Natalee Case Discussion #815 4/8/09 - 4/16/09

[texasmom]

So....

Do we like the calm waters or do we want to rock the boat?

     



 

 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FfBwsG8ubFw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/FfBwsG8ubFw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

 

[Keepthefaith]

So....

Do we like the calm waters or do we want to rock the boat?

     



 

I'm ready...

[hotping]

Rock the Boat......Please!

I've got to go pickup My taxes to get in the mail but I'll Be back to see the Rocking Boat!   

[texasmom]

I'll bbl too!   

[antunym]

Hello everyone I hope you all had a good Easter!!  There is something that I don't understand..In some of Kyle Kingman's own words he talks about video footage and then sometimes he talks about pictures.  I don't know if this has been discussed or I may have missed it, but if there is a video where does it exist and what is on it that we have not seen.  Is there more evidence of a cover-up??

[Tamikosmom]

Hello everyone I hope you all had a good Easter!!  There is something that I don't understand..In some of Kyle Kingman's own words he talks about video footage and then sometimes he talks about pictures.  I don't know if this has been discussed or I may have missed it, but if there is a video where does it exist and what is on it that we have not seen.  Is there more evidence of a cover-up??

antunym ... I do believe that pictures/images that have been revealed by Kyle Kingman have been taken from the ROV video/footage.

Janet

++++++


ROV IMAGES

Video 1 - December 29, 2007













Images:  Kyle Kingman


Video 2 - December 30, 2007





Images: Kyle Kingman


Video 3 - January 7, 2008





Images: Kyle Kingman

[Tamikosmom]

To calculate the diagonal you multiply the length of one side of the square by the square root of 2.

Credit: Klaas

[Tamikosmom]

THE VIDEOS - THE FOOTAGE

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »

There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.

Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap. (very small clip of this video on Dateline). Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor. The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.

Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap. This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH. I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted. I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI. Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me. After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me. I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't. Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.

Video 3: Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap. The trap was not recovered. Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis. Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets. None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047;topicseen#msg360047

[Tamikosmom]

THE VIDEOS - THE FOOTAGE

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »

There were three ROV dive videos of the trap.

Video 1 : 29th Dec - ROV visual inspection of the trap. (very small clip of this video on Dateline). Remember, the Dateline footage was taken over our shoulders by filming the ROV monitor. The footage is not the recorded ROV footage.

Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap. This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH. I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted. I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI. Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me. After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me. I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't. Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.

Video 3: Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap. The trap was not recovered. Recovered samples sent for forensic analysis. Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.

Several hours of footage were of other dives on other targets. None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047;topicseen#msg360047

The above implies that the images/pictures are referred to by Kyle Kingman as screen shots or screen captures of the videos/footage.

Janet

BUMPED

[Lifesong]

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -  on: December 30, 2008, 08:21:35 PM
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg604204#msg604204
 

Quote from: ldstlou on December 30, 2008, 08:21:35 PM

Quote from: Keepthefaith on December 30, 2008, 08:15:20 PM

When was the last time Kyle was on the Freebird's site??Wingnut?If you can answer..I don't think he's typing anything anymore for a good reason!

He is still typing. he adressed jen's letter line by line and e-mailed it to both Jug and I tonight. I am satisfied with his answers.

Did "the leak" ever share Kyle's point by point response with you guys, Jen? 


<<snipped>>

Apart from addressing the complete hypocrisy of ldstlou posting Kyle's email after repeatedly attacking Kermit....

We should also discuss what Kyle actually had to say....


original link to this post

   

   ldstlou
   Re: The Cage
« Reply #119 on: March 19, 2009, 09:42:27 am »
 

<<snipped>>

The last posts are taken from the e-mail that Kyle sent to Jug and I in December that I have shown you all. As you all saw, there was no "conspiracy" on the part of John Silvetti and the members of the Persistence as per Kyle.

Some exerts:


Quote
I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson.  This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with.  The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections.  I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum.  I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.



Quote
About half of what said was opinion, which I clearly stated.  They used a lot of my words taken out of context and confused opinions with facts.



Quote
I didn't dodge questions.  I didn't have this information.  I disappeared from the board because I was working offshore of Norway in the North Sea and also in remote places in North Africa and Egypt.  I was gone from July through September. When I came back, I logged into the forum and saw they were about to release this grand document containing basically everything I said or posted.  Much of it I knew was incorrect and based on opinion.  I didn't agree with this, knowing it was inaccurate and also it was understood that nothing I posted was to be made public.  They pressured me to change my mind and I wouldn't.


