance
By Brian Livingston
 
Trying to find the truth about the disappearance of his daughter, Dave Holloway and his attorney must first wade through a sea of misinformation.

Monday was a prime example of what Holloway must put up with.

A man, who said he was calling from Nicaragua, contacted Holloway telling him he knew the whereabouts of his daughter, 18-year old Natalee Holloway, who has been missing since March 25, 2005 during a senior trip to Aruba. After talking with the man who would not give his name or phone number, Dave Holloway has all but written off the "source" as bogus.

"I've gotten a lot of strange stories since Natalee's disappearance," said Holloway. "Although the number of calls aren't as bad as they used to be, we still get them."

After listening to the man's claims, Holloway referred him to the attorney handling the case on this end.

"I'm about at the point where I'm running out of options," said Holloway. "The case has been closed by Aruban authorities and there just isn't any good information coming in anymore. But I still have to listen to every story I can. Maybe one day something will come from one of them."

A boat is still searching off the island of Aruba for Natalee's body. Working alongside Texas Equa-Search, a non-profit organization that specializes in searching for missing persons, Holloway said the owner of a survey boat equipped with some of the most up to date undersea technology has generously volunteered his time and crew to search for the missing teen.

"They've been down there for about three weeks," Holloway said. "You never know, maybe they'll find something."

Natalee Holloway was last seen the night before she and her classmates from Mountain Brook High School, located just outside Birmingham, Ala., were due to return from Aruba on a senior trip. Witnesses said they saw her get into a car occupied by three Aruban natives, Joran van der Sloot, Deepak Kalpoe and his younger brother, Satish Kalpoe.

During a television interview for the news program 48 Hours on March 25, 2006, Aruben Lead Investigator Gerold Dompig said theories surrounding the investigation, prior to it being closed, included Natalee's body being moved two or more times. The "source" Monday said the body was buried in Nicaragua instead of being dumped in the ocean as first suspected. Holloway has his doubts.

"He claims to have physical evidence but then balked at sending me samples so I could have DNA checked," Dave Holloway said. "There's another sign that this may be just another dead end."

Holloway has now been around the block several times since his daughter became missing. He knows there are a large number of people who would like to gain some sort of financial windfall by providing false information. As tiresome as it gets to field these kinds of calls, Holloway knows he has to listen, if for just a minute.

"Some people mean well and are genuinely trying to help but others are out there to rip you off," he said. "It's just something we have to put up with right now."

It will all stop when Natalee is found, he said.

http://cnhi.siteencore.com/meridianstar/auto_launch/index.html

[Tamikosmom]

I am a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words which were submitted to the Natalee's Freebirds' forum regarding the happening on board the Persistence encompassing the trap/cage.  However ... it is apparent that at some period in time Kyle is having second thoughts in regards to his original honorable intentions of exposing what appeared to him to be a betrayal of Natalee Holloway and her family.

Janet

++++++

BACKTRACKING

klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds

<snipped>

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage.  Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.
 
We later found out that never happened.

At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.
 
This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.
 
Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349


++++++++


KYLE KINGMAN -MIXED MESSAGES

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December …

"I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum."

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I couldn't agree more. It was wrong to sit on the footage. I did everything I could to get them out and get them to Beth. Imagine how I felt having found the trap. I was told to move forward and to forget about the trap. I was told not to show anyone the images. I got around this through Tim Trahan. It took months. The only way I felt I could do anything was through here. I hoped through here that at least the images could get to Beth.

Kyle Kingman: Since I got the go ahead from Tim (T), we can legally move forward. The document should follow-up the screen shots and trap content description. We can sent the document after the initial dialog. I trust then she (Beth) will be interested in the document.  The contents of the document should be discussed and agreed upon by the birds. Since I'm new here, I should take a back seat to this IMO. I would think it would be a case synthesis which culminates with the trap contents and lack of interest and motivation to fully process the site. Perhaps Beth will then use the document to create the proper motivation using the information to apply political pressure from both sides. The problem I ran into earlier with the FBI was that their hands are tied to do anything unless they're invited to the party. I think political pressure properly applied will ensure an invite to the party. Thoughts?

