Natalee Case Discussion #810 3/21/09 - 3/24/09

[klaasend]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gM4lWnpFfSI8U0EzxCHT8WVehRowD973AVB80

Aruba: New search for teen who disappeared in 2005
By DAVID McFADDEN – 35 minutes ago

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — The father of a U.S. teen who went missing nearly four years ago in Aruba said Sunday that a private investigator will scour a retention pond for answers that have eluded the family throughout numerous false leads and fruitless searches.

Dave Holloway said tracker dog specialist Fred Golba, from Chicopee, Massachusetts, will begin his latest search for evidence into Natalee Holloway's May 2005 disappearance early Monday. He said the tracker, who has searched for her eight times before, must be accompanied to the pond by Aruban police escorts, who delayed an anticipated weekend search.

Natalee Holloway, from Mountain Brook, Alabama, was 18 when she was last seen leaving a bar in the Aruban capital on the final night of a high school graduation trip. No trace of her has been found despite extensive searches involving hundreds of volunteers, Aruban soldiers, FBI agents and even Dutch F-16 jets with special equipment.

But Dave Holloway said a witness last year alleged that he saw the only remaining suspect, Joran van der Sloot, coming out of the brackish pond in northwest Aruba with only one sneaker on after Natalee's disappearance. He said the witness has passed a polygraph test.

"I've been looking for (nearly) four years and I intend to search all the evidence and every lead," said Holloway, speaking to The Associated Press from his home in Meridian, Mississippi. "(The witness) saw what he saw — or he believed he saw what he saw."

Sections of the remote pond area have been searched previously and no evidence was ever found.

Holloway said he had been waiting for the retention pond to dry up before commissioning this latest search, "but the weather has not been cooperative."

Ann Angela, a spokeswoman for the Aruba Prosecutors' Office, said neither police nor prosecutors have any new information in the case, but they gave Dave Holloway permission to search the pond, which is about a kilometer (mile) away from where she was last seen.

Before he left for Aruba on Friday, Golba told Fox 25 television in Boston that he planned to stick his hands into the pond's muddy bottom and feel around for "bones and his sneaker" while his tracking dog searches the marshy scrubland.

"I have more confidence in this pond then anything I have done in eight trips to this island," Golba told the TV station.

In early January, Chief Prosecutor Hans Mos said his office was "approaching the end of this lengthy investigation" and appealed to the public for help.

[trimmonthelake]

Thanks for the update Klaas. 

[texasmom]

Thanks Klaas!   

Dave Holloway said tracker dog specialist Fred Golba, from Chicopee, Massachusetts, will begin his latest search for evidence into Natalee Holloway's May 2005 disappearance early Monday. He said the tracker, who has searched for her eight times before, must be accompanied to the pond by Aruban police escorts, who delayed an anticipated weekend search.

 

[bastibro]

According to Dutch media Hans Mos says the new search is nonsense.
Unbelievable, the man has lost all objectivity and credibility!

[Tamikosmom]

I cannot comprehend why a search of the pond is taking place now.  If there was anything Natalee Holloway case related ... logic dictates it would have been discovered in May, 2008 when the pond was dried.

Why not wait until May, 2009 when the pond is once again dried if searching below ground level is where it is at?

Janet

+++++

Posted by GLENDA at RU:

This afternoon at Montserat (03/21/09)

"Pond in February 2008"


"Pond in May 2008"

bastibro ... for once I agree with Hans Mos.

Logic dictates there is anything Natalee Holloway case related in that pond ... it was planted.

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

THE POND


APRIL, 2008

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman - 04/07/08: There are 18 targets. Two are definitely tires. The rest, who knows. It's likely tin cans, mud clumps, and debris. There is one small box-like target but it's only 2ft across and doesn't have much relief, unless it's completely sunk into the mud (likely). I can find something about the size of a hockey puck with that system in good conditions. The water was very shallow when this survey was done. Remember, in February 2006 the pond was almost dry.


