Natalee Case Discussion #806 3/9/09 - 3/12/09

[Anna]

Anna - you are correct, they list the Barcadera port as being a "public" transaction.

To my understanding, that also means that details of the transaction should be made public.

But..............who knows?

I surely don't but it should be.  And if it were to be made public, it would likely be on the internet because of international companies being involved and yet it well may not be since those interested in the oil are "secret" which is strange for public authorities.  Not usually tolerated by the taxpayers.

[nuntukamen]

here's a very interesting post about the use of GHB and ectasy within a rape gang operating out of the netherlands, the fact they are a gay group of rapists isn't a point--its that this demonstrates the proclivity to use these drugs by groups to get what they want when it isn't available through traditional means, like dating, and that those in authority are afraid is a developing aspect of the culture itself

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21831375-1702,00.html

joran should have joined this group; they are right up his alley...or right up something, anyway

[Anna]

[hotping]

http://www.mtbs.nl/assignment/transaction_advisor_barcadera_port

Transaction Advisor Barcadera Port
Netherlands Antilles
2008-2009
mtbs was hired as a transaction advisor by the Ministry of Tourism and Transportation of Aruba to assist the Aruba government by implementing 4 port related investments. The investments concerned a cruise and container terminal, real estate and a free zone. Legal and PPP advise was provided and several strategic scenario's were developed of which the financial feasibility was assessed.
In the second phase mtbs is responsible for implementing the transaction through a competitive tender process.
Attached Images

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that John Silvetti is implying that Kyle Kingman is inexperienced.

Think about it.  John Silvetti embarks on a huge undertaking in an attempt to locate the remains of Natalee Holloway and ... takes on board an inexperienced ROV operator and analyst by the name of Kyle Kingman to assist in the task.

 

GMAB!

Janet

++++++

jdsurveyor1 Newbie Posts: 11
John Silvetti, the Persistence and the Search for Natalee «
Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »

The important thing is to raise funds. It will require corporate support as well as private donations. Dave and Beth have been doing a great job getting the word out and while I was on the island, Dave put me in contact with the head of the Hotel Association who is working on raising a sizeable amount.  So many on the island are supporting our efforts as well as people from all over the world. The media really blew the cage out of proportion. Although the cage initially provided some moments of "what is in there", I warned all on board that none of this information was to leave the boat. It was very suspect that a cage of this size was found where it was on the seafloor relative to the coast. My feelings were this was highly unusual and probably had something to do with something, but not what we were after. It was decided that the cage would be investigated further by divers, however, it was designated as only a target of interest. The crew moved onto other targets. Unfortunately, inexperience and frustration led to premature statements, including that we had found herI don't think anyone was more upset than I that this information came off the boat and caused the Holloway family more grief!

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg334979#msg334979


Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick

Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:
Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

[Anna]

It appears that John Silvetti is implying that Kyle Kingman is inexperienced.

Think about it.  John Silvetti embarks on a huge undertaking in an attempt to locate the remains of Natalee Holloway and ... takes on board an inexperienced ROV operator and analyst by the name of Kyle Kingman to assist in the task.

 

GMAB!

Janet

++++++

jdsurveyor1 Newbie Posts: 11
John Silvetti, the Persistence and the Search for Natalee «
Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »

The important thing is to raise funds. It will require corporate support as well as private donations. Dave and Beth have been doing a great job getting the word out and while I was on the island, Dave put me in contact with the head of the Hotel Association who is working on raising a sizeable amount.  So many on the island are supporting our efforts as well as people from all over the world. The media really blew the cage out of proportion. Although the cage initially provided some moments of "what is in there", I warned all on board that none of this information was to leave the boat. It was very suspect that a cage of this size was found where it was on the seafloor relative to the coast. My feelings were this was highly unusual and probably had something to do with something, but not what we were after. It was decided that the cage would be investigated further by divers, however, it was designated as only a target of interest. The crew moved onto other targets. Unfortunately, inexperience and frustration led to premature statements, including that we had found herI don't think anyone was more upset than I that this information came off the boat and caused the Holloway family more grief!