Title - perhaps "Case Synthesis and Search Results", or something to that effect.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys
 

KYLE KINGMAN - EMAIL TO KERMIT

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 -
« Reply #540 on: December 19, 2008, 06:15:18 PM »

Kyle sent me this today

Kermit,
 
You and the others agreed to a statement of confidentiality and nondisclosure at FB.  Before I posted any information, I posted a copyright notice at the very start which disallowed ANY and ALL of my posts, intellectual property, or pictures to leave the spot they were posted.  Everyone, including yourself, acknowledged this affirmatively. A lawyer said that ownership of that posted material cannot be transferred by a general claim of copyright such as a claim made on the front page of a website, or even by verbal consent. Written agreement, meaning a signed agreement, is required for the post to be owned by the site owner. Without a signed agreement, the poster owns the post. I did not give you permission, which I have stated many times when you were in violation. While the rest agreed, you violated this legal agreement repeatedly.  You have taken many of my posts, snipped what you wanted to put them into your context, and then shared them in a public forum.  The "public domain" notion only applies where someone has copyright ownership over the work in the first case and that ownership has lapsed. In that case, all posts can be freely reproduced by anyone, anywhere, without violating copyright law. However, this is clearly not the case.

I will state this with absolute clarity so there is no misunderstanding:
I have confirmed with the FBI on multiple instances that they have had possession of the ROV videos since very early on. I personally didn't send the ROV footage to them because another project lead had already at the first opportunity while we were still in Aruba. I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.

I also got confirmation back in February by Tim Trahan who was in constant contact with Beth during the search that she indeed had all the information including the statements and has seen the ROV videos. I personally confirmed all of this with the senior FBI agent in charge of the investigation as well as given him my personal account of all that I witnessed and knew. They have this on record.  Birmingham is not the office in charge.
 
The information you have been spreading is not only inaccurate and a violation of a non-disclosure, it is slanderous and spreading misinformation. The damage it has done to my professional relationship with J. Silvetti is incalculable which has a direct effect on my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter named after Natalee.
 
I have neither publicly responded to your provocative antics, or retaliated with personal attacks in response to yours. I also have never threatened you as you publicly claimed.
 
I recently asked the senior FBI agent in charge how I should handle this situation which you have incited.   I thought his response was terrific. He replied: "Just sit back and keep quiet.  Kermit doesn't matter".

So this is exactly what I've done. I wrote this letter to you as a gesture of courtesy in hopes it would save you from further embarrassment from those who actually know something about this case.  I'm not referring to myself, rather the family and lead investigators who are out legitimately investigating this case in pursuit of justice right to the top.
 
Sincerely,
 Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4246.msg592482;topicseen#msg592482

[Tamikosmom]

A CONFLICT OF THE CONSCIENCE

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 -
« Reply #540 on: December 19, 2008, 06:15:18 PM »

Kyle sent me this today

Kermit,

.... The information you have been spreading is not only inaccurate and a violation of a non-disclosure, it is slanderous and spreading misinformation. The damage it has done to my professional relationship with J. Silvetti is incalculable which has a direct effect on my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter named after Natalee ....

Sincerely,
 Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4246.msg592482;topicseen#msg592482


ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December

"I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this). Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place. It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence."

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

[Tamikosmom]

In his posts ... Kyle Kingman refers to both Tim Miller and Tim Trahan's participation in the events encompassing the trap.

Could it be that Tim Miller and Tim Trahan were the only two crew members who were the focus of the NBC Dateline production?  Could it be that Tim Miller and Tim Trahan were the only two crew members who were heard on the talk show circuit?

I believe ... if they broke their silence ... ALL members of the Persistence crew could affirm  Kyle Kingman's own words.  This is why I am curious if the FBI contacted and questioned them regarding their observations and insights following the receipt of the Natalee's Freebirds' documentation of Kyle Kingman's own words concerning the betrayal of an American citizen.

Janet

+++++++++++

1. Tim Miller
2. Tim Trahan
3. Marc Broussard
4. Kent Bourg
5. Kyle Kingman
6. Dr. Rob Floyd
7. Anthony Fontenot


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti.

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys


THE DATELINE PRODUCTION

The search for Natalee Holloway

TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.
 
