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Author Topic: Bilderbergers excite conspiracists  (Read 4223 times)
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nonesuche
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« on: March 16, 2009, 08:09:34 AM »

I don't have time to research more regarding this, but some accused both Clinton and Bush of large Bilderberger associations, now it appears it's Obama's turn.

However, I have felt for some time now that Obama's ultimate goal is world leader......

Some of this is purely inflammatory but worst case scenario would be if part or all were true?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20010.html

Bilderbergers excite conspiracists

The highest levels of the Obama administration are infested with members of a shadowy, elitist cabal intent on installing a one-world government that subverts the will of the American people.

It sounds crazy, but that’s what a group of very persistent conspiracy theorists insists, and they point to President Obama’s nominee for Health and Human Services Secretary, Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, as the latest piece of evidence supporting their claims.

It turns out that Sebelius – like top administration economists Timothy Geithner, Larry Summers and Paul Volcker, as well as leading Obama diplomats Richard Holbrooke and Dennis Ross – is a Bilderberger. That is, she is someone who has participated in the annual invitation-only conference held by an elite international organization known as the Bilderberg group.

The group, which takes its name from the Dutch hotel where it held its first meeting in 1954, exists solely to bring together between 100 and 150 titans of politics, finance, military, industry, academia and media from North America and Western Europe once a year to discuss world affairs. It doesn’t issue policy statements or resolutions, nor does it hold any events other than an annual meeting.

Past participants have included Margaret Thatcher, who attended the 1975 meeting at Turkey’s Golden Dolphin Hotel, former media mogul Conrad Black, who has been to more than a dozen conferences, and Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, King Juan Carlos of Spain and top officials of BP, IBM, Barclays and the Bank of England.

It is precisely that exclusive roster of globally influential figures that has captured the interest of an international network of conspiracists, who for decades have viewed the Bilderberg conference as a devious corporate-globalist scheme.

The fulminating is aggravated by Obama's preference for surrounding himself with well-credentialed, well-connected, and well-traveled elites. His personnel choices have touched a populist, even paranoid nerve among those who are convinced powerful elites and secret societies are moving the planet toward a new world order.

Their worldview, characterized by a deep and angry suspicion of the ruling class rather than any prevailing partisan or ideological affiliation, is widely articulated on overnight AM radio shows and a collection of Internet websites.

The video sharing website YouTube alone is home to thousands of Bilderberg-related videos.

“I don’t laugh at the people who claim that they understand the connections, but I’ve never really spent much time tracing that through,” said Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), a former presidential candidate whose libertarian sensibilities have made him a darling of the Bilderberg conspiracists.

The one thing that concerns me is that the people who surround Obama or Bush generally come from the same philosophic viewpoint and they have their organizations – they have the Trilateral Commission, the CFR [Council on Foreign Relations] and the Bilderbergers, and they’ve been around a long time. And my biggest concern is what they preach: Keynesian economics and interventionism and world planning,” he said.

While it's easy to dismiss the Bilder-busters as cranks, these voices have a way of making themselves heard on the margins of the debate in ways that can prove to be a real, if minor, distraction to Obama’s political team. Bill Clinton had trouble shaking rumors that he was behind a shady criminal syndicate operating out of the Mena airport. George W. Bush was sometimes portrayed as the puppet of clandestine Middle Eastern oil interests.

Obama’s selection of numerous Bilderbergers for key posts “certainly would verify their suspicions,” said Paul, referring to fears of the group’s influence.

“And I don’t think it’s just Obama. Whether it’s the Republicans or the Democrats – Goldman Sachs generally has somebody in treasury. And the big banks generally have somebody in the Federal Reserve. And they’re international people, too. And they’re probably working very hard this weekend, with the G20. And they get involved in the IMF. But that is their stated goal. They do believe in a powerful centralized government and we believe in the opposite.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20010_Page2.html
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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 09:47:43 PM »

Dear Nonesuche,

This is what I've been talking about since I read about it at 17 years old, 47 years ago. I was young and knew nothing about the subject but I watched politics from that time onward and waited to see what would happen. I have written about it here several times and it was not well received.

