Lively Case Discussion #487 7/5 - 7/6/2006

[crazybabyborg]

Oh Shoot! I gotta run. I'll be back.................

[thirdstrike]

Does anyone know how long Art Wood worked for the Secret Service? How long ago did he retire?
What branch of the Secret Service did he work in?  Did he just investigate things like bank fraud? Has he ever had any training in missing person or homicide investigations? I am curious what his qualifications are.

All I know is Art Wood found a belt...and it was probably discarded as trash.  What his qualifications are is probably irellevant...

[AZLady]

Does anyone know how long Art Wood worked for the Secret Service? How long ago did he retire?
What branch of the Secret Service did he work in?  Did he just investigate things like bank fraud? Has he ever had any training in missing person or homicide investigations? I am curious what his qualifications are.

If you go to the Dana Pretzer show and listen to Art's introduction, he tells a bit about his background and experience.  It's at: http://bruinfan.sasktelwebsite.net/

[AZLady]

Does anyone know how long Art Wood worked for the Secret Service? How long ago did he retire?
What branch of the Secret Service did he work in?  Did he just investigate things like bank fraud? Has he ever had any training in missing person or homicide investigations? I am curious what his qualifications are.

All I know is Art Wood found a belt...and it was probably discarded as trash.  What his qualifications are is probably irellevant...

Can-o-shit-o

[thirdstrike]

Sorry 'bout the quotes!

Not a problem.  I got your message just fine.  

To elaborate, it actually angers me when it's brought up in here.  Why?  Well, they seem to be celebrated more then criticized.  Many enjoy the "mystery" surrounding their existence...and even enjoy playing their "word games".  Now, I'm no one to judge.  I respect other's right to discuss them.  But, IMO, I think their as full of crap as a Andy Gump at a Swap Meet...

XXX, I don't follow your comments.  What angers you when it's brought up here?  The call from Natalee to her mother's answering machine?  Now, you've lost me about the "mystery" surrounding someone's existence.  Do you mean the Shango/Simian thing?

Sorry about that.  This anger is strictly directed towards the Shango/Simian thing...not the phone call.

My apologies for the confusion...

[ala_gunslinger]

GUNSLINGER,
We are trying today to make a case for charges of kidnapping/abduction something less than murder that could be proven.  We need something concrete like that for proof Natalee was held against her will.

.

Yes, the phone call consisted of the following....

"I don't know these people!"  (you could hear the terror in her voice)

followed by a male voice

"Who are you calling?"  "You're parents?"

then the call disconnects.

I know many people in hear treat this alleged call as gospel truth, but I have to admit to still being skeptical of it's existence...at least in it's current form (as described above). If it did, in fact, exist exactly as described, wouldn't the FBI have been able to identify the voices through testing?  And, if so, wouldn't they have a good, solid peice of evidence to use in a prosecution?

Third, I am sorry you don't believe me.  But I heard it.  Believe what you want.  That is you're right.

Can I ask how you heard it?  And, it's not that I don't believe you did.  That's not in dispute.  I have no reason to believe you'd lie to me.  It's just that, I guess I am skeptical it's Natalee on the other end...

To ask the question again though...why hasn't there been any voice anaylsis tests done to determine it to be (without doubt)?

Of course, KKK.  It was on the television.  Greta.  that is why an MB'r has to re-save the msg, every so often.  Greta did not play it during the last interview with her friends(2nd opportunity).  It's the evidence that will kick this into high gear, and remove all doubt.

[Tylergal]

GUNSLINGER,
We are trying today to make a case for charges of kidnapping/abduction something less than murder that could be proven.  We need something concrete like that for proof Natalee was held against her will.

.

Yes, the phone call consisted of the following....

"I don't know these people!"  (you could hear the terror in her voice)

followed by a male voice

"Who are you calling?"  "You're parents?"

then the call disconnects.

If this call is known fact, why hasn't there been a voice analysis? Her voice is available on videos "seat belt buckling" and one of the students has a message from her saved. I'm sure there are more. If that were proven, I would think it would be known. Am I missing something? I thought Dave said he didn't think it was Natalee.

Different call.  That's the one from Mexico (alledgedly) that Dave does not think is Natalee, thinks it was a mixed up line or kids playing on phone where the young female voice says something to the effect:  "Momma, I am still here."