JANUARY, 2009

January 6, 2009
Press Anouncement
Ladies and gentlemen!

Hans Mos:

In the month of March 2008 a witness who was urged by Dave Holloway to step forward confronted the Prosecutor’s Office. The man gave a statement on March 16th 2008 accompanied by his lawyer. This witness statement is already widely known: the witness claims he saw Joran van der Sloot in the middle of the night of May 30th walking in front of his house, soaked up to his chest, walking on one shoe and heavily breathing. He was walking into the direction of the hotels, coming from the direction of the Church at Noord. What the witness was actually aiming for was the Police to conduct an intensive search in the dam of Monserrat. Nevertheless the witness could not give us any reason why the Police should conduct a search in the dam. It was the conclusion of the witness that Joran had come from the dam since he came walking from that direction.

There was no indication whatsoever that Joran had been at the dam. For that reason the Police were not ordered to conduct that search. Later, people from the Persistence asked if they were allowed to conduct a search. They were told that they could go ahead if the wanted to. No results were reported. Besides that, the Monserrat dam, which had completely fallen dry by that time, was not long before that request completely searched by dozens of people, for a completely different reason. No results were reported.

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2009/01/06/aruba-prosecutor-5-page-letter-dont-miss-the-part-where-he-trashes-fox-and-menever-dull/

BUMPED

[Artcolley]

Please excuse me if this link was provided in the past! I found it rather an interesting read about the geological formations and caves on Aruba.

http://tinyurl.com/dfhvdd

I didn't realize the extent and the number of caves on that Island and how easily they are accessed and what perfect hiding places they would afford one trying to hide a body quickly.

Hotping & Lifesong were looking for a contract that Kaplan Industry acquired from Mermis.  This paragraph from your link made me think of it again.  The name is somewhat common, but it grabbed my attention:

Mr. and Mrs. Kaplan lived on the north edge of the expanse of coral in which the cave (we called it “The Colony Cave” at the time, or just “The Cave”) was located. Harvey Kaplan, a boy perhaps two years older than I was, was a very active and fearless kid. Like all of us, he wandered over the coral, throwing rocks at lizards living in fissures in the coral (which tended to fill in with light soil and grow little bushes that could nourish insects or lizards.) He found a crack in the coral just south of his home, bigger than average, and slithered into it on his stomach. Much to his delight, the crack opened up a little as he crawled east, and eventually led into the Colony Cave itself. The next day at school, he rushed to tell other kids about his discovery, which we very soon began to call “Kaplan’s Cave”! The next Saturday, along with the Burbage boys and perhaps Ronald Turner and others, I followed Harvey (also known as “Tootie”) Kaplan into his private tunnel. It gave me the creeps to have to slither on my stomach through a narrow passage while at the same time curving to the right, but “Tootie” was leading the way and showed no fear at all. As the tunnel became larger, the adventure became more exciting, and my recollection is that we emerged into the chamber just to the southwest of the main entrance to Colony Cave, where water dripped from many spots in the ceiling and lay in shallow puddles on the floor. Stepping out of the narrow tunnel into the large, familiar room was like walking into a mansion.

Wow.Yes, Very interesting.

[Mary Ann]

The only way a search can be done is without Aruban LE involved. You cannot trust anyone in Aruba, it is so corrupt.

Mary Ann,
I am already wondering, in light of what happened on the Persistence, just what would happen if something should be found by this new search?  Are there arrangements in place already?  Would there be documentation and chain of custody and all of that or would ALE simply be once again allowed to take everything and speed away?

It is troubling, isn't it?

Anna,
Dave is a smart man. After the whole trap thing, I would hope he would not trust anyone. So, why do we even know that he is there searching. If I were him, I would disguise myself and go the the island and look for her without anyone knowing.


.

[Mary Ann]

some day I will learn how to respond to quotes.

[Anna]

The family of Jose Tromp has already had it searched thoroughly and nothing was found.  If the tire is just lying there, wouldn't other things be as well?  

