THE PERSISTENCE - THE TRAP (DOCUMENT)

[Tamikosmom]

TIM MILLER

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he (Tim Miller) was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:   Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net

[Tamikosmom]

In my opinion Tim Miller IS an American Hero! Pure and simple. Sometimes outsiders can try to blur the effort by questioning the means...But we all know Tim Miller's heart is always on the line for the victim first....

I still believe that IF Tim was somehow compromised during the efforts surrounding the persistence search for Natalee.....It wasn't his choice.....But we all have to play the cards that are dealt and live to play another day....(don't know if this makes sense) But Tim Miller IS an American HERO!

billb

I realize you have left the forum but ... I have been thinking about your words and ... prior to packing it in for the night ... I felt compelled to share with you what is on my heart.

My sincere desire is to be in the same place as you in regards to Tim Miller.  However ... I know beyond a doubt ... if Natalee Holloway were my daughter ... I would consider Tim Miller's ongoing relationship with John Silvetti a betrayal to both my daughter and me.

This is why I find it so difficult to move on and ... appreciate all the good Tim Miller may be accomplishing for other missing persons ... all the good he may be accomplishing with the assistance of John Silvetti ... John Silvetti who afforded the Aruban enemy unchallenged possession of what may have been Natalee Holloway's remains.  If I embraced Tim Miller ... I feel I am betraying Natalee and her mother.

Janet 

++++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me

Kyle Kingman:   On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

Kyle Kingman:  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he (Tim Miller) was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  This occurred on Dec 30th when the Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present). After the Dec 30th dive John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability.  I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee. Although likely true ...

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kyle Kingman:   Tim Miller was never on the Persistence while I was not on board.  He stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle Kingman: We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap.

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net

[Tamikosmom]

It is the expectation of Monkeys that Kyle Kingman does right anf reveals all that he observed and heard while on board the Persistence ... all that he observed and heard that appeared to further the Aruban cover up that has prevented justice from prevailing for Natalee Holloway since May 30, 2005.

Why is Tim Miller exempt from that same expectation?

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

KYLE KINGMAN

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line.

Kyle Kingman:  Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items.  The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman:  John is not a believer in the trap.  He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further.  He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship ...

Kyle Kingman: The logs are in a safe somewhere. John and Ryan Poff (one of John's project managers) knows where it is. I can't get copies of the logs at this time. Perhaps in a few months. The target locations are in the safe, although I also have them in a safe spot.  I don't care about the other targets though. I don't think any of it is of any potential interest. Mainly junk, coral, and debris.

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net


TIM TRAHAN

Holloway searchers need help
Thursday, February 28, 2008 | 8:21 PM

A relentless search Schafer and his team say will stop, if they don't get more funding.

"And we all feel, I'm speaking from everybody on the team, that she's in one of the targets we have not looked at yet," Tim Trahan of Underwater Expeditions said. "We can't stop. I go to sleep at night thinking we've located it, we just need to get to it."

The search of the rest of those targets will stop this week. For more information on how you can help,

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5988951


BETH HOLLOWAY

Dr. Phil - January 29, 2006

... If somebody presents you with false hope and false information, it's devastating.

http://www.drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/3041/?id=?id=&slide=3&null=null

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:   Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.

-he was the one briefing the ALE divers on how to handle the site
-he was the one who handled all the evidence that came out of the water
-he was the one who admits to personally sending the fabric sample to the FBI for testing (although it got to the FBI two weeks after he said he sent it).