Quote
I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this).  Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place.  It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence.



Quote
I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received.  They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap.


Quote
John wasn't refusing to give it any credence before inspection on Jan 7th, he was remaining objective and keeping focused.  I said John wasn't convinced.  He wasn't.  He said he wouldn't be convinced unless he heard otherwise from the FBI.


Quote
Tim Miller went to Nicaragua on his own terms and Dateline followed him.  Tim was chasing down the Nicaraguan lead.  He wasn't removed from the Persistence.

[Lifesong]

Evidently Voldemort The Dark Lard has higher aspirations...and now fancies himself the AntiChrist.     

    

    

[antunym]

 

[antunym]

Thank you Janet your amazing! My only thought to all of this is that if indeed there is an actual video that Kyle got screen shots from then what is missing in these screen captures?  It's like we are given a before and after shot.  If we had the whole video we would know what was collected. Did Kermit get to see the whole video while Kyle was dealing with the freebirds?  I'm sure the whole video would reveal  anything extra (the skirt, bones, etc) If there was only plastic pieces collected from the cage then it would be nothing evidence related and Kyle could show it to prove it right?  JMO

[Lifesong]

Somebody in Houston knew about Dateline before Persistence ever left the US.

   johan555
   Re: The Cage
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 10:51:10 am » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tippster  said  http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Houston, TX   
|

#38
Dec 4, 2007
 
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

[texasmom]

The Dark Lard!   

[texasmom]

o.k. now somebody tell me what the rest of it means!   

[Tamikosmom]

Thank you Janet your amazing! My only thought to all of this is that if indeed there is an actual video that Kyle got screen shots from then what is missing in these screen captures?  It's like we are given a before and after shot.  If we had the whole video we would know what was collected. Did Kermit get to see the whole video while Kyle was dealing with the freebirds?  I'm sure the whole video would reveal  anything extra (the skirt, bones, etc) If there was only plastic pieces collected from the cage then it would be nothing evidence related and Kyle could show it to prove it right?  JMO

Kermit would have to confirm but ... I think we have been privy to all the images that Kyle has revealed.

However ... aside from the images we have been afforded Kyle Kingman's own words regarding his professional interpretation of what the ROV footage revealed.

Janet

++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - QUALIFICATIONS

Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Innovative solutions in ocean exploration. Specializing in Marine GIS, side scan sonar interp and processing, magnetometer/gradiometer processing, hydrographic surveys, project management, reporting, and charting.

Saturday, March 21, 2009

More:
http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/


THE ANALYSIS

The fabric - The Tarp - The vertebrae - The Skull

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand/

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

 Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew. In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the blue fabric swayed in the current.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.

Kyle Kingman:  I am 100% confident other important items are at that site and can be found during processing of the site with a suction system.  The only confirmation of items sampled were blue fabric and the piece of tarp.  This is the only thing Richardson and Mos independantly confirmed.  Remember, they each only confirmed one piece.  One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp.  From the video you see both.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of vertebrae.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.

[Tamikosmom]

Somebody in Houston knew about Dateline before Persistence ever left the US.

   johan555
   Re: The Cage
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 10:51:10 am » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tippster  said  http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Houston, TX   
|

#38
Dec 4, 2007
 
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

 

Does anything know if there was a woman who participated in the Persistence undertaking.  If so ... who was she.

Thank you.

Janet

[klaasend]

FYI - I know the site has gone down alot today.  I've let Dugga know and I'm sure he's working on it.  Might simply be high traffic.

[Tamikosmom]

antunym

There is no proof that Natalee Holloway's remains were in that trap and ... thanks to John Silvetti the family may never know.  According to Kyle Kingman's own words ... Silvetti afforded the enemy possession of the contents of that trap ... the enemy who has prevented justice from prevailing since the getgo.

Janet

++++++

THE BETRAYAL

The Analysis

Kyle Kingman:  We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap.  Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand ...


The Meeting

Kyle Kingman:   On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising.


The Visual Dive

Kyle Kingman:  We had an American diver with us on the Dec 30th dive. We were encouraged to do so and invited by the Arubans. I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman: Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman:  When Tim T. gives one thumb down, he said that it was inconclusive.  He couldn't tell by his own admission.

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.


Tim Miller - A Liability
 
Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.


John Silvetti - Full Control

Kyle Kingman:  I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kyle Kingman: We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap.


The Recovery

Kyle Kingman:  For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman:  I was told to move forward and to forget about the trap. I was told not to show anyone the images.


The Underlying Motve

Kyle Kingman - John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship. I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence.