THE PERSISTENCE - THE TRAP (DOCUMENT)

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that while Kyle Kingman's own words posted on BFN contrasted his own words submited to the Natalee's Freebirds forum.

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KYLE KINGMEN - BLOGS FOR NATALEE


Lifesong
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #804 3/1/09 -
« Reply #405 on: March 04, 2009, 01:41:43 AM »
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4617.msg702030#msg702030

I've never read all of Kyle's posts at BFN, found an interesting one.  This is crazy!

oceanexploration
Re: OPEN DISCUSSION - NATALEE - MAR. 2008 (1)
 on: March 18, 2008, 08:49:01 PM

"I don't know what thread this belongs but I'm sure you can move it where it belongs.  Sorry but this needs to be said:

As a true leader, John Silvetti was the first in Aruba and the last to leave for home.  He worked tirelessly to lead the project in the field, as well as keep his companies afloat from abroad.  What I find truly remarkable, is his dedication to building relationships.  You would read that sentence and let it go thinking he is building relationships to gain trust for his agenda.  Not so. John made all relationships important, from Richardson and Mos, to all the people in service at the hotels that he stayed.  While sharing breakfast with John one morning at the hotel, ALL the people who worked at the hotel who passed John smiled warmly and respectfully and said hello to him.  I'll take a risk at sharing this... He heard about an upcoming birthday of one of the servers at the hotel and bought them a cake and gave them a company t-shirt. Why?  Because he believes you should have a cake and get a present on your birthday.  John demonstrated love not just for the sake of Natalee and her family, but for his team, for his country, and for all the people he came in contact with regardless of nationality, job description, or what they could do for him. John never cared about attention, but rather shunned it.  John never showed selfishness, but was consistently selfless.  He is the most genuinely impressive character I have come in contact with in a long time.  It's a pleasure to call him friend and an honor to work by his side."

[Tamikosmom]

Beth Holloway received a heads-up in March, 2008 from her brother that Kyle Kingman had concerns regarding the contents of the trap recovered by the Aruban divers.
+++++++

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #448 on: March 20, 2008, 05:18:50 PM »

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull ....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen#msg367178

ty gn

[Tamikosmom]

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #738 3/1 -
« Reply #459 on: March 02, 2008, 09:14:30 PM »

She was not upset with the Persistence returning home. She was devastated by a signifcant finding, which turned out false, apparently back in December. Two completely separate events I thought.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2664.msg359392;topicseen#msg359392

[Tamikosmom]

How long has JD Silvetti been a Corporate Sponsor of TES? Hmmmmmmm.

http://texasequusearch.org/

Thanks Sharon/Tx.

Janet

  You are welcome Janet.  I am not getting a good feeling.

TIM MILLER AND THE PERSISTENCE

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec.

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.
 
Kyle Kingman: Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan. He couldn't tell by his own admission.

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

 Kyle Kingman: John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.
 
Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.
 
Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks.

Kyle Kingman: We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap.
 
Kyle Kingman: For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #804 3/1/09 -
« Reply #486 on: March 04, 2009, 05:18:48 PM »

I was just sent screen shots of posts from BFN discussing all of this.

All I can say is how utterly stunned I am at some of the posts made there.

I have a few questions to pose to those who have taken the stance that people here are undermining and "slandering" the members/participants in the Persistence's trip to Aruba.

First and foremost - I believe you are ALL either purposefully ignoring one simple fact, or have simply missed it - Kyle Kingman himself is the person who said all of these things about the activities surrounding the cage find.

No one else.

Kyle Kingman - a member of the Persistence crew, who was present for all that occurred.

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4617.msg702870;topicseen#msg702870

[Tamikosmom]

Beth Holloway received a heads-up in March, 2008 from her brother that Kyle Kingman had concerns regarding the contents of the trap recovered by the Aruban divers.
+++++++

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #448 on: March 20, 2008, 05:18:50 PM »

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull ....

more:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen#msg367178

ty gn

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #449 on: March 20, 2008, 05:32:37 PM »

Private Eye,

Please email me to discuss this further, not in the forum thanks!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman is not making sense.  He knows exactly what private eye is referring to.  It appears while Kyle is confiding the truth to the Natalee's Freebirds ... he is furthering the Aruban agenda of denying Natalee Holloway justice in regards to the contents on the trap in both his blog and on the SM Forum.

