Lively Case Discussion #487 7/5 - 7/6/2006

[Lala'sMom]

Ponder these things while I am gone for a few hours:

Simian Says: June 25th, 2005 at 7:36 pm
In the other car.

Simian Says: June 25th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
Kalpoes went home. Joran stayed behind. Somebody had to come get him.

Who is in the other car?

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:52 pm
DirtyHand has walked through the maze
He knows of the forbidden fruit
and the gardeners

Still no definite answer as to the dirty hand identity.  Remember there are several and have been for years.


Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 11:48 pm
The Simian was incorrect about the package from the Hague
I told the Simian, but the Simian would not listen
The simian is not a simian, but an austrolopithecus

Does this sound like jesting between friends or a fight amongst rivals?

Shango Says: June 28th, 2005 at 12:19 am
Shango must leave to feed the messengers
The gods are talking

What is Shango's day job? Anyone want to venture a guess?


Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 1:52 am
The Simian says that The Simian only reports developments ahead of time. The Simian thinks was is going on is shameless. Playing with feelings.
Th Simian’s umbilical is buried close to the heart of the island. NOBODY EVER try to put us down. The Simian hates what he has been reading.
All things must pass.

Who's upset now and why?  What happened to Simian that caused this rift?

Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:01 am
The Simian is getting out. Knows Shango, knows Shock me, knows Checkme. Do not underestimate the power of the ping.
Shango is a dumb copycat. Maybe the Simian should place a call on you. Get you 8 days with a hole to take a dump in. Complementary peanut butter on stale bread for you, you fool.
The Simian is angry. Over and out.
Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:09 am
The Simian is disapointed. The Simian repeats himself seldom, but like to say the he only reports ahead of time. The clues were solely to avoid implicating sources. Never to hurt the feeling of the readers.
Seeing how this has been used to foul, the Simian will again say that he will retire.
Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:18 am
f*** the poetry. The Simian is a frenchman. Blue blood if you should know.
Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:21 am
The Simian doesn’t make predictions. Only gives the group information ahead of time. Predictions are for fools. This is the Simian.
No me hagan mofa. Estoy molesto por las bobedades de Shango y Shock y Checkme. Se creen, pero no son.
Shango Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:23 am
?
Shango Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:24 am
This Simian is not the Simian. It is a Doppleganger.

There is definitely a disagreement going on between Shango and Simian. Any thoughts as to why.

I will return later this evening, just pondering once again.

[AZLady]

Perhaps Shango was telling too much and implicating politically involved people that Simian did not want to see involved in this.

[AZLady]

I do think Shango was trying not so much to reveal the perps (everyone knew who they were), but to reveal the politics on the island that allowed this coverup to occur.  Simian entered the game after Shango, and attempted to discredit Shango's political commentary.  Wasn't Arubagirl heavily invested in the island's political scene and upcoming election?

[Tylergal]

Earlier today a poster claiming to be an ex of Joran was posting on this site. Dan got her phone number and called her to see if she was on the up and up. Her name is Melody, and Dan said she was for real.

Her posts seemed to me to be legit, and after Dan confirmed, it was good by me. Lot's of other folks remained unsure and began insinuating Dan wasn't being either open minded or honest.

Anyway, name calling ensued and I think Dan got fed up.

Frankly the name calling and stereotyping is childish to me as well.

That's what I think happened to Dan and the weblog.

Posted by: VASteve | Thursday, August 11, 2005 at 07:51 PM


I do not find any posts anywhere around that time of hers.  My suspicion is they have been scrubbed.

[klaasend]

Earlier today a poster claiming to be an ex of Joran was posting on this site. Dan got her phone number and called her to see if she was on the up and up. Her name is Melody, and Dan said she was for real.

Her posts seemed to me to be legit, and after Dan confirmed, it was good by me. Lot's of other folks remained unsure and began insinuating Dan wasn't being either open minded or honest.

Anyway, name calling ensued and I think Dan got fed up.

Frankly the name calling and stereotyping is childish to me as well.

That's what I think happened to Dan and the weblog.

Posted by: VASteve | Thursday, August 11, 2005 at 07:51 PM


I do not find any posts anywhere around that time of hers.  My suspicion is they have been scrubbed.