Kyle Kingman: Whether or not the trap we found was a match to the one stolen at the huts is almost irrelevant because the Polis have more connections to get what they need and have a PERFECT boat to transport it. The Polis boat is certainly large enough to hold the trap either in front of its consol or behind it, capable of running right to the beach at Arashi, and plenty powerful. Also, it is often seen cruising the beach and no one would ever look twice at it as doing something unusual. It’s also very capable at running night operations, has a depth sounder, GPS, compass, lights, dive ladder, etc


Kyle Kingman: One of the Polis divers told me that he thought we were in really deep water and that he was suprised how shallow it was. Also, another said "we're pretty far out here" when we were on site. I don't think the water depth proves or disproves anything. The ALE-provided latitude was very close to the trap. The trap was right on the edge of a drop off where it goes to 700-800ft of water very quickly, just to the south! They easily could have figured they were slightly south in very deep water when they tossed the trap. Further out in this case wasn't the solution. It was just as deep farther out and to the north/northwest. It got deeper to the south, not farther out.

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net


 

[Tamikosmom]

When the date of Robin Holloway's post is considered and the date that the FBI received the samples taken from the trap ... what are the implication of her words?

Janet

+++++++

Hotshot
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #714 1/20 -
« Reply #446 on: January 23, 2008, 06:04:23 PM »

Today at 2:34pm, Reality wrote:
Without going into detail, there has been nothing found regarding Natalee other than some Coral and Debris, I'm sure Robin will explain."

Today at 2:38pm by Robin
If the prosecutors office has evidence relating to Natalee we would have known about it. The crew on the Persistence is working very hard to try, but still nothing of her. They did have something tested that didn't turn out to be anything to do with Natalee but it has been a few weeks ago.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2532.msg331495#msg331495

++++++++++

FBI ANALYSIS

Press release

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2008

Pages 1

Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.

The Prosecutors’ Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel “Persistence” that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse.  The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.

[Keepthefaith]

When the date of Robin Holloway's post is considered and the date that the FBI received the samples taken from the trap ... what are the implication of her words?

Janet

+++++++

Hotshot
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #714 1/20 -
« Reply #446 on: January 23, 2008, 06:04:23 PM »

Today at 2:34pm, Reality wrote:
Without going into detail, there has been nothing found regarding Natalee other than some Coral and Debris, I'm sure Robin will explain."

Today at 2:38pm by Robin
If the prosecutors office has evidence relating to Natalee we would have known about it. The crew on the Persistence is working very hard to try, but still nothing of her. They did have something tested that didn't turn out to be anything to do with Natalee but it has been a few weeks ago.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2532.msg331495#msg331495

++++++++++

FBI ANALYSIS

Press release

Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad
Aruba

To All media
From The Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 26, 2008

Pages 1

Cloth found in crab trap not a match with sample of blouse Holloway, according to FBI Laboratory.

The Prosecutors’ Office of Aruba has received the results of the comparison tests done by the FBI Laboratory in the United States of America on clothing, cloth or a textile of some type recovered in January 2008 by an Aruban dive team inside a crab trap in about 90 feet of water, off the coast of Aruba. The Aruban dive team was directed to the crab trap by the crew of the vessel “Persistence” that is conducting a sea search looking for the body of Natalee Holloway. The Persistence is searching for a crab trap based on the story that the body of Natalee Holloway was disposed of and placed in a similar device.

The Aruban Police requested the FBI Laboratory to process the cloth, because the Laboratory already had a sample of the exact match of the type of material of Natalee Holloway’s blouse.  The FBI Laboratory received that material on the 22nd of January 2008.

On the 25th of February 2008, the Prosecutors’ Office received the official report from the FBI Laboratory that showed that the two materials were not a match.

The FBI didn't recieve the sample until the 22nd of Jan.Robin & Reality post the next day the results of the sampling?How can that be?

[Tamikosmom]

THE DOLF RICHARDSON - PERSISTENCE CONNECTION

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:   Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.

-he was the one briefing the ALE divers on how to handle the site
-he was the one who handled all the evidence that came out of the water
-he was the one who admits to personally sending the fabric sample to the FBI for testing (although it got to the FBI two weeks after he said he sent it).

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan. We discussed ahead of time 1 thumb up means positively human remains, 2 thumbs up... something conclusively identifying Natalee. When Tim T. gives one thumb down, he said that it was inconclusive.

