Natalee Case Discussion #815 4/8/09 - 4/16/09

[Anna]

Thank you Janet your amazing! My only thought to all of this is that if indeed there is an actual video that Kyle got screen shots from then what is missing in these screen captures?  It's like we are given a before and after shot.  If we had the whole video we would know what was collected. Did Kermit get to see the whole video while Kyle was dealing with the freebirds?  I'm sure the whole video would reveal  anything extra (the skirt, bones, etc) If there was only plastic pieces collected from the cage then it would be nothing evidence related and Kyle could show it to prove it right?  JMO

Kermit would have to confirm but ... I think we have been privy to all the images that Kyle has revealed.

However ... aside from the images we have been afforded Kyle Kingman's own words regarding his professional interpretation of what the ROV footage revealed.

Janet

++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - QUALIFICATIONS

Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Innovative solutions in ocean exploration. Specializing in Marine GIS, side scan sonar interp and processing, magnetometer/gradiometer processing, hydrographic surveys, project management, reporting, and charting.

Saturday, March 21, 2009

More:
http://geosolutions.blogspot.com/


THE ANALYSIS

The fabric - The Tarp - The vertebrae - The Skull

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand/

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

 Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew. In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the blue fabric swayed in the current.

Kyle Kingman: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.

Kyle Kingman:  I am 100% confident other important items are at that site and can be found during processing of the site with a suction system.  The only confirmation of items sampled were blue fabric and the piece of tarp.  This is the only thing Richardson and Mos independantly confirmed.  Remember, they each only confirmed one piece.  One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp.  From the video you see both.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of vertebrae.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.

OK, so which parts have we taken out of context and how?

[texasmom]

Somebody in Houston knew about Dateline before Persistence ever left the US.

   johan555
   Re: The Cage
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 10:51:10 am » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tippster  said  http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Houston, TX   
|

#38
Dec 4, 2007
 
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

 

Does anything know if there was a woman who participated in the Persistence undertaking.  If so ... who was she.

Thank you.

Janet

There is a woman in a couple pictures on board the Persistence, but I don't know if she was ever identified.  She may have just been a visitor?

[texasmom]

FYI - I know the site has gone down alot today.  I've let Dugga know and I'm sure he's working on it.  Might simply be high traffic.

Thanks Klaas!   

[Tamikosmom]

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

In November and December 2008 when I spoke to Kyle and he e-mailed Jug and I, he expressed to us, the same assessment of John Silvetti as he did in that March 18th documented post at SM, one of repsect and awe.

Kyle Kingman: I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

Credit: Lifesong


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman - 03/20/08:  Since I got the go ahead from Tim (T), we can legally move forward. The document should follow-up the screen shots and trap content description. We can sent the document after the initial dialog. I trust then she (Beth) will be interested in the document.

The contents of the document should be discussed and agreed upon by the birds. Since I'm new here, I should take a back seat to this IMO. I would think it would be a case synthesis which culminates with the trap contents and lack of interest and motivation to fully process the site. Perhaps Beth will then use the document to create the proper motivation using the information to apply political pressure from both sides. The problem I ran into earlier with the FBI was that their hands are tied to do anything unless they're invited to the party. I think political pressure properly applied will ensure an invite to the party. Thoughts?

Title - perhaps "Case Synthesis and Search Results", or something to that effect.

Credit: Jen

[Tamikosmom]

Somebody in Houston knew about Dateline before Persistence ever left the US.

   johan555
   Re: The Cage
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 10:51:10 am » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tippster  said  http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Houston, TX   
|

#38
Dec 4, 2007
 
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

 

Does anything know if there was a woman who participated in the Persistence undertaking.  If so ... who was she.

Thank you.

Janet

There is a woman in a couple pictures on board the Persistence, but I don't know if she was ever identified.  She may have just been a visitor?

[texasmom]

HT Blonde

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.120

[klaasend]

FYI - I just found out the the "E" channel is showing a repeat of 2008 "The Final Hours of Natalee Holloway" at 5pm tonight PST.

[texasmom]

HT Blonde

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.120

HT Blonde

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.120

[texasmom]

FYI - I just found out the the "E" channel is showing a repeat of 2008 "The Final Hours of Natalee Holloway" at 5pm tonight PST.

Thanks Klaas!   

[Tamikosmom]

Thanks texasmom.

I wonder who she is?

 

Did John Silvetti and the Arubans have a mutually beneficial arrangement in the works prior to the Persistence undertaking ever getting under way?

Could it be that John Silvetti and the Arubans did not anticipate Kyle Kingman undermining the Aruban diver's declaration that nothing significant was in the trap and ... sending ROV screen shots to the FBI?

Could it be that John Silvetti and the Arubans did not anticipate Kyle Kingman sharing his concerns regarding the recovery process with the Natalee's Freebirds?