Yep, Dan's entire thread Natalee Holloway Discussion 116 was deleted.  That's where the big discussion was.

[AZLady]

I think Melody's posts were by Joran's ex-girlfriend.  Tyler, you and I discussed that Dan was most likely bought and paid for last fall.

[Tylergal]

Klaas, that is what I think too.  I looked because several are out of order, but I could not find 116 and I believe that is where it was.  Dan scrubbed it to protect the Sporter, because he was outed by a poster from Miami, who said he could provide information that Dan was being paid off and that poster was banned.

[AZLady]

Melody was younger than her chronological age indicates and seems not very bright.  Perhaps they attempted to use her as a tool, as indicated by the one televised interview she did, but Melody was just not bright enough to lie convincingly to the media and the public.  She could only talk to her relationship with Joran, and then only part of it.  I think she was told to be quiet when it was percieved that she was not a good puppet.

[AZLady]

Melody was younger than her chronological age indicates and seems not very bright.  Perhaps they attempted to use her as a tool, as indicated by the one televised interview she did, but Melody was just not bright enough to lie convincingly to the media and the public.  She could only talk to her relationship with Joran, and then only part of it.  I think she was told to be quiet when it was perceived that she was not a good puppet.

English teachers make spelling errors, but we call them typos!

[Tylergal]

Melody was younger than her chronological age indicates and seems not very bright.  Perhaps they attempted to use her as a tool, as indicated by the one televised interview she did, but Melody was just not bright enough to lie convincingly to the media and the public.  She could only talk to her relationship with Joran, and then only part of it.  I think she was told to be quiet when it was percieved that she was not a good puppet.

I think she was one of the StefLoco group.  I think she was promised a pie in the sky by Ernesto if she would go along.  She stated in one of her posts that Joran knew a "short cut" from her house which is near the Marriott to his house, when somone was discussing how he could walk it in such a short period of time without shoes.  I think out of fear some of us would think Melody involved, Dan was told to remove the whole thread because it did not fit with their agenda, whoever they were and I know who two of them were.

I always thought Blacklabel was the Judge Smid.

[Tylergal]

Melody was younger than her chronological age indicates and seems not very bright.  Perhaps they attempted to use her as a tool, as indicated by the one televised interview she did, but Melody was just not bright enough to lie convincingly to the media and the public.  She could only talk to her relationship with Joran, and then only part of it.  I think she was told to be quiet when it was perceived that she was not a good puppet.

English teachers make spelling errors, but we call them typos!

       Yep.    

[Tylergal]

AzLady, I have story, not dissimilar to something Terry might tell.

When we were in fifth grade, our English teacher was explaining contractions and specifically pronoun contractions.  She stated that in her book it stated has could be used as part of a pronoun contraction but she could never think of one single instance in which that was the case.

I popped up and said, "It's been raining all day."

Teacher said.  "No, it's cold and dry outside.

Then suddenly her face turned red.  She got it.  I knew that day I was destined to major in English.  

[AZLady]

It does seem likely she operated with the Loco Stef crowd.  By the way, I think young Valentijn is in the US now visiting a 15 year old girl in her home, just as bro used to do.  Shameful, in my opinion.  

Do ya think Dr. Phil might have been on track there, with looking for a kidnap victim?  Hmm...everything has been very quiet on that front for a very long time.  I would not discount the idea of Joran kidnapping Natalee, three to five of them gang raping her, hurting her to the point of spilling blood, and then attempting to sell her to kidnappers.  Maybe this was the original plan that went bad after Joran's temper "damaged the goods" to the point that the sale could not be accomplished.   Maybe Paulus had some serious explaining to do in Miami when he couldn't produce the kidnapped blonde but instead a blonde was missing and presumed dead with blood in the Kalpoe car.  Bad Joran.

[Tylergal]

Ponder these things while I am gone for a few hours:

Simian Says: June 25th, 2005 at 7:36 pm
In the other car.

Simian Says: June 25th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
Kalpoes went home. Joran stayed behind. Somebody had to come get him.

Who is in the other car?

Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 10:52 pm
DirtyHand has walked through the maze
He knows of the forbidden fruit
and the gardeners

Still no definite answer as to the dirty hand identity.  Remember there are several and have been for years.


Shango Says: June 27th, 2005 at 11:48 pm
The Simian was incorrect about the package from the Hague
I told the Simian, but the Simian would not listen
The simian is not a simian, but an austrolopithecus

Does this sound like jesting between friends or a fight amongst rivals?

Shango Says: June 28th, 2005 at 12:19 am
Shango must leave to feed the messengers
The gods are talking

What is Shango's day job? Anyone want to venture a guess?


Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 1:52 am
The Simian says that The Simian only reports developments ahead of time. The Simian thinks was is going on is shameless. Playing with feelings.
Th Simian’s umbilical is buried close to the heart of the island. NOBODY EVER try to put us down. The Simian hates what he has been reading.
All things must pass.

Who's upset now and why?  What happened to Simian that caused this rift?

Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:01 am
The Simian is getting out. Knows Shango, knows Shock me, knows Checkme. Do not underestimate the power of the ping.
Shango is a dumb copycat. Maybe the Simian should place a call on you. Get you 8 days with a hole to take a dump in. Complementary peanut butter on stale bread for you, you fool.
The Simian is angry. Over and out.
Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:09 am
The Simian is disapointed. The Simian repeats himself seldom, but like to say the he only reports ahead of time. The clues were solely to avoid implicating sources. Never to hurt the feeling of the readers.
Seeing how this has been used to foul, the Simian will again say that he will retire.
Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:18 am
f*** the poetry. The Simian is a frenchman. Blue blood if you should know.
Simian Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:21 am
The Simian doesn’t make predictions. Only gives the group information ahead of time. Predictions are for fools. This is the Simian.
No me hagan mofa. Estoy molesto por las bobedades de Shango y Shock y Checkme. Se creen, pero no son.
Shango Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:23 am
?
Shango Says: June 28th, 2005 at 2:24 am
This Simian is not the Simian. It is a Doppleganger.

There is definitely a disagreement going on between Shango and Simian. Any thoughts as to why.

I will return later this evening, just pondering once again.

Tito is a Frenchman.

[AZLady]

AzLady, I have story, not dissimilar to something Terry might tell.

When we were in fifth grade, our English teacher was explaining contractions and specifically pronoun contractions.  She stated that in her book it stated has could be used as part of a pronoun contraction but she could never think of one single instance in which that was the case.

I popped up and said, "It's been raining all day."

Teacher said.  "No, it's cold and dry outside.

Then suddenly her face turned red.  She got it.  I knew that day I was destined to major in English.  

     

[Tylergal]

It does seem likely she operated with the Loco Stef crowd.  By the way, I think young Valentijn is in the US now visiting a 15 year old girl in her home, just as bro used to do.  Shameful, in my opinion.  

Do ya think Dr. Phil might have been on track there, with looking for a kidnap victim?  Hmm...everything has been very quiet on that front for a very long time.  I would not discount the idea of Joran kidnapping Natalee, three to five of them gang raping her, hurting her to the point of spilling blood, and then attempting to sell her to kidnappers.  Maybe this was the original plan that went bad after Joran's temper "damaged the goods" to the point that the sale could not be accomplished.   Maybe Paulus had some serious explaining to do in Miami when he couldn't produce the kidnapped blonde but instead a blonde was missing and presumed dead with blood in the Kalpoe car.  Bad Joran.

Did Paulus receive an automatic transmission at the bank, and he was checking on his funds to amke sure, and then the goods are damaged or dead and Paulus has to answer to someone in Florida.  Florida is mad but they are not going to pursue Paulus, only help him, because Freddy and Ernesto are involved.

[AZLady]

Upon looking at the language choice and the phrasing, Simian is a male.  He's also an easily frustrated male.  Tito fits the bill, from my past observations.

[Kimmy53]

Melody was younger than her chronological age indicates and seems not very bright.  Perhaps they attempted to use her as a tool, as indicated by the one televised interview she did, but Melody was just not bright enough to lie convincingly to the media and the public.  She could only talk to her relationship with Joran, and then only part of it.  I think she was told to be quiet when it was perceived that she was not a good puppet.