Kyle Kingman: Mr. Red shirt came on the Persistence along with Dolf, Mos, et al for the meeting on the 30th."

Kyle Kingman: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp and blue fabric was confirmed by Richardson and Mos. Remember, they each only confirmed one piece. One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp. From the video you see both

Kyle Kingman:   The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kyle Kingman: Jan 12-13 I saw the Dutch Coast Guard on site for 45 minutes on both days.  I told John about the Coast Guard on site and he didn't want to hear it. However, he must have thought about it and after chewing on it agreed because he spoke to Mos and Richardson about it later. I believe it was Richardson came back to him and said nothing other than they don't have dive capabilities.

Kyle Kingman:  Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean".

Kyle Kingman:  Remember it was Richardson who said to us that he personally handled the evidence and sent it immediately to our FBI)

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net


ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December …

Kyle Kingman: I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

[Tamikosmom]

The following words of Kyle Kingman convince me that the contents of the cage/trap were test prior to Richardson sending the samplings to the FBI on January 22, 2008.

Janet

+++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: "10 days before the announcement of the DeVries tapes I met Mos downtown in public"

During this time, I was eagerly waiting for results from the Jan-7th trap samples. I expected him to know something by then. When we met, he asked me how I was doing and he said that he was suprised that I was still in Aruba. After some small talk back and forth, he asked when I was leaving. I flipped the question around on him, asking, "Hans, you tell me. When am I going home?" With that, he hesitated. It was clear to me that he knew something big that we didn't. I picked up on this and looked right into his eyes and asked him "Hans, between you and I, when will my family see me again?" He looked around for anyone watching or listening, leaned forward and said into my ear: "ten days". He then turned and walked away without saying another word.

I had no idea what 10 days meant at the time, but it meant something big was going to happen. I had assumed it related to the trap and it's contents, but couldn't prove anything. Well, 10 days later the announcement was made about the existence of the land rover tapes. I was really confused and didn't know what to feel. I honestly was a little dissapointed that the 10 days was about the confession tapes.

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net

[Tamikosmom]

John Silvetti, Kyle Kingman and Tim Trahan

I lost hope a long time ago that there would ever be justice for Natalee Holloway coming out of Aruba but ... all of you are Americans.  How could you betray Natalee Holloway ... one of your own?  Considering you are parents ... how can you be so heartless in regards to the ongoing  emotional suffering of Natalee's parents.  Just put yourselves in their place?

Janet

++++++

'The Abrams Report' - July. 6, 2005

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER:  We cannot forget to demand and expect to have Natalee.  Natalee deserves to return to her country.  She deserves it, and everyone knows it, Martin, every single person.  Every single person knows that.  They know it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8485029/

[Tamikosmom]

Considering I am a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words regarding the dynamics encompassing the Peristence betrayal ... I contend that there may be be evidence that Natalee Holloway's remains were recovered from the trap/cage on January 7, 2008.

In my opinion ... only the intentional diverting of attention from  Kyle Kingman's own words will imply there is no evidence to prove that Natalee Holloway is dead.

Considering the words of the ROV analyst on board the Persistence ... if a judge in a civil lawsuit (Beth Holloway) or a judge in criminal lawsuit (FBI) ruled in an American court that the "entire" ROV footage was to be turned over to the court appointed ROV analysts ... the outcome may reveal that Natalee Holloway is indeed dead.

Janet

+++++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7thwe sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF

Kyle Kingman:  Well, it's all going to happen. The big card will soon be played.  I just had a secret meeting with Tim Trahan and by proxy, Louis Shafer.  Tomorrow, Tim Trahan will get in touch with Beth Holloway in regards to the trap footage and missing evidence. We're getting geared up to play the conspiracy cover-up card on Aruba and force the bogus investigation out into the open. We believe the trap footage may be the missing piece which will raise a BIG question in the minds of the public everywhere.  We're in the process of figuring out how to produce and spin the story most accurately and most effectively. Also, and completely independant and unrelated, John will be in Aruba tomorrow and will report soon. This is a different issue. He knows nothing of what we're about to do with the footage.