Janet

[hotping]

Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#38 Dec 4, 2007
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Am I confused or what?  How could this poster have know there was a body found and posted about it on Dec 4 2007...If the Peristence did not find the trap until Dec 25 2007..

 

[texasmom]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_55190.php

Aruba
Easter weekend full of events
14 Apr, 2009, 17:28 (GMT -04:00)



A police car knalde against a wall in the Hard Berna Street in San Nicolas.

ORANGE CITY - During the past Easter weekend was the police and aid workers again quite busy. Last weekend, 120 fines handed out. In connection with the expected crowds at the beaches because of the campers, the road near Eagle Beach compared to control.

The police checked on seatbelts and test card, number plate, traffic speed and alcohol consumption. The public will in the near future even more this type of check can expect, says inspector Ricardo Muller. Notable incidents that took place last weekend were: a woman of Venezuelan origin was raped. The woman wanted to do and no declaration was also rejected by the medical monitor, said police, who have yeast to the reason. Also there were four people on the beach held in connection with drug trafficking, two in Arashi and the other two on Eagle Beach.

There were many accidents on the road to regret including a police car in the Bernard Street in San Nicolas was on its way to a robbery and lost control when a car afsloeg them. Another ambulance was involved in an accident. In the vicinity of San Miguel was a frontal collision between two cars which two were injured. A driver lost control in Kudawecha on the handlebars and landed on his head on the road. The Natural Bridge two tourists were injured after an accident involving a quad racer.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#38 Dec 4, 2007
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Am I confused or what?  How could this poster have know there was a body found and posted about it on Dec 4 2007...If the Peristence did not find the trap until Dec 25 2007..

 

Yes, and the Persistence, as far as we know, had not even arrived until a couple of weeks after 12/4/07.       

[Tamikosmom]

Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#38 Dec 4, 2007
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Am I confused or what?  How could this poster have know there was a body found and posted about it on Dec 4 2007...If the Peristence did not find the trap until Dec 25 2007..

 

Hotping ... similar comments have been submitted to the Boycott Aruba site that imply the trap was discovered prior to the Persistence entering Aruban waters.

Unless the author of the following post had a prophetic vision ... I contend that somebody who was participating in the Persistence undertaking blabbed.  Think about it.  The words in the following post reflect Kyle's words in regards to the contents of the trap.

As Beth Holloway would say "Greta, this is huge."

Janet

++++++

BOYCOTT ARUBA--JUSTICE FOR NATALEE

December 18, 2007

Comments:

DEA can fire on ALE said...
ALE are tapping on the cellphone towers to listen on Persistence's wireless. They bugged the timeshare like Mos did without a court order. Periscopes are mounted on top of the high rises to watch the crew and operations. The Dutch spy satellite is tracking every inch of Persistence's movement. They are very unhappy about the clear sonar images. One image is of a drug submarine sunked by the coast guard. The other one image is the anchor and chain used to weight down a crab cage of a missing American's body. The crab cage is somewhere separated and sitting nearby. Persistence did not provide that image. It may be Natalee is inside the cage. This morning is super emotional and silent. John, Tim and Kyle are studying the closer snapshot of the crab cage. Something look like tennis shoes and a big knife inside. Some bones with some blue fabric around them. Most likely they belong to Natalee. The ALE are waiting for the warrant signed by judge Bob Witt to board Persistence and take over. However, the Persistence has the protection of the DEA helicopters. They can fire the hellfire missiles on the ALE boats. Aruba wants to make Persistence an international crisis to coverup it's cold case.

December 21, 2007 11:33:00 AM EST

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2007/12/just-in-natalees-case-closed.html

[hotping]

Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#38 Dec 4, 2007
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Am I confused or what?  How could this poster have know there was a body found and posted about it on Dec 4 2007...If the Peristence did not find the trap until Dec 25 2007..

 

Yes, and the Persistence, as far as we know, had not even arrived until a couple of weeks after 12/4/07.       

[hotping]

Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#38 Dec 4, 2007
They found her body in a lobster cage 11 miles off of the south shore in Aruba; my aunt was apart of the robotic opperation. Dateline NBC will be breaking the story....

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/aruba/TDL9MI47I6PJE69P7/p2

Am I confused or what?  How could this poster have know there was a body found and posted about it on Dec 4 2007...If the Peristence did not find the trap until Dec 25 2007..

 

Hotping ... similar comments have been submitted to the Boycott Aruba site that imply the trap was discovered prior to the Persistence entering Aruban waters.

Unless the author of the following post had a prophetic vision ... I contend that somebody who was participating in the Persistence undertaking blabbed.  Think about it.  The words in the following post reflect Kyle's words in regards to the contents of the trap.

As Beth Holloway would say "Greta, this is huge."

