Natalee Case Discussion #813 3/31/09 - 4/5/09

[texasmom]

Kyle Kingman was a member of the Persistence crew.  Iris44 says she believed his words, but now she doesn't...she believes he had an agenda?

What agenda could that be, that would benefit Kyle Kingman?

To go into a forum dedicated to finding answers in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, aware of the fact that a family member of Natalee's was there.  To provide evidence through statements, pictures, etc., to prove his belief that members of the Persistence crew conspired with Aruban authorities to coverup the probable findings of Natalee's remains on a mission that was supposed to be dedicated to bringing Natalee home.  In doing so, he places the majority of the blame for what happened square in the lap of the man "paying his invoices", John Silvetti.  All the while knowing that all information was being documented to present to Natalee's parents. 

If what iris44 believes NOW is true, what agenda would provoke Kyle Kingman to do such a cruel and heinous thing?  What agenda could benefit Kyle Kingman by doing this?  Does anyone who believes as iris44 does still consider Kyle Kingman a hero?

There is no context that any of the statements that Kyle made could have been pulled from that would have changed those statments IMO.  Kyle himself stated that Kermit did not lie about what took place, or what was stated.

I can't think of any agenda that would have caused Kyle to do or say what he did IF it wasn't true.

JMO

 

[texasmom]

I found this youtube by accident and loved it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMFzwwYnA0

I love it too!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5eMFzwwYnA0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/5eMFzwwYnA0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

bump

[texasmom]

Truth & Justice for Natalee!

[Blonde]

2NJ, Hotping, Blonde, and all...

Peace be with you.






An Irish Funeral Prayer

Death is nothing at all.
It does not count.
I have only slipped away into the next room.
Everything remains as it was.
The old life that we lived so fondly together is untouched, unchanged.
Whatever we were to each other,  that we are still.
Call me by the old familiar name.
Speak of me in the easy way which you always used.
Put no sorrow in your tone.
Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes that we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be ever the household word that it always was.
Let it be spoken without  effort
Life means all that it ever meant. It is the same as it ever was.
There is unbroken continuity.
Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight?
I am but waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near, just around the corner.
All is well. Nothing is hurt; nothing is lost.
One brief moment and all will be as it was before.
How we shall laugh at the trouble of parting,  when we meet again.

Lifesong...Thank You Very Much for the Beautiful Irish Prayer...It has been a tough week and I Really Appreciate Your  Thoughtfulness! 

Thank You for your kind thoughts.
I'm just not ready to laugh yet.Or do much of anything.
 I feel comfort in Mom's room with all of her things,and pictures.
I still can't think stright, I feel lost.
We were very close, I miss her so much.

[sharon]

*** REMINDER *** JORAN DID IT ****

RonnieNY87
Scared Monkey

Offline

Posts: 3

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 -
« Reply #736 on: Today at 02:02:31 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone! I've been a board lurker for over a year now, and I've followed this case from the very beginning.  So many of you are SO intelligent, and I can't believe all the information you guys have been able to retrieve over the years. It's amazing that now, after all of these years, so many facts that we've all known all along are just starting to come out now. Absolutely unbelievable and ridiculous.
 
Anyway, the main reason I began following this story was because I had known Joran, not very well, but we met while I was on vacation in Aruba, October of 04. I was 16 at the time, he claimed to be 18. I had gone with my parents and 2 friends of mine (female friends). Nothing serious went on, we met him by the pool of our hotel (he was with 1 male friend the first time we met them) and after that he kept coming by the hotel for the remainder of our stay there and would hang out with us. The only thing he had really lied about was his age, the rest seemed to be pretty truthful (for example, he did tell us he lived in Aruba, he didn't lie about that). But even then, we did find something a little bit strange about him. We kept referring to him as the weird kid, because of the way he acted. He spent a lot of time talking about alcohol and pot (I live in NY, so for pot to be spoken about so openly was strange). He asked us quite a few times if we wanted to smoke with him, but we told him no, he seemed to respect that.
 