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net

[Tamikosmom]

It's possible that a strand of hair would give them the DNA and from what I understand, from what we know about that particular item, it lends to the body disposal in the ocean.  From a piece of hair they can still determine a lot of things from my understanding.

Kermit ... that is my understanding too.  IF there were DNA evidence to prove that Natalee Holloway's remains had been recovered by the Aruban divers ... this would be huge but ... why the silence from Beth Holloway in the past almost two years.

However ... considering I do not believe for a minute that Beth would withhold this DNA info from her ex-husband ... from Natalee's father ... there would be the hard questions?

1.  Why would Dave Holloway involved in the witness/pond search?

2.  Why would Dave Holloway in 2008 be assisting John Silvetti in raising "Tourism Association" funds to continue the search in Aruban waters for his daughter's remains?

3.  Why would Dave Holloway ... according to his friend Debbie (BFN) in June, 2009 ...  be attempting to raise runds for the continuation of the search?

Personally ... when the actions of Dave Holloway are considered ... I find it hard to believe that there was any DNA evidence recovered from the trap/cage and hand over to Beth Holloway ... DNA evidence with a connection to Natalee Holloway ... DNA evidence that was revealed to either of Natalee's parents..

Put a mark on the calender Monkeys.  I am being an advocate for Dave Holloway in regards to this issue.

IMO

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

IS THERE NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE RELATED DNA IN THE POSSESSION OF THE FBI?

This is huge!

Janet

++++++++

I am going to re-post this part just for clarity.

AND keep in mind that WE KNOW of another item turned over to the FBI that the Arubans have never mentioned. But we know from Beth that this item is important and goes with the disposal at sea!!!!!!!

Most likely DNA on it.

I was thinking the item Beth said that the FBI was in possession of that was clearly from the cage/trap area.

It's possible that a strand of hair would give them the DNA and from what I understand, from what we know about that particular item, it lends to the body disposal in the ocean.  From a piece of hair they can still determine a lot of things from my understanding.

[Tamikosmom]

IF the FBI is in possession of DNA evidence related to the cage/trap ... Natalee Holloway's DNA ...  what are the implication in regards to the activity encompassing another search in Aruban waters?

Somethng does not make sense.

Janet

++++++

1.  February, 2008 - Kyle Kingman is solicitating funds toward the continuation of the search and ... those funds are designated to TES.

2.  April, 2008 - John Silvetti reveals that Dave Holloway put him touch with the head of the tourist Association in regards to a "sizable" donation to assist in the costs associated with continuing the search.

3.  July, 2008 - Steve Holloway ... Dave's brother ... reveals in his comment on SM Front Page that Dave intends to continue the search.

4.  March, 2009 - Tim Miller claims in a NBC.13 interview that there were still 270 targets to search.

5.  June, 2009 - Tim Miller reveals to Dana Pretzer that it is his intention to return to Aruba in regards to the targets that had yet been investigated.

6.  June, 2009 - Debbie (BFN) claims that Dave is working with Tim Miller, John Silvetti and Louis Schaefer in the raising of funds to continue the search in Aruban waters.

______


Dr. Phil Attorneys Use Scared Monkeys Natalee Holloway Posts as Exhibit in Court Docs Against Deepak & Satish Kalpoes

Comments:

61.  Steve Holloway on July 14th, 2008 9:07 am

I want every body to know that Dave still wants the water search to continue. Their are over 170 targets that have to be looked at.

The fund raiser needs to start soon. An idea I talked with him about is maybe a ebay auction. A large picture of Natalee would go to the highest bidder with all funds going toward this boat search. There could be different auctions spaced out with different picture’s. I just talked with him about this idea, so its not a done deal.

