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Author Topic: Sandra Cantu #4 4/27/09 -  (Read 383547 times)
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JessStar
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« Reply #380 on: May 13, 2009, 02:21:15 PM »


Am just wondering, how is the average person surfing the web supposed to know which to believe and which to take with a grain of salt . . . I realize it likely does boil down to the credibility of the one reporting.  But how are we to know?  Or is it about past experiences with that person or agency? 


Wyks, you raise some very good questions.  I will try to answer them in a more detailed response in the next few days because I'm really pressed for time right now and the questions are very complex and require consideration of a number of factors, some of which are objective, some of which are subjective.  In short, while reputation, credibility, general acceptance in the community, general acceptance in the industry, saturation, organization, motivation, timing, interest, medium, location(s), presence, qualifications, logic, citation, and disclosure are all very important factors, it is equally important to dissect the language used to make a particular "factual" assertion.  Specific words are chosen for specific reasons, whether consciously or not.  And when you read hedging words, especially hedging words without disclosure, run, because 9 times out of 10, or more likely 99 times out of 100, the factual assertion isn't worth the code used to write it (isn't that funny?  we used to say the paper it was written on!).  Most people approach such "news" stories with an emotional ear and tend to react emotionally because they assume they are what they purport to be--true news stories.  We're programmed to accept what the media tells us and that's unfortunate.  Few people approach news stories with their logical ear that asks "Why should I believe this" because, quite frankly, the typical person doesn't care.  They don't have the time to care.  They're just interested in the news. 

And why should you believe me?  Because I'll give you a citation, that's why!     Think of the 1938 radio broadcast of War of the Worlds.  Regardless of how ridiculous and illogical that was, people still bought into it and panicked thinking there was an actual martian invasion in progress because, after all, the media was reporting it as news.  Few stopped to ask the question "Why should I believe this?"  Had they asked that question, they would have learned that the program was hosted by Orson Welles whose motivation in reporting the martian invasion was to increase his listeners by stealing listeners away from his rival, Chase & Sanborn Hour.  In short, he needed to report something sensational.  Whether it was true or not, or how people would react to it, just didn't matter.  http://history1900s.about.com/od/1930s/a/warofworlds.htm



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Wyks
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« Reply #381 on: May 13, 2009, 02:26:58 PM »

Morning lonemonkey, and thanks!   

It IS frustrating when a gag order is placed and with it goes any chance of finding anything out before trial.  And yet.. it's understandable, for both sides.  Just frustrating.  Cuz trial could be a year or two down the road, and we still have to wait til after that. 

And yeppers, wish every state would do as Florida does, with their Sunshine Law.  We've been very spoiled ya know, in some of the cases occuring there, with all that has been released.  Am thinking that in Caylee's case, we know wayyyyyyy more than we ever needed to know.  Yet some of us still have even more questions.   
 
To go from that case, to this one, where there is nothing but a bunch of zipped lips, is beyond frustrating!  Even before the gag order went into effect, LE was being very tight-lipped about everything.  I don't want it to become a circus either.  Gosh, isn't there a happy middle ground? 

I agree Wyks!
And it just seems like if we could have some crumbs of info...it might be better than people speculating and then rumors running rampant...

What's to do if no one can set the record straight.
And saying that it would be too inflammatory to release Sandra's cause of death ...etcc....just makes some peoples imaginations run off with them...
It seems like a little info...would help strike a happy medium.
Just my thoughts!
  LM

It sure would be better, Lonemonkey!  And I agree, putting out a statement such as they did, then shutting up, did nothing but cause more speculation.  Guess they are in a hard place, danged if they do danged if they don't.  But still..... lol 
 
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Wyks
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« Reply #382 on: May 13, 2009, 02:44:00 PM »

JessStar, thank you for that thoughtful reply!  I appreciate your response, especially cuz I know you are so busy.    

Makes sense what you said, and does explain it for me.  Thanks! 

Wonder if 'back in the good ole days' we could actually trust the 'news' as credible cuz it was.. or has nothing changed except that we have finally opened our ears and really listen to what they are saying, not willing to take whatever at face value. 

This part of what you said really hits home with me, and is very true!  "And when you read hedging words, especially hedging words without disclosure, run, because 9 times out of 10, or more likely 99 times out of 100, the factual assertion isn't worth the code used to write it (isn't that funny?  we used to say the paper it was written on!)". 

And yes... funny!   

Thanks again, JessStar! 
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JessStar
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« Reply #383 on: May 13, 2009, 03:47:49 PM »

Morning lonemonkey, and thanks!   

It IS frustrating when a gag order is placed and with it goes any chance of finding anything out before trial.  And yet.. it's understandable, for both sides.  Just frustrating.  Cuz trial could be a year or two down the road, and we still have to wait til after that. 