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg334979#msg334979


Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick

Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:
Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Or is he calling Tim Miller inexperienced?  I wonder how many remains Tim Miller has located and seen versus John Silvetti?  TM was at the least there and saw the initial dive.

And when Tim "Lighttanks" Trahan gave the thumbs down sign, Tim expressed his disbelief.
.

[Tamikosmom]

Hotping ... thank you for all your research.  You are really on a roll.

 

 I am anticipating Lifesong incorporating it all into her timeline so ... I can comprehend the whole picture.

Hey ... any updates on whether or not grandson will be staying with you this coming weekend?

Janet

[Lifesong]

Jen, I think when it says the project is "public tender" it means it is tax funded.  Apparently, bids are made in secret?

Mmmmm, I'd have to look at their website again - but I believe it detailed
 the differences between a public and a private tender of project bids for competitive purposes.

I guess my thinking on that would be if a project is tax funded, it should be public bids as the taxpayers normally have the right to know how their money is being spent.

But then this is Aruba and so that may not apply.


.

Here it is Anna - tell me what you think.

http://www.mtbs.nl/assignment/transaction_advisor_barcadera_port

Netherlands Antilles
2008-2009
mtbs was hired as a transaction advisor by the Ministry of Tourism and Transportation of Aruba to assist the Aruba government by implementing 4 port related investments. The investments concerned a cruise and container terminal, real estate and a free zone. Legal and PPP advise was provided and several strategic scenario's were developed of which the financial feasibility was assessed.
In the second phase mtbs is responsible for implementing the transaction through a competitive tender process.

Well...I think this says that MTBS was hired.  That's straightforward.  And according to TM's & Hotping's link, the head of the Port Authority doesn't think Briesen has the power to just hire them.

I think it says MTBS was hired as a transaction advisor and, in phase 2, will accept bids to implement the transaction. 

Like a consultant, or a general contractor, MTBS is the project management company that will oversee the project.  Anyplace in America, MTBS would have had to bid for that consulting contract, instead it sounds like they were just hired.

[jen3560]

It appears that John Silvetti is implying that Kyle Kingman is inexperienced.

Think about it.  John Silvetti embarks on a huge undertaking in an attempt to locate the remains of Natalee Holloway and ... takes on board an inexperienced ROV operator and analyst by the name of Kyle Kingman to assist in the task.

 

GMAB!

Janet

++++++

LOL - Not to mention the "dozens" of successful projects with Silvetti Kyle has listed on his resume.

One would think if that was his opinion of Kyle, he would have figured that out after the first couple of jobs?

 

[jen3560]

Well...I think this says that MTBS was hired.  That's straightforward.  And according to TM's & Hotping's link, the head of the Port Authority doesn't think Briesen has the power to just hire them.

I think it says MTBS was hired as a transaction advisor and, in phase 2, will accept bids to implement the transaction. 

Like a consultant, or a general contractor, MTBS is the project management company that will oversee the project.  Anyplace in America, MTBS would have had to bid for that consulting contract, instead it sounds like they were just hired.

I agree - that is precisely my take on the scenario.

And with the companies already hired fort he hotel/casino/resort portion of this 4 part project - that just leaves the container and cruise ship ports to be as yet unknown as regards the awarded company (ies)

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that John Silvetti is implying that Kyle Kingman is inexperienced.

Think about it.  John Silvetti embarks on a huge undertaking in an attempt to locate the remains of Natalee Holloway and ... takes on board an inexperienced ROV operator and analyst by the name of Kyle Kingman to assist in the task.

 

GMAB!

Janet

++++++

jdsurveyor1 Newbie Posts: 11
John Silvetti, the Persistence and the Search for Natalee «
Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »

The important thing is to raise funds. It will require corporate support as well as private donations. Dave and Beth have been doing a great job getting the word out and while I was on the island, Dave put me in contact with the head of the Hotel Association who is working on raising a sizeable amount.  So many on the island are supporting our efforts as well as people from all over the world. The media really blew the cage out of proportion. Although the cage initially provided some moments of "what is in there", I warned all on board that none of this information was to leave the boat. It was very suspect that a cage of this size was found where it was on the seafloor relative to the coast. My feelings were this was highly unusual and probably had something to do with something, but not what we were after. It was decided that the cage would be investigated further by divers, however, it was designated as only a target of interest. The crew moved onto other targets. Unfortunately, inexperience and frustration led to premature statements, including that we had found herI don't think anyone was more upset than I that this information came off the boat and caused the Holloway family more grief!