[AZLady]

And you are correct in that any evidence introduced into court, in the form of a phone call, or other media, would need to be verified by reliable testing.  I'm sure that is done before it is considered as evidence to be brought into court.  Otherwise, it would be thrown out.  Just because WE don't have the verification or the evidence does not mean it does not exist.

[thirdstrike]

Of course, KKK.  It was on the television.  Greta.  that is why an MB'r has to re-save the msg, every so often.  Greta did not play it during the last interview with her friends(2nd opportunity).  It's the evidence that will kick this into high gear, and remove all doubt.

Wait, it's "XXX" not "KKK".  Don't want to give folks the wrong impression, dig??  

Now, you say you heard the actual message itself on TV?  To date, I've never heard it on any show I know of.  Have it saved anywhere?

[ala_gunslinger]

Of course, KKK.  It was on the television.  Greta.  that is why an MB'r has to re-save the msg, every so often.  Greta did not play it during the last interview with her friends(2nd opportunity).  It's the evidence that will kick this into high gear, and remove all doubt.

Wait, it's "XXX" not "KKK".  Don't want to give folks the wrong impression, dig??  

Now, you say you heard the actual message itself on TV?  To date, I've never heard it on any show I know of.  Have it saved anywhere?

Well, from a stats keeper, are they lookin, or are they swingin?  Reason I ask is tha I have my kids stats in score-it from the first time they picked up a baseball.

[Tylergal]

There isn't any evidence to support a kidnapping charge.  I wish there was, but there isn't.  Statement to Alana doesn't help much because there's no way to prove Natalee didn't change her mind about going straight back to her hotel after getting in the car.  I'm not even convinced she was kidnapped, it's possible she may have willingly gotten out with Joran at the Mariott beach, expecting only a romantic stroll in the moonlight, and if Joran then raped and murdered her there he'd be guilty of those crimes but not kidnapping.

I don't post very often, but statements such as the above really bother me.  The fact that Natalee told Alana she was going back to the HI is most certainly evidence that she expected to be taken back to the HI, and would be evidence of kidnapping.  It would be up to the defense to then present evidence that Natalee changed her mind, and let the trier of fact (judge or jury) decide if a kidnapping occurred.  I can't say it would be enough to convict, because I don't know much about criminal law, and of course in Aruba there is no jury, only judges, but there is certainly evidence of a kidnapping.  There's a big difference between no evidence, and possibly not enough to convict.  Whether there is enough to bring a case to trial is a subjective determination that is made by the prosecutor.  Anyway, there is evidence.

Take a cue.  Just ignore anyone who appears to have an agenda.

[thirdstrike]

And you are correct in that any evidence introduced into court, in the form of a phone call, or other media, would need to be verified by reliable testing.  I'm sure that is done before it is considered as evidence to be brought into court.  Otherwise, it would be thrown out.  Just because WE don't have the verification or the evidence does not mean it does not exist.

I agree with this 100%!  It's just that, I'm the type that relies on more tangible things to persuade me...ya know?  Faith is a different story, however.  I believe the (3) had as much more to do with Natalee's disappearance then they didn't.  Don't need tangible evidence to tell me that though...

[ala_gunslinger]

There isn't any evidence to support a kidnapping charge.  I wish there was, but there isn't.  Statement to Alana doesn't help much because there's no way to prove Natalee didn't change her mind about going straight back to her hotel after getting in the car.  I'm not even convinced she was kidnapped, it's possible she may have willingly gotten out with Joran at the Mariott beach, expecting only a romantic stroll in the moonlight, and if Joran then raped and murdered her there he'd be guilty of those crimes but not kidnapping.

I don't post very often, but statements such as the above really bother me.  The fact that Natalee told Alana she was going back to the HI is most certainly evidence that she expected to be taken back to the HI, and would be evidence of kidnapping.  It would be up to the defense to then present evidence that Natalee changed her mind, and let the trier of fact (judge or jury) decide if a kidnapping occurred.  I can't say it would be enough to convict, because I don't know much about criminal law, and of course in Aruba there is no jury, only judges, but there is certainly evidence of a kidnapping.  There's a big difference between no evidence, and possibly not enough to convict.  Whether there is enough to bring a case to trial is a subjective determination that is made by the prosecutor.  Anyway, there is evidence.

