Lively Case Discussion #538 10/26 - 10/29/2005

[klaasend]

Shango Says:
June 30th, 2005 at 2:07 am
If the keystone falls, it will crush the lamb, the shivas, and the elder
the noise of the crashing arch shall scare the lions from their den
DirtyHand is the key to All!

The Natural Bridge collapses on September 2, 2005

Joran is released from Kia on September 4, 2005
   

[San]

Shango Says:
June 30th, 2005 at 2:07 am
If the keystone falls, it will crush the lamb, the shivas, and the elder
the noise of the crashing arch shall scare the lions from their den
DirtyHand is the key to All!

The Natural Bridge collapses on September 2, 2005

Joran is released from Kia on September 4, 2005
   

   

[Kat_Gram]

Here is a lnk I just found with an early timeline thing. It was put together way before any release of suspect statements.

Things we know
Edit/Add Correct at will.....

General
Natalee's room was ground floor with a patio door opening onto the beach - Megan Whatley and Ruth McVey are her roomates

5/27
"Shouting Match" between Joran and boys from MB (Per Brian Reynolds, MB Student)
Account from "Jug" Twitty, Ed Kissel and 2 MB Students and others that Natalee met Joran this day

5/28
Snorkle Cruise W/Other MB Students

5/29
7PM-11:30PM "Soul Beach" Final Concert - Some MB (Natalee??) Students Attend
Natalees Whereabouts For Day Per MB Student Jamie Justice
10AM Natalee at Beach and HI Pool With Friends all day
8:00PMJoran: (Per Tape) Arrives @ Exactly 7:51:10 pm
8:30PM Natalee has dinner with friends at HI
9:00PM Natalee: (Per Tape) Arrives @ Exactly 8:58:26
9:30PM Natalee at HI Casino - Talks with Joran VDS
11PM Natalee at C&CH's
Account from friends that Natalee approached/met Joran at the HI Casino where he was in a Poker Tournamant (confirmed, placed 4th) - asked him to meet her at C&CH's that night (per NH friends - Frances Byrd & Ruth McVay)
Joran played Poker with Natalee's Cousin Thomas at HI Casino (per People Mag/Thomas)
Joran "hung out" with MB group at HI Sunday Afternoon (per People Mag/Thomas and Hunter)
Joran supposed to be at concert till 11 PM - Dad picked him up at McDonalds at 11PM (per P VDS)
Joran sneaks out and meets Kalpoe Bros to go to C&CH's (arrive midnight?)

Monday 5/30/05
Midnight Natalee is already at C&CH's with group of aprox 40 students and 1 chaperone from MB
Indications from those present are that Natalee was drinking while there
Joran, Deepak and Satish Arrive at C&CH's - Joran buys at least one drink
12:50 AM C&CH's Master Of Ceremonies Jose Hernandez sees Natalee And Joran leave front door of club together. Others report the 4 (Deepak, Satish, Joran and Natalee) all depart at the same time. Due to crowd and milling around out front exact departure time is unknown but est to be between 1 and 1:20 AM. Confirmed- 12:50 to 1:00 am C&C's is emptied out.
2:00 (Aprox) Satish Home - Logged In Online (Reports say Satish is often online from 2-5am)
2:15 Joran contacts Deepak (text message) supposedly asking for a ride home CNN reports call came from east tower
Confirmed- Satish gives Joran a ride home.
3:00-4:00 Not Confirmed Phone call(s) from Aruba to Alabama possibly made from a cell phone handled by Charles Croes' Company - message left - no info as to content
3:20 Joran contacts Deepak (e-mail) and supposedly says he doesn't need ride and is home CNN reports call came from east tower
4:55 Sunrise Begins
6:30 Not Confirmed E-mail or Text meassage to Steve Croes by Joran or Deepak
6:40 Joran on School Bus (at School All Day)
8:00 Ruth Mc Vay calls Beth (Aruba time) Per SP
10:00 Chaperone on Dan Abrams-huge discrepancies included:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chaperone:Bob Plummer teacher and chaperone.
The next morning when checking passports, checking off the list, I met with the kids every day, we met with them everyday, physically seen each one of them. We knew where they were, the next morning we went to wake them up, we went to each room to wake them up, get their stuff together so they woudn't miss the bus, we had two separate charters, when we got that first bus off and were getting the 2nd group together, we realized Natalee was missing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