There really is a cabal of rich businessmen and bankers who control the world. Yes, I do believe their current goal is akin to world domination and one central government.

According to your article "The group, which takes its name from the Dutch hotel where it held its first meeting in 1954, exists solely to bring together between 100 and 150 titans of politics, finance, military, industry, academia and media from North America and Western Europe once a year to discuss world affairs. " Doesn't that sound exactly like a cabal of rich businessmen, bankers and politicians who control the world?

From the Vogel link, "It’s obvious why Bilderberg is a frequent target of conspiracy theorists, who've credited it with anointing aspiring presidents, selecting their running mates, creating the European Union and instigating the war in Iraq and the bombing of Serbia, among other coups. Bilderberg meetings are closed to the press, participants are asked not to publicly discuss the proceedings and the attendee list is only occasionally released. As a result, the group has come to be viewed as a more publicity-shy cousin to the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations – other influential international think tanks that are staples of fringe group conversation."

None, it is the truth. They decide which wars will be fought as wars boost the economy and jobs. Further, every US president is connected to all the other previous presidents by a link to Bilderberg and Free Masons. The number 13 figures highly into the picture. Check out the Seal of the United States ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States

I've asked the question ... "Where did Obama come from? And how did he get to be a presidential candidate so quickly?" The first time I saw him was when he gave the keynote address at the 2004 democratic convention which was very well received but did not make him into a president. There has to be another factor, another entitly in the equation ... such as king makers.

I browsed some web sites and found an opinion written by a stranger which is thought provoking.

**********************************
"New World Order: The Scary Way to Say Supranationalism?
I really want to keep this short, but I want to brush over some big ideas. If you don't have too much of an idea what I am talking about, I will underline buzz words for you to research (a.k.a. Google).
I have been looking into conspiracy theories for my own amusement lately. I found that its like being in the x-files Television show without having to leave my desk. Anyway, I started to find that many of these theories had roots in some seriously cool truth. The problem is that crazy people seem to spend a lot more time posting information to the web than anybody else and you wind up having to sift through theories about reptilian shape shifters and doomsday prophecies.
My main passion—this week—has been looking into the New World Order. This pertains to a conspiracy by the world’s elite to stealth-manipulate the existing nations into one world government. Here is the kicker! A lot of the nuts have made it hard to even listen once the words “New World Order” are uttered, but there is some pretty interesting information that is not so crazy. Let’s brush away the doomsday/paranoia aspects and get to the meat of the topic.
WWII –ever hear of Zionism? Zionists belong to a Jewish faction of religious fanatics that want take back the holy land from Pakistan for Israel (that’s the short version). www.wingsofeagles.tv At the end of WWII, The allied forces created the State of Israel, and ever since we have given them weapons and showed them great favoritism. I used to wonder why…
Let’s jump ahead to the European Union (http://europa.eu/abc/panorama/index_en.htm). This started out as smaller communities devoted to paving the way to organizing European countries to make trade and such more universal. It grew into a supranationlist governing body. The EU is now responsible for passing laws that offer prison terms to those who even disagree with the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust (Google Holocaust Denial). I’m not the kind of guy to argue that the holocaust didn’t happen, but I’m not real comfortable with a law that may set a president for prison time for my religious beliefs—I don’t want to do time for not believing Jesus is the Messiah, but I’ll talk more about this another time.
The reason why the EU interests me so much, is due to the creation of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement). This follows the formula for the agreement that paved the way for the EU, and there have already been several summits to discuss universalizing trade between the United States, Mexico, and Canada (http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/bp173/). With the Bush administration pushing North American Summits during a period where the US executive branch had special privileges for signing economic treaties (Google Fast Track) and NAFTA already in place, it is pretty easy to infer that we are on a similar path to the one that lead to the European Union… a path that leads to a North American Union. I have read some rumors about the Amero (like the EU’s Euro), but haven’t found anything that convinces me that the Amero is anything more than speculation right now.
Now the simple theory is that the European Union and the African Union will be followed by the creation of the North American Union and then the Asian Union. Once this is complete, the four will be merged into a Supranationalist World Government. This is all very simple and reasonable. It’s a very large idea, but it has been in the works since the end of WWII—listen to some George H. W. Bush speeches of the 1990’s.
The problem arises when the lunatics start trying to scare people with talk of Illuminati and reptilian shape shifters. I love this kind of self-producing propaganda… the conspiracy theorists completely destroy their own credibility by bringing religious claims and unsubstantiated fantasies into the mix. I am sure the Zionist (I don’t mean Illuminati) spin doctors thank these nuts every night in their prayers for doing their job for them.
The truth is that there is a supranationalist movement (let’s stray from the term conspiracy momentarily)—maybe a stealth-movement—aiming at bringing about a world economy and government. The fact that rational people won’t even consider it because of the religious and lunatic connotations put on it by so many “conspiracy theorists” is a testament to the power of propaganda. The few sites that I have referenced in this blog are more trustworthy sites than the conspiracy sites. I also recommend looking up the underlined terms in a good encyclopedia. I do this because it should not be so difficult to find the barebones truth that you get discouraged by talk of doomsday and shadow-governments. The facts lead in a specific direction. I’m not trying to scare anyone. I just don’t think it’s any good to be in denial of what is happening because of the wealth of misinformation out there. "
**********************************