Janet

+++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #455 on: March 20, 2008, 05:52:31 PM »

PE - What you are describing isn't entirely accurate and I'm unaware of denim, but am glad to help straighten things out for you.  It's best to go to the original data rather than some poor quality screen shots.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen


THE BETRAYAL

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:   I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.


THE TARP

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  07-Jan we dove on the trap with Aruban divers and our ROV recording the dive. They found the piece of blue tarp and blue denim-like fabric, and other things I can't identify.

Kyle Kingman:   I am 100% confident other important items are at that site and can be found during processing of the site with a suction system.  The only confirmation of items sampled were blue fabric and the piece of tarp.  This is the only thing Richardson and Mos independantly confirmed.  Remember, they each only confirmed one piece.  One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp.  From the video you see both.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.


THE FABRIC/DENIM

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand.

Kyle Kingsman: Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.

Kermit @ scaredmonkeys.net

[Tamikosmom]

It was called to my attention yesterday that Beth Holloway received a heads-up in March, 2008 from her brother ... a heads-up that Kyle Kingman had concerns regarding the contents of the trap recovered by the Aruban divers.

+++++++

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #448 on: March 20, 2008, 05:18:50 PM »

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull ....

more:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen#msg367178


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #449 on: March 20, 2008, 05:32:37 PM »

Private Eye,

Please email me to discuss this further, not in the forum thanks!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen

[Tamikosmom]

(Continued)


DENIM?

Kyle Kingman is not making sense in his words to private eye.  When describing Natalee's skirt ... the word "denim" has been referenced often.

Janet


++++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #455 on: March 20, 2008, 05:52:31 PM »

PE - What you are describing isn't entirely accurate and I'm unaware of denim, but am glad to help straighten things out for you.  It's best to go to the original data rather than some poor quality screen shots.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178;topicseen

++++++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  07-Jan we dove on the trap with Aruban divers and our ROV recording the dive. They found the piece of blue tarp and blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew. In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted.

Kyle Kingman: We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.

[Tamikosmom]

A MAJOR COSMIC WTF

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:   I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

[Tamikosmom]

Hotshot
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #202 on: December 04, 2008, 03:07:37 AM »

... You guys are going to look really silly in the end for downing the people like silvetti, and Kyle, and CAPS.  There must be more to do with your time then pick on the ones who actually go out of their way to help.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg565899#msg565899


LOGIC DICTATES

jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #804 3/1/09 -
« Reply #486 on: March 04, 2009, 05:18:48 PM »

I was just sent screen shots of posts from BFN discussing all of this.

All I can say is how utterly stunned I am at some of the posts made there.

I have a few questions to pose to those who have taken the stance that people here are undermining and "slandering" the members/participants in the Persistence's trip to Aruba.

First and foremost - I believe you are ALL either purposefully ignoring one simple fact, or have simply missed it - Kyle Kingman himself is the person who said all of these things about the activities surrounding the cage find.

No one else.

Kyle Kingman - a member of the Persistence crew, who was present for all that occurred.

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4617.msg702870;topicseen#msg702870

ty

[Tamikosmom]

MumInOhio
Re: To Scared Monkeys...
« Reply #424 on: May 06, 2010, 07:03:12 AM »

Janet...

Consider where Kyle's own words came from.

... You have been had, my dear and not by any of us who now post in Natalee threads here and at other forums.

http://goldmonkey.org/


__________


Mum

Where do believe that Kyle Kingman's own words originated?

Either Kyle Kingman has revealed the truth regarding the furthering of the Aruban coverup by John Silvetti ... the Aruban coverup that has prevented justice from prevailing for Natalee Holloway since May 30, 2005 or ... Kyle is the grandfather of all liars.

I firmly believe that Kyle Kingman original intentions for posting on the Natalee's Freebird forum were honorable.  He knew that there was something very wrong regarding the happenings encompassing the trap/cage.  However ... at some point Kyle backtracked ... had second thoughts.  The motivation ... only Kyle knows.

Janet

+++++++

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December ... 

Some exerts:

Quote:
I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.