God Bless

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/07/12/dr-phil-attorneys-use-scared-monkeys-natalee-holloway-posts-as-exhibit-in-court-docs-against-deepak-satish-kalpoes/

[Tamikosmom]

All links/quotes related to the above timeline provided upon request.  No problem.

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Hi Snoppy.  How is your "real" Snoopy?

This afternoon ... I have been discussing this topic with an email friend and ... he is kinda confused.

Kyle Kingman states in his own words that the tarp was outside the trap/cage.  Could it be that this may be what Beth was referring to when she implies that FBI is in possession of evidence recovered from "in the area" of the trap/cage?

Nevertheless ... that does not explain DNA.  It is highly unlikely that Dolphi Richardson or Hans Mos would send the FBI any samples containing DNA evidence related to Natalee Holloway.

According to Robin Holloway ... the recovered samples were tested prior to being sent to the FBI.  She knew of the negative results per the Arubans at the getgo.

Maybe Kermit could clarify.

Janet

+++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »

Video 3: Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap. The trap was not recovered. Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis. Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5922.msg971335;topicseen#msg971335

 
Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp and blue fabric was confirmed by Richardson and Mos. Remember, they each only confirmed one piece. One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp. From the video you see both.

Kyle Kingman:  Remember it was Richardson who said to us that he personally handled the evidence and sent it immediately to our FBI.

[Tamikosmom]

THE TARP?

The open door of the trap/cage could account for the tarp being outside the trap/cage.

Janet

++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

[Tamikosmom]

BONE FRAGMENTS

Maybe the item Beth is referring to that was recovered in the area of the trap ... the item that is in the possession of the FBI ... is the skull or vertabrae which Kyle Kingman refers to in his own words.

Can forensic testing extract DNA from bone fragments ... bone fragments  that has been lying at the bottom of the ocean for 2 1/2 years?

Again ... I cannot comprehend Aruba sending the FBI any evidence from the trap that could possibly contain case related DNA but ...

Janet

+++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious.  Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap.

Kyle Kingman: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of vertebrae.

Kyle Kingman:  As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI: The contents of the trap were being actively investigated. The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample. Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case. The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

[Tamikosmom]

IS THERE NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE RELATED DNA IN THE POSSESSION OF THE FBI?

This is huge!

Janet

++++++++

I am going to re-post this part just for clarity.

AND keep in mind that WE KNOW of another item turned over to the FBI that the Arubans have never mentioned. But we know from Beth that this item is important and goes with the disposal at sea!!!!!!!

Most likely DNA on it.

I was thinking the item Beth said that the FBI was in possession of that was clearly from the cage/trap area.

It's possible that a strand of hair would give them the DNA and from what I understand, from what we know about that particular item, it lends to the body disposal in the ocean.  From a piece of hair they can still determine a lot of things from my understanding.

IF the FBI are in possession of DNA evidence ...  DNA evidence shared with them by the Arubans ... DNA evidence related to the trap/cage ... DNA evidence that is Natalee Holloway case related ... the implication is that Aruban either slipped up or ... Aruba is on the side of justice for Natalee Holloway.

Considering I gave up hope long ago that Aruba would never knowingly give up the truth encompassing the disappearance of Natalee Holloway ... if the FBI was sent case related DNA taken from the area of the trap/cage and ... considering Aruba has never in the past afforded the FBI any  involvment ... my choice is that Aruba slipped up.

IMO

Janet

+++++

FBI INVOVLEMENT

Aruba PM: Give FBI documents on missing teen U.S. agency has been assisting in investigation but without access to papers
Associated Press July 22, Updated: 8:58 p.m. ET July 22, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba - Aruba’s prime minister has urged investigators to give the FBI all documents related to the disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, according to a letter released late Friday.