Janet

++++++

BOYCOTT ARUBA--JUSTICE FOR NATALEE

December 18, 2007

Comments:

DEA can fire on ALE said...
ALE are tapping on the cellphone towers to listen on Persistence's wireless. They bugged the timeshare like Mos did without a court order. Periscopes are mounted on top of the high rises to watch the crew and operations. The Dutch spy satellite is tracking every inch of Persistence's movement. They are very unhappy about the clear sonar images. One image is of a drug submarine sunked by the coast guard. The other one image is the anchor and chain used to weight down a crab cage of a missing American's body. The crab cage is somewhere separated and sitting nearby. Persistence did not provide that image. It may be Natalee is inside the cage. This morning is super emotional and silent. John, Tim and Kyle are studying the closer snapshot of the crab cage. Something look like tennis shoes and a big knife inside. Some bones with some blue fabric around them. Most likely they belong to Natalee. The ALE are waiting for the warrant signed by judge Bob Witt to board Persistence and take over. However, the Persistence has the protection of the DEA helicopters. They can fire the hellfire missiles on the ALE boats. Aruba wants to make Persistence an international crisis to coverup it's cold case.

December 21, 2007 11:33:00 AM EST

http://arubanboycott.blogspot.com/2007/12/just-in-natalees-case-closed.html

 

[klaasend]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

[Lifesong]

ldstlou
Re: The Cage « Reply #157 on: March 19, 2009, 12:25:09 pm »

In November and December 2008 when I spoke to Kyle and he e-mailed Jug and I, he expressed to us, the same assessment of John Silvetti as he did in that March 18th documented post at SM, one of repsect and awe.

Kyle Kingman: I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.

http://goldmonkey.org/index.php?topic=980.msg12191#msg12191

Credit: Lifesong


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman - 03/20/08:  Since I got the go ahead from Tim (T), we can legally move forward. The document should follow-up the screen shots and trap content description. We can sent the document after the initial dialog. I trust then she (Beth) will be interested in the document.

The contents of the document should be discussed and agreed upon by the birds. Since I'm new here, I should take a back seat to this IMO. I would think it would be a case synthesis which culminates with the trap contents and lack of interest and motivation to fully process the site. Perhaps Beth will then use the document to create the proper motivation using the information to apply political pressure from both sides. The problem I ran into earlier with the FBI was that their hands are tied to do anything unless they're invited to the party. I think political pressure properly applied will ensure an invite to the party. Thoughts?

Title - perhaps "Case Synthesis and Search Results", or something to that effect.

Credit: Jen

Great job, Janet!


Here's one for you:

Per ldstlou:  Kyle said:  "I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received.  They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap."

Per Kyle's own post:  "If you quote me, please include the quote for accuracy.  I never said there were no human remains.  I woudn't comment to that effect.  I have neither confirmed nor denied the issue.  The only comment I said was quoting Tim Trahan."

Per Kyle's own post:  "I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains.  It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??"

Per Kyle's own post:  "The question over whether or not the FBI has human remains or not is not answerable at this point.  They are not commenting on the case.  They only commented on the fabric sample and that it's not a match to Natalee's blouse.  However, the impression I took away was based on a conversation with someone who told me there were remains, which left me rather suprised to hear from him. But, it's possible that in conversation he confused remains vs. DNA.  Honestly, I was under the impression that if there was DNA, there was remains and so I agreed with him."


I never realized until now that it was Tim Trahan that told Kyle there were remains in the trap...

[Lifesong]

Wanted to have a screen capture.  They must have had some inside information to know about Dateline right?  Or did we already know about Dateline by December 4?



Note:  the "tippster" is saying SOUTH shore which would be closer to the refinery

The trap wasn't 11 miles out either....

[2NJSons_Mom]

Kyle Kingman has updated his linkedin site. 

(snipped)

Kyle Kingman’s Summary
I graduated from Rutgers University with a Masters in Marine Geology/Oceanography, Masters in Engineering Geophysics, and BS in Geology. I began consulting while in grad school for the offshore industry focusing on hydrographic survey and shallow geophysics. My experience since then has taken me around the globe with strong emphasis in most of the major offshore industry geographical arenas including the: Gulf of Mexico, North Sea, Persian Gulf, Mediterranean, Caribbean, Arabian Sea, Pacific, Atlantic, Arctic....etc, also spanning major sectors of offshore industry including: Submarine telecommunications, submarine power transmission, pipelines, LNG facilities, offshore wind and alternative energy, shipwrecks, and even finding missing persons.

I am currently self employed and spend most of my time involved in project management roles, consulting, data acquisition and QC offshore, and processing, analysis, and reporting onshore both abroad and from my home office.

My aim is to provide clients with a superior product by combining innovation and technology and time-tested and proven methods, with excellence and integrity.


More here:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464