None, I hope you found this interesting and thought provoking.

With kind regards from Louise
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oldiebutgoodie
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 10:11:06 PM »

Louise, could you please post the url of the website where you got that material from? Thanks so much.
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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 10:39:23 PM »

Oldie,

It was a comment I read on one of many lists iin response to my googling "The Bilderberg Group." I did say it was a post by a stranger. The long area between the asterisks is what the person posted.

With kind regards,
Louise
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oldiebutgoodie
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 11:40:55 PM »

[snipped]

I browsed some web sites and found an opinion written by a stranger which is thought provoking.

[snipped]

Let’s brush away the doomsday/paranoia aspects and get to the meat of the topic.
WWII –ever hear of Zionism? Zionists belong to a Jewish faction of religious fanatics that want take back the holy land from Pakistan for Israel (that’s the short version).

Israel is quite a far distance removed from Pakistan. The modern State of Israel dates its birth from 1948. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan (it's official name) was not officially a country until the adoption of its constitution in 1956. Pakistan was carved out of the two Muslim-majority wings in the eastern and northwestern regions of British India. The controversial division of the provinces of Punjab and Bengal caused communal riots across India and Pakistan—millions of Muslims moved to Pakistan and millions of Hindus and Sikhs moved to India. But, what has India's and Pakistan's history to do with tiny Israel?

What "holy land" exists in Pakistan? Holy to whom? Pakistanis? I can believe that. However, there is no land in Pakistan that would be considered holy to Christians and Jews (that I'm aware of).

"Zionists belong to a Jewish faction of religious fanatics" -- The late Jerry Falwell was a Zionist. Well-known Christian singer and 50's icon Pat Boone is a Zionist. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Zionist. In fact, Dr. King once stated the following:
Quote
You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

LINK

You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist and to believe in the right of Israel to exist.

"At the end of WWII, The allied forces created the State of Israel..."  -- another glaring inaccuracy. Even though there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel since its original creation by the Jews who followed Moses out of Egypt, as a political State or entity, Israel has been overrun and conquered and re-conquered many times and many of the Jewish people were sent into exile. But, even at the time of the Crusades, a Jewish population in Israel was recognized.

The yearning to return to Israel became several emigration movements over the millenia with the most modern one beginning cerca 1882. The Jewish community located in the Mea Shearim area of Jerusalem was there.

At the time of this 1880ish immigration wave, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived in the area, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. That's not to say some Arab families did not also have their ancient roots in the area, as well. The fact is, however, there was no such country as Palestine. There has never been any such country. To suggest such a thing enraged Arab leaders at that time because they considered the area to be a geographic extension of Syria or perhaps, simply "unincorporated."