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg334979#msg334979


Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick

Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:
Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Or is he calling Tim Miller inexperienced?  I wonder how many remains Tim Miller has located and seen versus John Silvetti?  TM was at the least there and saw the initial dive.

And when Tim "Lighttanks" Trahan gave the thumbs down sign, Tim expressed his disbelief.
.

Tim Miller may not be experienced at analysing ROV images but ... it is Kyle Kingman's expertise.

Anna ... the above post implies that prior to contacting Natalee Holloway's parents ... Tim M. was relying on Kyle Kingman's interpretation of the images.

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that John Silvetti is implying that Kyle Kingman is inexperienced.

Think about it.  John Silvetti embarks on a huge undertaking in an attempt to locate the remains of Natalee Holloway and ... takes on board an inexperienced ROV operator and analyst by the name of Kyle Kingman to assist in the task.

 

GMAB!

Janet

++++++

LOL - Not to mention the "dozens" of successful projects with Silvetti Kyle has listed on his resume.

One would think if that was his opinion of Kyle, he would have figured that out after the first couple of jobs?

 

Somehow ... when the projects that Kyle Kingman worked on in the summer of 2008 is considered ... word must have got around that Kyle Kingman was well qualified in his field of expertise.

Janet

++++++


The Travels and Ponderings of Kyle Kingman

Saturday, August 2, 2008
Through Skøyen Station - Norway, 12-July 2008

The North Sea is a cold, volatile beast. One moment it is tranquil and picturesque, while the next it is an explosive, churning, and bone-chilling frenzy brimming with white caps. Last night, a long low-profile work vessel was operating within a mile of our vessel.

The offshore project manager, John told me that recently 18 people drowned on that same boat when it sank.

Posted by Kyle Kingman
http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/2008/08/through-skyen-station-norway-12-july.html
http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/


Saturday, August 2, 2008
- Ulsteinvik to Cairo- 24-July
2345 hrs, Thursday July 24th – Cairo, Egypt

It’s 0200 hrs local time. Walking off the plane… “At least it’s not as hot as UAE”, I think to myself. “Please God; let my driver be waiting for me”. I was contacted about 12 hours earlier in Norway by a Dutch agent who needed me in Cairo ASAP and they were not afraid to pay a high price to get me here. All I know is there was to be a driver waiting for me. I don’t know who the client is, what the job is, what I’m doing in Egypt, or if I will even be staying in Egypt.

Posted by Kyle Kingman
http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/2008/08/ulsteinvik-to-cairo-24-july.html
http://kylekingman.blogspot.com/

[hotping]

APA NV approves Global Foods Holding's Ethanol project within the Barcadera port
 
del.icio.us Digg this
Posted on: 03/05/2007

By Rona Coster



Oranjestad – Greg Peterson, the Director of Free Zone Aruba NV reports being ecstatic about the developments. Alfonso Boekhoudt, Director of the Aruba Port Authority NV, says he is elated in view of recent breakthroughs. What makes these two pillars of the island’s economy so pleased is the final approval by the APA board of the ethanol dehydration plant within the Barcadera port.
“It proves,” says Boekhoudt with a great sense of satisfaction, “that our vision for Aruba was realistic.”

In 2005, a local company, Global Foods Holding, asked an international expert, Sergio C. Trindade, one of the most prominent experts in the world on renewable energy, especially fuel-ethanol, to conduct a feasibility study researching the establishment of an ethanol dehydration plant in the port of Barcadera.

After seriously looking at all variables, Global Foods concluded that while building the plant will have a positive impact, it must first secure a steady incoming supply of the actual ethanol, before launching its ambitious plans.