Even if the witness is telling the truth and actually saw Joran from that distance in the dark, just because he was wet does not mean he had been planting remains.  He might have become wet anywhere and for any number of reasons.

Where is that tape of Paulus and the Colombians?  Kyle also already told us there was nothing but junk in the pond.

[Anna]

some day I will learn how to respond to quotes.

You are doing just fine.  We know exactly what you are saying.  See the Quote in the upper right hand corner of a post?  Be sure before you start your comment that you go all the way to the end of the previous quote as it will appear to be ended but the last word should be [/quote].  Then you paste your comment after that ending.

But we all still mess up and know what you are trying to say even if you put it right in the middle as we all do from time to time.

Don't worry about it. . . we all mess up the quotes from time to time but still know what is being added.

.

[Anna]

This cover up or whatever is being done now badly needs the words of Kyle Kingman to be eradicated and made to disappear.  I guess that is why the attack on the messengers?

[Blue Moon]

There is a thread RU and right now they are arguing whether any of the MG kids said NH was back at the hotel.  This link was provided by LoRain, but look where she got it?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159764,00.html





Any question now why I don't trust LoRain?  Of course neither Alana or Kissle say NH came back to the hotel but REALITY gave that link to LoRain as proof.

Not surprised at all Klaas!  No question in my mind at all why you don't trust her, only why others at pro Natalee sites DO trust her.  Her activities speak for her agenda loud and clear.

This is just another fine example of the services LoRain provides for Reality and her other "friends" at BNH.  It's no wonder she was welcomed back even after being banned there for creating drama about Rene Gielen's participation on their forum.

 

Your got to be kidding me.  Gielen participates on that forum also?  Sick. Sick.  Sorry but Robin (Dave's wife) is a piece of work imo.

[Lifesong]

This quote by John Silvetti, below, got me thinking:

For example, John Silvetti has taken samples from the pond bottom to determine how deep they have to dig for to find something from four years ago. Silvetti: “I have asked Mos to send samples to the FBI, because I’m not allowed to do that. But as far as I know, those samples are still in the refrigerator at the police station.
http://www.ad.nl/buitenland/3007028/Dave_Holloway_geeft_zoektocht_Natalee_niet_op.html

Silvetti stated he is not allowed to send samples (evidence) to the FBI, by which I assume he means the FBI Labs.  Looking for actual verification of this, even though it does ring true, I went to the FBI's website. 

There, under the Basic FAQs, I found the following:

Does the FBI Laboratory conduct examinations of evidence for anyone other than the FBI?
Yes. In addition to performing examinations for its own cases, the FBI Laboratory conducts scientific examinations of evidence, free of charge, for any duly constituted federal, state, and/or local law enforcement organization within the United States. Such services also may be made available to foreign law enforcement agencies under special agreement between the Attorney General and the Secretary of State.
http://www.fbi.gov/aboutus/faqs/faqsone.htm

Well, that wasn't quite enough information for me, so I kept looking and ended up here:

Handbook of Forensic Services 2007
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/handbook/forensics.pdf

The forensic services of the FBI Laboratory Division and the Operational Technology Division are available to the following:

• FBI field offices and legal attachés.
• U.S. attorneys, military tribunals, and other federal agencies for civil and criminal matters.
• State, county, and municipal law enforcement agencies in the United States and territorial possessions for criminal matters

and, a few pages further, here:

Submitting Evidence
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/handbook/forensics.pdf  (page 7)

All international law enforcement agency/police requests should be coordinated through the appropriate FBI legal attaché (LEGAT). LEGATs should fax the request to the Evidence Control Unit, 703-632-8334, prior to submitting any evidence to the Laboratory. Questions concerning international submissions should be directed to 703-632-8360.

We already know this, but to be absolutely clear, the FBI describes their legal attache's as follows:

Legal Attaché Offices
http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/legat.htm

For more than six decades, the FBI has stationed agents and other personnel overseas to help protect Americans back home by building relationships with principal law enforcement, intelligence, and services around the globe and facilitating a prompt and continuous exchange of information.