When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not."

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted: We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Getting back to the point of correcting the inaccurate statement that Israel was "created by the allies after WWII," in order to believe that, one would have to ignore the existence of the Balfour Declaration of 1917 which validates the right of Israel to exist (along with the League of Nations mandate that incorporated much of the Balfour Declaration).

It is true that the United Nations did not vote for the partition of that area into a Jewish State and an Arab State (which became Jordan) until 1947 and Israel did not declare its creation and independence until 1948.

"I don’t want to do time for not believing Jesus is the Messiah" -- I suspect that this will not happen to any resident of the United States of America. We are protected by a little thing called the First Amendment. Throwing people into jail because they don't believe in a State-mandated religion seems to be the purview of mainly Islamic/Arab countries. I don't think they would shed too many tears if you did not believe in any Christian sect. I don't think they'd care at all, actually.

"self-producing propaganda" -- I'm not familiar with this term. What is it, exactly?

"I am sure the Zionist (I don’t mean Illuminati) spin doctors thank these nuts every night in their prayers for doing their job for them." -- This statement is a tad on the confusing side. What is meant here by the term, "Zionist?" Should we refer to Rev. King's words above? He was a wise and learned man.

In the anti-Semite's mind, what is the difference between a Zionist and an Illuminati? What is an Illuminati, anyway? Why would there need to be a disclaimer about these Illuminati inside a statement about Zionists?

Has this person actually studied a siddur (Jewish prayer book)? Is that what they are claiming? They do seem to be claiming expert knowledge of how Zionists (i.e., Jews) pray.

Doing their job for them? What job is that, please?

Back to you...

(For those who are interested in learning, more resources can be found here: The Internet Jewish History Sourcebook; Jewish Virtual Library; and Swedish, Polish, English... Jewish)
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oldiebutgoodie
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 12:38:46 AM »

Another "Zionist?"



A beautiful article:  "My encounter with the Dalai Lama changed my life in ways I could never imagine."


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LouiseVargas
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 08:02:15 PM »

Dear oldiebutgoodie,

I think the person whose opinion I quoted mistakenly wrote "Pakistan" instead of Palestine.

With best regards, Louise
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 08:14:30 PM »

I think the goal of empire building is an old one.  History is full of empires - their rise, glory, and fall.  From the ashes and destruction of one civilization may come the blooming rose of another.  Sometimes, all that changes is more ashes.  Life is not better for most of those involved, especially if you're giving up your freedom.  I don't see any good coming from future empires.  I don't see them as any improvement over freedom and self determination.  imho
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nonesuche
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 08:28:41 PM »

Dear Nonesuche,

This is what I've been talking about since I read about it at 17 years old, 47 years ago. I was young and knew nothing about the subject but I watched politics from that time onward and waited to see what would happen. I have written about it here several times and it was not well received.

There really is a cabal of rich businessmen and bankers who control the world. Yes, I do believe their current goal is akin to world domination and one central government.

According to your article "The group, which takes its name from the Dutch hotel where it held its first meeting in 1954, exists solely to bring together between 100 and 150 titans of politics, finance, military, industry, academia and media from North America and Western Europe once a year to discuss world affairs. " Doesn't that sound exactly like a cabal of rich businessmen, bankers and politicians who control the world?

From the Vogel link, "It’s obvious why Bilderberg is a frequent target of conspiracy theorists, who've credited it with anointing aspiring presidents, selecting their running mates, creating the European Union and instigating the war in Iraq and the bombing of Serbia, among other coups. Bilderberg meetings are closed to the press, participants are asked not to publicly discuss the proceedings and the attendee list is only occasionally released. As a result, the group has come to be viewed as a more publicity-shy cousin to the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations – other influential international think tanks that are staples of fringe group conversation."