10:30 MB Students to meet in Lobby - Natalee Does Not Appear - Friend Brings Luggage From Natalee's Room to Lobby
11:30 Chaperone Paul Lilly Notifies Local Authorities And Trip Planner Jody Bearman That Natalee Is Missing - Begins Search At Hotel
MB Students Depart for Airport
2:00PM Flight Departs With MB Students
Jody Bearman (Trip Planner) Notifies Beth Twitty that Natalee is missing - calls 1st Home (leaves message) and then reaches her by Cell Phone
Beth Twitty Attempts to call 911, is stopped driving 110 in-route to AL - with help of Highway Patrol contacts FBI after playing message from Jody Bearman that Natalee is missing in Aruba
5:00 Twitty Group Prepares to leave for Aruba on private jet owned by Ruffner Page Jr - President of McWane Inc
Marcia Twitty meets with MB Students/Chaperones arriving home
11:00PM Private Jet arrives in Aruba - met by LE - several people (at least on board with Beth And Jug including Ruffner Page Jr
Twitty's Immediately go to Holiday Inn where they meet with Chaperone Lilly, DEA Agent, FBI Agent and then begin trying to identify (by full name) Joran.

Tuesday 5/31/05
12:30 Twitty Group Meets with Charles Croes regarding 3AM call/cell phones, Joran - Gets location of Van Der Sloot Home
1:30 Twitty Group Goes to Van Der Sloot home with Police - Demand to know where Joran AND NATALEE are
2:00 Told that Joran is at Wyndham Casino Aruban Police Swarm Casino Floor with Guns drawn - begin questioning staff as to whereabouts of Joran AND NATALEE - pictures are shown of Natalee
Based on questioning by Police the assumption by staff is that Joran and Natalee are together - but they have seen only Joran
2:30AM Twitty Group returns to Van Der Sloot Home upon being told Joran is there
Twitty's demand Joran "give Natalee to them"
3:00AM Joran and Paul Van Der Sloot return to Holiday Inn with the Twittys and meet for aprox 2 hours (with Police present) by the end Paul has told Joran to stop talking and told the Twittys they do not know where Natalee is and are returning home
Beth Twitty confronts Joran in the parking lot again demanding the return of Natalee "where is my daughter?"- In response Joran pounds chest and says "what do you want me to do?"
Joran and the Kalpoe Bros were brought in and 1st questioned by authorities
The silver Honda is searched for evidence
While the questioning was going on the phones (regular and cell) of the boys were tapped and GPS tracking placed on their cars - computers were also monitored
3 boys told the 1st story of going to lighthouse and dropping Natalee at the Hol Inn and seeing the security guard
Hol Inn tapes reviewed again by Natalee's parents - Did not see Natalee
All Dumpsters and landfill now monitored

6/1
The 2 security guards who had been working at the hotel next door (Allegro) were arrested
Info released that the hotel next door is closed for rennovation except for the bar and Casino and the property is searched By LE
Lighthouse area is searched - bloody mattress found - not human blood
FBI involved - FBI divers come and go home without searching
Island-wide searches ongoing - Poster changed to "Missing"



I want to know why Charlie Croes went up to the lighthouse.
Also, the chaperone called the police station and found out that the beach patrol had not reported Natalee missing.

[Kat_Gram]

Sorry, I did not even know of that's sites existence. I did not know it was an ugly one until I looked at some of the other topics, posts. It can be removed if you want to poof it.

[robots]

 

pvds in the back.. now that is funny    

excellent!!

i can barely type im laughing so hard  

[klaasend]

Sorry, I did not even know of that's sites existence. I did not know it was an ugly one until I looked at some of the other topics, posts. It can be removed if you want to poof it.

I just posted the first few days of the timeline and took out the link.  Is that OK?

[mrs. red]

anybody home??

[anidac]

Shango Says:
June 30th, 2005 at 2:07 am
If the keystone falls, it will crush the lamb, the shivas, and the elder
the noise of the crashing arch shall scare the lions from their den
DirtyHand is the key to All!