Quote:
I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this). Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place. It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman - March 20 2008:  My intentions here at this forum weren't to just spew out all that I know. My intentions were to get a few trusted close people informed, armed, and organized. Then, once organized get a hold of Beth and present things in a controlled private and safe manner. THEN come up with a plan to procede that is well thought-out.

Kyle Kingman - March 20 2008:  Since I got the go ahead from Tim, we can legally move forward. The document should follow-up the screen shots and trap content description. We can sent the document after the initial dialog. I trust then she will be interested in the document.

The contents of the document should be discussed and agreed upon by the birds. Since I'm new here, I should take a back seat to this IMO. I would think it would be a case synthesis which culminates with the trap contents and lack of interest and motivation to fully process the site. Perhaps Beth will then use the document to create the proper motivation using the information to apply political pressure from both sides. The problem I ran into earlier with the FBI was that their hands are tied to do anything unless they're invited to the party. I think political pressure properly applied will ensure an invite to the party. Thoughts?

Title - perhaps "Case Synthesis and Search Results", or something to that effect.

jen3560 - Scared Monkeys

[Tamikosmom]

Casa
Re: To Scared Monkeys...
« Reply #403 on: May 02, 2010, 09:08:49 PM »

Janet,

.... We were banned from SM with no respect because we supported Natalee's family and not Kermit!

By the way, Janet, we have our reasons for NOT believing Kermit.  We just did not pluck it out of the air. ...

http://goldmonkey.org/

______


Casa

For me ... Kermit was the messenger ... not the focus.  Kyle Kingman's own words were where it was at.  Either Kyle was lying or he was revealing the truth regarding the John Silvetti betrayal of Natalee Holloway and her family.

You chose not to believe Kyle Kingman.  What has that got to do with Kermit.

Casa and Mum ... do you really believe that I would be keeping on with my Persistence mission and what I perceive as related distractions from the cage/trap without credible encouragement?

Janet

++++++


casa
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09
« Reply #450 on: January 17, 2009, 03:25:36 AM »

My main problem with Kyle is that I think he enjoyed the attention he got from posting on the forums.  I think he was willing to post whatever made him seem important.  That is why I have a problem with what he posted.  I'm not so sure that any of it is factual.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4371.msg630801#msg630801


casa
Re: Monkey Musings Daily Open Discussion #14 2/2 -
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2009, 06:56:41 PM »

.... I have not doubted the quotes that are attributed to Kyle and I remember reading much of that when he orginally posted some here. ....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4475.msg657748#msg657748

[Tamikosmom]

Credit where credit is due ... Kyle Kingman did attempt to make a stand for Natalee and her family when he challenged John Silvetti, Hans Mos and Dolph Richards in regards to the handling of the trap and its contents.

++++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

[Tamikosmom]

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #735 2/24 -
« Reply #830 on: February 27, 2008, 04:37:16 PM »

The truest posts I have made on this site, posts not made out of anger, resentment, or frustrations are the ones when I have stated that to me Joran seems to be begging for help, pleading to be allowed to confess, only to have his pleas ignored by his parents and his confessions recanted by them.That I think the most inhumane treatment I have seen done by parents is the fact that Anita and Paulus keep this charade up for their own personal needs, irregardless of the needs of Joran. There are worse fates than going to jail. In jail Joran could easily meet a man of the Lord and reconnect himself. In jail Joran could be assured of having a second chance. The court of public opinion is much harsher, and does not grant second chances. Plus we have already seen him applying to join the mob while he is out a free man, and goodness knows where that would have led. And you know, if he admitted, truthfully, accepted his punishment, I know Beth and her Mom pretty well, and it is not inconceivable that they could come to forgive him, but right now their only course of action is to keep the glare of public opinion focused on him, as they want answers. And to tell you the truth, if public opinion can break Joran, and get the answers, then maybe he will be weak enough to turn towards the Lord and be saved. They certainly don't think Joran isn't worthy of the love of the Lord or that Joran isn't a child of the Lord. But they don't feel that Joran is currently looking to the Lord for answers.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.msg356333;topicseen#msg356333

[Tamikosmom]

There was a short period in time when SS was a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words in regards to a John Silvetti betrayal to Natalee Holloway and her family?  She had it figured out perfectly.