The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

More:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[Tamikosmom]

KYLE KINGMAN - EMAIL TO KERMIT

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #786 12/17/08 -
« Reply #540 on: December 19, 2008, 06:15:18 PM »

Kyle sent me this today

Kermit,
 
<snipped>

I will state this with absolute clarity so there is no misunderstanding:

I have confirmed with the FBI on multiple instances that they have had possession of the ROV videos since very early on. I personally didn't send the ROV footage to them because another project lead had already at the first opportunity while we were still in Aruba. I sent all of the ROV screen shots directly to the FBI the day they were acquired.

I also got confirmation back in February by Tim Trahan who was in constant contact with Beth during the search that she indeed had all the information including the statements and has seen the ROV videos. I personally confirmed all of this with the senior FBI agent in charge of the investigation as well as given him my personal account of all that I witnessed and knew. They have this on record.  Birmingham is not the office in charge.

<snipped>
 
Sincerely,
 Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4246.msg592482;topicseen#msg592482

CONTRADICTIONS

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th. Remember, 6 of the pics from the 29th I sent to the FBI ended up on the Internet thanks to the FBI leaking them to Dave and therefore Robin H."

Kyle Kingman: On the contrary, neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge.  Oh, no one has possession of any footage except Tim Trahan, an archived copy on the Persistence, and myself.


klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

<snipped>

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.

During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.

We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.

At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman's own words to Jug Twitty in December, 2008 contradict those in his posts submitted to the Natalee's Freebirds' forum ... posts exposed by Kermit in November, 2008.

+++++++++

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December ... 

Some exerts:

Quote
I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.

Quote
About half of what said was opinion, which I clearly stated. They used a lot of my words taken out of context and confused opinions with facts.

Quote
I didn't dodge questions. I didn't have this information. I disappeared from the board because I was working offshore of Norway in the North Sea and also in remote places in North Africa and Egypt. I was gone from July through September. When I came back, I logged into the forum and saw they were about to release this grand document containing basically everything I said or posted. Much of it I knew was incorrect and based on opinion. I didn't agree with this, knowing it was inaccurate and also it was understood that nothing I posted was to be made public. They pressured me to change my mind and I wouldn't.

Quote
I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this). Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place. It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence.

Quote
I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received. They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap.

Quote
John wasn't refusing to give it any credence before inspection on Jan 7th, he was remaining objective and keeping focused. I said John wasn't convinced. He wasn't. He said he wouldn't be convinced unless he heard otherwise from the FBI.

Quote
Tim Miller went to Nicaragua on his own terms and Dateline followed him. Tim was chasing down the Nicaraguan lead. He wasn't removed from the Persistence.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

[Tamikosmom]

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December ... 

Some exerts:

<snipped>

Quote:
Tim Miller went to Nicaragua on his own terms and Dateline followed him. Tim was chasing down the Nicaraguan lead. He wasn't removed from the Persistence.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

Tim Miller may have been under the impression he was leaving the Persistence "on his own terms" but ... in reality ... could it be that the Nicaragua tip had been created as a diversion to shift the focus from the happenings encompassing the visual dive of December 30, 2007 ... the happenings that troubled Tim.

+++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess. I took a lot of heat for telling Tim Miller anything about the trap that may have prompted him to making the calls to the family. In my defence, I specifically told Tim not to tell anyone about the trap until the contents are analysed. He couldn't wait. He was very emotional, hopeful, and confident. It was a crushing time for all. Most of all- for Tim Miller, Dave, and Beth. This was Dec 30th.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

[Tamikosmom]

When Kyle Kingman refers to DATELINE on board the Persistence ... is DATELINE a crew or is DATELINE only Tim Uelinger?

+++++++

EXAMPLES

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec.

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

bbl

[Tamikosmom]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

BOYCOTT ARUBA--JUSTICE FOR NATALEE

Comments:

DEA can fire on ALE said...