None, it is the truth. They decide which wars will be fought as wars boost the economy and jobs. Further, every US president is connected to all the other previous presidents by a link to Bilderberg and Free Masons. The number 13 figures highly into the picture. Check out the Seal of the United States ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States

I've asked the question ... "Where did Obama come from? And how did he get to be a presidential candidate so quickly?" The first time I saw him was when he gave the keynote address at the 2004 democratic convention which was very well received but did not make him into a president. There has to be another factor, another entitly in the equation ... such as king makers.

I browsed some web sites and found an opinion written by a stranger which is thought provoking.

**********************************
"New World Order: The Scary Way to Say Supranationalism?
I really want to keep this short, but I want to brush over some big ideas. If you don't have too much of an idea what I am talking about, I will underline buzz words for you to research (a.k.a. Google).
I have been looking into conspiracy theories for my own amusement lately. I found that its like being in the x-files Television show without having to leave my desk. Anyway, I started to find that many of these theories had roots in some seriously cool truth. The problem is that crazy people seem to spend a lot more time posting information to the web than anybody else and you wind up having to sift through theories about reptilian shape shifters and doomsday prophecies.
My main passion—this week—has been looking into the New World Order. This pertains to a conspiracy by the world’s elite to stealth-manipulate the existing nations into one world government. Here is the kicker! A lot of the nuts have made it hard to even listen once the words “New World Order” are uttered, but there is some pretty interesting information that is not so crazy. Let’s brush away the doomsday/paranoia aspects and get to the meat of the topic.
WWII –ever hear of Zionism? Zionists belong to a Jewish faction of religious fanatics that want take back the holy land from Pakistan for Israel (that’s the short version). www.wingsofeagles.tv At the end of WWII, The allied forces created the State of Israel, and ever since we have given them weapons and showed them great favoritism. I used to wonder why…
Let’s jump ahead to the European Union (http://europa.eu/abc/panorama/index_en.htm). This started out as smaller communities devoted to paving the way to organizing European countries to make trade and such more universal. It grew into a supranationlist governing body. The EU is now responsible for passing laws that offer prison terms to those who even disagree with the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust (Google Holocaust Denial). I’m not the kind of guy to argue that the holocaust didn’t happen, but I’m not real comfortable with a law that may set a president for prison time for my religious beliefs—I don’t want to do time for not believing Jesus is the Messiah, but I’ll talk more about this another time.
The reason why the EU interests me so much, is due to the creation of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement). This follows the formula for the agreement that paved the way for the EU, and there have already been several summits to discuss universalizing trade between the United States, Mexico, and Canada (http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/bp173/). With the Bush administration pushing North American Summits during a period where the US executive branch had special privileges for signing economic treaties (Google Fast Track) and NAFTA already in place, it is pretty easy to infer that we are on a similar path to the one that lead to the European Union… a path that leads to a North American Union. I have read some rumors about the Amero (like the EU’s Euro), but haven’t found anything that convinces me that the Amero is anything more than speculation right now.
Now the simple theory is that the European Union and the African Union will be followed by the creation of the North American Union and then the Asian Union. Once this is complete, the four will be merged into a Supranationalist World Government. This is all very simple and reasonable. It’s a very large idea, but it has been in the works since the end of WWII—listen to some George H. W. Bush speeches of the 1990’s.
The problem arises when the lunatics start trying to scare people with talk of Illuminati and reptilian shape shifters. I love this kind of self-producing propaganda… the conspiracy theorists completely destroy their own credibility by bringing religious claims and unsubstantiated fantasies into the mix. I am sure the Zionist (I don’t mean Illuminati) spin doctors thank these nuts every night in their prayers for doing their job for them.
The truth is that there is a supranationalist movement (let’s stray from the term conspiracy momentarily)—maybe a stealth-movement—aiming at bringing about a world economy and government. The fact that rational people won’t even consider it because of the religious and lunatic connotations put on it by so many “conspiracy theorists” is a testament to the power of propaganda. The few sites that I have referenced in this blog are more trustworthy sites than the conspiracy sites. I also recommend looking up the underlined terms in a good encyclopedia. I do this because it should not be so difficult to find the barebones truth that you get discouraged by talk of doomsday and shadow-governments. The facts lead in a specific direction. I’m not trying to scare anyone. I just don’t think it’s any good to be in denial of what is happening because of the wealth of misinformation out there. "
**********************************

None, I hope you found this interesting and thought provoking.