She went from unwavering support of CAPS and ... challenging anyone who dared question the actions or the motives of the Persistence endeavor ... to a full comprehension that CAPS was placed on the SM forum to distract from the happenings encompassing the trap/cage.

However ... inquiring minds do want to know what/who persuaded SS to backtracked from her new found awareness and return to her orginal position of support in regards to CAPS and John Silvetti.  Why did SS not share her motivation with the SM forum?

+++++++++


SS - NOVEMBER/DECEMBER, 2008

SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
on: November 17, 2008, 08:32:15 PM  

Monkeys - Kyle said that he discovered the trap on the screen very early Christmas morning.  That's when Tim said  "it looks like a skull".  The contents of the trap were cleaned on January 7th.  Persistence continued to use side scan sonor to map the ocean floor well into February.  Now how could they justify all of those extra weeks of searching for a missing American woman if they had already found her in the beginning of January?  They also needed to get our focus off of Persistence and the ocean search.  Viola!  Caps enters the picture to tell us about Manserat Pond.  The picture of the cage was never supposed to be released and I'm sure that caused big trouble.  All of the evidence disappeared.  The fabric sent to Quantico wasn't Natalee's blouse.  There wasn't anything else in the cage - it was just a coconut or a piece of coral.  Back to the ocean search for Peristence so that they could continue with the grids and their non profit search.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546635#msg546635


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #156 on: December 04, 2008, 02:08:35 AM »

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.

2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.

3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.

4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.

5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.

6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg565794;topicseen#msg565794


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #310 on: November 17, 2008, 11:53:15 PM »

Jossy and John are friends.  John went to Aruba in March to attend a Mansur wedding.

Has anyone thought about the possibility that the Mansurs own the mineral rights on the ocean floor?  They own 80% of the island.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they own the mineral rights under the ocean shelf.  Translated that means whoever owns the mineral rights makes money off of every barrel of oil that is brought to the surface and John Silvetti had just finished the geological survey to determine where to place the off shore wells.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546590#msg546590


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #322 on: November 18, 2008, 12:22:13 AM »

Oil in that area of the Carribbean is touchy because of Chavez.  He owns everything.  The US needs allys with oil.  Is that why they have been easy on Aruba?  They didn't want the world to know that they planning off shore exploration and drilling.  Another factor was probably money.  Geological exploration is expensive.  Silvetti's company was just about bankrupt.  Wouldn't it be nice to have all of those mapping expenses written off because it was done for the purpose of searching for the body of a missing American woman.  Their survey was done for a nonprofit organization.  How magnanimous.  Crappy Island will be a boom town if they drill for oil and find it and the Mansurs will greatly increase their fortune.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.320


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #726 on: December 06, 2008, 04:23:52 PM »

I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569218#msg569218


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #697 on: December 06, 2008, 03:26:15 PM »

Blue Moon - great reference!  I have pretty much been a believer that Natalee was buried on land, but after Kyle's calculations, I don't think so anymore.  Kyle is a trained oceanographer and he has been taught how to make those calculations of objects on the ocean floor.  Kyle's calculations are actually the first piece of scientific data that we have after three and a half years.  I wonder if it would be too much of a stretch to hope that the release of the cage photographs somehow has forced Rudy's hand???  They can't deny any longer that something was in the cage.  There are photographs to prove the lie.  Whether or not they have destroyed the actual cage contents remains to be seen.  If the evidence has been destroyed, Richardson and Mos could also be in trouble along with Paulass and Uncle Jan.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569178#msg569178


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #702 on: December 06, 2008, 03:41:17 PM »

Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569184#msg569184


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #678 on: December 06, 2008, 01:52:46 PM »

I don't think anything would surprise me at this point.  This story is getting sicker by the day.  How could they just hand all of that evidence over to ALE and deny that they had found anything???  And, sit silently by when our FBI was sent a piece of nothing?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569137#msg569137
__________


Dialogue - SS and Tamikosmom:


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #755 on: November 24, 2008, 10:13:44 PM »

I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556201#msg556201
 

Tamikosmom
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #774 on: November 24, 2008, 10:39:01 PM »

I wish Kyle would respond to these allegations.