ALE are tapping on the cellphone towers to listen on Persistence's wireless. They bugged the timeshare like Mos did without a court order. Periscopes are mounted on top of the high rises to watch the crew and operations. The Dutch spy satellite is tracking every inch of Persistence's movement. They are very unhappy about the clear sonar images. One image is of a drug submarine sunked by the coast guard. The other one image is the anchor and chain used to weight down a crab cage of a missing American's body. The crab cage is somewhere separated and sitting nearby. Persistence did not provide that image. It may be Natalee is inside the cage. This morning is super emotional and silent. John, Tim and Kyle are studying the closer snapshot of the crab cage. Something look like tennis shoes and a big knife inside. Some bones with some blue fabric around them. Most likely they belong to Natalee. The ALE are waiting for the warrant signed by judge Bob Witt to board Persistence and take over. However, the Persistence has the protection of the DEA helicopters. They can fire the hellfire missiles on the ALE boats. Aruba wants to make Persistence an international crisis to coverup it's cold case.

December 21, 2007 11:33:00 AM EST

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2007/12/just-in-natalees-case-closed.html


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #777 11/21/08 thru
« Reply #707 on: November 23, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »

I found the trap sonar target at 1:42 am on Christmas morning.  I was asked if I had any targets to investigate with the ROV on Dev 29th.  I did.  We then performed the 1st ROV dive and confirmed the sonar target was the trap.  This was the first ROV dive performed.  No other dives were performed prior to this.  I kept the sonar target list very confidential.  I didn't need people knowing about it and people on board knew well enough not even to ask.  When it was time to dive I have the target location. Until then, it was kept confidential.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.msg554268;topicseen#msg554268

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman - 05/17/2008:  I need immediate help.  I need to know what we know about Caps and Destiny. I need their names if possible.  I also need the information Caps originally posted about the pond search. Preferably the original posts with date and time stamps.  Apparently I'm being accused by Mos, the Polis, and J. Silvetti as leaking the photos to SM. 

[Tamikosmom]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

BOYCOTT ARUBA--JUSTICE FOR NATALEE

Comments:

DEA can fire on ALE said...
ALE are tapping on the cellphone towers to listen on Persistence's wireless. They bugged the timeshare like Mos did without a court order. Periscopes are mounted on top of the high rises to watch the crew and operations. The Dutch spy satellite is tracking every inch of Persistence's movement. They are very unhappy about the clear sonar images. One image is of a drug submarine sunked by the coast guard. The other one image is the anchor and chain used to weight down a crab cage of a missing American's body. The crab cage is somewhere separated and sitting nearby. Persistence did not provide that image. It may be Natalee is inside the cage. This morning is super emotional and silent. John, Tim and Kyle are studying the closer snapshot of the crab cage. Something look like tennis shoes and a big knife inside. Some bones with some blue fabric around them. Most likely they belong to Natalee. The ALE are waiting for the warrant signed by judge Bob Witt to board Persistence and take over. However, the Persistence has the protection of the DEA helicopters. They can fire the hellfire missiles on the ALE boats. Aruba wants to make Persistence an international crisis to coverup it's cold case.

December 21, 2007 11:33:00 AM EST

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2007/12/just-in-natalees-case-closed.html

When you consider that the existence of the cage/trap that contained what appeared to be the remains of Natalee Holloway was known by Kyle, Tim (?) and John prior to the December 25th sonar discovery ... could it be assumed that the Persistence was led right to the target by the Aruban enemy and .. was used by the Aruban enemy in the recovery process?

Could it be that Kyle Kingman did not tell the whole story in his own words to the Natalee's Freebirds?  In other words ... the December 24th sonar discovery came as not surprise.

The crew signed confidentiality agreements but ... could it be that John Silvetti did not anticipate Tim Miller's public reaction to the find?  Could it be that John Silvetti did not anticipate Kyle Kingman's own words which were submitted to a private forum?

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case

Kyle Kingman:  Just before Christmas they are contacted by a detective and his brother who gave them information that turned out to be the correct latitude.

Kyle Kingman:  The detective's brother gave what he thought were coordinates, but turned out to be a line of latitude. This latitude aligned with Arashi beach and came within a half mile of the fish trap.

Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt.

I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth

Kyle Kingman:  The implications of this are tremendous. If true, it means that the early investigators knew where and how Natalee was disposed and it was kept secret and covered up.

Kyle Kingman:   I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman:  ROV visual inspection of the trap. (very small clip of this video on Dateline). Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor. The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.

Kyle Kingman:[/b]  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: The FBI told me they could not send a representative down to us in Aruba unless they were specifically invited to do so by the Aruban authorities. They were simply uninvited.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman:  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

oceanexploration (Kyle Kingman) - Scared Monkeys