English teachers make spelling errors, but we call them typos!

  I was reading your comment and before I realized you had quoted yourself, I was thinking - boy - who would have picked up on that spelling error!!!!(They sure are being picky!) But I realized you quoted yourself!!  

Thanks for your ideas on the case - I have been reading and you have given me alot of food for thought.

[AZLady]

It does seem likely she operated with the Loco Stef crowd.  By the way, I think young Valentijn is in the US now visiting a 15 year old girl in her home, just as bro used to do.  Shameful, in my opinion.  

Do ya think Dr. Phil might have been on track there, with looking for a kidnap victim?  Hmm...everything has been very quiet on that front for a very long time.  I would not discount the idea of Joran kidnapping Natalee, three to five of them gang raping her, hurting her to the point of spilling blood, and then attempting to sell her to kidnappers.  Maybe this was the original plan that went bad after Joran's temper "damaged the goods" to the point that the sale could not be accomplished.   Maybe Paulus had some serious explaining to do in Miami when he couldn't produce the kidnapped blonde but instead a blonde was missing and presumed dead with blood in the Kalpoe car.  Bad Joran.

Did Paulus receive an automatic transmission at the bank, and he was checking on his funds to amke sure, and then the goods are damaged or dead and Paulus has to answer to someone in Florida.  Florida is mad but they are not going to pursue Paulus, only help him, because Freddy and Ernesto are involved.

BINGO!  Paulus checked his ATM balance to see if funds were transferred into it.  He may have made a minor withdrawal while there, but the point of going to the ATM at 4 am was to see if a deposit had been made.  A payment for services rendered--the kidnapping of a blonde girl.  Most likely Paulus had to send the cash back--too bad.   Yes, they will most likely give him another chance at earning his keep with Freddy and Ernesto as contacts.

[Tylergal]

GREAT POST.  Seedyrum was onto Julia Renfro very early on.



http://www.crimenews2000.com/cgi-bin/wwwthread/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=cold&Number=187921&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5∂=all
all of the following information from the above site

we read that that van der sloot was/is a student at the international school in aruba. yesterday the site was up, today's it's blocked. also there is a professor at the school named anita van der sloot - hugen.

typically dutch women keep their maiden names but do it just the opposity way from the us with the maiden name second. given the length of experience of this teacher as shown on her resume, i'm wondering if she's his mother....

The Dutch suspect, Joran Andreas Petrus Van Der Sloot, a student at Aruba International School,father is a prominent official in the Aruban justice system studying to be a judge.

a local (to aruba) blogger is saying that there will be a news conference this am and that the rumor circulating on the island is that blood was found in the silver honda which belonged to van der sloot. also that her parents gave blood samples at the local hospital yesterday (the part about her parents was in the local press this am)

Aruban Minister of Justice Edward Croes told FOX News Natalee Holloway, who was on vacation with friends as a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities know the location of her body.

Even though Joran said, in his tickle.com profile, that he was looking for "friends/physical/fling," his friend Arina still didn't like me calling him a "dog

Hmph.

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside

I'm sure you all must have seen Geraldo's 10 pm show with the parents (think it was last night). They have really lost patience and only learned about the blood in the car from Geraldo, not from the authorities. Natalee's mom said a couple of days ago, the police said this: "We don't feel so strongly as we did that your daughter might be alive."

Coco, I am puzzled by that request of the FBI to the parents not to talk to anyone any longer, as well. The only things that come to mind: (1) the FBI has told the parents that in order to let the FBI continue to help, the parents have to be more low-key or the Arubans will get even more secretive and/or (2) the FBI has extracted a promise from the Aruban authorities that the parents will be informed first before anything is released to the media, IF the parents agree to keep quiet. Just guesses.

Ny Teacher, I was trying to find a way to say that very same thing, and failed. I've been thinking of just this scenario. It still leaves the question of him - how did he get home without being spotted - and how did he dispose of the body, but I can let my imagination roam and say at this point, the two security guards got involved and helped him do a coverup. You can see I have a pretty active imagination, but this case is puzzling.