The company, in conjunction with a Brazilian partner, then set out to invest one billion US dollars in the construction of not just one but four large sugar cane mills and ethanol plants in Brazil which will secure steady incoming supply of raw material for the new Barcadera project.

If all goes well, the mills in Brazil will be operational at the end of 2008, and capable of shipping their product to Aruba by bulk carriers.
When the ethanol arrives here, it will be finished and prepared to enter consumer markets all over the world.

It will be considered a Caribbean Basin Initiative project designed to support and boost the economy of developing countries, finally allowing Aruba to participate more fully in the benefits of the global economy.
Little Aruba will then arrive on the international alternative fuel scene with an excellent, very sought-after, high-quality product.

Peterson calls this a quantum leap for the island, as Aruba will be doing business with both Brazil in South America and the USA, the European Union and the Far East, trans-shipping a whopping sixty million gallons a year. “I have been involved in this for two years,” he reveals, “and the free zone status being given to the plant in the Barcadera harbor, is very exciting news.”

Peterson reflects on the fact that Aruba has always desired to connect with Brazil, in the form of an interesting, lucrative initiative. And while the idea of doing business with South America has been around for a while, it took time to hatch. The seed of international trade was planted a number of years ago and it is now growing nicely, Peterson declares, and in ways that could not be predicted. Surely, he states, this Brazil – Aruba affiliation will beget more projects in the future. "We have finally proven the skeptics wrong", he proudly asserts.

Recently, the visiting Trindade conducted a fruitful round of talks with both Free Zone Aruba NV & APA NV. He’s met the FZA management once before, on his first visit here, for a tentative round of discussions and last week he engaged in excellent conversations with APA’s Board of Directors.

He answered all of their questions and was pleased with their warm response.
He found Alfonso Boekhoudt, APA’s General Manager, extremely helpful and enthusiastic; truly prepared to give the new free zone project blessings and backing.

During those talks, Trindade informed Aruba that the Rotterdam Harbor is also mobilizing to create a similar plant in accordance with the highest European standards in environmental matters.
Aruba’s project will draw inspirations from the Dutch blueprint and will be based on the highest safety principles, Peterson affirmed.
Overall Peterson contends that the ethanol dehydration plant is exactly the type of diversification that the free zone has been looking for. The plan represents a big change, an innovative product, which involves high tech production-lines and as such fits the objectives of the free zone’s growth aspirations.

The free zone ethanol plant represents a win-win outcome for Free Zone Aruba NV and APA NV, Peterson explains, APA will be in charge of ship movement, generating extra income and full deployment. Both the harbor and Free Zone Aruba are very happy, he concludes. Boekhoudt is of the same opinion. He states that while the investors had many options open for them in the Caribbean, they picked Aruba, which pleases him immensely because of the valuable increase in container ship traffic. “It is a huge privilege,” he says, “to be able to combine Free Zone status and harbor services, to benefit the island and its people.”

The man behind the long-term, multi-national plan are businessmen Rene Kan & Justus Martens. A number of years ago Kan & Martens created new opportunities for Aruba when under the OCT, Oversees Countries and Territories regulations, they started exporting tens of thousands of tons per year of sugar blends to the European market, becoming the Free Zone’s and the Harbor’s single biggest client, shipping containers out of Aruba.

Now again, they are launching a Caribbean Basin Initiative program, and take the lead in creating more economic activity, this time in relationship to the US.
Peterson points out that the project cleverly finds new usage for existing infrastructure, and that on an island solely reliant on tourism, diversification of the economy may hedge against possible economic downturns. “Venturing further into high tech industry,” Peterson explains, “is one of the island’s main economic goals.”

"The key to such successful projects is sincere and willing cooperation between players such as the harbor, the airport and the free zone.” In the last year and a half, Peterson reveals the relationship between these entities has improved significantly. “We see that such cooperation comes to fruition and we need more believers to get on board this moving train", Peterson asserts.