Take a cue.  Just ignore anyone who appears to have an agenda.

You got that right.  I just want to further express my feelings about this case.  

I do it for Justice!

[AZLady]

Of course, KKK.  It was on the television.  Greta.  that is why an MB'r has to re-save the msg, every so often.  Greta did not play it during the last interview with her friends(2nd opportunity).  It's the evidence that will kick this into high gear, and remove all doubt.

Wait, it's "XXX" not "KKK".  Don't want to give folks the wrong impression, dig??  

Now, you say you heard the actual message itself on TV?  To date, I've never heard it on any show I know of.  Have it saved anywhere?

XXX, I agree with your sig line that if Shango/Simian have evidence or knowledge they should share it with the appropriate authorities.  Now, I have to assume that S/S are people who may have some information, and the FBI have known about them for some time.  That's a given.  However, it doesn't erase the reality that they were playing what I considered a political game here.  Their posts are heavily laded with Carribean political references.  The political scene in Aruba and the Carribean is unsettled and the internet is a medium political groups use to get their messages across.  I really believe the S/S posts were political statements using this case as a springboard.   Hopefully, there are some helpful hints in their posts for the FBI, but I think they were writing it as they wished it to be, not as it was.

[ala_gunslinger]

bb in a minute, transferring to the upstairs network....

[Tylergal]

There isn't any evidence to support a kidnapping charge.  I wish there was, but there isn't.  Statement to Alana doesn't help much because there's no way to prove Natalee didn't change her mind about going straight back to her hotel after getting in the car.  I'm not even convinced she was kidnapped, it's possible she may have willingly gotten out with Joran at the Mariott beach, expecting only a romantic stroll in the moonlight, and if Joran then raped and murdered her there he'd be guilty of those crimes but not kidnapping.

I don't post very often, but statements such as the above really bother me.  The fact that Natalee told Alana she was going back to the HI is most certainly evidence that she expected to be taken back to the HI, and would be evidence of kidnapping.  It would be up to the defense to then present evidence that Natalee changed her mind, and let the trier of fact (judge or jury) decide if a kidnapping occurred.  I can't say it would be enough to convict, because I don't know much about criminal law, and of course in Aruba there is no jury, only judges, but there is certainly evidence of a kidnapping.  There's a big difference between no evidence, and possibly not enough to convict.  Whether there is enough to bring a case to trial is a subjective determination that is made by the prosecutor.  Anyway, there is evidence.

Take a cue.  Just ignore anyone who appears to have an agenda.

You got that right.  I just want to further express my feelings about this case.  

I do it for Justice!

I think that you and I and many others are here for that reason, for Natalee, for Beth, Dave and their family, friends and want to see justice take place.  Sometimes, however, some come along with a different agenda.  It's sad but true.

[thirdstrike]

Of course, KKK.  It was on the television.  Greta.  that is why an MB'r has to re-save the msg, every so often.  Greta did not play it during the last interview with her friends(2nd opportunity).  It's the evidence that will kick this into high gear, and remove all doubt.

Wait, it's "XXX" not "KKK".  Don't want to give folks the wrong impression, dig??  

Now, you say you heard the actual message itself on TV?  To date, I've never heard it on any show I know of.  Have it saved anywhere?

Well, from a stats keeper, are they lookin, or are they swingin?  Reason I ask is tha I have my kids stats in score-it from the first time they picked up a baseball.

Yeah, I get the "SO" thing for sure (in the form of "K's").  It's just that, some may not be so knowledgeable in sports terminology, and instead may believe I am wearing a wife beater with overalls...drive a truck, and wear a muttlet under a dixie flag mesh cap while burning crosses on my front lawn (dirt, actually).  I just don't want to confuse people...

[thirdstrike]

OK, I got to run.  Work is through, and I need to get out of this office!!  

Talk to you all later (hopefully)...

Strike

[AZLady]

XXX, we're all pretty savvy to the old double entendre!

[yapperz1]

Hiya Monkeys... finally caught up!!!
Tyler I have some of Melody's posts from RWV.