Today, we have Legal Attaché offices—commonly known as Legats—and smaller sub-offices in 75 key cities around the globe, providing coverage for more than 200 countries, territories, and islands. Each office is established through mutual agreement with the host country and is situated in the U.S. embassy or consulate in that nation.

Our Legal Attaché program is managed by the Office of International Operations at FBI Headquarters in Washington, D.C. This office keeps in close contact with other federal agencies, Interpol, foreign police and security officers in Washington, and national and international law enforcement associations. International liaison and information sharing are conducted in accordance with Executive Orders, laws, treaties, Attorney General Guidelines, FBI policies, and interagency agreements.

We already knew this as well, but just to re-verify...which legat would Aruba be going through to coordinate the submission of evidence to the FBI labs? 

http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/americas.htm

Bridgetown, Barbados
American Embassy: 1-246-436-4950
Nassau Suboffice
American Consulate: 1-242-322-1181
Nations covered: Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Aruba, the Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Bonaire, Cayman Islands, Curaçao, Dominica, Grenada, Guadeloupe, Martinique,  Montserrat, Saba, St. Bathelemy, St. Christopher (St. Kitts) and Nevis, St. Eustatius, St. Lucia, St. Maarten, St. Martin, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, and the Turks and Caicos Islands.

According to FBI Lab protocol - Mos/ALE had to go through the Barbados Legat to submit the material (or anything else) to the FBI Lab anyway.

So, it seems to me that a proper protocol onboard the Persistence could (and should) have been to recover any evidence they found themselves, (without contacting the Aruban authorities first) then contact the Barbados Legat and turn over the evidence to them, leaving the FBI then responsible for getting the evidence to Mos/ALE, and coordinating the submission of that evidence to the FBI Labs on behalf of the Prosecutor.

Why, oh why, did anyone ever agree to perform a search under the condition that ALE receive first contact upon discovery of potential evidence or remains?


JMO and only MO.

[texasmom]

There is a thread RU and right now they are arguing whether any of the MG kids said NH was back at the hotel.  This link was provided by LoRain, but look where she got it?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159764,00.html





Any question now why I don't trust LoRain?  Of course neither Alana or Kissle say NH came back to the hotel but REALITY gave that link to LoRain as proof.

Not surprised at all Klaas!  No question in my mind at all why you don't trust her, only why others at pro Natalee sites DO trust her.  Her activities speak for her agenda loud and clear.

This is just another fine example of the services LoRain provides for Reality and her other "friends" at BNH.  It's no wonder she was welcomed back even after being banned there for creating drama about Rene Gielen's participation on their forum.

 

Your got to be kidding me.  Gielen participates on that forum also?  Sick. Sick.  Sorry but Robin (Dave's wife) is a piece of work imo.

I don't know if Robin has started posting there again or not.  She'd stopped posting sometime last year, although she promised to stay in touch IIRC.  Someone else may know more.   

[nonesuche]

Lifesong I share your question and opinion here, for again this was offshore from Aruba and with the history of the LE resisting sharing anything, to not exercise the protocols that might have protected evidence and ensured the FBI had access - just doesn't make any sense at all. That point is what made me suspect of Silvetti and continues to make me suspect.

[bastibro]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/LLNMkbYJoH4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/LLNMkbYJoH4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;rel=0</a>

[Lifesong]

Who is making this stuff up??


"He waded out into the water chest deep and let her body go."


WTH???


Ugh.  This just p*sses me off!

Did anybody bother to ask Caps a.k.a. Anonimo if he let her WHOLE body go...or just part of it?

Geez... that is absolutely a fabricated statement.

[San]

Who is making this stuff up??


"He waded out into the water chest deep and let her body go."


WTH???


Ugh.  This just p*sses me off!

Did anybody bother to ask Caps a.k.a. Anonimo if he let her WHOLE body go...or just part of it?

Geez... that is absolutely a fabricated statement.

I agree.

[San]

When I watch Fred Golba my BS meter just goes off the chart when I see him talk