With kind regards from Louise

Hi Louise-

Sorry for my delay but work has been a beast this week, just so little time to concentrate on anything else and responding would require my concentration. Not sure my mind isn't too tired to do that tonight.

Yes, I do find this very thought provoking.

That being said I listened when you first broached this subject, I don't recall that I dissed it. I think there is a grand plan in existence and it has morphed and taken turns for decades now. What is truly different now within our world, is this global trade and economy, we're all intertwined in in ways we have not been prior. I think it creates a catalyst for those who would prefer to see one world leader, some who I don't respect like George Soros would be first in line to promote this.

I need to do some reading and research to debate this worth a darn, but I promise to try to find time for that, before I have to hit the road again - which is soon I've learned.

I appreciate all the information you brought for review here around this, I hope we can discuss it further when I catch up.

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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 09:45:02 PM »

I think the goal of empire building is an old one.  History is full of empires - their rise, glory, and fall.  From the ashes and destruction of one civilization may come the blooming rose of another.  Sometimes, all that changes is more ashes.  Life is not better for most of those involved, especially if you're giving up your freedom.  I don't see any good coming from future empires.  I don't see them as any improvement over freedom and self determination.  imho

Very interesting. In high school and college I learned that (generally) civilizations last between two thousand and three thousand years.

What do ya think WhiskeyGirl? It's obvious the world is changing in a very big way. I feel we are at the frontier of an entirely new world and we have to embrace it. We cannot say "no." "Gang Bangers" and random drive-by shootings are things of the past. We are experiencing new problems (terrorism, the economic situation, people losing jobs and houses and cars) which are the new things we have lost that we never thought we could lose.

I am willing to think about a new world order.

Kindest regards, Louise
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 10:02:05 PM »

Hi Louise-

Sorry for my delay but work has been a beast this week, just so little time to concentrate on anything else and responding would require my concentration. Not sure my mind isn't too tired to do that tonight.

Yes, I do find this very thought provoking.

That being said I listened when you first broached this subject, I don't recall that I dissed it. I think there is a grand plan in existence and it has morphed and taken turns for decades now. What is truly different now within our world, is this global trade and economy, we're all intertwined in in ways we have not been prior. I think it creates a catalyst for those who would prefer to see one world leader, some who I don't respect like George Soros would be first in line to promote this.

I need to do some reading and research to debate this worth a darn, but I promise to try to find time for that, before I have to hit the road again - which is soon I've learned.

I appreciate all the information you brought for review here around this, I hope we can discuss it further when I catch up.

Dear Nonesuche,

Thank you. I care for you very much and I look forward to discussion when you have time. No rush. I didn't mean that you dissed my earlier reports on the subject. I just cannot remember who did, but that doesn't matter.

So until the next discussion, I send this ...

... with the very best regards,
Louise
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 07:55:18 AM »

I think the goal of empire building is an old one.  History is full of empires - their rise, glory, and fall.  From the ashes and destruction of one civilization may come the blooming rose of another.  Sometimes, all that changes is more ashes.  Life is not better for most of those involved, especially if you're giving up your freedom.  I don't see any good coming from future empires.  I don't see them as any improvement over freedom and self determination.  imho

Very interesting. In high school and college I learned that (generally) civilizations last between two thousand and three thousand years.

What do ya think WhiskeyGirl? It's obvious the world is changing in a very big way. I feel we are at the frontier of an entirely new world and we have to embrace it. We cannot say "no." "Gang Bangers" and random drive-by shootings are things of the past. We are experiencing new problems (terrorism, the economic situation, people losing jobs and houses and cars) which are the new things we have lost that we never thought we could lose.