The day we were leaving, we exchanged screen names to "keep in touch." I was the only one out of my friends who kept in contact with him, but not too often. He was my online "poker buddy." Went on web cam a couple of times. After a while he started trying to talk dirty, but I shot that down real quick. The last time we spoke on the messenger before Natalee's disappearance was April 05.. So you'd imagine my surprise when in May, I heard he was a suspect in her disappearance. It definitely gave me the chills, knowing this was a person I hung out with only 7 months before. I couldn't believe at first that he was responsible, because like I said, besides his constant talk of drugs/alcohol, he wasn't really disrespectful to any of us. He knew we were all too young to go to the clubs/bars so he never really pressed that issue.. Like I said, the only thing he tried to do was get us to smoke pot with him, but we declined every time.
 
I was shocked to learn that he had lied to us about his age, what was the point? If he was 17 in May 05, that would mean he would of been the same age as us, so why lie? The more and more I heard about the story, the more and more I realized he was guilty. We spoke on messenger one more time after he was named a prime suspect. I had asked him why he lied about his age, he said he was trying to impress us and also that he could get in trouble for drinking underage so he had to lie to everyone he met about his age. I then had asked him if it was true, what he did. He made a strange comment about the truth coming out someday. At the time, I copied the entire conversation and sent it to Dave. I knew it really wouldn't of done much, but I figured that comment he made alone meant something. That was the last conversation I've ever had with Joran.
 
I feel for Natalee and her family and friends, because it really could of happened to anyone. The jerks who say that she shouldn't of gotten drunk, shouldn't of left the bar with a guy she didn't know, they are ridiculous. I believe Joran did meet Natalee days before Carlos & Charlies, and I believe he probably showed her the same kind of respect he showed me and my friends, and I believe he was as nice to her as he was to us. This probably made her trust him a little bit, especially when youre drunk you will trust anyone whose being nice to you.
 
Do I believe he had it in him to actually murder her? No.. Not from what I knew of him. Do I believe he put something in her drink and probably raped her? Absolutely.. They were probably smoking pot in Deepaks car also. I believe she died somehow while with him, he called Paulus for help, and the cover up began. As for Deepak and Satish? I'm not so sure.. I really don't believe they are involved all that much. I believe they knew what happened to her, and they should be punished for not coming forward with their information. But I don't believe they were there when she died. Just my opinion though.
 
Anyway, sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my story and experience with Joran Van Der Sloot.
 
Keep up the good investigative work, monkeys! =]
 
Ronnie

[Artcolley]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

[San]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

Hi Art, Good Morning to you too and everyone else.

[texasmom]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

Good morning Artcolley!  I've done the "rise", give me a little bit for the "shine".   

Good morning everyone! 

[Artcolley]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

Hi Art, Good Morning to you too and everyone else.

HI San 
I love that picture, I want to take my coffee and sit out there!

[San]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

Hi Art, Good Morning to you too and everyone else.

HI San 
I love that picture, I want to take my coffee and sit out there!

I like that picture also Art.  It's very peaceful.  I will be right over for coffee 

[Artcolley]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

Good morning Artcolley!  I've done the "rise", give me a little bit for the "shine".   

Good morning everyone! 

Morning
YEs, the shine takes a bit of work 

[Artcolley]

Good Morning, Monkeys  

Rise and Shine, everybody!

Hi Art, Good Morning to you too and everyone else.

HI San 
I love that picture, I want to take my coffee and sit out there!

I like that picture also Art.  It's very peaceful.  I will be right over for coffee 

OK..door is open and coffees on, woodstove going and all is cozy and good!!!  Nice coffee cake in the oven, too!

[Anna]

[Artcolley]

HAPPY SUNDAY, ANNA!

[Anna]

Thank you, Art Collie.  I am once again enjoying beautiful weather and send some of our warmth up your way so you can enjoy the coffee and not be cold.

We are all ready for spring, I think.  And I know I am very excited about the upcoming movie as it is getting really close to time for it to air.

Oh, please let it be well done and factual!  I think it will be if Beth was given free hand to consult and supervise or correct their errors.