The Natural Bridge collapses on September 2, 2005

Joran is released from Kia on September 4, 2005
   

Hummm!

[Kat_Gram]

Yes, that is good. I also have the Greta interview with David Kock dated August 23, 2005

Greta Van Susteren: Deepak and Satish Kalpoe were arrested on June 9 and then they were released on July 4. They are free men tonight, but they are both considered suspects.  Earlier this evening, we spoke with Satish Kalpoe's lawyer, David Kock.  


David, today the court ruled what?.... and on what particular motion?
.
David Kock: Well, Mr.Van der Sloot's attorneys stated that they were not getting the documents as fast as it should be, or not getting all the documents, and they also asked to get a copy of all the video-taped interrogations of all the three suspects. The DA, during in the trial, stated that they are giving all the documents, so the judge did not grant that.  The judge stated, that everything should be, of course,  made available to Mr. Van der Sloot and since the video tapes of interrogation are also part of the dossier, they also have to be, now, handed over to Van der Sloot.
.

.
Greta Van Susteren:  David, did your client, Satish Kalpoe, did he join in this motion, or have a separate motion, or is this motion about documents and videotapes only relate to Joran van der Sloot?
..
 David Kock:  No, it was only submitted by Van der Sloot, we were not of the opinion that the documents were being withheld for Satish Kalpoe. And for us.. At the moment, the video tapes don't play such an important part, so that's why we did not submit such a motion.  But, I understood,  I already spoke also with the DA and in the fair process that should be made available also to us, just, you know, to treat everybody equally.
.
Greta Van Susteren: Do you have all the text messages or any wire tapped transcripts that may exist?
.
David Kock:  Up to now, we have the ones that are relevant, so that's why we are actually comfortable with our investigation at this moment and how it's developed.
.
Greta Van Susteren: Is there any text message, which indicates when Satish and Deepak were home, is there anyway to figure that out?

.
David Kock: Yes, there are internet records that show the time that Deepak got home, of course, we do not have any for Satish, because he went home,as you know, and went to his  bedroom, went to sleep in his bedroom , there's no computer,  he wasn't either on the phone anymore, but his brother Deepak was and for that we already have the records and that is also what we indicated during the hearing of the so-called gardner, when he stated at a certain time he saw the three there, whereas we had concrete proof that that was just not possible.
.
Greta Van Susteren:  David, at what point was Deepak on the internet and what was the time that the gardener claimed to say he saw the three?
.
David Kock: There are records to indicate that around 2 o'clock already, Deepak is back on the internet while the.. and from there on, also almost 3:00 o'clock while the gardener said that at 2 30...  that he's so convinced that at two thrity, he saw the three of  them next to the .Racquet club  So, it's just physically that's impossible.
.
Greta Van Susteren:  So, as best I can piece together... Your client is with Deepak they are brothers they live together,  so presumably your client was  home was as well at 2 o'ccock Is that consistent with what your evidence is?
.
David Kock: I think that is a very logical assumption also...  no?

.
Greta Van Susteren:  Is there any evidence David, cell records or internet records  to place Joran any particular place at any particular time?
.
David Kock: No, I mean there are the phone records of when, you know, when he called Deepak, as you know, around 2:40, and then afterwards a little bit after 3 o'clock, and there have been some triangulation to indicate where he was, so that is consistent with the area where he was supposed to be, so in that aspect that is also covered. So, you know, the story matches the facts as it stands right now.
.
Greta Van Susteren: All right, so your client 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock  is on the internet at home.  I've been in his room,  I've seen the computer or I saw where it was. . He gets phone calls at 2:40 and 3:00 o'clock from Joran. Where do the cell phone records place the phone that Joran is using at 2:40 and 3:00 o'clock in the morning
.
David Kock: Ah, that is not an exact pinpoint indication, but the general area is the area here in north of palm beach of the hotels
.

Greta Van Susteren:  So, it looks like he is not home at that hour,. but someplace near the Mariott  is that right?
.
David Kock: That is, that is correct, he is in this neighborhood.