I am willing to think about a new world order.

Kindest regards, Louise

I think the times of prosperity come after the break up of large empires.  Sometimes, it gives the little people opportunity previously reserved for the rich and politically connected.  It is an opportunity to level the playing field.

While many people look at the living conditions of the old Soviet Union prior to the breakup, pre-communism had a lot of short falls.  There was a large divide between the poor and rich, and very little in the middle.  The poor lived in a kind of slavery known as surfdom.  People were tied to the land and rarely if ever broke the bonds of poverty.  There was no profit in watching your workers better themselves, no education, no return to the wealthy ruling class.

Post revolution was ugly for a lot of years.  I do believe it did break the cycle of poverty.

Communism suffered a similar fate.  A wide divide between the living conditions of the rich and the poor - party members and non-party members, very few in between, no opportunity to better themselves for the masses.

I see that same condition steamrolling in the new world order.  Large divide between the rich and poor, very little in between.  The poor are trapped in new cycles of poverty, and have no reason to better themselves.  Once you make a dollar over a 'poverty' limit, you lose all the benefits that make life easy.  Work and lose everything, or stay on the dole and get taken care of.   Slaves to entitlement programs, little opportunity to make it to the ever shrinking middle class or the rich and political upper class.

The color of the rich and political uppper class is changing.  Opportunity for the masses is being decreased.

I believe the best opportunities come after people have thrown off the yoke of oppression.  Examples - the Czars of Russia, the Soviet Communists, and French Revolution.  A reallocation of opportunity, not just wealth. 

In the US, the oppression is escalating.

jmho
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2009, 08:02:28 AM »

I think what made the United States of America great for many years after the revolution was the opportunity that opened to many, and the self determination of many small states, that were part of a larger political unit.

There was no central control.  States had a larger hand in determining their own success or failure.  There was no collective that tried to micro manage economics from a distance.  People managed their own back yard and were happy to do it.  Today, Washington wants to manage your back yard, your TV, your internet, your local schools, and none of these things is getting better.

The US government today is like GM, Citigroup, and AIG - to big to be successful.  I believe it's time to prune back the programs and taxing and return these things to state control.  Eliminate the Federal Reserve.  I know it's scary, but the Federal government has bankrupted the nation. 

jmho
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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2009, 11:32:38 PM »

Thanks WhiskeyGirl,

The Federal Reserve is a separate entity from the US Federal Government. I was shocked to learn that.

Best Regards, Louise
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2009, 09:19:44 AM »

WG - I agree. The one benefit from the current hubris is that the Federal Reserve is enduring some scrutiny as well. I wish the 'tea parties' being held across the country to protest the stimulus would include asking for the Federal Reserve, despite it being an independent entity.

To support your contention regarding being too big to be successful, some of these companies now are also too big for wall street to even assess in terms of an accurate value of their stock via analysis. So the companies benefit for it's so easy to hide performance or changes to their business model, downsizings or even lost customers, or products performing poorly.

Louise, I have been trying to do some research around the Bilderberger theory but it's a very deep and wide topic, I just can't seem to get my arms around all of it historically and there are so many pundits that I'm not sure what to think at first blush. This is where I wish we had tylergal for she has real insights on this topic.

I will write more later, must run to work but will be back to complete some thoughts I do have fully formed.........
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 10:16:24 PM »

Quote
The Federal Reserve still refuses to answer specific questions about where $2 trillion in bailout funds has gone, a subject that Bloomberg News sued the Fed simply to try and discover.

Quote
The Federal Reserve still refuses to answer specific questions about where $2 trillion in bailout funds has gone, a subject that Bloomberg News sued the Fed simply to try and discover.