And yeppers, wish every state would do as Florida does, with their Sunshine Law.  We've been very spoiled ya know, in some of the cases occuring there, with all that has been released.  Am thinking that in Caylee's case, we know wayyyyyyy more than we ever needed to know.  Yet some of us still have even more questions.   
 
To go from that case, to this one, where there is nothing but a bunch of zipped lips, is beyond frustrating!  Even before the gag order went into effect, LE was being very tight-lipped about everything.  I don't want it to become a circus either.  Gosh, isn't there a happy middle ground? 

I agree Wyks!
And it just seems like if we could have some crumbs of info...it might be better than people speculating and then rumors running rampant...

What's to do if no one can set the record straight.
And saying that it would be too inflammatory to release Sandra's cause of death ...etcc....just makes some peoples imaginations run off with them...
It seems like a little info...would help strike a happy medium.
Just my thoughts!
  LM

It sure would be better, Lonemonkey!  And I agree, putting out a statement such as they did, then shutting up, did nothing but cause more speculation.  Guess they are in a hard place, danged if they do danged if they don't.  But still..... lol 
 

I agree that it is very frustrating.  Here's my take, though, for what it's worth.  And again, this is just drawing on my experiences.  Having been involved in "secret" proceedings before, I can tell you that a little info is much much worse to the rumor mill and our creative imaginations than having no information at all.  BNO was trying to capitalize on that principle when it released its purported "breaking news story."

I can also tell you this--for the prosecution to oppose the motion to disinter, the defense's motion must have been 100% factually without merit (which is also supported by the fact that they voluntarily dropped it).  Why?  Because it would have been a terrible lapse in judgment to create an appealable issue (and one which may even be irreversible) this early on in the case.  It would have given the defense leverage when, truth be told, it currently has none with one exception--the purported "rarity" of this crime. And that's more of a poker type argument than anything of real substance.

Ok, I'll get to my point.  Sometimes I'm long winded.   

In order to make its point, the prosecution likely strenuously argued the facts contained in the autopsy report to show the Court just how ridiculous the defense motion really was.  It was likely very graphic--apologetically graphic I should say.  That, in and of itself, would have been too much for most people to hear.  We all have a burning curiosity to know.  But the prosecutor doesn't look at it that way--he looks as it as being his job to protect the interests of the People of the State of California and, more pointedly, Sandra and her family. So he writes his motions and briefs to win without regard to whether they are using sensitive language or will be "well accepted" by the public.

Additionally, an autopsy report contains much more information than simply the cause of death.  This is especially so in a case like this where the cause of death is just one reason for performing it--the medical examiner was also asked to look for evidence of other crimes.  I cringe when I say this, but autopsies are incredibly invasive, and an autopsy report describes the process blow by blow and the findings in intricate detail.  They describe the remains from the minute they are found until the process is complete.  Again, without regard to how the general public might receive it.  I was involved in a case many years ago where a small child was shaken to death.  The defense argued the child fell and hit her head.  The autopsy report showed the child died from being violently shaken.  To this day, I wish I had never read that report or saw the pictures.  They were horrifying.  Given the contents of an autopsy report, and knowing the process as I do, there is no doubt in my mind that the very fact the subject of this autopsy report was a small child is enough to create extreme public outrage.

Now, I know what you are going to say--they could at least give us a little information, like the cause of death.  But the Court system has no incentive to do that because its purpose isn't to quell the curiosity of the public by parsing out information and reporting it.  On the contrary, it has every incentive not to release the information in this case because (a) the information would have the potential for tainting the jury pool in a very high-profile case;  (b) it would lead to a media circus;  (c) it would devastate Sandra's family; (d) it, in and of itself, might create public outrage if the COD is overdose, espcially now that we know about the January drugging incident; (e) it would lead to a potential slippery slope by inviting motions to lift the gag order, (f) it could jeopardize an ongoing investigation (even a "unrelated" ongoing investigation); and (g) perhaps most humanely, it would be just plain invasive to the rights of this little child victim to be remembered as the beautful, spunky little girl that she was.

JMHO


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« Reply #384 on: May 13, 2009, 04:48:31 PM »

I'm so glad I didn't post that article from that newsite I had never heard of before. My daughter told me about it and thought the people on this forum would be interested in reading that. After I looked at it, I thought I better not, and would wait to see if this was reputable. I see it was not. It seemed very strange to me that Sandra's father would be saying those things  Thanks for all the info and that list you made Wyks, and to you JessStar for your legal knowledge. I haven't been posting a lot on this thread, but I do keep tabs on what is happening. Could someone tell me when Melissa is due back in the court room again, is it the end of the month? Thanks.
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JessStar
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« Reply #385 on: May 13, 2009, 04:51:33 PM »

I'm so glad I didn't post that article from that newsite I had never heard of before. My daughter told me about it and thought the people on this forum would be interested in reading that. After I looked at it, I thought I better not, and would wait to see if this was reputable. I see it was not. It seemed very strange to me that Sandra's father would be saying those things  Thanks for all the info and that list you made Wyks, and to you JessStar for your legal knowledge. I haven't been posting a lot on this thread, but I do keep tabs on what is happening. Could someone tell me when Melissa is due back in the court room again, is it the end of the month? Thanks.