Greta Van Susteren:  Is there any explanation of how he got from .the hotel to his home?

David Kock: No, other than what my client state that he heard or was told by Joran, is that he went home walking, but, you know, we don't have any way to verify it... as I indicated in the past, on the path from here to his house, there are certain banks, gas stations, et cetera, that had video cameras that filming the streets, but they just keep it for a couple of days , so by the time they went, uh the police went there to ask to get these video tapes they were already wiped out, so, you know,  we cannot confirm it by any other means.
.
Greta: David, what time does does your client, I take it he dropped Joran and Natalee off, what time does he place the drop off?
.
David Kock: Ah, look, he states that he gets home around 1:50, so it should be between five and ten minutes, you know at that time of night there is not much traffic, so it would only take between five to ten minutes for him to get home from this area.

Greta Van Susteren:  David, is there any legal evidence of a murder, anyplace?
.

 David Kock:  Not at all Greta.  At this moment there are no hard evidence, just logical deductions.  You know, somebody's missing, doesn't show up. And the last person that suposedly  was with her cannot give a reasonable explanation of what happened, but, that's it.
.
Greta Van Susteren: What is that the phone call 2:40 in the morning between Joran and your client was about? What were they talking about?
,
David Kock: Of course, that was not with my client, but my client said that what he was saying was that he was walking home, that he left the girl on the beach, and that he's walking home.. and afterwards, the call after 3:00 o'clock was to actually call in and say that he got home.  So,  you know, if you look at the distance that it would take you to walk that also concurs with the elapsed time between the two phone calls.
.
Greta Van Susteren: Natalee Holloway was seen leaving an Aruba bar with Joran van der Sloot, Deepak Kalpoe and Satish Kalpoe. Satish's lawyer, David Kock, gave us a step-by-step description of what happened that night after they left the bar.
.
Greta (to David): Do you know if Joran made any statements at any time, even after that night, to either Deepak or your client about what happened to Natalee, about leaving Natalee, any information at all?
.
David Kock: No, not any more additional information. That was not made available to my client. They didn't talk about it. First, they just trusted their friend, you know, as a lot of times young friends do. You know, they totally trusted their friend said. They didn't have a reason to doubt what he was saying. Of course, now it might sound otherwise.
.
Greta Van Susteren: Did Satish, your client, meet with Paul van der Sloot and Deepak and Joran?
.
David Kock: Yes — let's say, not that it was a meeting, no. I mean, these are friends that visited the house of Joran and the father, so it wasn't like a meeting was arranged and they just came for that meeting. They just were there, spoke with the father, like also happened before May 30.

Greta Van Susteren: But after May 30, after Natalee disappeared, did they meet with Paul? And did Paul give them any advice or give them any information about the investigation?
.

David Kock: Yes. When they were, after that day, at the house, on one occasion, you know, the father explained to them how a criminal procedure would be, but that was, according to my client, the only scope of that encounter, if one might call it like that.
.
 Greta Van Susteren: How did your client describe what happened when they left Carlos and Charlie's? What did he say happened when they departed?
.

David Kock: Oh, you know, that when they left the place going towards their car, that Joran showed up with that girl, that the girl was going to drive with them in the car, that they drove around. But first, they also met a couple of friends of the disappeared girl, who told her, why doesn't she get out of the car, and she said, no, that she was going to drive around. They drove around, drove to the lighthouse, and then coming back towards the high-rises, but Joran asked to be dropped here, next to the Marriott, and that the two of them got out of the car and that they left. And for them, that was the end of it. Greta Van Susteren: And your client then went home as a passenger in his brother, Deepak's, car, is that what he said? David Kock: Correct. Correct. That is the case.
.
Greta Van Susteren: Deepak's car has been torn apart, looking for any information possible. Is there anything that was — any DNA that was taken out of that car, in any — you know, whether it's saliva or hair, anything at all?
.
David Kock: No, nothing was found in the car that was relevant to the case. Just remember, if they found, for example, a hair of the disappeared girl in the car, it would still not mean anything because she was in the car. But they didn't find anything that gave an indication that a foul play or that something went wrong in the car, so...