The best damn thing that I can comment on this is the fact that the mother has the fortitude to stay there and insist that she isn't leaving without knowing exactly what happened, and voicing her view that the guards were likely set up as patsies. How far will the Aruban government go to protect the reputation of a single, upper-class family vs. preserving the entire colony's (it is a colony, right?) economic welfare? Folks know that crime is handled differently in different parts of the world and that caste systems allow those in the upper classes to operate above "the law," but wow, if this isn't helping some folks decide where and where NOT to spend their discretionary income.

Slim: Persons violating Aruba laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested or imprisoned. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in Aruba are severe, and convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences and heavy fines.

With all due respect, Slim, just because the government paints this as some island paradise doesn't make it so. Heck, look at Mexico. Sure they'll lock YOUR butt up if they catch you with drugs, but look how much gets through to the US. It's really not that hard for the Columbian (or other) mafia to grease a few well placed palms so they'll look the other way.

saw a spokesman for Aruba's government, Ruben Trapenberg, on the Today show this morning. He was asked something like, "wouldn't the security cameras outside the Holliday Inn show whether or not that the 3 guys were ever there that night?" Trapenberg responded something like "there are no cameras outside the hotel only inside in the lobby"

I thought I heard about a TV show last week when they interviewed the Holliday Inn employees (can't remember what the show was) One employee said there were security cameras outside the hotel but they were NOT working? And then another employee later said the cameras outside were working?

Does anyone know any info about where they had security cameras at the Holliday Inn? Would the Aruban government try to get rid of proof that the security gaurds had nothing to do with it and Natalee never arrived back at the hotel?

Interesing point on Google. If you do a search under Natalee Holloway you get different stories. If you search Natalee Ann Holloway, something else pops up. Other stories.


So what happened yesterday with the condoms, panties, and duct tape found that turned out to be nothing? Do you think there was a wise guy prankster, maybe some teens who put that stuff there knowing it would cause a news frenzy?


Charles Rafini, the Aruban teen who says he found the underwear and condoms in the brush, as well as duct tape and a string cut from a bikini or halter top, at a location commonly known to locals as a make-out spot, described the underwear he found as pink with flowers on them. He told FOX News on Wednesday that the location of the findings "is not too far" from the Marriott hotel.

Arubans have displayed an eagerness to dispel the shadow cast over their home and help out with the investigation. Reporters from Aruban radio station Top 95 launched their own search before police arrived at the Marriott, and said they found a pair of torn pink-and-white polka dot panties and three condoms, two of them used.

btw, do you guys believe the story about the brothers dropping van der sloot off ten blocks up at the marriott? i do, but then the skeptical part of me started to wonder about what a skinny indian dude stuck in prison with a bigger dude might blurt out to just save his ass.


Torn panties, cut halter top sraps, duct tape... this is not a "make out" spot. It is a RAPE LOT, where the locals take their tourist ladys after a few bad ice cubes.


Read the "Julie Renfro, Editor of Aruba Today, on Fox’s O’Reilly Factor", June 15, blog on Scared Monkeys Scared Monkeys


the only thing about julie renfro's letter that makes no sense to me is she says he drives a honda, yet we know they towed two other cars from the family home today (neither of which was a honda) so a civil servant has three cars (one for his as yet unable to legally drive son)

who does that honda really belong to? does it make sense that the kalpoe brothers were driving joran's car and dropped him off at the beach and then drove HIS car home? how did he get back home? anyway, this latest article seems to clarify a few details of what's happened til now

If the 2 brothers did drop the Dutch guy and Natalee off somewhere, then wouldn’t the 2 brothers have known they were in the clear since day one? What would be their motivation to ever go along with the fake story about all 4 of them going back to the hotel to drop off Nat? It makes me feel that the answer to Nat’s disappearance will implicate all 3 of them in wrongdoing. Maybe Nat died of a drug while with the Dutch guy but the 2 brothers supplied the drug. I can’t see the 2 innocent people getting them selves this far involved in a false story before changing their mind and saying they went home and the Dutch guy and Nat left together.

Karin Janssen recuse yourself
People with nothing to hide hide nothing


Posted by: seedyrum | Tuesday, August 09, 2005 at 12:48 AM