MAY 22 at 1:00 pm.
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JessStar
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« Reply #386 on: May 13, 2009, 05:01:24 PM »

Tracygirl, or others from NoCal, has there been an uptick in the number of child porn arrests in your area, or is this the norm?  Another was reported today:

Music Teacher Arrested For Possessing Child Porn
STOCKTON (CBS13) ― 

A Stockton elementary school music teacher has been arrested for possession of child pornography.

Stockton Police arrested 48-year-old Harold Willenborg this morning.  Police say they started investigating Willenborg on Sunday. 

Police served a search warrant at Willenborg's house this morning in the 5600 Block of Vintage Circle, and he was arrested and booked into the San Joaquin County Jail.

Willenborg has been a music teacher for Elmwood Elementary School in the Stockton Unified School District for 8 years.  The school's website has pictures of Willenborg with a number of students as he plays a variety of instruments from violin, to flute, to xylophone.

Police say they do not believe there is any association between the child pornography charges and the school.




http://cbs13.com/breakingnews/stockton.child.pornography.2.1008811.html

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« Reply #387 on: May 13, 2009, 05:36:43 PM »

JessStar, unfortunatly whatever is happening (hopefully something is happening!) I think maybe happening away from the publics eye. I have not heard of one arrest of the infamous Tracy 60 since the softball coach in Feb. I would assume I would  read it somewhere.

Glad they got this music teacher. Scumbag!  They said they had been investigating him since sunday? Sheesh, maybe I should move to stockton?
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JessStar
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« Reply #388 on: May 13, 2009, 07:06:41 PM »

JessStar, unfortunatly whatever is happening (hopefully something is happening!) I think maybe happening away from the publics eye. I have not heard of one arrest of the infamous Tracy 60 since the softball coach in Feb. I would assume I would  read it somewhere.

Glad they got this music teacher. Scumbag!  They said they had been investigating him since sunday? Sheesh, maybe I should move to stockton?

Yeah, that was pretty quick. I was shocked.  Must be an airtight case.  I didn't realize the softball coach was T60.  Hopefully he's singing like a bird.
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« Reply #389 on: May 13, 2009, 07:13:14 PM »

when they arrested him they said they had been investing him along with about 60 others in Tracy for sharing and downloading child porn.
The Sub teacher, i don't know if he was a part of it, he was arrested because some very intuned children told their parents he made them uncomfortable, those parents told he principal and then she/he called police. Turns out, he had worked in schools all around Tracy, San Jose and Los Angeles. 
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« Reply #390 on: May 13, 2009, 10:51:05 PM »

JessStar, unfortunatly whatever is happening (hopefully something is happening!) I think maybe happening away from the publics eye. I have not heard of one arrest of the infamous Tracy 60 since the softball coach in Feb. I would assume I would  read it somewhere.

Glad they got this music teacher. Scumbag!  They said they had been investigating him since sunday? Sheesh, maybe I should move to stockton?

Yeah, that was pretty quick. I was shocked.  Must be an airtight case.  I didn't realize the softball coach was T60.  Hopefully he's singing like a bird.

Jess,  May I ask you a personal question?  If you chose not to answer it, I understand.  Are you a Prosecutor, or asst. Prosecutor or Asst. DA?  The reason I ask, is you talk, and write like my daughter, and she is an Asst. DA.   She has tried child molestation cases, as well as Drug and Alcohol related traffic deaths.  Just my own curiosity. 
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« Reply #391 on: May 14, 2009, 09:33:37 AM »

WILLIAMS, JOHNNY 
Aliases   WILLIAMS, JOHN FRANK
WILLIAMS, JOHN FRANKLIN
FITZGARLD, JOHN
FITZGERALD, JAMES
GOLDIE, AKA WILLIAMS
WILLIAMS, JOHNNY FRANK
CURRIE, JOHNNIE
CURRIE, JOHN
WILLIAMS, JOHNNIE FRANK

X-2720560 
Booking/Registry Number   09394562   
Date of Birth   06/22/55 
Sex   Male   
Height   6'00"   
Weight   180 lbs.   
Visits used this week   0 visits used this week. Main Jail Visitation Information   
Facility   Sacramento County Main Jail (Facility Information)   
Housing Location   8E205A   
Mailing Address   WILLIAMS, JOHNNY X-2720560 8E205A
Sacramento County Main Jail
651 "I" Street
Sacramento, CA 95814 