[Artcolley]

Thank you, Art Collie.  I am once again enjoying beautiful weather and send some of our warmth up your way so you can enjoy the coffee and not be cold.

We are all ready for spring, I think.  And I know I am very excited about the upcoming movie as it is getting really close to time for it to air.

Oh, please let it be well done and factual!  I think it will be if Beth was given free hand to consult and supervise or correct their errors.

It is quite warm here today, for us, lol, its in the 50's!

I , too, hope the movie is factual. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. (fingers crossed)

[Artcolley]

The Natalee case has been quite the ride, hasn't i? I remember back to the day she disappeared, the tv on, just waiting for news that they found her.
Obviously, that never happened. Instead we got led on a path of ups and downs of lies, coverup, blame and deceit from that very first day by the "spokespeople" , LE and even Aruban gov. officials.
It was like being in a bizarre horror movie.
AND the pattern has never ended, it continues to this day.

The case has drawn out every internet loon, charletans, money grubbers, pathological liars and even the AHATA squads of misinformation. AND that also continues to this day.

In all my years on this earth I have never seen such antics from a Government to try and cover up what should have been an open and shut case. 

[Tamikosmom]

THE ANALYSIS

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

Kyle Kingman: I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.


++++++


QUALIFICATIONS

Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick

Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:

Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


The Search for Natalee Holloway
Monday, November 26, 2007

I. Mobilization

Key Personnel:

<snipped>

Kyle Kingman - Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://jlbworld.com/files/chapter23/sitedevotedtoseasearch.htm
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/11/mobilization.html

FOR YOU IRIS44......

Thanks Janet,

You've done a great job putting all the info together and I've read it all and at first I believed Kyle, I just don't anymore.  No offense, but I think that if he had some real evidence, he would not have bothered trying to convince some internet bloggers that he had something.  In my opinion, if he had something he would have been able to sell it to an actual media person.  That he was unable to sell it, is the proof I need to form that opinion.  Perhaps my logic is flawed, but I doubt it.

Iris

At what period in time did you believe Kyle Kingman's own words.  At what period in time did you support Kermit in exposing Kyle Kingman's own words.

Janet

++++++++

Iris
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #791 1/6/09 -
« Reply #487 on: January 08, 2009, 05:58:05 AM »

If all this Persistence/Kyle conspiracy theory stuff is the real deal, why is the family, the media, etc. not jumping all over it?  The more I read all Kyle's "statements" the more he reminds of when my son was 14 and had his own website.  I think Kyle the ocean exploring geek has a little make believe world going on, and you're all going along for the ride.  If nobody has any real evidence here (no, Kyle's words are not evidence), I think it's time to get off this subject, especially if it is hurting the family.  I would bank on the fact that the family, DeVries, Tim Miller, Greta, etc. all have a better idea of the real facts of the case than Kyle does.  Re-read the end of Beth's book for her theory, re-watch the Dateline show and see the dedication on the faces of everyone working together on the Persistence.  This Kyle stuff is nothing but conspiracy theory.  You are losing some of the smartest monkeys because most of you are locked onto this one theory, and some are being mean to those who oppose "the" theory!  And aren't the snarky posts talking about other posters off-topic?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4351.msg617328#msg617328

[Tamikosmom]

Good Morning All!!

Janet
8:25 Am

[San]

The Natalee case has been quite the ride, hasn't i? I remember back to the day she disappeared, the tv on, just waiting for news that they found her.
Obviously, that never happened. Instead we got led on a path of ups and downs of lies, coverup, blame and deceit from that very first day by the "spokespeople" , LE and even Aruban gov. officials.
It was like being in a bizarre horror movie.
AND the pattern has never ended, it continues to this day.

The case has drawn out every internet loon, charletans, money grubbers, pathological liars and even the AHATA squads of misinformation. AND that also continues to this day.

In all my years on this earth I have never seen such antics from a Government to try and cover up what should have been an open and shut case. 

I agree Artcolley.  We have seen it all.