Thanks SS.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556243#msg556243


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #784 on: November 24, 2008, 10:46:48 PM »

Dinners over... I ate my crow and it didn't very good at all.  I am so sorry for going at you.  I was so convinced that everything and everyone involved with Perisistence were above reproach.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556257;topicseen#msg556257

;topicseen#msg556257

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that up to some point in time Kyle Kingman sincerely desired to do the right thing in regards to the troubling happenings he observed while on board the Persistence encompassing the trap and its contents.  His motivation for backtracking ... only Kyle knows.

Speculation:

1.  Threatening lawsuit by Silvetti/Schaefer
2.  Future career opportunities at risk.
3.  Potential windfall from Networks.

++++

jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2009, 02:24:25 PM »

I do truly believe that Kyle found himself between a rock and a hard place - and wanted to do the right thing.

I think it was May or June that Kyle went to Louisiana to see Silvetti - and wound up finding himself in between a bigger rock and a hard place after that meeting.  Kyle came back from Louisiana and began dodging questions and essentially making himself scarce.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4371.msg626144#msg626144

[Tamikosmom]

When you consider the reputation of John Silvetti and the credibility of the Persistence endeavor were in the balance .... I cannot comprehend Beth Holloway affording the Natalee's Freebirds permission to release Kyle Kingman's posts if she did not believe with all her heart that the words within those posts revealed the truth.

+++++

klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

<snipped>

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly. At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.

<snipped>

At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.

Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.
 
Regards,
 
Former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator

Natalee and her family deserve justice - and we will not let up until they have it!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349


jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #486 on: December 30, 2008, 08:37:05 PM »

<snipped>

Kermit did the right thing by making this information public at Beth Holloway's request (albeit 2 months after she asked us to do so thanks to the need to avoid litigation).

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603594;topicseen#msg603594

[Tamikosmom]

It makes perfect sense if Beth Holloway objected to the 1 1/2 year discussion regarding a perceived Persistence betrayal encompassing the trap and it's contents ... she could have put a stop to it at any time with one phone call to Red.

Ree and Jen said it best in the following dialogue

++++++

Ree
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #927 on: December 31, 2008, 08:25:46 AM »

I'm just a lurker here most of the time and I don't know anybody.  I do however, notice that the same 3 or 4 posters show up at the same time to bash Kermie and/or defend Kyle or Caps.  Kyle and Caps are big boys who can take up for themselves, if they feel the need.  As far as Kermie, cutting and pasting and sharing emails, maybe if some of these people had been willing to share with everybody, none of this would have been necessary.  If what was going on was dangerous to the investigation, all the truly vested parties know how to contact Red and tell us to shut up.  Personally, I'm rather tired of the distraction created everytime these few show up to disrupt.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg604840#msg604840


jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #929 on: December 31, 2008, 12:29:58 PM »

Very good points, Ree.

Not only do the vested parties know how to contact Red - they also know how to contact Freebirds.

No one EVER told Freebirds to not publish the images and Kyle's concerns and facts about that trap and its contents.

Quite the contrary, in fact.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg604845#msg604845

yw bbl

[Tamikosmom]

Using Kyle Kingman's own words as a foundation for my speculation ... the Persistence did not discover the trap/cage by accident ... the ship was directed to the location.

++++++

The Detective - The Brother

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:[/b]  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case.

Kyle Kingman:  The detective¢s brother gave what he thought were coordinates, but turned out to be a line of latitude. This latitude aligned with Arashi beach and came within a half mile of the fish trap.

Kyle Kingman:  I think he used his brother and gave us only the amount of information he felt we needed to come across the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  IF a key detective's brother knew the latitude the trap was disposed at or very near, then it's probable the detective knew the same.

Kyle Kingman:  Since the trap was only in 90ft of water and the detective knew about the latitude, did the Polis already know if it's location prior to the search?

Kyle Kingman:  The implications of this are tremendous. If true, it means that the early investigators knew where and how Natalee was disposed and it was kept secret and covered up.


December 25, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents.

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim (Miller) believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave (Holloway) that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.


December 30, 2007

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, (Dolph) Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division.

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  (Dolph) Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.
 
Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.


January 7, 2008

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman: They (divers) were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.