05/13/09 at 02:27 PM   
Arresting Agency   BOARD OF PRISON TERMS 
Type of Arrest   Parole Hold   
Charges/Bail   Case# Pending/NA(01) - Parole Hold 
PC 3056     
VIOLATION OF PAROLE
Bail: No Bail
 
Total Bail   Ineligible for Bail   
Outstanding Warrants    Unknown

I have seen some of these alias's before- anyone?
B
 
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Tracygirl
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« Reply #392 on: May 14, 2009, 11:05:08 AM »

child porn found at the MHP

http://www.kcra.com/news/19455422/detail.html
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JessStar
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« Reply #393 on: May 14, 2009, 11:07:15 AM »

JessStar, unfortunatly whatever is happening (hopefully something is happening!) I think maybe happening away from the publics eye. I have not heard of one arrest of the infamous Tracy 60 since the softball coach in Feb. I would assume I would  read it somewhere.

Glad they got this music teacher. Scumbag!  They said they had been investigating him since sunday? Sheesh, maybe I should move to stockton?

Yeah, that was pretty quick. I was shocked.  Must be an airtight case.  I didn't realize the softball coach was T60.  Hopefully he's singing like a bird.

Jess,  May I ask you a personal question?  If you chose not to answer it, I understand.  Are you a Prosecutor, or asst. Prosecutor or Asst. DA?  The reason I ask, is you talk, and write like my daughter, and she is an Asst. DA.   She has tried child molestation cases, as well as Drug and Alcohol related traffic deaths.  Just my own curiosity. 

AZ, unfortunately, I am prohibited from giving you a direct answer to your question.  About all I can say is that I've been an attorney in active practice in several states since the early 1990's, have been involved in just about every aspect of judicial system (from the point of being an advocate, not a judge), and am very familiar with the workings of the legal system, both civil and criminal. While your daughter will probably agree with the phrase "never say never," I think it's safe to say, though, that I never have, and never will, defend a case involving a crime against a child.
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« Reply #394 on: May 14, 2009, 11:14:16 AM »


Surprise, surprise. . . 
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« Reply #395 on: May 14, 2009, 11:36:38 AM »

JessStar, thank you for that thoughtful reply!  I appreciate your response, especially cuz I know you are so busy.    

Makes sense what you said, and does explain it for me.  Thanks! 

Wonder if 'back in the good ole days' we could actually trust the 'news' as credible cuz it was.. or has nothing changed except that we have finally opened our ears and really listen to what they are saying, not willing to take whatever at face value. 

This part of what you said really hits home with me, and is very true!  "And when you read hedging words, especially hedging words without disclosure, run, because 9 times out of 10, or more likely 99 times out of 100, the factual assertion isn't worth the code used to write it (isn't that funny?  we used to say the paper it was written on!)". 

And yes... funny!   

Thanks again, JessStar! 
Mornin' MOnks!!!
Wyks
This was really enlightening from Jess' post!  That quote really jumped out at me as well.
That was an AWESOME explanation!
  LM
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« Reply #396 on: May 14, 2009, 11:42:24 AM »


As usual JessMonkey
You are ON IT!!!!!
Whoa....
Here we GO.------>
Snipped:
Bolded by me
"There were other trailers in the trailer park where child pornography was found, and it was a challenging environment," a source close to the investigation told KCRA 3.

Challenging in what way???
Ohhhh Blinnnnnk!
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JessStar
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« Reply #397 on: May 14, 2009, 12:23:01 PM »

Thanks for the kind words, LM.  I'm glad you find my posts helpful. 

All of us have been working very, very hard on this case and other cases.  Every one of us who has spent any amount of time working through this deserves to be commended for their work.  It's intellectually challenging on one side, but extremely emotionally challenging on the other.  So I'm sure there are other things we could be doing in our spare time, but we choose to spend it trying to address and solve an issue that should be of paramount importance above all other issues.  With all the energy, intellect, insight, etc. this group shows, I'm confident that we'll get there.  And someday, somewhere, I'd like to buy you all a drink. . .
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« Reply #398 on: May 14, 2009, 12:40:39 PM »

First, thanks JessStar for the date of Melissa's next court appearance. Thank-you Tracygirl for this article, not surprising. What does this exactly mean? ( There were other trailers in the trailer park where child pornography was found, and it was a challenging environment," a source close to the investigation told KCRA 3.  What do they mean by a challenging environment? 
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« Reply #399 on: May 14, 2009, 01:15:13 PM »


As usual Tracy & Jess Monkeys
You are ON IT!!!!!
Whoa....
Here we GO.------>
Snipped:
Bolded by me
"There were other trailers in the trailer park where child pornography was found, and it was a challenging environment," a source close to the investigation told KCRA 3.

Challenging in what way???
Ohhhh Blinnnnnk!
...lol...
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