Prime Minister Nelson Oduber asked in the letter to Attorney General Karin Janssen that the bureau be allowed “complete access to the dossier, including transcripts, audio tapes or video registration of interrogations, plus all materials that are connected to this case, in as much as our judicial system allows.”

FBI agents have been advising Aruban authorities in the 6-week-old investigation but have not had access to case records, said government spokesman Ruben Trapenberg.

FBI spokeswoman Judy Orihuela said the FBI has pressed for access to the documents.

Trapenberg said Janssen had not yet responded to the government’s request. The attorney general could not immediately be reached for comment Friday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8672318/


Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway

Page 184:   Then FBI agent Bill comes by and delivers the final blow. "The FBI has never received one single document from the Arubans. Not one tape. Nothing." he says sadly. Depite our personal pleas to authorities here and our broadcast appeals to Aruba to let the FBI lend a hand, and regardless of Aruba's public response that it would welcome FBI assistance, the island never let FBI agents in on the investigation. Never passed them the ball. Not even for one minute.


Nancy Grace - September 28, 2005

BETH TWITTY: You know, Nancy, I really don`t know, you know, as this case has gone and how frustrating it`s been and how little information we`re allowed to get, and even now, with the FBI not even able to receive a single piece of evidence. So we`ll just have to try.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/28/ng.01.html


Nancy Grace - September 28, 2005

HARRIS FAULKNER, "A CURRENT AFFAIR": Well, you know, Nancy, the biggest news so far has been our exclusive interview with Joran Van Der Sloot, and that is something that Natalee`s mom had said all along that she wanted to see words from Joran. So as soon as we got that tape, we showed it to Beth. And you know, I have to say, in the watching it -- and I know you guys here have watched it on your show -- there are so many nuances in that tape and so many things that pop up that Beth then reacted to that gave us new information.

For instance, I never knew until talking with Beth this week that the FBI was never given a single document, audio or visual, in this case. And now we`ve confirmed that, and I know you have done so, too. All along, we had thought this summer, you know, maybe they were being held at bay because of Dutch or Aruban law. And then we saw the Aruban prime minister about a month ago come out and say, FBI, come on in, inviting them in, I thought in a more substantive manner. Maybe we all thought that, too. But when Beth told me, sure, there was a Dutch official who flew from Holland all the way to Quantico to share information, but didn`t leave a single thing in the hands of the FBI.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/28/ng.01.html


Defense attorneys want FBI out of Aruba
Powered by CDNN - CYBER DIVER News Network

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (10 Aug 2005) -- Defense lawyers on Wednesday appealed a judge's ruling that Aruban authorities could share information with the FBI about missing teen Natalee Holloway.

Last week, a judge struck down a motion by the defense to prohibit file sharing with the American law enforcement agency, which is acting in an advisory role in the high-profile case.

"It's not a question of having something to hide but about the legality of their (FBI) involvement," said defense lawyer David Kock.

Kock, one of three lawyers who argued the appeal Wednesday in a closed court session, said a decision was expected Monday.

FBI agents have been on the Dutch Caribbean island as observers since Holloway disappeared May 30. They were granted access to material last month at the urging of the Aruban prime minister.

Lawyers for Joran van der Sloot, a Dutch teenager who has been detained in the disappearance, and two Surinamese brothers have argued the FBI didn't have jurisdiction and shouldn't have access to the investigation.

http://www.cdnn.info/news/travel/t050810a.html


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman: The FBI told me they could not send a representative down to us in Aruba unless they were specifically invited to do so by the Aruban authorities. They were simply uninvited

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net

[Tamikosmom]

According to Kyle Kingman's own words ... the Arubans had attempted to pass off the contents of the trap/cage not case related following the December 30, 2007 visual dive.  It was only at the insistence of Kyle ... that a recovery dive took place.

Janet

+++++


Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  We had an American diver with us on the Dec 30th dive.  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman:  For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat

Kermit - scaredmonkeys.net