Greta Van Susteren: What was going on in the car as they were driving around? Was there some sort of sexual activity between Joran and Natalee?
.
David Kock: Well, my client indicated, you know, that they were kissing, et cetera, and that it was impolite for him to be turning and looking back, so, you know? That is the only thing that he saw.
.
Greta Van Susteren: Was it getting out of hand at all? Was it getting rough at all or not?
.
David Kock: No, no, not that he noticed any, no.

Greta Van Susteren: What about drugs and alcohol? Was there any — has your client mentioned whether or not either Joran or Natalee or both seemed under the influence?

David Kock: No. Look, they had been drinking, both of those two. I mean, you know, she was lying on the bar, and jelly shots were being drunk from her navel. They were drinking. I mean, that's a fact. But according to my client, not that, you know, they were stupidly drunk.
.

Greta Van Susteren: When you say they drove around and they met up with some of Natalee's friends, do you know where that was? David Kock: That was at the intersection next to the bus terminal. I think that group of — I don't know if I can call them classmates or travel mates, in any case — we assume that they were standing there to await taxis to go — to get back to the hotel. Greta Van Susteren: Any idea who they were, their names?
.
David Kock: No. No. I mean, they are in the file, but not that I know on the top of my head. And we didn't find it necessary to really go too much into that. They have stated that. I mean, they have stated that, you know? They asked her to get out, and that she said no, that she was going to stay in the car and drive home — back with Joran, so...
.

Greta Van Susteren: What do you make of the fact that, apparently, on this June 13 declaration, Joran says — at least, we're told — that Deepak raped and murdered — I think raped and buried, or something like that, Natalee? Do you know anything about that?
.

David Kock: Yes. No, that was a statement that was given. I think, though, it's — because I saw it, too, that it appeared here in the newspaper. But I think you have to put it into context, that that was just one of the stories that Joran told, and that afterwards, he has changed his story again. It wasn't a statement that he signed, it was something that the police said that he declared during a conversation, that he said, yes, something must have gone wrong with the girl. And then when they asked him, What do you think, and he says, Well, I think maybe after I got — because that was at a time when he was stating that Deepak came and picked him up here and dropped him at home, which was also impossible because of the records afterwards, but at that time, he did not know that. So he came up with that story that Deepak picked him up, dropped him at home, and he assumed that something went wrong, so that maybe, Deepak, knowing that the girl was here lying on the beach, came back and then did something to the girl and then bury her, no? But yes, I don't know if that was a story told, you know, as a joke, if it was maybe speaking as in a third person type of situation. I mean, but what we know is that afterwards, his statements have changed, so, you know? We don't have to only focus on that one.
.

Greta Van Susteren: David, thank you very much. I hope you'll come back as the case progresses. Thank you. David Kock: Ok. You're welcome. Take care, Greta.

[Florida]

I want to know why Charlie Croes went up to the lighthouse.
Also, the chaperone called the police station and found out that the beach patrol had not reported Natalee missing.

What I would like to know-

Which scuba company did the MB students use?

One that employs Geoffrey?
Is he the "local guy" seen with Natalee?

And, Charles Croes...
Which beach did he know to find a group of boys at...2 am on a Tues.?
Arashi beach?  Where Deepak had stopped the night before?

"Joran said" they were 300 yards from the Marriott...
Why not have his ride pick him up there?

[nonesuche]

Looks like a taxi to me    

you have outdone yourself this week      

[klaasend]

Nonesuche - wait until you see the bus I'm working on..will have it done a little later tonight, lol    

[Sam]

Hi Monkeys,
Thanks San for noticing I was on and Hi to you. I had a real long post made and lost my connection before i could copy and paste it. So maybe this one will be shorter.

I have not been posting lately. I do not know if anyone noticed. LOL  I was dissapointed in all the infighting that was taking place.I have never gave up on hoping for justice for Natalee and her family. I do think this post is going to upset some and I also hope they will get over it.

All of our Monkeys contribute something to this forum.

I also miss alot of our Monkeys who no longer post.