Sonny Hoo, a member of APA’s Board of Directors expresses his satisfaction with the leadership provided by Rene Kan/ Justus Martens and with the expertise offered by Trindade.
“We are very confident,” he says, “Trindade is a brilliant engineer, and Kan/Martens are proven developers, it all spells positive, compounded growth for Aruba’s economy.”
Pictured here Sergio C. Trindade, with APA NV & FZA NV executives.
As a matter of interest, Trinidade earned a PhD in chemical engineering with minors in international business and energy economics, from MIT. He designed, built and operated the first sugar hydrogenation to sorbitol plant in Latin America and later headed the international management consultancy Arthur D. Little, Inc. in Brazil. He also started the first private technology center in Brazil at PROMON, which pioneered work in new and renewable energies, especially fuel ethanol. Trindade was the United Nations Assistant Secretary-General for Science and Technology 1986-91. Since 1991, he runs a consultancy in New York, SE2T International, Ltd., and is active in sustainable development, energy, including alcohol fuels, and climate change issues. His 30 years of experience brought him to Brazil, Central America, the Caribbean, France, Indonesia, Italy, Kenya, Malawi, Mexico, Paraguay, Thailand and the USA, and he is currently involved with policies on international fuel ethanol trade in Brazil, Mexico and now also Aruba.

Kan on his part thanked the Management and Board of the Aruba Port Authority and the Aruba Freezone NV for all their time and energy, and delivered special thanks to the Government of Aruba; especially to the Prime Minister Nelson Oduber for all the support they have given the project. In a brief telephone interview, he was traveling at the time of print, Kan stated that while he is pleased with the outcome so far the project still has a long way to go: important negotiations will have to start with both APA, ASTEC and the Freezone NV on the costs involved. If Aruba is competitive, the project will be become a reality.

As a side note, Peterson also points out that besides benefiting the overall island economy the new plant may also impact the local consumer in the future. Aruban automobile and gas distributors will face the challenge of introducing the mix of gasoline and ethanol to drivers here. “If they can make it work, “Peterson declares, “It will be a cost reduction in fuel consumption and an investment opportunity for local companies.”

Read more news

http://news.visitaruba.com/news/apa-nv-approves-global-foods-holdings-ethanol-project-within-the-barcadera-port

[hotping]

Hotping ... thank you for all your research.  You are really on a roll.

 

 I am anticipating Lifesong incorporating it all into her timeline so ... I can comprehend the whole picture.

Hey ... any updates on whether or not grandson will be staying with you this coming weekend?

Janet

Thank You Janet!

We haven't figured out if My Grandson is coming here are We are going there....I kind of hope We are going there then We will get to see Both Grandsons....

 

[Edward]

Hey Nun..

Be careful what you drink in the netherlands.. Nver drink alone in the Netherlands.. 

[Tamikosmom]

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

The January 7, 2008 dive to recover the samples provided affirmation of Kyle Kingman's analysis of the December 29, 2007 ROV images.  I have no doubts that Kyle Kingman is qualified in his field of expertise.

Janet

++++++


Kyle Kingman:   I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

[Tamikosmom]

Hotping ... thank you for all your research.  You are really on a roll.

 

 I am anticipating Lifesong incorporating it all into her timeline so ... I can comprehend the whole picture.

Hey ... any updates on whether or not grandson will be staying with you this coming weekend?

Janet

Thank You Janet!

We haven't figured out if My Grandson is coming here are We are going there....I kind of hope We are going there then We will get to see Both Grandsons....

 

 

[Tamikosmom]

I am working on another document so ... I will be crawling into my own little hidey hole for about an hour and ... then this afternoon life outside the computer room beckons.

Later Monkeys

Janet
11:20 AM PT

[nuntukamen]

Hey Nun..

Be careful what you drink in the netherlands.. Nver drink alone in the Netherlands.. 

are you buying?   if joran brings the drink, i think i'll pass.

[Anna]

Hey Nun..

Be careful what you drink in the netherlands.. Nver drink alone in the Netherlands.. 

are you buying?   if joran brings the drink, i think i'll pass.

Thank you for your post, Nun.  Yes, this is becoming a very serious problem and globally as well.  Remember the grandson of Max Factor in this country.  The only way I can think of to stop it is to make the punishment so severe as to make it not worth the effort.  Then again, maybe these predators will still be willing to take that risk no matter what.