Quote
The globalists’ call for a centralized global economic order has nothing to do with providing solutions to the crisis but everything to do with providing themselves with more power and control over the world’s financial system.

http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/35692

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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 07:01:13 PM »

Quote
The Federal Reserve still refuses to answer specific questions about where $2 trillion in bailout funds has gone, a subject that Bloomberg News sued the Fed simply to try and discover.

http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/35692



From your linked article: "As Ron Paul, Peter Schiff and their ilk have tirelessly argued, the only way to solve the financial crisis is to allow incompetent banks and companies to fail, not to reward their misdeeds by giving them billions in taxpayer money."

I thought that was an interesting take on it. The gist of the article seems to be that it is far better to have financial catastrophe on a worldwide scale than to have these financial institutions be held accountable for their scamming and scheming and incompetence. Having people out of work, out of their homes, with no means of sustenance and no hope for the future seems to be the preferred choice.

Just one tiny little example of what I mean:  The nurse who comes here two to three times a week to assist in my mother's care had been planning on buying a house in partnership with her long-time boyfriend. For her, the matter had become a medical urgency since she suffers from allergies and their current apartment building abuts open hillsides with all its pollen, etc. etc.

She and the boyfriend both have excellent credit scores and they were quickly approved for a home loan. And then, nothing. No bank had the ability or the will to make the loan because the current economic disaster had dried up the credit market. So they stayed in their apartment and she continued to suffer from her allergies.

Something about the last bailout payout to the banks must have done the trick because now the banks are lending again and the nurse is hopeful she will be living in a healthier environment soon.

But, according to the article above, it would have been far better and more "ethical" for the nurse to continue to suffer and live in an unsuitable environment.

According to the article above, any attempt at accountability to the American taxpayer for the multi-billions of their dollars paid out to the financial institutions is practically communism and an evil to be avoided. Somehow, I don't think that will sit too well with the majority of the American populace that seems quite outraged over the excessive and unjustified bonuses paid out to the AIG execs responsible for that company's failures.

In fact, simply by the tone of this article, one might wonder if it had been authored or influenced by the financial institutions most helped by the bailout and who now refuse to account for how they spend the public's money.
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 07:59:47 PM »

Found this interesting article [dated November 30, 2008 - before President Obama was President]:

Where Did the Fed's Bailout Money Really Go? Chart Shows Illegal Money Trail

The U.S. government financial bailout effort has reached a mind-blowing $8.5 trillion. But where did all this money go, exactly?

A chart at SFGate.com tracks the bailout expenditures, revealing some disturbing facts about the failure of the bailout to solve the lending liquidity problem. For example, the Federal Reserve has already created and dumped $2.1 trillion into the money supply, and it has pledged to create another $3.4 trillion.

And yet, despite these astonishing numbers, the liquidity crisis remains as bad as ever. Even worse, the very idea of rescuing bad debt by creating yet more bad debt (which is what the Fed is doing) seems outrageously stupid to begin with. The Fed is only setting us up for even greater financial problems down the road.

The SFGate.com chart has one major mistake, however: It implies the Federal Reserve is part of the U.S. government. As the better-informed readers across the internet already know, the Fed is, in fact, a private bank owned by a handful of wealthy individuals who aren't even Americans! It is not a department of the U.S. government, nor does it answer to U.S. law. It is, in a very real sense, a money supply dictatorship that has stolen trillions of dollars worth of purchasing power from U.S. taxpayers in order to bail out the rich bankster friends of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson.

There is no accounting of these funds, and Congress never approved the $5.5 trillion pledged by the Fed, which ultimately comes out of the pockets of taxpayers and consumers due to the money supply inflationary effects.

That's why there's a growing backlash against the Federal Reserve. Websites such as www.EndTheFed.us are cropping up on the 'net, and YouTube videos are revealing the shocking truth about the Fed: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qsJjTaekA8

The Fed is literally destroying the U.S. money supply; destroying your savings and destroying your economic future. Stopping the Fed's runaway creation of fiat money should be the No. 1 priority of U.S. citizens, but for reasons I've described elsewhere, most U.S. citizens are too brainwashed, dumbed-down and gullible to believe they're being royally ripped off by an unprecedented fraud masterminded by a privately-owned bank called the Federal Reserve.

SOURCE
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