It really bothers me to see the no tiaras in some of the signature lines. If you go back and read the post that caused all that you may come to the same conclusion I did when reading it the first time. MW (making waves).
Hey Darleen I am making waves and I am not brownnosing either so don't be accusing me. LOL

When Tyler and Mermaid had the misunderstanding and I begged Tyler to stay, I should have also begged Mermaid to stay as well. For that I feel guilty. I am so glad Tyler stayed but I wish Mermaid would come back as well. I do believe a stepparent can love as much as a real parent.

I miss seeing Easy post as well. I should have logged in the night he was on and suggested we go to Easys place and invite others to join us.We have every single one of us been guilty of off topic conversations and I think Easy was in one of his hurting moods that night. He has contributed so much to this case also with his link to Jossy. Oh I know I am leaving some of our former posters out here and I am sorry but please come back.

I know we have been hoodwinked by some of our former Aruban posters but I do not think by all of them. With that said, I welcome KBM. He also maybe searching for answers. If they are to be found it is the Monkeys who have them. This is a post I made to him on his OT thread.

KBM,
welcome to Scared Monkeys.

 I have not posted for awhile because of all the infighting. So I do want you to be aware that your first night here and the annoyance some showed toward you really had nothing to do with you.

What it really involved was alot of us Monkeys have invested 17 months of our time trying to discover what happened to Natalee. At times we become very frustrated and wind up taking it out on others. We all just want justice for Natalee.
JMHO

Sam


Ok All you Monkeys I hope this explains to you some of my views. Thanks for reading. It is Just MY Personal Opinion.

Sam

[nonesuche]

Sam-

We're all entitled to our opinions but to be called a fraud as I was by Darleen, well I don't have to tolerate it, nor being called a merry widow. You are mistaken in that regard. I also never once said one word to you regarding your relationships with refugees posters OR your posting at Refugees, something I found disturbing and also reduced the trust I had posting beside you here. So I invite you to allow others the same freedom you have enjoyed in the past.

The rest of your "issues" aren't my concern nor my domain. If you have a direct issue with me again, at least afford me the decency to be direct with ME. Darleen has my email address and since you are such good friends, you can surely obtain it from her.

Klaas my rant is over I promise, and I am really looking forward to your bus later tonight, comic relief is a GOOD THING !! Thank heavens for you !!

[Kat_Gram]

Well, I do hope that that bus has ppl being under it.
bbl can hardly wait, actually.

[klaasend]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

Halloween Weekend Caption Contest

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/10/28/halloween-weekend-caption-contest/

 

[Sam]

Sam-

We're all entitled to our opinions but to be called a fraud as I was by Darleen, well I don't have to tolerate it, nor being called a merry widow. You are mistaken in that regard. I also never once said one word to you regarding your relationships with refugees posters OR your posting at Refugees, something I found disturbing and also reduced the trust I had posting beside you here. So I invite you to allow others the same freedom you have enjoyed in the past.

Oh Shoot I think I may have mesed up your quote.

Nonesuch my post was never directed at you. I am sorry if you think it was. If that is how you really took Darleens post I can understand your doing the no Tiaras in your signature line and I never said a word about it when you had it but yours was only for a few days.

Yes I did post at the old Refugees. I never hid it and everything I ever posted there was either in support of Natalee or an argument with a poster Sami or with Sandrak. Because of me calling Sandrak a liar I was not invited to join the current Refugees.

[Sam]

Wow I really messed up that last post and do not have a clue how to fix it.
I hope you can get the message None. Again I do not have any problems with you or any of our posters. I just do not like losing any.

[Kat_Gram]

I want to know why Charlie Croes went up to the lighthouse.
Also, the chaperone called the police station and found out that the beach patrol had not reported Natalee missing.

What I would like to know-

Which scuba company did the MB students use?

One that employs Geoffrey?
Is he the "local guy" seen with Natalee?

And, Charles Croes...
Which beach did he know to find a group of boys at...2 am on a Tues.?
Arashi beach?  Where Deepak had stopped the night before?

"Joran said" they were 300 yards from the Marriott...
Why not have his ride pick him up there?

Why does the scuba company figure into this ?
Geoffrey was not with Natalee that Sunday night.
Why the posts about Hiram ?

[Shell]

BOO-just popping out of lurk mode to say Happy Halloween weekend to you all.